Quoting Roswitha:

More than half of the women in Turkey aged between 25 and 29 do not work, a recent survey by the Turkish Confederation of Employers´ Unions (TİSK) has revealed, and as many as 60 percent of women aged between 15 and 29 do not attend school.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=95819

Quoting Roswitha:

More than half of the women in Turkey aged between 25 and 29 do not work, a recent survey by the Turkish Confederation of Employers´ Unions (TİSK) has revealed, and as many as 60 percent of women aged between 15 and 29 do not attend school.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=95819

Quoting Roswitha:

Ayhan, bravo!!

Quoting Cacık:

A good post Marion, but I do think also that there are some girls out there working their fingers to the bone because the village men won´t ! Maybe not huge amounts but it does happen.

When you drive through many villages, you see it, young and old women in the fields, in groups by the side of the road waiting to be collected to be taken to the fields, and in many cases the menfolk stand around watching and smoking their cigarettes, while they are bent over double working. It amazes me how many people smoke who have no money to feed their children.

What is needed is education in these places, education among the male societies but it is a huge job to try to change something which has been present in their culture for centuries.

Although fundementally I agree with you, that the post itself indicates that Turkish women are lazy and this is not true, I also feel that they work too hard because many men won´t.

And my comments really can´t pertain to the Istanbul way of life, because it is totally different here.[/QUOTE



you say its hard to change centuries of culture but i feel that this is wierd to especially to turkish people i would persume this type of thing happened in your past like kamal ataturk he actually literally changed CENTURIES of traditions he taught u guys a new alphabet

about the girls working in fields we have a lot of the same problem here in egypt in the rural areas especially that cotton is one of egypts biggest exports anyway i hope that this problem in turkey and egypt and all the other countries that face the same problem is solved

Quoting longinotti1:

There is a expression in America.

There are Liers,

Damn liers

and below them STATISTIANS.

Examine this statement. this is based in union membership!

In America, you can measure employment by whose based on tax returns. Ok. I need few minutes to stop laughing.

Quoting MrX67:

accepting defects is a virtue,but by being objective&neutral.So i think noone of country or culture all pure or excellent

Quoting alameda:

Quoting Elisabeth:

alameda, does it really matter why these woman are at home? It is one thing to be at home because you choose it, but what is the reason for no education?

Quoting alameda:

Quoting thehandsom:

Alameda,
You are simply ignoring the fact that they are women and they are not being utilized as a work force for the country. Can you show me any developed country which do NOT utilize women as work force? If we are saying women and men are equal (or we say that in theory it should be), then why is it that women should not work?

Quoting thehandsom:

About the stats: why is it the case?
Because it is simply these patriarch/primitive ideas :
-women should stay at home and look after the children

Quoting thehandsom:

-it is better for the men that if the wife sits at home so that they can feel comfortable (because if the women work she will interact with the other men so they will feel jealous)

And are those women happy happy with their situation?
A huge NO..Hell NO!!

Quoting thehandsom:

Who on earth will accept willingly spending their lives as if they are in house arrest? How many of those women do you think getting education at home? what education is that?

Quoting thehandsom:

Stop trying to find excuses to some of the primitivenesses of my country.
We have have to change these thing and they will change!!

Quoting alameda:

Oh Handsom, you are so naive. I´m sure there will change, it´s the nature of things. I am concerned it seems you have swallowed the whole the, "you are primitive, do what we do" propaganda. Open your eyes to the actual beauties and good things in your country, and please stop just blindly parroting others who really are not as interested in the well being of Turkey as you so naively think.

Women are not men, they are different. Here we are begining to find other ways to to do things. Women don´t best fit into the male work modes. Look for new ways to utilize the talents of your women, rather than trying to fit them into the male work mold.

Quoting alameda:

Quoting catwoman:

Alameda, your post is so condescending to millions of women who WANT to fit in the work place yet are discriminated against. It is disrespectful to women who paved the way for us to be able to choose whether we want to have careers and be independent and to not be at a mercy of men. You are also disrespectful to the women who are still fighting for equal treatment and independence! It is appalling what you said!

SPEAK ONLY FOR YOURSELF, OK? YOUR VIEWS ARE PRIMITIVE AND SEXIST. IF YOU WANT TO STAY AT HOME, NOONE IS FORBIDDING YOU, BUT SOME WOMEN HAVE OTHER AMBITIONS, OK? RESPECT THAT!

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

It is crap like this which keeps me away more often than not lately. There is no point arguing with such an antiquitity as you! I don´t know how old you are, but I do hope your views die out with your generation.

Quoting alameda:

add perspective, you know?

Quoting girleegirl:

Perspective? What you have done is what you always do. Assume that your view is omnipotent above all others. You told handsom that he is not a free thinking individual….only a follower who swallows propaganda??? Where the hell do you get off?
Your way of thinking is what sets women backwards. Who are you to say women don’t fit into men’s work modes? Your arrogance is boundless!!!
If YOU have paved the way for women, I will take a different road!!!!!

Quoting alameda:

Ah girleegirl, joining in the pack again! When have you ever posted an original idea, added substance to a conversation? You think that sets women backwards? It would be nice if you would be a more thoughtful reader and actually read what I write, rather than just joining in the pack.

Your choice of words shows your deep thought in the matter.

As for me saying women don´t fit in to mens work modes, I believe that´s scientific research that has shown women and men are different, otherwise there would be only one sex, you know? What I do propose is finding, looking into what makes females unique and different, and then utilizing that knowledge.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting alameda:

Welcome back Trudy,

I sorry if I hurt your feelings, I didn´t realize it was me who drove you away in November.

Quoting KeithL:

I have to admit that I am more of a traditionalist here. Children are better off when they have a parent at home. Since women give birth, it is only natural that it is the mother who stays home. I attribute many problems of western society to "daycare kids". I also understand that some families have no choice and need the money. That said, I completey respect that all women deserve the choice of whether to stay home or work.
I just saw recently that women in the US still only make $0.77 for every $1.00 a man makes for the same job.
So it is not just Turkey that women suffer professional inequity...

Quoting Elisabeth:

I was lucky enough to have extended family to stay with my son, so no daycare was needed. I can´t tell you what my choice would have been if I didn´t have that option. My feeling is that I probably would have chosen career over having a family. I can´t say I am crazy about the idea of daycare either, although that is my personal feeling. I know there is plenty of research that says daycare children do just fine.

Women are still struggling to reach workplace equality....you are definately right. But I think they are still struggling because many of us have to choose between working extra hours to get ahead or go home and take care of family, cook dinner....that kind of thing. What are your thoughts?

Quoting alameda:

I remember blah blah...

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

.....hmmm....John Boy?

Or....oh god.....Jim Bob?

Quoting KeithL:

...but it is never the Walton girls who have babies without father´s and depend on government handouts only to then raise children without morals, self asteem or work ethic.
We could a few more Mary Ellen´s....
She was hot in her own way too!!!

Quoting KeithL:

I think attacking women who stay home with their kids and sacrafice their careers is just as wrong as the exploitation of women in the worforce or in the sex trades.
Using the Waltons as an example I just dont understand. By western standards, they were the ultimate nuclear family.
I actually would be proud to be compared to a family structure such as the Waltons.

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting KeithL:

I think attacking women who stay home with their kids and sacrafice their careers is just as wrong as the exploitation of women in the worforce or in the sex trades.
Using the Waltons as an example I just dont understand. By western standards, they were the ultimate nuclear family.
I actually would be proud to be compared to a family structure such as the Waltons.

Quoting KeithL:

read my posts. I have always said women have the right for self determination of their lives. But really, I think your put down of Alemeda using the walton´s example shows some contempt for women that choose to stay home and raise their children. I can only speak for myself, but I think most men who can financially afford it would want to marry a woman with "Walton´s ethics".
Alemeda shared a story of her upbringing. Did it need to be belittled???

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

What is your opinion on all the wealthy in this world Keith? They present a wonderful picture of the "nuclear family" you worship and yet farm their children out to nannies and often boarding schools.

Is this acceptable only because they do not use government money?

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting mylo:

Hey I love both the Walton´s and Porn but not together what´s going on?

Quoting mylo:

Hey I love both the Walton´s and Porn but not together what´s going on?

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting Trudy:

The first words I find hypocrite. I predicted to someone here who knows your posts that you wouldn´t understand. Well, I know now who things says and how to judge these words (on a scale from 1-10 about around 1+). Anyway, in your perspective I´m absolutely not interested. As GG said: you´re arrogant and you think (as we say in Dutch) you have the right at your side. And as you may have noticed there are many here in this or other topics that find your views old fashioned, sexist and humiliating for women. But, of course, that you won´t understand as well!

P.S. Thanks for the link about the word ´perspective´, it´s clear you can´t see other members as adults, wise enough to know or find several definitions of a word themselves. So therefor a compliment for something you are good in: patronising people.

Quoting KeithL:

I think attacking women who stay home with their kids and sacrafice their careers is just as wrong as the exploitation of women in the worforce or in the sex trades.

Quoting thehandsom:

About the stats: why is it the case?
Because it is simply these patriarch/primitive ideas :
-women should stay at home and look after the children
-it is better for the men that if the wife sits at home so that they can feel comfortable (because if the women work she will interact with the other men so they will feel jealous)

And are those women happy happy with their situation?
A huge NO..Hell NO!!
Who on earth will accept willingly spending their lives as if they are in house arrest?

How many of those women do you think getting education at home? what education is that?
why are you mixing the education up there...Education prepares young people for life.
Any form of education is better than non education at all..
Stop trying to find excuses to some of the primitivenesses of my country.
We have have to change these thing and they will change!!

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting mylo: Hey I love both the Walton´s and Porn but not together what´s going on? I guess Walton´s Porn would be completely wrong???

Quoting Elisabeth:

Damn....now my mind is filled with smut! My favorite show, tarnished forever!!!

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea: Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting mylo: Hey I love both the Walton´s and Porn but not together what´s going on? I guess Walton´s Porn would be completely wrong??? I am SURE it already exists!

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Mylo you spiv! Can you get hold of the rare un-cut Partridge Family?

Quoting mylo:

Hey I have Little House on the prairie, the ´uncut version´ can send if you like?

Quoting mylo:

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting mylo:

Quoting KeithL: Quoting mylo: Hey I have Little House on the prairie, the ´uncut version´ can send if you like? Yes, now you know the real reason Mary went blind!!![/QUOTE It was acid I tell´s ya acid not my seedy copy

Quoting Roswitha:

I never realized that it would come to that:

Quoting Elisabeth:

Ros...there is no telling what road these posts will lead us down.

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

excuse me but since when did women have babies without them?!

Quoting libralady:

Quoting alameda:

..nill!!!

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting alameda:

Well did you get your frustration out now handsom? Do you feel better? Do you feel more manly now insulting me in this way? You have no idea of what I´ve seen or what I know. I´m sure your sycophants will cheer you on.

If you want to talk about your mother and the women in your family and village, talk about them, instead of abstracts. If you talk in the abstract, I reply in the abstract (from what I know, which you do not know.)

I believe the purpose of a discussion is to come to some sort of understanding. Insulting, demeaning and abusive behavior does not help.

Quoting thehandsom:

Alameda..
I think you dont really know what you are talking here..
But let me tell you what I was talking about:
I was talking about the women who never had your type of up bringing here.. I was talking about women their life almost entirely spent in their home and the streets they live..
I was talking about the women who never had a chance or financial luxuries you had.
Those women some times live like a cattle..
Those women were never asked what they think. Those women wait for their husbands´ good time to ask for money.
Those women sometimes sulk to their husbands in order to let them buy some new clothes from cheap shops.
The women I am talking about were never asked if they wanted to work or if they wanted to stay at home..
They are assumed to stay at home by ´default´..
They are the prisoners in their home..
Have you ever spent your years in your home ONLY alameda? Have you tried it?
If you have, you must have noticed how brain dead you get in a couple of years..

And and..Do you know that one of these women I know very closely is my mother? and I know my mother Alameda..
I was talking about her here too..

And you dare to lecture me about the women like my mom..eh?

How shallow you are!!

And you are lecturing me about beauties of my country?
How dare you?
You know nothing about my countries beauties.
You are blinded by your belief which is partly/mostly to blame about those women´s wasted lives.

Guess what? you KNOW nothing about these women either..
You are a disgrace to the women I am talking about.

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

You and Alameda are glamourising "middle class values" which never existed in the lower and upper classes and were a hypocracy. Your middle class values bred back street abortionists, complete ostricising of family members and putting "what people think" before your own family.

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

You and Alameda are glamourising "middle class values" which never existed in the lower and upper classes and were a hypocracy. Your middle class values bred back street abortionists, complete ostricising of family members and putting "what people think" before your own family.

Quoting thehandsom:

Look, there is a simple logic here:
If a woman does not work she wont be as independant as a man.
if a man desire a type of woman who will be a house wife only, he is not strong enough handle the other type of woman and not prepared for the equality.

Quoting alameda:

Well did you get your frustration out now handsom? Do you feel better? Do you feel more manly now insulting me in this way? You have no idea of what I´ve seen or what I know. I´m sure your sycophants will cheer you on.

If you want to talk about your mother and the women in your family and village, talk about them, instead of abstracts. If you talk in the abstract, I reply in the abstract (from what I know, which you do not know.)

I believe the purpose of a discussion is to come to some sort of understanding. Insulting, demeaning and abusive behavior does not help.

No place in any of my comments did I claim women did not have the right to their own funds, education or the right to work. You evidently read things I did not write into what I wrote.

Quoting pansi:

the fact is that turkish women and average american or europian women are DİFFERENT.we cannot except the way how they live and think with our own experience and try to heal society with - "you need to live like i think because it is better".always will be women who will want work and always will be who will want spent time at home.there is also many things what seems strange for me, but for this society it is normal - as sitting at home and asking money from husband, as growing their kids at home not leaving them to stranger care,as role distribution in family.

Quoting girleegirl:

Calling it normal does not make it right. In ancient times gladiators were thrown into an arena and forced to fight to the death…..would that still be acceptable in these days? No! Times change….unfortunately, women’s rights is one of the areas in which it is still creeping along and you know why? Because men still hold the balance of power and because some women think its ok because its “normal”.

Quoting pansi:

why woman who drive with car after accident ask man to fix it?
i am not talking about rights but about understanding - in different times and different countries are different understanding about things.it was in history different and now it is different.İ am not calling normal so many things in nova days - such popindustry with teenage stars,who is popularize parties and one night stands, drugs,violence in tv,teenage alcoholism, animal killing just for new clothes ,running to get more money for buying things what we actually dont need, just to be equialent with our neighboud and friends, etc. but they are part of modern society.then why to call society who are living like this so many centuries wrong?they understanding are different and they are not complaining.İ cannot agree with all things what happening in Turkey but i can accept that they are living like this and i dont have any rigths to change them.

Quoting girleegirl:

I really have no clue what you are trying to say with your stereotypical “car accident” comment and your treatise on the pop industry but according to your way of thinking the people of the world should turn a blind eye to human rights issues because we just need to understand differences in culture? Sorry, that’s just wrong.

Quoting pansi:

i meant that women are brave and on the same level when everyhting is perfect but in the end they still need men advice.

Quote:

do you really think that if sending women who doesnt have any work experience and knowledge to work will heal society and make them more statisfied about their life?

Quoting mltm:

I´m not on any side. Rather I want to show you the dilemma.

The main drawback for woman in the modern world is giving birth to a child, being mother.
The woman´s body has been designed to be a mother, to care for the children, not just uterus, but with all the motherhood hormones. So, I find the claim that a father can equally raise up a child a bit weak.
The mother-to-be cannot do the same job when she gets pregnant. Forexample, me, I won´t be able to work in the chemistry lab if I get pregnant. So, maybe I have to change all my career plans, I won´t be considered for some projects, I´ll be discriminated.
Or, you cannot do the same heavy job, you cannot lift stuff etc that man can do either. And after you give birth, you need to rest. And you have to breastfeed your child, there are some who even advice to breastfeed till 3 years old. Can a man breastfeed?

Could you claim that a father can equally raise up a child till the age of 3-4 the way a mother raises up? It´s not about knowing how to cook and feed. The baby have developped in the mother´s womb, and he has special attachment to his mother.

So, in my opinion, it was not for nothing, if for thousands of years woman stayed at home and cared for the children. Now, the time has changed, and woman can work as well, and has to earn her own money, but before we attack the traditional opinions, we have to ask why it has been so, and what will be the consequences if we totally refuse the traditional family structure.

Quoting Daydreamer:

OHA! How about they need SPECIALIST´s advice not MEN´s! Men are not born with intrinsic knowledge of car mechanics. Can you please provide an example of women needing men´s advice in issues pertaining to male´s inborn abilities not learnt things? I don´t think so!


Could it be that´s why so many people here claim that women should get proper education? What´s the difference between an uneducated man and uneducated woman? They are both hard to expect to love their jobs...

Quoting mltm:

I´m not on any side. Rather I want to show you the dilemma.

The main drawback for woman in the modern world is giving birth to a child, being mother.
The woman´s body has been designed to be a mother, to care for the children, not just uterus, but with all the motherhood hormones. So, I find the claim that a father can equally raise up a child a bit weak.
The mother-to-be cannot do the same job when she gets pregnant. Forexample, me, I won´t be able to work in the chemistry lab if I get pregnant. So, maybe I have to change all my career plans, I won´t be considered for some projects, I´ll be discriminated.
Or, you cannot do the same heavy job, you cannot lift stuff etc that man can do either. And after you give birth, you need to rest. And you have to breastfeed your child, there are some who even advice to breastfeed till 3 years old. Can a man breastfeed?

Could you claim that a father can equally raise up a child till the age of 3-4 the way a mother raises up? It´s not about knowing how to cook and feed. The baby have developped in the mother´s womb, and he has special attachment to his mother.

So, in my opinion, it was not for nothing, if for thousands of years woman stayed at home and cared for the children. Now, the time has changed, and woman can work as well, and has to earn her own money, but before we attack the traditional opinions, we have to ask why it has been so, and what will be the consequences if we totally refuse the traditional family structure.

Quoting thehandsom:

You sound sexist and accepted the idea of ´men and women are not equal´..

Quoting mltm:

Quoting KeithL:

I think thehansome may also need to spend some time at "The Biology Class" Website.
Yes, whether you believe in God or not,(another choice that you are ridiculing by the way), men and women do have different bilogical and chemical makeups.

Quote:

Quoting KeithL:

So anyone who believes in God is simple-minded?

Quoting thehandsom:

Traditional values and all those blah blahs after that is pure hypocrisy ..Because leaving your job, breaking of your career, spending day after day, years after years at home trying to raise children is more difficult than occasional cooking..

Quoting Daydreamer:

From the start also, mankind was faced with genetic aberrations and illnesses. It doesn´t mean we aren´t trying to fight them these days. In the past Nazis claimed Jews were not equally human and we all have heard of racists´ arguments providing evidence that colour people are not equal too. That´s the way God, a Gigantic Fart from a Space Goat, Mother Nature or whatever you believe to be the origin of things created them. So why did people bother to fight against that? Why was it proven bullsh*t that colour or ethnicity constitute inequalities? Now if you believe men and women are not equal biologically (please notice I said equal not the same) do you believe black people should dance and play basketball rather than be managers? Do you believe that Jews make good pawn-shop owners?

Quoting KeithL:

I think thehansome may also need to spend some time at "The Biology Class" Website.
Yes, whether you believe in God or not,(another choice that you are ridiculing by the way), men and women do have different bilogical and chemical makeups.

Quoting mltm:

I´m not on any side. Rather I want to show you the dilemma.

The main drawback for woman in the modern world is giving birth to a child, being mother.
The woman´s body has been designed to be a mother, to care for the children, not just uterus, but with all the motherhood hormones. So, I find the claim that a father can equally raise up a child a bit weak.
The mother-to-be cannot do the same job when she gets pregnant. Forexample, me, I won´t be able to work in the chemistry lab if I get pregnant. So, maybe I have to change all my career plans, I won´t be considered for some projects, I´ll be discriminated.
Or, you cannot do the same heavy job, you cannot lift stuff etc that man can do either. And after you give birth, you need to rest. And you have to breastfeed your child, there are some who even advice to breastfeed till 3 years old. Can a man breastfeed?

Could you claim that a father can equally raise up a child till the age of 3-4 the way a mother raises up? It´s not about knowing how to cook and feed. The baby have developped in the mother´s womb, and he has special attachment to his mother.

So, in my opinion, it was not for nothing, if for thousands of years woman stayed at home and cared for the children. Now, the time has changed, and woman can work as well, and has to earn her own money, but before we attack the traditional opinions, we have to ask why it has been so, and what will be the consequences if we totally refuse the traditional family structure.

Quoting Daydreamer:

So why did people bother to fight against that? Why was it proven bullsh*t that colour or ethnicity constitute inequalities? Now if you believe men and women are not equal biologically (please notice I said equal not the same) do you believe black people should dance and play basketball rather than be managers? Do you believe that Jews make good pawn-shop owners?

Quoting mltm:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Quoting teaschip:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Actually thats a bit because of the Ottomans! At the war times, the Jews and other ethnic societies were not supposed to join army!! So all Ottomen died and all economy remaied to Jews etc...

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Quoting teaschip: Quoting SuiGeneris: Thats true!!! White Men Can´t Jump!!!! It is true! Black men make better basketball players and Jews make great jewerly shop owners. What´s wrong with that?

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea: Quoting SuiGeneris: Actually thats a bit because of the Ottomans! At the war times, the Jews and other ethnic societies were not supposed to join army!! So all Ottomen died and all economy remaied to Jews etc... This is the funniest thing I read in ages. Please tell me it is a joke!

Quoting teaschip:

Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting teaschip: Quoting SuiGeneris: Thats true!!! White Men Can´t Jump!!!! It is true! Black men make better basketball players and Jews make great jewerly shop owners. What´s wrong with that? Actually thats a bit because of the Ottomans! At the war times, the Jews and other ethnic societies were not supposed to join army!! So all Ottomen died and all economy remaied to Jews etc...

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Oh well!! nobody wants to remember where they came from after sometime right?

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

The thing is that remembering the past never means of racims canim... i just look what people do.. not where ARE they FROM ok?

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting teaschip:

Quoting mltm:

Indeed it´s true. Just he failed to explain it better.

Quoting mltm:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea: Quoting SuiGeneris: Actually thats a bit because of the Ottomans! At the war times, the Jews and other ethnic societies were not supposed to join army!! So all Ottomen died and all economy remaied to Jews etc... This is the funniest thing I read in ages. Please tell me it is a joke!

Quoting mltm:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting Daydreamer:

Really I have no idea if I should start laughing or crying reading the above posts. Women and men differ so they can´t work equally - what a load of nonsense - the only difference between sexes is reproductive system and, unless you want to work in a gay porn business or become a surrogate mother, there are no obstacles by the virtue of sex only! It is the upbringing that results in what you associate with differences. And a lot of people made lots of money on ideas similar to Alameda´s - guys who feel so threatened by the idea that women and men are equal and should have equal rights and choices have published tones on semi-scientific books that claim women are incapable of making their own decisions, can´t cope with stress as successfully as men etc. Too bad they made women believe in that. Is there a better proof of how to enslave women than to have women praising the slavery and calling it free choice?

Free choice means being able to decide - career/staying at home/both. Nobody looks down on women who decided to stay at home and raise children. It is the people that claim it is a better choice for a woman than to have a career that should be looked down upon. There are no better or worse choices, we have examples of well-raised children in all kinds of families - those with a working mother and those with a mother that stays at home. Also, we have lots of examples of things gone wrong in those two types of families.

Also, I don´t really understand the argument that it is the woman that should stay with children since she´s the one who bore them. What does one have to do with another? Both parents were at the conception, they are often both present at birth, at which point does it get obvious that women are predestined to bring up children?

I loved the point about the older generation dying together with their sexist and discriminatory ideas they were raised with. Hope my child will not have to listen to such nonsense.

Quoting mltm:

I´m not on any side. Rather I want to show you the dilemma.

The main drawback for woman in the modern world is giving birth to a child, being mother.
The woman´s body has been designed to be a mother, to care for the children, not just uterus, but with all the motherhood hormones. So, I find the claim that a father can equally raise up a child a bit weak.
The mother-to-be cannot do the same job when she gets pregnant. Forexample, me, I won´t be able to work in the chemistry lab if I get pregnant. So, maybe I have to change all my career plans, I won´t be considered for some projects, I´ll be discriminated.
Or, you cannot do the same heavy job, you cannot lift stuff etc that man can do either. And after you give birth, you need to rest. And you have to breastfeed your child, there are some who even advice to breastfeed till 3 years old. Can a man breastfeed?

Could you claim that a father can equally raise up a child till the age of 3-4 the way a mother raises up? It´s not about knowing how to cook and feed. The baby have developped in the mother´s womb, and he has special attachment to his mother.

So, in my opinion, it was not for nothing, if for thousands of years woman stayed at home and cared for the children. Now, the time has changed, and woman can work as well, and has to earn her own money, but before we attack the traditional opinions, we have to ask why it has been so, and what will be the consequences if we totally refuse the traditional family structure.