Unidentified assailants on Wednesday killed five police and a civilian driver in an attack in southern province of  Diyarbakýr, hours before the Turkish Parliament approved the extension of the military’s mandate to conduct cross border operations against the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, for a year.

The assailants raked a police bus with automatic weapons and hand grenades around 6 p.m. local time killing six and injuring at least 20 people, according to Interior Minister Beþir Atalay.

..

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=155317

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/excontent.php?htmlcon=terrorattacttopolice.htm

It is like a low level war right now

Looks like it´s going for the worse yet again...

I am not entirely sure if it is going for worse as the winter is coming. Winter goes relatively quite normally.

But I must say that the developments are quite interesting.

This time, it seems to me, people started to question of the army´s stance and its ability to handle these attacks!

I have been reading many columnists from various papers and many of them have been talking about ´this is a never ending war; it has been 40 years; that is enough; this  wont go away with the way we have been dealing with this, something got to be done ´ etc

uhh..double post..

 You are right, the heavy snow makes it hard for even PKK to do anything. My husband who was in the army until February this year said that some were hiding in mountain caves. They were sent out to look for them. There´s still operations during the winter, but generally not on a large scale.

It´s hard to believe that people are starting to question the army´s stance, but þükürler olsun if they are waking up I guess seeing so much death in the media takes it´s toll on the general population who may not used to heavy graphic detail in the same way as it´s presented now.

The way you speak is really strange... like what was done  was right around there... and all the guilt belongs to government...

i guess it is you who got blind with prentending to be modern and democratic...

its really hard to understand...

Sui - from which sentences did you get to that interpretation? I´m not following

 Simply your saying "even PKK" says enough to me... it gives false meaning...

this is not a war! this is a simple game that both sides love to play and only poor and unsecured soldiers die!... Its all politic... and Turkish government cannot make anything alone... Because unfortunately EU and USA has more power

 Oh please are you too becoming nationalistic?!!!

 This is not becoming nationalistic... Just speak your mind... It is me who living here and feeling the tension...

I live here! you just watch! thats why we have different opinions!

 Maybe it you need to stand back to see the truth sometimes, not live among it   You have very definite opinions about the EU and the US and yet you are not living there, does that invalidate YOUR opinions...

 This part I agree with.

The reason for my choice of words is that PKK use gerilla-type warfare in the mountains. They live there. Of course they are better to navigate there than inexperienced privates. Hence ´even´ they have trouble getting around.

 Look, you are still defending them... I didnt ask them to go live on mountains... and non of the governors... are they stupid? is it legal and right to get those so-called rights taken from the Kurds with weapon?

PKK cannot be gerilla never and ever... because i am not invading their countries or killing them for no reasons!

And guess what! Kurds are more lucky to get visa when they apply... did you know that?

 hahahaha and here lies the root of your hatred!

 I dont need to stand back from my problems at all... My opinions about EU and USA are exact... they have some good regulations but also very disgusting politics among this country...

Invalid or valid... this is what i see and think... why dont you step back from your argumentative identity and simply think about what is really going on...

Because what you are doing "just arguing to argue" is not fun anymore...

Don´t twist my words. I was making a factual statement - they live in the mountains thus they must be pretty light on their feet running around there. I didn´t say "it´s good they live there" or "it´s bad they live there" and I certaintly didn´t mention anything about the government asking them to go there.

If anything, I may have been symphatizing with the privates for having a hard time.

 Well I am not arguing for the sake of arguing today dearest Sui - I am frankly tired of your arrogance.  Your opinions about the EU and USA are exact eh?  But mine about your country cannot possible be valid because I am not living there?

Go check yourself in the mirror...

 cant you be serious once please! i beg you!

 I look pretty handsome on the mirror,

oh here you started to speak at least!

you are the least person here can call me arrogant first of all, secondly everybody can see that all the countries has a finger on that PKK issue that has a political benefit in those lands...

You also know that you are here just to argue, you can do that on any topic... dont try to deny it here now... if you had more logical answers i would agree with you...

But when you speak about my country and the behaviours to Kurds, you include me, my family, a retired police officer my father etc... So i have to tell you how i also behave them... you only hear and speak about bad and then generalize... this is even more tiring believe me...

 I apologize from you then... but i am some sensitive about when it comes to PKK... i got really cold while reading things about them...

 This is actually not true.  We each view things through a different window - you though the perspective of your police officer father and me through the perspective of first hand accounts from kurds.

I am not generalising and NEVER DO about racism and thank you not to patronise me.

 Oh now you suspect me as "boy of his father"... But this is entirely not true! As i discuss with my father about my country and its problems till morning...

Where i look at the point is not losing my self in minor details but seeing major problems! The solution to this problem is beyond what you are asking for... and its not up the societies opening their eyes. If they want to solve PKK, they will believe me. But they wont! because they smuggle Drug! They sell weapons! When they get bored they will finish it!

please you said every kurd is suspected as a potential PKK supporter... this is a generilzation... and very very false one!! then i wouldnt have any kurdish friends!!

I respect your opinon on the above, but, to use your words, if you do not live it, then you cannot really know

 Thats true really, but i really wish... you could understand...

As neither Sui or I are Kurdish, perhaps some of our Kurdish members could clarify the situation. 

Do you feel discriminated against? 

Do you feel the police are disrespectful or abusive to you? 

Do you every feel uneasy in your day to day life, because of your race?

If there are any Kurdish turks left on this site (who have not been chased away by name calling) please let us know

Look there Kurds are not the only race living in these lands, why on earth they are not on your tongue as much as kurds? because its us who creats this problem! not me personally nor you... but its us!

I dont make discrimination, so there is no way i can feel being discriminated against... The reason police might get more strict to Kurds cannot be classified because they are kurds only, because of their total number in Turkey are pretty much, in somekinda bad occasion mostly kurds come up? Why because they steal and do illegal things more! Why they move to big city to find a better job? But there is no job in this big city.  Do you really think police does that because they are Kurd? I dont think you are that blind!

The police cannot get abusive to me... because i am a person and i know how to answer to an officer...But there are lots of points of some officers stupid behaviours! like beating a guy in taksim for drinking in ramazan! 

Lastly... i will end up your questioning here... Personally, i think and would desire to see there is no borders and racism in these lands... But i would always have my word and say against something which is not right!

I dont think you need a first hand testimony for that..

Thousands and thousands of incidents happened (and still hapening)in the past and they are all known to anybody.

But some people are simply preferring to ignore them.

Unfortunately!!

 I can answer these for Kadir, who is born out of a Zaza father and a Kurmanci mother.

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

It depends on what chances in life you get from the place you came from. Kadir is studying medicines and nobody ever asked him if he was Turkish or not. He had the same chances and rights for education as any other citizen/Turk in Turkey. But just as Kurdish girls in villages dont really go to school/university, neither do their Turkish village counterparts. In Turkey your rights are not presented to you on a silver platter, you have to reach out for them. And this counts for Turks as well. It is easy talk for Turks in big cities, but their fellow citizins in villages do not have any more chance at a lifeperspective as Kurdish ones.

I am not saying there is no discrimination because I believe there is quite some discrimination (not to mention discrimination of PKK towards Kurds who do not support them, as happend in my boyfriends family), but in Turkey generally life is what you make it: Kadirs parents decided to leave Diyarbakýr and move to Ankara in order to give their children a better chance at education. Any other Kurdish or Turkish family in Diyarbakýr (atthat time) could have decided that as well. And they have, if education was something important in their families at that time.

I agree with Meltem that there arent much pure Turks in Turkey left, and then we could even discuss about what a pure Turk is.. I also agree that it is normal not to mention your nationality. Actually nobody introduces himself that way   There is discrimination against Kurds, but as citizens of Turkey they have the same rights as all other inhabitants, and they can achieve the same things as well. But it has to do with choices and circumstances.

(Obviously this is not a closing-answer, it is only 1 case of a good background. I merely wanted to point out that some discrimination about education-job is not true in many cases. Ýncidents in the past have shown us lots about discrimination. And the police in turkey is ´famous´ for being abusive anyway. Oh well this was my addition. It is too easy to just say they are discriminated because they are Kurds and to say that they do not have the same rights)

 I understand. It´s a very sensitive subject.

Very well said Deli_kýzýn...

I have very many friends who would say yes to all those questions..

But it will be tit for tat type of argument.

I think it will be misleading to just take a snap shot of a succesful  kurdish family and do the genaralisation to be honest. (even giving T Ozal as an example wont be enough. Or Hikmet Cetin -ex foreign minister from CHP. They went up there but they could not say they were kurdish)

And some history of last 100 years needs to be known as well in my opinion.

These problems did not start in 1980´s with PKK only, there was always a problem there.

And when you look at what the generic policies were during last 100 years, you will see a rasing nationalism and ignoring + asimilation the others. (plenty of examples regarding asimilation policies I have given here and you can find them easily anywhere  too)

Of course, when 12  eylul´s fascist military regime was the salt and paper for the problem. (all those emptying villages, changing names, banning the language, diyarbakir prison etc)

And, in my view, looking at our kurdish problem as terorism only and thinking that we have done nothing wrong -everything is done by usa and eu-is the real problem.

Unfortunately, until we realise that and stop looking at the army as the ultimate god in Turkish politics, we will keep losing those young boys..

That is the reality

 As I said, it was not a closing-answer, just an example of 1 family with good background. I did not make the generalisation, then you have not read my last words if you thought thats what I did.

I agree with you in this last paragraph. But Ive been told that the army starts to loose its divine image gradually lately.. ? That would be good progress.

I would like to remind you all, though, that discussing PKK itself is still prohibited for the time being. Just a reminder, so far it has not been about that in itself nor has the discussion escalated.

Thanks for that.

But why did you remind ME specially about the forum rules DK?

 Sorry, I forgot to type ´all´ (remind you all). It was not directed towards YOU personally, nor was that my intention. I was gonna reply to a few other posts and then go to bed, so I thought Id mention this to all posters here before I leave. I have modified my post, it was not directed towarsd you personally

 BTW just because I´m a bit interested in ethnics,you know maybe, there´re different theories about Zazas being kurd, being turk or being a different ethnicity in its own.

this discussion demonstrates that all this mess will be going on and on. you can not agree on simple things. so many words for nothing. do you have any suggextios what could be done to solve the problem. BTW, history knows many examples when political and personal will of person "made the history". this problem is not new in the world. you discuss minor aspects of the situation (atitude and opinions), though if old methods do not work, then smth should be done differently. what? taking into account that we live now in much more humane and politically correct world than our ancestors?

I`m personally for the partition of Turkey and a population exchange between the Kurds and Turks. The implicit and explicit costs of holding the southeast Turkey are immense. This region costs Turkey hundreds of billions of dollars each year, and it has 0 benefit to the country.

If we resist on the unity, the Kurds, who have at least 20 children each, will outpopulate the Turks sooner or later and guess what will happen? The whole Turkey will be Kurdistan. That is what the current administration wants. In fact even today, Turkey politically is a Kurdistan. The Kurds are the main source of votes for the Islamic parties. Eliminate the Kurds from voting, and more than half of the votes of AKP will disappear. We should really give them the piece of desert they want and let them whatever they want to do there.

And this was the funniest comment I have ever heard.. so you think the Kurds want our land because they innocently want to live on their own land?  There is nothing there.. How weird.. There is fuel in Iraq, there is fuel in Caspian Sea, there is fuel everywhere around.. and not there.. come on, grow up.. stop believing in media.. or the media created crisis.. if there is no benefit, no one would have fought about it..  Why doesn´t the other minority groups in Turkey ask for partition?  Did you ever think?  And I don´t know where you are from, but i can say your great grandfathers were not shedding their blood to keep our country and our land together.

I had many kurdish friends, and i always liked Kurdish people.. but if we talk about only them being tortured or treated badly, it is not fair.. yesterday somenody was talking about, how things went bad, and how the kurdish people suffered during the 1980 coupe.. for your info, the only people who were tortured badly or whatever was not the Kurds.. it affected everyone living in Turkey who was trying to bring a more independent life. 

And it was during our (supressed as azade said - or given up their origin)Kurdish presidents´ time, when all the dams were built in the south east.. when people realised that they were actually not living in a desert.. and of course let´s not forget the fuel issue..  which was located long ago, but not allowed to take it out, and recently rediscovered by an american oil company.. what a coincidence..

There is a big picture out there.. young people, specially young kurds who have no choice but join PKK or cooperate with the government and become a betrayers in their own community, soon becomes the target of this newly raised racism.. but actually there is none..  did you know that if you get on a bus and go to that area, the PKK willl stop you on the way, interrogate you, and rob you off?  So what are we talking about.

Turkish land has always been a home for many ethnic groups, which doesn´t necessarily mean that they own the land.. and like mltm said, we are all Turk - not genetically, but because we share the land. 

I don`t have to prove you anything but my grandfathers were in battle in the ww1 and the independence war, although I have no idea what this has to do with the issue.

There is oil in Iraq, there is oil in Iran, and there is oil in Syria and all of them are just backward third world countries. I don`t care if there is oil in the southeast or not. The Turkish economy has never relied on oil and will never be relying on it in the future either. We don`t need the f. oil to grow economically, but a stable country in which the resources are not wasted for weapons against the terrorists. As you said there is a big picture out there, and the big picture tells that the ME will run out of the oil within 50 years, and that sooner or later the Kurds will oupopulate the Turks if we don`t get them out.

The only solution is to stop fighting and work together for the goodness of all of us.. if we are loosing our soldiers in the battle, they are also loosing their people.. at the end of the day, there is no gain.. but, you know, our voices can not be heard, when there is so much noise.

So I just pray for everyone, for our soldiers, and for the PKK to realise what they are doing is wrong and bad.  And there can be no good outcome of it if they keep on killing the people.. If they have invested all the money they have invested in the guns, south east asia could have become one of the richest places.  Such a shame..

I wrote something recently about the importance of 1980´s torture and specially about diyarbakir prison..(Kurds have been kind of  ´double´ tortured )

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_34039_3

And regarding oil there, according to my searches the oil in the east is a bit of a baloon..

Oil there is too deep and too expensive to bring it up.

But i will say I agree with you in generic terms.

We have to find a way to live together and should stop trying to impose any type of ethnicity to others.

We should stop calling people who dont want to call themselves Turk as traitors. It is like forcing a scott to call himself english (and saying that but ´being english´ refers to being the citizen of this country)

I second you Merih

Talking about who is to blame and when did it all start and why isn´t situation getting better when people are getting killed is disrespectful to THEM. May they rest in peace.

as a kurdish who live in Istanbul

1.no

2.yes

3.sometimes

my answer is no to first question only because i am well educated , have a good job and have no kurdish accent so people dont realise that i am kurdish. but there are millions of kurdish who would answer "yes" all those questions.

 And you think that, Thats only related to being Kurd huh? very well pointing out

i dont understand what you mean

 Regarding oil, it is only said that it is too deep, and costly, but i have a family member, who has tried and almost was shot to death.. so I believe it is not a baloon,

Anyway, I am glad we agreed.  And I think it is a good sign, which shows if we can stop discussing who did what, but concentrate on how we can heal things, we will succeed.

I meant that ciko:

To the discrimation ethnicity can play the only role... personally i dont discriminate any person, I directly look at "what they are doing" and "why" more... a few sick peoples making discrimation cannot be load on whole country ...

but for other rules, like the abuse of police and etc... near your being kurd, turk and laz doesnt have the major role... what you do, how you behave...

You are living in a dream world if you believe this!  Are you trying to tell me that the police are not racist?

I have news for you - nearly ALL police in any country are racist!

 Nobody would take a person walking in the street to the jail because of their ethnical roots, if somebody does he also should go into the same jail together...

I am not living on a dream world, It is you who just love to exaggarate and glomorize every single thing...

you know where we differ... I just have more enlarge scale than what you have... you are only working with a single input... but there are more things have an effect on things to happen...

What do you know about our police or anything, and who are you to judge what is going on?  God has given brains to everyone of us so that we think for ourselves, but it seems some people lost that ability, and believe in what is said in media or by the people who has benefit out of it..  we don´t have a condition for the entry to police force, saying that you have to be of Turkish ethnic group.  And believe me you meet kurdish people everyday in every job or government office.. 

you know nothing about racism, it is there mostly in the developed countries.. It is racism when you don´t get a job, or people simply stop talking to you because you are not one of them,  or you are a potential terrorist everywhere you go.

well i was talking about police... and i will tell you something

Last week i was walking home ( from þiþli to taksim ) with my colleague and two cops stopped us and they asked my id card but they didnt have colleague´s id... it is only because i have dark skin, dark eyes - typical kurdish -  do you now understand better? and believe me it is not a few people. i swear i am asked to show my id card at least twice a week by the same cops in my neighbourhood. please do not tell me there is no discrimination in turkey. to accept we have such problems does not make you a traitor. it just shows you are mature enough to criticise yourself.

 and can you tell since when it is happening?  Was anybody asking you your ID 2 years back?

for 10 years !!!

 How do you know what I know, or don´t know eh?  You are the ignorant one if you believe what you wrote above.

Racism is not just about the things you listed, (or Sui´s idea that it is about sending ethnics to prison!!!).  It is everywhere, particular within police forces.  In the UK racism among police is a big problem, and I KNOW it is also a problem in Turkey and Ciko´s post confirms it.  It is not about detaining people...it is about abusing your power by bullying and intimidation.

 We can´t judge a nation because of some irresponsible people.  I am sorry that you have suffered and still suffering.. but do you really think fighting with the military forces, killing people , and getting a land???? would solve your problems?  Then nobody can come and ask your ID??  That´s what I was saying, we have to educate the people.  Look at the big picture.. Your people are all around Turkey.. will they come back if you own a land?  Do you think it is easy?  Where will you study?  Who will provide you all the services which were provided to you by the Turkish government.. good or bad, you had something..

You know what I believe, if there was to be a partition, none of the educated Kurds, or the ones well settled all around Turkey will go back there.. The poor little village people only cares about their own living.. and who will get use of the land?  Think about it.. big picture///

 I know what is racism, I am still living overseas and everyday witnessing various forms of it... How about you?  Did you ever feel what it is like?

 Merih you just showed yourself to be the bitter racist that you are!!!!  You talk to Ciko about "your people" and saying how much the "Turkish government" do for him?

HE IS TURKISH TOO!!!! His government is the Turkish government. 

You talk about racism being rare - and  yet you don´t realise it yourself that you are one - and that you are unable to view kurds as Turkish citizens...

 My brother has also the dark skin color but no one has stopped us in Taksim... where i spend alot of time there together...

You should have any problem with someones asking you to show your id car... everyday where i work jandarma is stopping me and i wait for 15 mins! everyday here in Aliaga!

You know well that lots of ugly business in Taksim are in the hands of Kurds... Kurds were treated as how black and indians treated in US...

Kurdish people were burocrats, presidents, they were in cabinets... why they havent done anything for the lands they had vote all the time?

Here where our biggest problem coming... we are not able to jugde and force our governors! This is what we have to consider!

 And by the way, so you believe those people who are bullied should be given a land in the UK?

Racism is much more than that! It´s also racism where only dark(er) skinned people have their tickets checked in public transport, or when a bus driver waits for a late coming white passenger but suddenly ´have to drive due to his schedule´ when a dark(er) person tries to catch that bus. It are not only the big things like jobs or being treated like a terrorist, in fact all these smaller things cause much more harm in society AND for the single person involved!

 + 10000000000000000000

Racism not, do other types of discrimination count too? For being a woman or for having a handicap? Yes, I know all about that.

Does that racism is only Kurdish people? Have any of you made a post about Israili government bombing half of Lebanon for only 2 soldiers?

You are only losing yourself in minor details also with digging our sentences... The citizens living on the south east region has a right that there was no enough investments and labour in those area... The rest is nonsense! if you are tend to make militia... you can make it for any reason! but if you are after your rights! there are far more effective ways that using weapons!

 The turkish government is working for everyone, turks, kurds, laz, armeninan, jews, and other minorities.. and to be able to express myself correctly, I have to say YOUR PEOPLE.. because we are talking about HIS PEOPLE who wants freedom.

And I am not racist. 

I had a painter in my house.. he came for a week, and one day he said, Abla (sister), I will not come anymore.. I asked why?  He said.. my brother is in this country.  They pay the painters very well.. I applied for political assylum (of course saying that he is tortured and he will be killed if he stays here).. I am flying tomorrow..

How about this??????

And can you tell me why are you so into it?  Who are you?

Ciko might know that, the Icisleri Bakaný! the head of the Police forces was Kurd rooted also, Abdulkadir Aksu, If there is somekind of thing among the Kurds why doest he react anything?

 Did anyone say it was only about Kurdish people?  The subject here was about Turkey, but we have discussed racism and police in most other countries on this forum before.

It seems only Turkey does not have a problem with this

It is useless to argue with ostriches... they will not take their heads out of the sand.

 well, it is good suddenly you all realised racism is everywhere.. and guess what, the indians don´t go and bomb UK, or the black doesn´t simplygo and kill us military forces..

what is it about Turkey, that gives the right to Kurdish people to fight it this way..

The stop talking to me! its very shame of you to call me as an ostrich! This conversation is now over!

 Yes, Mr. Ostrich, you are right.. and the solution to the racism in Turkey is PKK....

 I am a Miss actually

And... your sarcasm about PKK only proves that you think all Kurds support them!!!  Do I blame all muslims for 9/11 or 7/7 bombings?  So why do you do it with PKK eh?

Anyone said the acts of Kurds who bomb or use otherwise violence are ok? I haven´t read that, apparently you read only what you like to read. The fact stands: even if the re-action of a group is awful it doesn´t make the action of others suddenly legitimate.

 Still? At your age? You should find yourself a nice dudu to marry.....

 You are really weird! I have never called you names while trying to say something here...

But its really sad that, you dont worth it at all, I will continue saying my ideas... but i will not again go into dialogue with you... it will be more healthy for me...

Of course, PKK is racist too..

But the real solution is to get rid of the dominant racism which happens to be ´the turkish one´, and then you can deal with the racisms from minorities.

Otherwise our own ´state backed racism´ will keep fueling the others.

 Do you really believe that, the solution to PKK is ending Turkish racism?

 i am not personally doing, and I don´t like anyone in my country or another country...

But since, you are so sure that we turkish are harassing the kurds every moment we find, then surely you are the racist..  because you are prejudice.  You don´t even doubt that, what we turks say can have a point as well..

 I totally agree.. we were discussing PKK, and suddenly thesepeople came in to legitimise the actions of PKK syaing that all the kurds suffer in Turkey.

(1) I never said such a thing.

(2) You are now acknowledging there is a racism problem in Turkey?

(3) Again you say "we Turkish" and "Kurds" which just shows you do not consider them to be Turkish citizens, even though they are born in Turkey same as you.

(4) The only "point" I can see you making is that you are trying to deny problems that do exist.

 Who exactly is legitimising the actions of the PKK?  please could you quote the posts and "people" you are referring to?

It seems you only read, what you want to see, not what is actually written.  Turkish paranoia at work

Yes..

It will be the ´starting point´ for the solution.

We have to show them that we can live together without forcing them to accept our own terms.

Accept or not ´there are people there and they dont want to say that they are Turks´.

We have to find a solution to accomodate them..and screaming ´Ne mutlu Turkum diyene to their faces, waving the flags, singing anthem after every incident so often etc´ are not helping to be honest.

 So why don´t we try to solve the problems from the right ways.. like you members of parliament can bring up the problems and try to do something about them?

 Sometimes I´m thinking as well if it would be better this way.

 You sure are a war train and it seems you like to discuss..

We don´t have to convince you for anything.. please keep on believing what you do.. you are not the solution to our problems anyway..

by the way, if you don´t like the Turks so much, why are you in this site anyway..

 Yes, I think we should maybe consider this in England too.  The immigrant Turks and muslims should have their own section right, perhaps called Englastan....?

 Turkish paranoia again?

Where do I say I "don´t like the Turks"?

I come here specifically to annoy YOU

(Why do you come here Merih? To learn Turkish? )

 I know Turkish.. and I am Turkish.

And, yes i can read between the lines.

 I thought that is what you were saying that it should happen in Turkey.. why not in UK?

 Hehehe yes of course you are Turkish.

So again...why do you come here eh?

 To teach, and help others translate.. unlike YOU

 Again you don´t bother to read what people actually write.  I have NEVER suggested you should segregate kurds into a separate area and do not support the PKK. 

Quite the opposite.  You should integrate and treat kurds as Turks - because they are!

 I could try to teach Turkish if you wish?

It is like ASALA, now PKK tomorrow it will be something else!

These racism things are not correct way to start to solution... You can simply ignore those provocators so they would just shout for themselves... But the real solution comes, to interrupt the sources of this organisation.

Questions are:

How do they find money?

How do they get the weapons?

If they are fighting for libery why do not they educate their people but killing them?

These questions can get more than 1 page it self... we have to focus on the problem, not to the imperial lies goes around mass media...

 I could only lol

 Turkish paranoia!!!!  They get weapons and money from illegal sources such as ex-pat kurds living in the US and Europe.  However you only like to say "the money comes from US and Europe" of course, because you love to be blind

 Is this your better way? To let people display their ethnicity in a country called Türkiye and where its citizens are called Türk regardless of whatever ethnic origin they have? Anyone in Turkey can state her/his etnicity, I have witnessed so many people who talk about their origins, no measure is taken against someone who states his/her ethnic origin. Where are you forced to tell that you are Turk? It´s just in national and legal affairs. Do you think it´s something discriminating having the same identity card, I find it rather something equalizing every citizen.  Or would you prefer to be labelled and treated according to your race?

Here in France arabs find it discriminating because they think that they are not really considered French (and most of them are originally immigrants) and you are rebelling because you are considered a Turk.

It was a delight to talk to you Merih but alas I see the work on my desk is piling up so, it is with much regret that I bow out of this debate and wish you a beautiful day

Mwah

Look dont you think all governors are aware of those ex-pats??

USA is watching till the sexual organs in the airports when you try to enter... Ofcourse the Europa and US has a finger!

 US and UK consider PKK to be a terrorist organisation.  Money will always find a way.... the americans sent millions of it to the IRA to pay for bombs to kill the English, but I don´t blame the US government for such a thing.

 And why dont you quote my 3rd question? but these two only you love call paranoia? It happenes!

just as in 9/11 can you really imagine a plane with tons of weight could that closer "pentagon"?

 OMG!!!!!

I have to work now, but will leave you to chew over your paranoid conspiracy theories.  You should get out more instead of digesting dubious documentaries!

Adios!

 WarTrain you are not playing your game well. Not very professional really.

It´s you who provokes people in any thread bringing up the "Kurd-Turk" subject on a regular basis

Isn´t it you who wrote an answer to a post where it was said "Turks are hospitable people and they treat foreigners well etc" And YOU who warns us not to discriminate Turks according to their ethnicities said there "Ohh ask kurds about how turks treat foreigners" . You first group Turks according to their ethnicities and call Turks of kurdish origins as foreigners and then when you see someone who explains the "etnical discrimination" accuse him of doing racism.

 Thank you really that you leave me alone finally!!!  We will see in the near future what will happen...

 I am not paid for this, so therefore don´t claim to be a professional.  I am maintaining my amateur status so that I can appear in the olympics next year

And your point is? 

This may be life or death for you Melty, but it is just a little lunchtime fun for me

 But you are always misleading the conversations, you dont really care if people asking serious questions or not... For your lunchtime fun, you are just mixing the peoples mind!!!

And this is not a very ethic behaviour!

 I answer seriously but I really don´t take things seriously.  How on earth can I mix with people´s minds!

This can only possible happen to the very weak-minded   If you are such, you should not join an argument with me

 Miss very clever and strong minded, go an eat you lunch and please do your work.. you are wasting your precious time with us weak minded people.

 Maybe you haven´t noticed the point since you are so hungry but I´m sure it is enough clear for others to notice.

 You can effect people! because they do not know you... And why you are in this site... But soon they will learn you will just dont miss any point to heat the fire...

 Tesekkur ederim Merih.  And my sincere apologies - I had absolutely no idea that my comments would mix with your mind

 And I am sure you will find a new rule soon (to add to the many other reasons for deleting posts).

My sandwich was lurveeeelyyyyyy thank you canim

 I hope one day someone whom you´d take more serious as well will warn you to open up your eyes a bit more as you do it for others. Do not bury your head in the sand, otherwise people will regard you as the famous american blonde who thinks that Europe is a country.

 I thought that´s her 

 Ehehehehehe this is great Melty!!!!!  I am, frankly, amazed that my comments about racism have caused such outrage amongst the turkish pure bloods!!!

Am I mixing with your mind too?

For Sui, Meltem and Merih (so they may unmix their minds and sleep well tonight).

THERE IS NO RACISM IN TURKEY.  It is a beautiful place (like a paradise really) where there is no crime and people welcome all races with open arms.

The end

 Its not the names you spelled up that would mix our minds...

It was just the users who try to learn something, till you appear to mislead their threads...

 You patronise the others users.  You think they can´t make up their own minds about things?  You think they have no knowledge of Turkey themselves?   

Their little tiny minds may get mixed up and think bad things about Turkey?

Ohhhh hahahahahahahah

 THERE IS NO RACISM IN TURKEY IN THE FORM YOU WANT TO HEAR.

  Like it happened to yours?

 Well since it is only you and us in this thread, no other user is affected.  And our tiny minds, I bet they are hundred times bigger than your.

 I think my sarcasm escaped you!  I was not saying that anyone has tiny minds - only that Sui seems to think so.

 I dont patronise anyone... If you dare to check how i answer to them...

the bad things in Turkey are existing in any other country... but the thing is you will never get bored to mention in any single thread about it... and you mention everything in a very exaggrating way...

According to you, anyone speaks against you is racist, and patronising... Because you are the symbol of modenist democratic society

 Really, I need to contact the company that employed you.

 and the top racist..

well, why don´t we all just ignore her, and stop this thread.. this girl has nothing else to do..

 Since when people´s being mislead means that they have tiny mind...

I simply said that you can mix peoples mind! you did this in that life82´s thread... she just want to know if she will be in good conditions... you were supposed to answer that...

 You DO patronise them Sui if you think that a comment from me can change their mind about a subject.  You assume people are so dumb that they don´t already have opinions and views of their own???

I have always said that bad things happen in the UK - the difference is, when we say them about Turkey you are completely unable to take criticism - you act like a brainwashed nationalist.

I am a symbol of nothing - however that modernist democratic society you speak of seems to be what Turkey constantly strives (and sometimes fails) to achieve If you hate it so much, go live in a muslim state

Are you fighting???

Just to add my tuppence worth. When ever I told Turkish that I was visiting the east of the country (Diyarbakýr and surrounds) I was asked WHY?? It was dirty, poor and full of Kurds! When asked when they last visited the area not one of them had been but they knew it was like that!!

Actually it was a beautiful and fascinting area that is not being exploited enough for tourism.

Just my penny worth!!!

 That´s what we usually do here, but she keeps changing her username, and eachtime thinking that we talk with a new user, we exchange a couple of posts with her. 

 Ouh really?

I change my username regularly, but never make it a secret and always ask Catwoman to delete my old one.   Shouldn´t you be busy experimenting on your pets right now?

 I did answer that - just not in the way YOU wanted me to.  

Stop playing at being the Turkish Tourist Board and for once say ONE THING bad about your country and we may stop being so extreme in criticising it!

 Yeah it is common for them to talk about the east in this way....

Yet meltem says there is no racism 

A comment from you is welcome anytime... but not a speculative comment, which you tend to do... I just ask you to try to be alittle sensitive... (now you will say again you try to patronise me) its just a offer... People´s believing in the comments made by honest people here will never make them dumb! this is what you said and want to understand... This is a good website and people believe in what you say...

I am not a brainwashed nationalist... then i wouldnt even try to speak to you, though it is always tiring, coz you always deny to see what i really want to say...

Turkey can never be democratic with a government including professional thieves

 I don´t know who said that, but I believe it is a beautiful place and it has a unique culture and tradition.

anyway you´re all foreigners to me!!

There is so much to comment on your above post - the comments, especially about your own democratically elected governement, speaks volumes , but what is the point?  You think I am stubborn and wont see your point of view, but you fail to see that you, also, will not see my point of view!

You think your opinion is the truth and mine is false and you worry that others will believe my false views eh?

Wake up and smell the coffee....

 If you sometimes read my words, i dont always say GOOD things about my country...

there is a saying:

"A human-being grows up with the raw milk", this is said for their capability to do anything to reach what they want...

You always talk about the issues mentioned by the imperial media about Kurds etc...

What i say is thats just to cover up what they really want to do... again you say this is a conspiracy theory... then there is nothing i can do about it...

I again say that... there is no democracy in Turkey, there can never be a democracy in an elections where spent such a big money! there can never be democracy where the people is being transferred from party to party...

When you use words such as "imperial media" you reveal yourself just a little too much...

My knowledge, like yours, is gained from a wide variety of sources, from talking to Kurdish people to documentaries to books to newspapers.

I fail to see how your sources are anymore reliable - particularly as Turkey practices censorship so brazenly.

With regards to democracy in Turkey - you didn´t complain until this government arrived, and get your history is of military coups. 

 Sui..you really believe 911 was a conspiracy theory?  You can´t imagine how those planes got so close to the pentagon..please explain yourself.

 That´s the best joke I´ve heard in the last 3 decades...!

 Actually an average a little bit intellectual person wouldn´t say it. It´s because they are ignorant people with whom you talked to.

And if you tell the same thing to a random tourist that has visited Turkey before, your chances to hear the similar thing is very high because ignorant people are everywhere, and it is possible to be reacted similarly for the northern region of Turkey where there´s not a lot of "attraction" like in the south east. It´s a commercialist world and people do not give much importance to history and culture.

But that has nothing to do with racism that is done by the Turkish government.

I said in the form of some of you think and want to hear.

 Trust my words, or not, its up to you... you say your opinions and i say mine... simply we will never satisfy with that as i find missing informations in your words and you simply find mines abusive...

I have no problems with reaching to any sources, have no doubt about that...

It is joke of the day..

You may not have heard ´THERE IS NO RACISM IN TURKEY´ but in Turkey people grow with the ideas such as  ´how glorifying being a turk´  and we always heard that it is not racism

Do you expect they would know what really racism is?

I was reading this thread before lunch and was quite impressed with the debate.  I think when I left it was about 7 pages or something like that.  I come back an hour and a bit later and it has turned from an interesting debate to an all out war and slanging match.  How can anyone make their mind up when there is such mud slinging going on?

Hahaha judging my Meltem´s last snooty post, her sentence should have read:-

THERE IS NO RACISM IN TURKEY AMONG INTELLECTUALS!

 I wonder if you have read any of my posts referring to "being called turk".

Maybe they are able to, but I guess they don´t want to...

This is what i find it hard to believe really teaschip... US has the best information systems in the world right? the powerful army and defending system right?

They have the technology to get rid of from those planes before they could get close to pentagon...

 actually that was my point. The racism seems to be endemic throughout the social strata of "Turkish". Also, I have seen the discrimination of Kurdish friends first hand and find it very difficult to accept. You can try to have a rational conversation about it but I find that ordinary people just come out with stock phrases that they have learnt since childhood. I also agree that PKK do not help the public perception of what being Kurdish means.

Anyway. I´ll leave you to fight amongst yourselves and toast all Turkish people no matter what their ethnic background. 

I have exactly the same experience as Tinababy. Many, many Turkish people telling me that ´the East´ is bad, dangerous, dirty, not hospitable etc. All from people who were never in the East themselves and ask me ´Where is that place?´ when I tell them the villages and cities I´ve been to. Must mean that there are many ignorant people in west-Turkey.....

 You are the one who travelled all east and south east! wont you speak some life in society? why dont speak what you see and explain the racism you saw with your eyes?!

 If I thought you were open minded enough to listen, I would. Now it is a waste of my time.

Thanks for your thoughts about me... But i am open minded enough to answer this comment of your about me...

Not only for me... i had asked for nearly 19000 members of this website...

 I think I can answer this.  The US had NEVER been a victim of a direct terrorist attack on US soil until that day.  They may have had the technology, but it was something that had never happened and they were not prepared for it.

In addition, the attacks involved commerical aircraft carrying hundreds of people.  To shoot them down would have been a very brave decision to make with huge repucussions. 

It is easy in hindsight to say they should have intercepted them.

 Sure. Nearly 19000 members (of whom many are not online for years or who only post ´askimhayatimseniseviyorum´-messages) share your views? They all think like you that there is no racism? Dream on.

 So they decided to let thousands die????

 I never said there is no racism, god! But it is not like as you mentioned in every step in a street...

The racists are those provocators... there are on Turkish side... and both on Kurdish side...

 so you know all?  and they say we don´t agree with sui

 Sharing my view or not has nothing to do with that...

i didnt want to mention but... hasnt your saying "waste of your time for a not open minded enough" had a little with discrimation and racism?

And i can say that you are hiding behind that ridicilous reason not to speak of what you have seen... It was just a selfish behaviour

They had only minutes to decide ANYTHING.  There was no typical warning of a hijack, it happened and then they have to decide if to shoot a stray commerical airliner down carrying hundreds of people, without actually knowing that it was carrying suicidal muslim extremists inside it!!!

These things are decided by HUMANS.  They may have technology, but the attack was unprecidented.  Of course errors are made and nobody decides to shoot down a commercial aircraft lightly.

However, if you wish to believe in conspiracy theories, please do.  This is my opinion, you have yours.  Just stop thinking of the US as infallible robots with more technology than we can ever imagine!

I can tell you from what i heard from a local, there is PKK on the road stops people after a few miles there is a local soldier station. They report it to the officer there but what they say is let them do.

every single plane has a route to travel and in every little point they are being watched so they could do something about it before they had the crash...

Yeah you can say i watch so many sci-fis lately...

So now I´m discriminating you? Whoehahaha! You are not so open minded but you are definitively funny.

 Why on earth you still waste your time on such narrow minded me?

And anyway.. i am not being that because you have told me so... i really dont care... i was honestly wanted to learn what you have seen... that was all...

 All it takes is a little common sense, detective work & REAL science to know that the hijackers were all that were needed to bring down the twin towers and pentagon.  The hijackers had turned the transponders off, so no one knew exactly where the missing flights where.  Planes have been used in the past by terrorists for either a ransom or demand they never thought it would be used as a weapon.  Making your claim that it was our goverment who conspired to do this in order to give us the green light to pursue more oil is totally idiotic on your part.  Before the attack our goverment and President was focusing on cutting goverment spending, a war would not put us in a position to do that then.  All the motives supplied by conspiracy theorists have no basis at all in the facts. 

i read conversation: messages 36-40, and on last pages up to message 165 and thought that people should forget by now who fought for what, whose grand…grand father died at the war and smth like that. these cannot be reduced to a common denominator, endless.... separatism can lead us to world mosaic of "San Marinos and Andoras"

government could use brute force in real meaning. good strategic mind, firm will and strict hierarchy of submission. Rome made the same decision about Carthage. unfortunately, only after third Punic war. These wars cost bilions of money and thousands of lives. Though, Turkey will blamed hardly. Either country should be dominated in the world and does not care about its deeds or create good image of itself.

government can build developed civil infrastructure. People value comfort. People who are settled and live in cities are more likely to be more about  maintenance of comfortable status. several generations in cities will turn people to more liberal, tolerate and democratic by nature.

the other way is just wait. there is theory that we are going into new Ice age. Long story why, but main thesis is - when climate is cold people flock together, when it gets warmer each nation wish o go on its own. Current warmth is "last gift".  the cost-is-no-object approach at last.

 To say that communication between civilian Air Traffic Control (ATC) and NORAD was abysmal on the morning of September 11, 2001 would be a massive understatement. As an illustration, it took ATC twenty-three minutes to communicate to NORAD that American Airlines Flight 11 had been hijacked,¹ and in the case of United Airlines Flight 175, ATC informed NORAD of that flight´s odyssey through northeast skies at 09:03, the same minute as Flight 175 impacted Two World Trade Center!²

Communication between ATC and NORAD in regards to the last two flights hijacked--American Airlines Flight 77 and United Airlines Flight 93--fared worse. In these two cases NORAD wasn´t officially informed of any troubles with those flights until after they had crashed!³ In the case of Flight 77, that flight began deviating from its flight plan at 08:54,⁴ but NEADS wasn´t informed about Flight 77 until 09:34 when NEADS just happened to be in contact with a Washington Center manager discussing what turned out to be a "phantom" Flight 11 heading south towards Washingon, D.C. During the conversation NEADS was matter-of-factly informed that Flight 77 was also lost. This was the first indication that NORAD had of Flight 77´s troubles ... via a chance utterance by Washington Center!⁵

^{THE WHOLE ARTICLE: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20081008162855671}

It was very bad yes, but a conspiracy?

They were slow to react and indecisive and I hope they were disciplined.  However, if you go around looking at sites like 911truth.org, then you will start to believe conspiracy theories I suppose.

Shall I find you similar wacky sites about the big muslim plots to take over the world?

Believe it or not, the US DO MAKE BIG MISTAKES!!!!

 Why shouldn´t I look at those sites? Maybe they have some point, and I prefer to consider every possibility than believing in what is offered to me to believe. US do make big mistakes but it is not very imaginary thing to believe that it can be the narrator of such a monstreous plan. we often think too simple and that´s the problem.

And where did you get your information, from the US controlled media?

 This is what I meant in another post.. an ethnic identity is not necessarily based upon origin or kinship. It is often created in what fits people most or what they prefer to belong to.

I should read some more work from Martin van Bruinessen, he is a Dutch ´Kurdolog´, and is really a specialist on the topic of Kurdish peoples. I attended a few seminars of him about Kurds in Turkey. It was really english. I think his books must be available in English, if not in Turkish as well.

 Typically people who buy into this theory also believe in 1950 when people claimed that aliens from outerspace where demanding we stop nucleaur testing.  People will go to any length to draw attention. 

I disagree. Sui is one of few people here who even can discuss these issues rationally. He has his views and that does not make him ´not so open minded´!

 Loved that one

 hehe btw "burden" should be "bury", I have to revise my english vocabulary

 +1

It became the famous ´I am right - Nooo, IIII am right´ debate.. speculating a little over words, whether we can or cannot speak of ´kurds´ ´turks´ ´them´ ´us´ in a debate. There is a lot in words yes, but sometimes you can say too much as well..

It has become boring and too full of personal comments. Please continue to discuss whatever you think would be the sollution,ethnicity, racism and nationality, but continuing personal comments and posts specifically about PKK (let alone supporting it), will result in this thread to be locked.

Now please continue this interesting debate

 Me too. I have read that Sui is been called a racist as well during this debate if I remember well, I find that rather unfair and quite ill-informed. 

They say practice makes perfect... but I havent seen my english getting any better though I posted over 5000 posts here

I would like to protest against this quite wrong and ugly stereotype. Please... challenge your own stereotyping as well (not referring here only to my love mltm, but in general). There are stupid and ignorant people in every country, US is not unique. And there are lots of intelligent and very brilliant people in the US as well. Using such stereotypes is, I think, quite wrong.

Well.. I have not followed the messages before, and I´m sorry if I misjudged the post of my lovely mltm... it was really just a general statement, not connected to the thread really.

P.S. I´m sorry darling if I took it wrong what you wanted to say. xxx

Awww

Actually what I did there was not stereotyping, I just referring to this one particular girl "the famous blonde" http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7-1sn7o0j8A  who I  thought nearly everyone knows.

bUT I agree with you, I usually avoid to use stereotypes as much as possible. (though the magnitude of the stupidness and ignorance among americans is significantly higher than in any other developed countries)

Can you prove this claim?

 Aww to prove this claim... I´ll search a way to prove it, but at the moment I can just rely on my observations and other people´s opinions which I find quite enough.

And have a look at the video: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

I mean in the most developed country of the world, this much of dumbness isn´t it a bit too much??

and we are again off-topic.

 It is even worse than I thought....!

Trudy, I am disappointed with your open mindedness to be honest..

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mkwB9ayK4&feature=related

(Brits are not that stupid too)

How sad that someone who claims to be so educated would make such an arrogan, ignorant, and stereotypical comment.  Can´t wait to see your research!!  

 hehehe I was prepared to get some attack. Sorry if I offended some americans, but as I stated, not all americans are dumb which I guess is the majority (that is not dumb), but just it´s something serious to have such a big amount of dumbness in a very developed country. ýt just tells that there´s something wrong in th system.

Well... I think that you have a point about the low level of education in a very developed country. This is quite right. However, your numbers about majority or minority or that there are "so many" people who are ´dumb´ here is quite wrong. Education and ´dumbness´ are two different things, and especially that you based your reasoning on the most stupid video on youtube is rather disappointing.

You call that an attack???  Are you so thin skinned? 

Clearly you were baiting, sorry you didn´t quite get the response you were so prepared for!!

You don´t know I´m not British?

Well: Quod erat demonstrandum as my math teacher said....

BTW This one is fun too:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=esbS_vT25GU&NR=1

You are so well educated Trudy... you speak latin and you can find dumb videos on youtube!

I think what is wrong with the Americans is not ignorance but arrogance. Just listen to that man who says "everybody knows that" after saying yasser arafat is the leader of al qaida. This video in fact is not funny at all.

I agree with this a little more... however, when a Turk says "happy is the one who can call himself a Turk"... is pretty arrogant don´t you think.

However... most Americans simply don´t know about what their government is doing overseas. They truly believe that "America is a source of good in the world" as Palin put it lately... People are lied to and they believe it...

The majority of the population in this world are dumb actually.  It´s like the saying never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.  We have seen this over and over through out our world´s history. I wouldn´t say specifically Americans themselves however.  As far as arrogance, I have heard that so many times.  I think if you came to the U.S. and visited the south you would definately have a better understanding that the term arrogance does not apply to all Americans.  Maybe were confident and a little boastful, but so what..

Thanks. I know also the difference between Poland and the US. Do you (maybe?) know the difference between the UK and the Netherlands...?

Do not hit my soft spots please...

I think this is quite true. Americans are much more confident then most other nationalities, in fact in some other cultures humility is a virtue and not confidence and confidence is often seen as arrogance. I know this from experience.

 Specially for you (because I think you like Latin): ubi bene, ibi patria and carpe diem....

I will respond to this after I get it translated...

 Or as my dad used to say:

Quod licet Ýovi, non licet bovi!