My heart goes out to all the families of those very young men who died today. Its so sad and tragic

I pray that this will not escalate further and cause even more anti-kurdish feeling. 7 of the 13 soliders killed were kurdish. Kurdish does not automatically mean PKK supporter.

I second this, Aenigma, http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=47707

AND

http://www.zeit.de/news/artikel/2007/10/21/2404023.xml

I cannot believe that only 2 persons have posted about such an important issue. Apperantly dear foreign members of Turkishclass are only interested in their Turkish boys or the exotic things in Turkey and turkish members are only interested in hunting girls here. What a pity!!

theres never an ethnicity problem between bigest part of Turkish&Kurdish people,we r as nail and finger by the long historical&cultural past.Just some extrem Kurdish nationliats using this wonderfull diversity as a poitical weapon,but i believe that we will fix this trouble with more friendship,and the true decisions of our goverment.Beside that thats a big responsibilty about that for Turkish and Kurdish intellectuals for lightining to worries of both people.By the way our hearts always togheter with Turkish soldiers who has mission to keep peace under really very hard conditions...a dirty game playing at east of Turkey for creat an ethnicity problem with the support of some dark powers...

I am afraid the the time for diplomatic talks or exchanging condolences has passed...everyone must do what he has to do !

Lets cover everywhere with Turkish flag today for show our reactions to all terrorist attacks on the every part of world....

i got a message from Turkey. My turkish friend from Istanbul said the war had started.
Let's pray for the country we all love so much.
Let's pray for the people we like and love.
Let's pray for the soldiers and officers.

I hope it's just a military operation and everything will be good.

we love our Kurdish brothers and sisters more then ever,but never terrorists and i believe that most of Kurdish people which in living in Turkey against this terrorism to,so Turkey passing from a very rough road at the days,so time to be more unite and time to say ''THİS COUNTRY ALL OF US''.Theres not a war in Turkey,just a determinism against to terrorists and all who supporting this damn divisinevess!!!!

I am a Turk and I have no objection to PKK having their own independent country, including a piece from Republic of Turkey.

All they have to do is to match the price Turkia paid for the same land, in history. Countries do not come free of charge.

Of the luckier Kurds who enjoy Turkish passports, the smarter ones have the intelligence to look around and compare status of Turkish, Syrian, Iraqi and Irani Kurds...They know they are comperatively way better off in Turkey, and that their life in SE ANATOLIA is possible only under Turkish sovereignity.

If Turkia, one day, loses SE ANATOLIA, it will not be to Kurds. There are much smarter and stronger other suitors after the same land. Kurds do not have chance.they are just moribund puppets.

They also have a dept to pay to Arabs yet. As soon as USA pulls out of Iraq. Arabs will remember Kurds sold them out USA.

In near history, Turkia had sheltered Iraqi Kurds against Saddam's tyranny. This time, Kurds will find the Turkish borders closed....


PS: Does anyone want to know what happened to some of the Kurds that Turkia saved from Saddam and fed/sheltered for montha?

Racism is alive and kicking in Turkey after all

Turks, Kurds and all other ethnic groups of Turkia JOINTLY will get PKK, god help those who are on terrorists' side ...That is not racism.

This IS racism.

İ had this post in one of the translation requests,and i thought to post it here to have your opinion about it too.

Quoting MrX67: Quoting CANLI: Quoting alperrr: i hope soo .. Turkish army know what they do about this situation. dont worry, we will do that. these terorists wont kill any turkish soldier anymore... İ believe as much as i for one was aginist the army interfere in Politics ' in the last election',but this is the army ground,and we all have faith,and trust in the Turkish army. Just my heart goes out for them ...i wish they dont have to fight and things ends peacfully. peace is best fix as you said Canlı,but some of blood drinkers can't imagine this wonderfull value with their closed hearts&minds

We are sad, unhappy, shocked but if they want to make us frightened by these disgusting attacks,they can only die.After the attack, 32 terrorists were killed.

Maybe its not always clear to those who have a deep faith, but this kind of thing is VERY offensive to non-muslims. You have your religion and faiths, we have ours.

Who is deserving of being in "heaven" depends on God/Allah - not some man-made section of religious faith.

(I know you would not cause offence deliberately Canli, but I had to express my view)


Not sure who said this but i quote ' RELIGION WILL TOLERATE ATHEISTS AND AGNOSTICS BUT NOT OTHER RELIGIONS' unquote. How true is that.

If you dont want religious debate, then DONT POST THINGS LIKE THIS!!!!

i advice to all friends about to thinking a bit more calm,cultural&belief diversities really a big wealth for the large world family,and we all need to think more healthy abut social events for don't help to aims of all sort racists,and we have to keep our tolerance and respect to all diversities.And thats road pass on secualr thinkings i think.Tolerance for different life stilies,secualrism for the different beliefs and finally respect to all which or who doesn't live,believe or thinking like us,any better fix?i think noone of us never forget that we each one a member of the world family with our own specialites and we all need each other ever and more day by day...

CBS NEWS

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/22/iraq/main3390327.shtml

peace,friendship,tolerance,brotherhood,modesty,love,care,share etc....all what we need and not to hard choise em with a simple mind prefer....

It's here all over the news. I hope Rice can convince both sides to call a truce. I would prefer to have Turkey remain an Alley. However, seeing the news I see protestors in Turkey rioting against the U.S. I hope a resolution can come out of this.

The Turkish government promises talks before any attack. However, they currently have moved thousands of their military to the border. This does not look good, my friends.

Which people you know , people practice Islam by their identity cards or people know Islam and think about it very much , have to love everything in the Universe?

We believe that in the other World, muslims will be asked why we were believers in the world.Just for being for our ancestors' religion or finding Allah by looking, searching and travelling the world.
So,only Allah knows but every muslim is not a real muslim.

This also would include Johavas Witnessess. They only belive 300,000 are going to heaven. I think were all shit of luck.

Especially in Turkey,we are all sad about extremists.They are the biggest enemies of Islam.

A Russian professor says that if you learn Islam not deeply,you will be a bigot,however if you learn Islam deeply,you will be a philosoph.

To MRX67: " Peace at home, peace in the world" (Gallipoli)

Awwww,but i like this song...cant you sing it along for the sake of peace lol ?!

and badiabellydancer will dance for us

who wants more blood please say " yes" don't be hypocrate! There are people believing in sheding blood everywhere in different names of religion, nation , faked stories and interests! But the better to honest to yourself and not have 2 faces . Here saying something and feeling in your heart another thing.

This subject REALLY interests me! but for a chilean person like me, It is very complicated to understand because of many factors like geographical reasons , lack of clear information - The TV news in Latin America mostly support the USA Point of View on foreign affairs!- ... I did some research and was reading about Kurdish people's history, background, what they are asking for , something about PKK however, I think only informed people can give their opinion on sush a sensitive topic !!!!!! I dont feel I have enough knowledge to give my opinion, however, I know a very nice kurdish guy and he is trying to explain the "Kurdish version" of this conflict and...I feel so sorry for kurdish INNOCENT people, they say most kurds are very peaceful people and just want to live peacefully together as brothers but also told me about the hard times when kurdish language was banned , when he could not study in his mother tongue and many other things, the story of his people REALLY AFFECTED ME , you cant imagine...!!! they want to be independent from Turkey, they want to have their land and govern themselves, I think this is never going to happen and I just hope no more innocent people suffer because of this... I just try to understand BOTH sides...hard task!!!

I perceive, however, that most turkish people respect kurds , some consider them as "brothers" as I pointed out but of course, there must be many who consider kurds nothing but a problem ...I wonder, do most kurds consider themselves as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish but part of Turkish nation" ...do their aspirations have ANY chance to come into reality in the future? do their aspirations have ANY VALIDITY??
Dilara.

We deplore the killing of Turkish soldiers at border, and support the Turkish government to take all possible means to the peaceful solution before the start of this war,this is evidence of love and pride to its people and not to push them in war might be lost because PKK take the rugged mountains maybe difficult to eliminate them

Media says in brief=
"Some countries are supporting and organising this illegal and guilty terrorist group, unfortunately, everybody knows these countries, ".

To AEnigma III,

This is not my opinion.
Turkish Media and Public Union say according to evidences, witnesses, terrorists weapons and confessions...

Then I repeat (yet again) that I have seen (and previously posted) the Turkish governments OWN STATISTICS on the weapons seized from the PKK and that the majority were bought either from Italy via Eastern Europe and from South America. There were as many Turkish weapons seized as there were from US or UK...

I have no any idea about this topics.

DILARA,
You are right when you say people should have knowledge about a subject, before they feel qualified to express opinions on it..

My own experience with Kurds is that most of them are very nice people too.

What you must understand however, is that Republic of Turkey contains many other ethnic groups other than Turks and Kurds...The number probably runs above 20, an no government offers schools to fit the needs of all exinting etnic groups in a country.There is no ban on Kurdish in Turkia: Your nice Kurdish friend however is misleading you . What he should tell you is that the official language of the state, by constitution, is Turkish, and that the state schools offer no education in other ethnic languages (no Kurdish, no Lezgi, no Greek, no Armenian...etc). But talking your own language within your family, friends, printing your paper in your language, making music in your language etc. is free.

The same rule applies when citizens have to deal with the state, say in courts..trials are held in Turkish, but state provides citizens who can not express themselves in Turkish, free translators. After 85 year into this new republic, I think Kurds are the only ethnic groups who still needs this assistance. (founders of the republic had peacemeal remnants of an Empire in thir hands (as people), they figured a common official language between all (Turkish because Turks had the largest numbers) would be a better tie, than 26 different private languages...towards forming one united nation)

It is also free for members of all different etnic groups to set up their own schools under government control and help their youngsters learn their mother tongue and inherit their own etnic culture. Some etnic groups like Greeks and Armenians have schools of their own, if they chose to attend. Kurds have also started their own TV brodcasts and language schools, but are now closing them down because there is no popular demand for such institutions; they are commercially unfeasible.

Turkey has no problems with other etnic groups (citizens) in Turkey, least of all the Kurds. No average Turk is dumb enough to wish condemn any Kurds to miserable lives.(you must realize most of the Kurds are moslems, and there has been extensive intermarriage for years betwwen Kurds and Turks: almost any Turk has a Kurdish relative by marriage or vica versa. How can a Turk normally discriminate Kurds, if he has two Kurdish duughter-in-laws and a dozen half breed grandsons? ..or vica versa. Ok there may be some old laws that has to be changed or improved, but even the hottest Kurdish fanatic can not deny that state is genuinly working towards more democracy, human rights, better distribution of wealth etc...not only for Kurds but for all citizens.

Democracy is freedom, yes.

But if and when some members of this emerging democracy decide to use the freedom of democracy to separate a part of the common motherland and rule it independently, or fancy taking up a part of the motherland and sharing it with ethnic brothers of a different country....democracy has the right to defend herself, she is not helpless...

You now have a different opinion on the issue...Pls check the correctness of my slightly too long statement with your nice friend...see where he disagrees, ok?

Dont treat ALL TC members the same way!! Not all of us come here just to learn about "frivolous" things or Turkish Resorts , many of us are TRULY interested in Turkey and all it represents ! Please be more RESPECTFUL and avoid generalizations!! - This goes to the ones who said that most members here are not interested in this kind of affairs!-
Thank you!!!!!
Dilara.

To AEnigma III friend,

US tries to stop Turk incursion in Iraq

By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer 9 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The United States has opened a "diplomatic full court press" to keep Turkey from invading northern Iraq, an incursion that could further destabilize Iraq and the region.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other U.S. officials implored Turkish and Iraqi leaders to work together to counter the threat from the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), the State Department said on Monday as Turkish troops headed toward the border.
Tensions soared after a weekend ambush by rebel Kurds killed 12 Turkish soldiers and left eight missing. Word from Iraqi President Jalal Talabani's office that the PKK would announce a cease-fire was met in Washington with little enthusiasm. Officials cautioned that a temporary truce would not resolve Turkey's long-standing concerns about

By VOLKAN SARISAKAL and CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA, Associated Press Writers
42 minutes ago

SIRNAK, Turkey - Dozens of Turkish military vehicles streamed toward the Iraqi border with heavy artillery and ammunition Monday after Kurdish guerrillas killed a dozen soldiers and claimed to have captured eight in an intensifying crisis threatening to spill into Iraq.

Arab nations joined the U.S. and Europe in urging Turkey's government not to attack suspected guerrilla bases in the Kurdish region of northern Iraq, while Turkish citizens rallied across the country demanding action against the rebels.

Iraq's president claimed the guerrillas would announce a cease-fire. But the rebels denied that, saying a cease-fire they declared in June was still in place.

With tensions worsening, the Turkish foreign minister said his government was pursuing a diplomatic solution to halt rebel operations out of havens in Iraq, but warned that it wanted to see results soon if an escalation in military action was to be avoided.

An AP Television News cameraman saw a convoy of 50 Turkish army vehicles, loaded with soldiers and weapons, including 155-mm howitzers, heading from the southeastern town of Sirnak toward Uludere, closer to the border.

Trucks towing artillery pieces covered with camouflage tarpaulins were trailed by khaki-colored trucks that appeared to be loaded with ammunition. Armored personnel carriers with helmeted Turkish soldiers manning heavy machine guns escorted the trucks.

It was unclear if the vehicles were joining troops fighting with rebels on Turkish soil or were preparing for a possible cross-border offensive, which was authorized by Turkey's parliament last week.

At least five U.S.-made transport helicopters ferrying soldiers and Cobra helicopter gunships also were seen flying toward the frontier.

The Pentagon has said 60,000 Turkish soldiers have deployed along the border. The north is one of the few relatively calm Iraqi regions, and the U.S. fears an incursion by its ally Turkey could worsen the Iraq war.

After weeks of stepped-up clashes between Turkish troops and rebels, tensions racheted even higher after a guerrilla ambush Sunday killed 12 soldiers and left eight missing. The army said 34 rebels died in a counterattack.

The rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party said its fighters captured the missing soldiers — a claim that would make it the largest seizure since 1995, when guerrillas grabbed eight soldiers, took them to northern Iraq and held them for two years before letting them go.

"Right now, these soldiers are hostages in the hands of our forces," a senior PKK commander, Bahoz Erdal, was quoted as telling the pro-Kurdish Firat News Agency in Belgium. "Their health condition is good. One of them was slightly injured, but was being taken care of by our medics."

The claim was sure to intensify the army's search for the soldiers.

Protesters waving the red and white Turkish flag demonstrated in cities nationwide to demand a tough response to the weekend ambush.

"Martyrs never die! The nation will never be divided!" demonstrators shouted in Ankara, the capital. "Martyr" is a term used by Turks for soldiers killed in combat.

Others chanted "Down with the PKK and USA!" Many Turks are angry at Washington over what they consider the failure of U.S. and Iraqi forces to honor pledges to crack down on the group, which is listed by the U.S. as a terrorist movement.

Iraqi Kurds allied with Turkish forces in the 1990s to fight the PKK, a rival in their northern enclave at a time when Saddam Hussein ruled the rest of Iraq. But Iraqi Kurds are now reluctant to attack their ethnic brethren from Turkey, fearing the Turks want to curb Kurdish aspirations for self-rule.

The government said it would pursue diplomacy before it sends troops across the rugged frontier.

"Our preference is diplomacy, but the military option is no doubt a method in the struggle against terrorism," Foreign Minister Ali Babacan said after touring the Middle East to explain Turkey's position.

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, said the PKK would make a cease-fire announcement Monday, but rebels later said they already had announced a unilateral cease-fire in June.

"We're stating clearly that if the Turkish state stops its attacks, then increased tensions will be replaced with a combat-free environment," a rebel statement said.

Turkey has rejected truces declared by the PKK, demanding that the rebels surrender or be killed. The rebels have pressed ahead with attacks on the grounds they are defending themselves against the army.

In Washington, the State Department said the United States had opened a diplomatic campaign to persuade Turkey not to invade northern Iraq. "In our view, there are better ways to deal with this issue," spokesman Sean McCormack said.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he told Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice by telephone Sunday night that Turkey expected "speedy steps from the U.S." in quelling the PKK. He said Rice asked "for a few days."

McCormack did not dispute the account of the conversation but declined to comment on what Rice meant by asking for "a few days."

Erdogan did not specify what he meant by "speedy steps," but he has often urged the United States and Iraq to crack down on the PKK. Turkish leaders say it is the responsibility of those countries to do whatever is necessary to destroy guerrilla bases in northern Iraq.

Steven Cook, a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, noted previous Turkish incursions into northern Iraq had not destroyed the PKK, which has waged an insurgency in Kurdish-dominated southeastern Turkey that has killed some 30,000 people since 1984.

"The PKK is trying to draw the Turks into Iraq to keep them bogged down there," Cook said, saying the rebels hoped prolonged military action in Iraq would destabilize Turkey.

Egypt and Jordan cautioned Turkey on Monday against launching an offensive into Iraq, a reflection of Arab countries' fears of widening the Iraq conflict.

Arab nations traditionally oppose any foreign incursion into a fellow Arab state, and they fear a Turkish attack could fuel separatist sentiment among Iraqi Kurds and increase the danger of Iraq's breakup. But they also have ties with predominantly Muslim Turkey and oppose Kurdish separatist movements.

"I hope that both sides, Turkey and Iraq, will sit together to find a solution to the Kurdish problem," Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said. In Jordan, government spokesman Nasser Judeh said: "We're concerned about Iraq's security, unity and integrity."

___

Sorry for the long post, I need Roswitha to show me how to post the link. I'm not too computer savvy.

Janette,
That is exactly what I mean, when I say people should not be talking out of their depths. Or if they have to talk, they should be using a more modest tone

The concept of race or color discrimination is an element of Western culture and was not even heard of in Turkey, until we were flooded by American movies. Such discrimination as Westerners displayed against native Americans, colored people of Africa, Indians etc..is clearly and strictly banned in Islam and even looked down upon among Turks.

Halfbreed in Turkish is "melez" and carries no insult. In fact the general belief is that melez are physically stronger and esthetically better looking.

Anatolia, our homeland, is not an isolated island like UK. Scores of civilisations have flourished here, remnants of all are still clearly identifiable; you can count more than 20 ethnic groups with equal number of languages (never mind dialect differences within the same language) and just as many different religious beliefs. While you can meet blonde people with green eyes here, it is just as easy to see high cheek bones and slanted eyes of Middle Assia in certain areas..

The word "melez" can not be derogatory in such an environment. How many people, do you think, can rationally claim to be a pure blooded Turk or a Kurd or an Armenian etc. here...

What ever happened to Hittites, Ionians, Frigs, Sumerians, Greeks, Arabs, Persians etc.. who lived on this land? Do you think they were deported to planet Venus upon arrival of Turks?

The word Turk may imply a certain ethnical origin, But it also means people (citizen) of Republic of Turkia. The founder of this republic defined Turkish Nationalism, for those living within the boundaries of this country, by saying HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO FEELS TURKISH (Notice he did not say HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO IS ETHNICALLY TURKISH).

As opposed to separatist racist nationalism like once followed by Germans or what is supported by PKK today.... Turkish nationalism is a unifying umbrella trying to unite people of different origins into a single solid national identity.

Be careful Dilara,
You are beginning to think like me..)))))))))))))

Here the term Half breed is an insult, thats why i found it so shocking to see it used.

Sorry didnt mean to open up another heated debate here.

Janette

BBC News this morning Looks like things are moving along, hopefully in the right direction.

Glad to be able to say I am proud to be a Brit. Well done Gordon Brown

(Turkish news on Gordon Brown's meeting with Erdoğan,at no 10 Downing Street, followed by joint press conference where Brown condemned the PKK. Brown said, "We will stand side by side on terror. We will continue to strengthen our relationship with Turkey. We condemn the PKK, and will work together regarding the PKK.")

This is the difference between a man who knows what he is talking about...and others, who talk through their hats...

classification humans for their races,colours,beliefs.. any worse mind sick?and i think thats always better to trying find trues on valuntary things.Thats really bad to look at life with blinkers and when we take of it easier to understand we each one the memeber of a same large wonderfull family with our own specialites....

thehandsome has surprised me again, very untypical to a turk!

So it is not their hats that the Brits talk through..

But at least Brown makes sense.........