Hi, I was wondering if anyone here on this site had any advice about Kurdish guys. I have met a lovely guy who was born in Turkey but is Kurdish he is from the east but I met him in the south where he has been living for a few years now. I realise that there is a big difference in culture and in what is expected of you but I dont really know much about it all. All I have heard is negative things and I am sure that this cannot be applicable to everyone as he has always been really easy going and actually is one of the most reasonable guys that I have met in Turkey!

I have a kurdish friend form Turkey. I dont see anything wrong at him being kurdish.

Many tourism workers are Kurds from the east.  If they have a "reputation" then it is probably due to the fact that they are treated like second class citizens, have poorer education, low wages and will do anything to get the hell out of Turkey (including using you for a visa, money etc.).

This is unique to that area - you can´t judge all Kurds by these standards.  ANYONE whatever race, living in an isolated poorer country area is going to be different to someone living in a more cosmopolitan city.

I think you missunderstand me, I am not judging anyone infact that is the whole point I am asking this, because to me it doesnt matter where he is from or what background because that sort of thing doesnt come into it for me all that matters is that we are happy, which we are. But whist I have an open mind I have overheard and witnessed negative behaviour towards the Kurdish people in that town and I know that this gets him down and I just wondered what the background was to this. Because he is one of the kindest laid back and hard working people I have me yet the first thing that anyone says to me is be careful he is Kurdish! Of course I dont want to mention this to him directly because I dont want to hurt his feelings as this is not coming from me and as it is a small town I know that this would cause trouble. 

 The background to the Turkish/Kurdish problem has been much discussed here and is an extensive subject.  Do a bit of googling...

Whatever his race/nationality, if you met him on holiday in the South then tread VERY cautiously.  Tourist workers are convincing, clever con men.....  If you didn´t meet him on holiday then just ignore the above

Thanks very much for your advice, I will google it and see what I can find

I didn´t realise that kurdish people were treated any different to Turkish people, and I also didn´t know that they get paid less, and have poorer education, is there some reasoning behind this?

 The lowest grade teachers are sent to the east.... ask yourself why

Like everywhere west is the best.

...

hahahaha that`s the whole issue, you`ve been to Turkey and never witnessed A kurd`s being treated differently, but you will believe that they are treated differently just because some propagandists here and there say so.

Unfortunately they have been treated differently..

Actually..If you check the politics section of the forum, you will see many articles about it.. 

but I have to admit that Kurds have to take the back seats on public buses and use a different entrance to the public buildings.

I think you should go and check the section

 http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTopic_30

This kurdish issue is an embarrassing  issue for all of us..

It is not a few years, not 30 years but since the beginning of  our republic they have been subjected to this treatment..

But very very recently, people in Turkey realised that there was indeed a problem and the problem itself was the racism..

But they are working hard on the issue in these days...Despite the annoyance of the racist and ultra nationalists!!

 This is the most stupid and lack of knowledge post i have ever seen about this Turkish/Kurdish issue...

 So tell us how you really feel Sui...

Teas i would tell all those face to face when you accept a coffee out with me! And I will buy the coffees also!!

Aww...how nice.  I will take a Russian tea biscuit with that....if your buying.

Don´t forget that untill 1991, using the Kurdish language was banned in Turkey. That´s not that long ago! It was even in my lifetime, and I´m as young as a spring blossom

When I talk to people in Turkey, I still notice a lot of racism. I´m getting bored and irritated about it. I have some Kurdish friends, and they are great people. But strangly enough, I´ve also been on the other side My partner is Zaza (google it) and he speaks Zaza and Kurdish, but looks Turkish (whatever that means). We were visiting a touristic place in Turkey, and we were already dressed up for dinner. And there were some Kurdish kids, talking bad about us in Kurdish. Something in the lines of "Look at that slick Turkish guy. He thinks he´s all that with his suit, and his girlfriend. He should just ´bleeeeep´ off" on which my partner replied, in Kurdish "Really, you think I should ´bleeeep´ off?" Shock on the faces of the boys, and they ran away

The only thing I seem to notice about Kurdish culture is bigger families. It´s hard for me to see from the outside what is Kurdish, what is Turkish, what is Arabic, and what is any other kind of culture that can be found in Turkey. It all mixes and blurs at some point. Oh, and I notice the music and dancing ofcourse

I think the best way to understand the person is to know his family and their traditions, customs.

Not only families...

 Bigger feet??

 And you know what they say about big feet.... big feet, big shoes. Man, those Kurdish men have some big shoes!

  Next time I will take more notice

don`t bother, the only thing you will notice is a big belly.

 göbek mi bebek mi  yadaerkeginin turk yastik

 So that is the difference huh....no wonder there is resentment...

 Ehem ehem

no the resentment stems from the Kurds` illusion of having big things like big Kurdistan and big other things wheras in reality, it`s all just mental masturbation and a BIG nothing.

Does anyone know what type of kurdish is spoken in Turkey, I wanted to suprise my guy by sending him something in Kurdish as we usually speak in English or Turkish but I am not sure which dialect it would be as there seems to be two and its very confusing. I think it would be Kurmanji but I would apreciate some advice if anyone knows for sure. Plus if there is anyone who speaks this dialect that would be a great help. Many thanks 

i want everywomen on the planet to be aware, that unless they want to be second wife not to deal with a kurdish man. kurds like arabs, nigerians and afgani men only stick to their own. I know my people ladies just be aware and no you cant tell the difference between a kurd and a turk they are like distinguishing identical twins and some kurds are 10 times more rich than any turk.... 

 Ohhh gosh thanks for the warning!  I´m saved!!!  I´m so glad to be told that men can only live in the stereotype that people label them with!  Whew!

lol, what a comment... Like all Turkish guys are saints who don´t mess around behind the backs of their wives. It´s not like every Kurd has a 5 wives Ladies always need to be aware, because any guy can go with a lot of women. Yes, there are Kurdish guys who have several wives. And yes, there are also Kurdish guys who are not with several wives. I guess you had a bad experience, but don´t discredit millions of men (all the Kurds, Arabs, Nigerians and Afghani men) just because of that experience.

A standard doğrucu barba post

Yeah, I know I judge people on their individual personalities and not on some kind of big vague group like "the Arabs, Kurds, Nigerians, and Afhans" Crazy me. But I thought it was funny to see a statement like "Kurds are not like Turks, be aware"... come on You should always be aware as a woman for a cheating bad a-hole. Turks can be married and be with a bunch of different women as well.

Turkey is the country where everybody is free and it was like that for ages...Kurdish never banned in Turkey, if it was banned, anybody in east of Turkey would speak Turkish now

Turks, kurds arabs are treated second class ppl in all European countries too. in germany, if a person cant speak german; they cant get german citizenship from goverment even these ppl have been  living there for years... so that it is better to compare Turkey with other countries before criticizing on this issue

EXCUSE ME? It wasn´t banned? Are you 10 years old or something? It´s not THAT long ago that you couldn´t sing Kurdish songs, you weren´t allowed to show a Kurdish flag, and stuff like that. Come on, be realistic. Untill 1991 the use of the Kurdish language in public was BANNED in Turkey. It was Turgut Özal who lifted the ban. This is not an idea of mine, this is a FACT. In my European country the use of Turkish in public was never banned. There have been Turkish schools aroud here for a very long time.

I think the Turkey of today is making improvements towards bringing Kurds and Turks together, but don´t pretend like the Turkish goverment never tried to oppress parts of the Kurdish culture.

 As far as I know you have to pass a languagetest to get your turkish citizenship as well after living here for 5 years  Can we say that foreigners are treated like second class people in Turkey then...?

Barba is completely right here. Former Turkish governments were following way too nationalistic policies to realize that it is a natural right for anyone to speak their native language.

This is a problem caused by the common ignorance of the parties involved. On one side, there are the Kurds with medieval traditions and on the other the Turks wishing to part with the mistakes of the past.

We could not raise so many philosophers and pathfinders and we are paying for that lack now.

 Sorry but you are terribly wrong! Let me guess: you are a typical voice. You never dig deep enough to get the truth. You only recycle the garbage on the surface. Don´t let others blind you with their encouraging words like "barba is right here". Well,if not on TV, they could sing their songs in wedding ceremonies, funerals, circumcision feasts and of course in bathroom serenades!  Tell me a Kurdish person who put in jail or punished by fine just because he sang a Kurdish song while putting the cattle out to his village´s pasture, or because he used Kurdish language in the shadow of a willow tree to convince his girl friend (!) to make love with him!  It is you who needs to be realistic here. It was not only Kurdish Language, but also any language used by any ethnic group or minority in Turkey was banned. And it was not a government policy, but a state policy. And it was mainly because to provide the unity of language for better and healthier communication between the peoples coming from over than 40 different cultures and at least 10 languages. We are talking about a new born nation-state in early 1900´s. And you compare it with your Europan country in late 1900´s or early 2000´s. Shame on you! You must be ashamed for putting the apples and the pears in the same basket! Kurdish LAnguage has kept living with its all accents and sub-dialects whereas the other languages almost disappeared from our shared culture. If you need to criticise our state policy about languages, you must cry for those dead languages but not for Kurdish which is alive as it has never been before. Or maybe you are claiming that Turks don´t know how to assimilate a nation (that´s true!), or Kurds can keep living even in any terribly inconvenient circumstances. (that´s true also!   ...And if you are talking about the flag of that terrorist organization, 2 x shame on you! I would like to hear wise words from you, but you sound like a spokesman of that terrorist organization.  

p.s. May God protect me from your and your followers´ wrath because I posted this here. 

Kurdish (amongst other languages) was not allowed to be spoken in public in Turkey. This is a fact, and you know it. You can stand behind this ban if you want, but don´t pretend like it was okay for people to speak Kurdish in front of a group of Turkish police men or something. Yes, people spoke Kurdish (and other languages) inside their homes, but this does not mean that Turkey was a free country for these people at the time. During the ban (let´s take the period of the 1980´s) Turkish schools already existed in Holland. That is the comparison I was making. I think the Dutch government has failed the Turkish immigrants of that time but not putting programs into place during those times that really encouraged people to learn Dutch. This means that a lot of first generation immigrants today do not speak enough Dutch to function well in our society.

I´m not against having one common language, and making everybody learn this language. I am against pressuring people to not speak a language that they feel is "their own". However, my opinion has no effect on historical events. The ban was there, if you or me  or whoever agrees with such a ban or not.

PS: The Kurdish flag predates the existence of the PKK, so therefor I DIDN´T mean a terrorist flag, but a cultural flag.

The ban was there. Shops could not have Kurdish names either, they would close them if you did not change it to a Turkish one.

That is a fact, and things are changing to the better today

(And no, I do not have a Kurdish boyfriend nor am I brainwashed by one )

It does not take that much to study/read history, but you gain a lot from it.

My dad´s side suffered from that ban as they were immigrants from Batumi, Caucasia. I was told ,in my childhood, many times by my grandparents that they were not allowed to use their language in public. The period of time they were talking about was long before 1980´s. So the ban is not only a matter of 1980´s. As I said before, it had been a ban of long years even since the very beginning. They were not allowed to give their traditional names to their babies. And finally, I don´t know the exact date but probably in 80´s, they changed the name of our village (in Ordu province)  into Turkish from Georgian, and the name of our town into Turkish from Greek (Vona= Perşembe)...

Do you want to hear more, or you are only interested in Kurds in Turkey?     

I have never felt that I was banned to speak my native language as a circassian because by the result of Turkey´s assimilation policy my native language became Turkish and I became a perfect product of that policy. Even I don´t care about my ethnicity. I am a stranger to my language and people. I feel as a Turk. I don´t know whether it is good or bad.Overall I am a perfect product. Don´t expect much from me

So, you are a cherkes? How interesting!

Ah.. Them evil Turks and their backwards fascist ways. Why wouldn´t they follow European Standards?

Language Policy in France:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_France

"In 1999 the Socialist government of Lionel Jospin signed the Council of Europe’s European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, but it was not ratified. The Constitutional Council of France declared that the implementation of the Charter would be unconstitutional since the Constitution states that the language of the Republic is French."

"According to French republican ideology (see also Laïcité), all citizens are equal and therefore no groups may exercise extra rights"

Sounds familiar?

"Teaching in regional languages is not supported by the state, despite popular demand asking for recognition of the regional languages."

France´s endangered languages:

"In the 1950s, more than one million people spoke Breton as their main language. The countryside in western Brittany was still overwhelmingly Breton-speaking. Today, about 250,000 people are able to speak Breton (one-sixth of the population in the region), most of whom are elderly. Other regional languages have generally followed the same pattern; Alsatian and Corsican have resisted better, while Occitan has followed a still-worse trend."

Note: I am not trying to say "hey, French do it so we can", rather "Herkes kendi kapısının önünü süpürsün".

First of all, I´m not French so that´s all not my business.

Second of all, two wrongs don´t make a right. What does France´s behaviour have to do with Turkish behaviour? And in France foreign languages or ethnic minority languages are not banned in public, so the level of supression is nowhere near eachother.

Third of all... YES I will always think that it was WRONG for Turkey to ban Kurdish in public. I got really ticked off since somebody started denying that this ever happened. I don´t understand why you are trying to defend such a facist move by saying "look at them, they did it as well." If you think the ban was good, come up with some good arguments. If you think the ban is bad, admit it and don´t make excuses. When I see recent developments like the Kurdish tv network, I think the country is making progress, but that´s my opinion. I can defend that opinion with sound arguments, and I always will.

This was a charter of European council, thus it concerns EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Europe, in fact in the whole western world.

Let us examine this deceit more closely:

So basically we have a country, France, who is a member of E.U and thus bound by its laws and legislations. It has signed but not ratified this particular charter, and it´s waiting for its regional languages to die slowly, most of them are in endangered and dying status anyway. Any sanction or enforcement from E.U? Nope. Any public concern voiced against this? Well I haven´t heard but some Europeans are rather busy throwing **** on Turks from their self claimed moral high grounds so that is expectable.

As I said in my previous post, everybody should clean their own doorsteps first.

This is not Eurovision Song Contest and we are not supposed to be bound by what France or England is doing. 

It makes sense to think that everyone is entitled to holding on to their cultural assets. We don´t need France to confirm this point. We are intelligent enough to draw our own conclusions (as humans).

so u are not Turkish or kurdish...this issue in Turkey is not your business

DJ

xxx

it is obvious to me ... that i should review ´how to comment´ on the forums ... since my post ... and attempt to edit the shit out of it ... was unsuccessful ... lol! apologies!

So you say any attempts to change your mind are fail, you will never change your mind and that we shouldn´t even bother trying? 

If you are firm on your arguements on this, and nothing will ever change your mind, why do you ask questions and wait for the answers then?

You pretend to debate but your goal is not to gain knowledge or seek truth, it is simply to toss out random untruths to see if anyone here is dump enough to believe. 

Sorry...It doesn´t make sense for me to spend time and energy trying to change your mind that can never be changed.

 +1000000000000000000000000000

DJ XXXX

I think Turkey has made much progress in recent years in many aspects of its public policies.  Does work still need to be done?  Of course - None of us lives in a Utopia.  Here in the US, we have no policy ban against other languages, but the sting of descrimination against people of different cultures is still readily felt.  Changing public policies is only one part of addressing descrimination.  It takes the hearts and minds of the people in order truly affect change.  I see this change happening in Turkey.  Maybe not to the extent that some of us would like or maybe it isn´t coming as quickly as the rest of the world believes it should but if there is one thing that I have learned about Turkey it is that the Turkish people will be the masters of their own destiny - as it should be.

Some things are so basic to my personal values, that nothing can change my opinion about it. I think you should all know by now that racism and oppression is one of these points. But, I do like to know where other people come from. Instead of giving me reasons behind not speaking up against the old ban, people just pointed to France or said it never happened. One person said something about their own culture, how they felt Turkish and didn´t speak the old ethnic language of their ancestors. This was the closest to a real argument that I read in this thread. I appreciated that post. I don´t appreciate the "excuses" posts.

I made the point about France not being my business, since France was used as some sort of excuse for the missbehaviour (in my eyes) of Turkey in the past. I´m not going to have a whole discussion on a TURKISH forum about France, since France is neither the topic of this forum, neither is France my doorstep (as response to the "clean your doorstep" remark)

A discussion does not always have as a goal to convince others that your own opinion is right. You can have a discussion just to make the reasons behind your opinion clear. Just because I will always be against racism and oppression, this does not mean that I´m not interested why other support it. I didn´t see many intelligent remarks on this point.

 it means u all foreigners will hide your rubbish under your carpet and will continue criticising Turkey..welldone

DJ xxxx

 Aren´t you too judgmental,canim??? MK XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Why not? He is just repeating your words, canim.

As far as I remember the topic of this thread is the main differences between Kurdish and Turkish societies rather than the problems between them. 

What strange is; not Kurdish people foreigner “girls” begin to talk in an offensive manner. There must be a reason of that! But what I offer to those girls is not to talk about an issue if you don’t know the background of it. You cannot reach the truths just with talking with your lovers, you just provoke others.

I am a Turkish man and Kurdish people are my brothers and sisters. Most Turkish and Kurdish people think the same. The problem is terrorism both for Turks and Kurds. Kurdish people are the most negatively affected people who have being affected of terrorism.

As an answer to the main topic, the biggest difference between Turkish and Kurdish societies is feudalism.  Kurdish society has being managed by feudal leaders. If those feudal leaders assume terrorism is more profitable for their own, they have used their people for it. There can be any countries in the world that does not fight with terrorism. Feudal leaders sacrifice my brothers with no excuse for their own profits. My brothers kill me for their feudal leaders’ sakes.

Please use a bit of intelligence, can a slave say no to his owner? How much individual is a slave? Feudal leaders are the enemies of my Kurdish siblings, not the government.

Now some Kurdish people are offensive against Turkey. I hope they and their girlfriends realize that the reason of their less wellness is their feudal social structure and not being individuals.

Listening to Kurdish songs was not allowed during the most chaotic period of terror. Because anything related to Kurdish was being used by feudal leaders to provoke Kurdish people. Even in this post although the subject was totally different somehow we begin to talk Kurdish problem guess why? Feudal leaders want to increase Kurdish nationalism and use Kurdish people and their lovers as alive bombs or uneducated defenders of their wishes.

I am not saying that government did everything right. First of all Turkish government failed to resolve feudal structure of Kurdish society. Forbids throw Kurdish people to their own assassins’ –Feudal Leaders- arms.  However any government can be perfect.

Turkey has faced with a lot of problems rather than Kurdish problem,. Military coups affected all Turkey; there were conflicts in Fatsa (Fatsa is a town in northern Turkey and the attacks were not towards Kurdish people), Alevi people have been killed in Sivas, Kahramanmaraş etc. these were not conflicts with Kurds. But none of those conflicts turn to be chronically. The problems have been soluted or being soluting by time. Those people didn’t be terrorists. But some Kurds did!

If Turkish Republic was against Kurdish people, one fifth of the first parliament would not formed by Kurdish people. Turkey would not realize its biggest economical project in south east Turkey. (South East Anatolian Project GAP), there would not be Prime Ministers and Presidents of Kurdish origin. There would not be Kurdish high officers or soldiers either. Etc, etc.

I want to finish my very long comment with Turkish schools and so called Kurdish flag and so called Kurdish language ban. Like all acknowledged countries schools established in Turkey, Turkish schools were established in Europe and in other continents. We certainly know that most of those countries also support Kurdish people and terrorism clearly or privily.

Speaking Kurdish has never banned in Turkey. There are millions of people who just speak Kurdish. But those people received public services as much as the ones who know Turkish language. If I were a Kurdish person I would let all my children to learn Turkish. But individuals’ values are not more than cows’ values in feudal structures. Kurdish girls or boys fathers did not let them be educated. Even if there were schools who teach Kurdish they would not send the kids there in order that social structure. Now Kurdish courses are free in Turkey and there are almost any students of those.

There is only one flag in Turkey like all countries. Please never provoke this issue. If foreign powers and feudal leaders let us free we solve everything easily.  Because Kurdish and Turkish people are siblings.

One flag like in any other country? There is not one flag in Holland... The Frisian people have their own language, and their own flag over here. And I´m not going to have a discussion again about how Kurdish WAS banned in public. Anyway, good post. It gives me another side to look from at this issue.

 +100000000000000000000000000

DJxxx

 we have one flag if u have more than one, it is your problem,  we dont care it so it is not our business

DJxxx

I want to add just one more word about a class mate´s claim which tells "least educated teachers are appointed to south east"

I am a development specialist. I want to work in south east Turkey very much because there is the most attractive place for my field of work. However i do not go. You know why? Because I afraid. Now tell me, while an idealist person who wants to go there can not go south-east, how can we expect teachers and doctors to choose there?

But social goverment owns education and heath care responsibilities of all regions in a country. That is why there are 3 years obligatory work for teachers, 1.5 years for doctors and 4 years for security staff.

Gaziantep is also in South East but society of Gaziantep dont support terrorism. Please check thge indicators of Gaziantep about security, education, heath etc. You will realize that Gaziantep is one of the top developed and secure city of Turkey. Now please ask yourself; why is Antep developed but not it´s neighbours?

I think the answer is terrorism. Goverment tries to do its work. She spends taxes to increase social welfare in south east. But isn´t it the time for some Kurdish people to stop supporting terrorism?

Does the terrorist has no mistake?

 Awww, lemoncim,balim...sen bilirsin

da, men wszystko bilyorum

Interesting facts about Gaziantep. It makes me wonder, which came first... underdevelopment or support for terrorism. Which is the cause, which is the effect? I can see how an unstable scoiety, which supports terrorism, will have difficulty to develop itself. On the other hand, if people are poor, and they see that they live in an underdeveloped society, this can actually lead to terrorism. A feeling of resentment of the "have nots"  towards the "haves" Complex, perhaps it is a circle, with no clear cause and effect, but which needs to be broken in any case.

Does it make sense to clear up your mind if i tell you that the GDP per capita of any cities in the south east was almost the same with the ones in the west when the republic was established?

One more thing, Gaziantep was less developed than Van, Diyarbakır and Sanliurfa. But Antep passed them.

Batman owns the largest petrolium sources of Turkey but it is one of the least developed city in Turkey.

Considering all those, i think terrorism is the couse and underdevelopment is the affect.

Be sure me and the people whom i brainstormed with was so critical while we debate on Kurdish problem and the main results of all those debates are;

- Feudal social structure is the biggest problem of the south east

- Foreign countries even Turkey´s allies support terrorism and that support must be cut

- Militarial actions can not be substituted but the goverment has to develop social projects more

What do you mea with foreig countries? Do you mean foreign goverments, or individual people (for example people who have ancestors from the Kurdish region) who give financial or other support?

This is a sensitive subject and one with no easy answers unless you are taking sides. We have been discussing this in various circles for a few decades now. We are still without answers...

Society functions in a weird way. It rarely listens to prescriptions others come up with. It follows its on natural course instead. This course of development can get bitter at times. Sometimes blood is shed, thousands are killed, some clap their hands and some shed tears.

This is not a problem between a singular Kurdish person and a singular Turk. Not a single sentence can depict the complexity of the feud that is going on between tens of millions of people. Furthermore, people are fed misinformation which they hold on to as plain truth. They spent life times believing in things they are told.

Regardless of what your IQ  level is, and what kind of an education you have in your background, you simply can´t understand, nor can you offer solutions for the victims of this feud.

P.S. All my "you"s are literal.

I rather mean governments. But, individuals not blaming terrorism is heart breaking.

From the other side of the planet, I have enjoyed learning Turkish ... a great deal! It is a beautiful language ... with a very historical and beautiful culture ... riddled with evidence of the human ´animal.´ As a human animal, it is reassuring to hear that, all over the world, we all are caught up in similar rubbish at times! Sometimes we are so busy with the minutia in our differences, we lose the key points in our similar matters of the heart and day-to-day living. Dialogs, such as this, and opportunities to learn about each other are wonderful gifts and I enjoy, with great interest, the effort and insight this group demonstrates in getting past the superficial ... and down to the things that really matter. It helps me in my process to grow as a human successfully with my animal tendencies. All the best to everyone! (Thank you for the opportunity to comment.)

I think this is a problem that I see in both sides of this conflict. I knew some people who were very supportive of the PKK (which led to some heated arguments with yours truly ) and I noticed that when this person moved abroad, he changed his opinion. He started to see this issue from different sides, and came into contact with new "sources of information."

In any case, I think the first step in trying to solve parts of the issue, is in uderstanding what the actual problem is. Although, like in any conflict of this sort, there is not one cause and not one solution. For example, the feudal system of the Kurds might be part of the problem, but it can never be the whole problem. Therefor, working against this feudal system can never be the whole solution. But just because I know my limitations, of never being able to understand the full complexity of the problem, doesn´t mean I should stop trying to understand the problem. Nobody ever created something good by giving up, because he/she knew he/she was just one person.

You are right barba mama. Anything related to human is complex. Even if its about just one single person´s decision; lots of different variables affect it. Considering about a group of peoples´ social structures that complexity turns to be quite knotty.

However, all problems has relativly significant reasons. Most problems include sine qua non solutions. And it is not so easy to solve the whole complexity of matters. That is why social scientists focus on most significant reasons of the problems and sin qua non solutions of them. The matter is determining those reasons and solitions closest to the right.

That is why i pointed out just three main reasons and sin qua non solutions of the problem although the there are many more reasons like ethnocentrism, social schizophrenia, migration etc. etc.

Anyway to close this wide paranthesis and turn back to the main topic of the thread; i want to write down a cultural difference between Kurdish and Turkish people. Kurdish society use Davul (a kind of local drum ) and zurna (shrill pipe) very well in their folkloric songs.

Here is a sample; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5POgLdIFQQ

 are u sure davul(drum) and surna used in kurdish culture.??? yes it is used but these instrument are also used in blacksea region  into turkish and greek in greece that was taken by ppl who  moved from blacksea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDt6uEKv_T8

this is not differences between 2 cultures it is common before posting this kind of things, make a search and be sure

DJ

To tell the truth, i wrote it down to talk about sth easy.

Its not so possible to find out differences between two societies which are that stick to each other.

Let me correct my statement as; I like the way Kurdish people play davul and zurna as a guy from the black sea...

I remember a friend of mine was coming from Diyarbakir on a couch, and stopped by terrorists pkk militants(this is a long time ago btw)..And they started to ask questions: they asked my friend to tell them name of  kurdish cities.. My friend told told them Diyarbakir some more cities and then Gaziantep.. He got slapped by one of the terrorists and he said ´since when Antep is kurdish? )

Is it really a Kurdish city? or its population increased by the immigrated kurds whose villages got burt in east?

how about Izmir? It is one of the most developed cities in Turkey..

why are they not supporting terrorism?  

Gaziantep is also in South East but society of Gaziantep dont support terrorism. Please check thge indicators of Gaziantep about security, education, heath etc. You will realize that Gaziantep is one of the top developed and secure city of Turkey. Now please ask yourself; why is Antep developed but not it´s neighbours?

So your answer is; In order Antep is not a Kurdish city it is developed?

Ha ha ha

So you now accept that it is not a Kurdish city..

So, what made you Kurdish cities rebel then?

By any chance ´the wrong Kurdish policies? taking people´s basic rights away like language, identity etc?´ eh? 

I did not say Antep is a city whose population mostly occurs by Kurdish people. I said its in the south east and a developed city.

I think ur anxiousness make you blind. You are not speaking to solve something. You just try to argue. I learned not to argue with blinds. Thats why i dont answer you.

tell me one good reason why I should be anxious?

All I am telling you that it was not a wise idea to give that example..you could have given Izmir for example as comparision?

Actually, with that example, you have explained yourself what went wrong with the Kurds!!

It is very simple: if you deny people´s basic rights like we did to Kurds, people would rebel!!! (and people who tend to deny these things, always accuse the others as being terrorists)

That is the summary..

You totally miss the point. What is more pathetic is you think that you say something logical.

Gaziantep is the best example in a thread which says " Terrorism is most harmful for the society living there" Also which say, "the society must stop to support terrosits bloody sakes"

So even Antep is the neighbour of those cities, in order the people there dont support terrorism, it is now more developed.

BTW according to your point of view, the girls who are forbidden to enter the university becouse of they wear scarfs has rights for rebel!

What a parochial! Killing people is not allowed for some people who think that their rights are restricted!

Do you want Turkey to be like Congo?

I dont think I am the one missing the point here..

You are giving a name of city which is not  kurdish city by population..And you are saying that ´look they are developed because they are not supporting terrorism´ (you could have given Izmir as comparison in that respect really. It also show how far away you are from understanding what the problem is)

Then I am saying to you that yes..they are developed but the population of that city was not Kurdish and their basic rights were  not denied like its neighbour cities..

Go and tell Gaziantep people that ´ah actually, there are no Turks in this country and you are not Turks you were Dutch who visited Antep years ago and settled and Turkish is not allowed anymore, you all have to speak something else´

See if they are rebelling or not!!

I dont want Turkey to be Congo of course, but if we leave Turkey to be run by people who think ´suppressing people´s language/identity etc is a normal thing and if they object they are terrorists´, Turkey will split..

I am sorry. You miss the point.

You know there is a significant arabic population in Antep, Turkish and Kurdish as well. So its a mix! There is a common point of them; they do not support terrorism. Thats why there is more developed.

Noone cares about anyones identity or language. The matter is terrorism.

There was no point to miss really..

Giving a non kurdish city as an example and saying that ´look how developed they are because they dont support terrorism was not a ´clever´ idea.

 If only the problem were as simple as you make it out to be, then we could give them those basic rights back, and let the problem solve on its own.

I have many Kurdish friends (of different political views, different religious sects, different lifestyles) like some of you do, that almost all of them see the problem different than you are describing. To whom should I believe? You or them? 

It would be difficult to believe that they are fighting, killing and being killed for extra 2 or 3 letters to add to their alphabet, or to take their "place names" back. They are probably not a good reason for them to die, are they?

And, please, stop making it look like all the Kurds support pkk and voted for DTP in the last elections. They got 5.7 % of the votes.(at least 15% of the voters are Kurd) This is because pkk cannot force the Kurdish voters living in western Turkey to vote for the political party they don´t want to vote for. Or maybe you think only 5.7% of the voters are Kurd!

I am suspicious about that 5.7% as well. In rural areas they voted for DTP because they were threatened by the terrorists otherwise they would be target of some terrorist acts by PKK had they voted for some other parties.

 That´s true. They often go to vote in the shadow of guns and some call it democratic. 

No one can be despised solely on the basis of  his etnic roots.

Any etnic group that breeds terorists however, should be treated with extreme caution...Not because of their etnic origin, but because they breed terorists.

 You should ask the same question about Diyarbakır: since when Diyarbakır is Kurdish?

Look at this:

http://www.madenliyiz.biz/news.php?readmore=9

Did you count how many Armenian employees worked for the local government in the years between 1869-1905?

Look at this also:

http://www.akader.info/sbard/sayilar/2005Eylul/18.pdf

Did you count how many Armenian schools were in Diyarbakır for example in the year 1869?

What happened to those poor Armenians that they all disappeared from the city and remain only as dry numbers in historical documents as in those above ?

Kurds occupied the cities abandoned by Armenians?

Do not Kurds have Armenian blood on their hands?

And read this:

http://www.armenian-history.com/Nyuter/HISTORY/G_Moumdjian/kurd_4.htm

It is a biased article accusing Turks more than Kurds (for political reasons of course) but yet it will make you open your eyes to more of what was/is going on. (if you are interested!) 

Sorry if seeing Kurds and Armenians massacrating each other to the last man makes your stomach turn...

Does it also go for religious groups?

 exactly

I´m sorry, but I do´t "handle" the Turkish people I meet with caution, just because I know some muslim idiots are terrorists. And there is also such a thing as a Turkish terrorist.

Religious terorists are no better than ethnic terorists....Terorists are bad and should not be protected or defended whatever their origins may be.

You must have sufficient brains to differentiate between "Turkish people" and "Turkish terorist" before you enter into this discussion.

If you know the difference, what is your problem?

And if you have no words, filtered from your supposedly wisdom, to say something about the term ´turkish terrorist´, just shut up! (instead of insulting). If you have, then we are all ears!

You said, and I quote "Any etnic group that breeds terorists however, should be treated with extreme caution...Not because of their etnic origin, but because they breed terorists." ... Well, Turks have brought forward terrorists, so I must handle Turks with caution, accordig to your own logic. Or are you telling me that there are different rules for Turks? Handle with caution, except when it´s a Turk?

And this reply is a ´check mate´

You are too clever Barba!!

Oh..

You want to change the subject now..do you? 

So, you think that they should accuse Kurds not Turks. And Kurds have blood on their hands.. do you?

So , something happened there in 1915 and what happened would turn your stomach turn..is it true? 

Thanks for that. In my next column I will touch briefly who were actually did the massacres during 1915.. (Kurds  will be in the list as well as immigrants from Caucasia and released prisoners)

I am thanking you for a few things:

a- You are a great proof for the idea that ´though Turks deny what happened in 1915, but many of them THINK that something terrible happened´

b- You are also a great proof that why Turk in ´ne mutlu Turkum diyene´ means Turkish ethnicity only.. When there is something wrong or something embarrassing is done-such as honour killing etc- ´They are not Turks, they are Kurds!!!´ .. But when it comes to defending andimiz ´nooo..everybody in Turkey is called Turks´..yes yes.. we believe you.

And also, you have to be a kind of blind person not to see PKK´s support between the Kurds..

The election results (almost all Kurdish cities are from the kurdish party) is a proof for that.

Some one above was  saying that PKK was threatening the voters and the elections are done under the arms so it is not democratic..Peh yani.. if it was left to you guys, you would even ban elections for the Kurds!! 

How about the original question....the difference between Turkish and Kurdish cultures? As I understand it, there are Christian, Jewish and Muslim Kurds. Of the Muslim Kurds, there are Shia and Suni, as well as Alevi and Yazidis.  This leaves the question, what exactly is a Kurd?

Most of the killings happened during the relocation. They were attacked by the Kurdish gangs (if the people living there are Kurds, they must be Kurds right?).

There is a paradox here. Those who aim to part Turkey claim that that area is Kurdistan because the area is populated by Kurds. But when it comes to Armeanan who were killed in 1915 they say that they were killed by Turks.

This is very similar to the paradox: Kurds are Kurds when they are asylum seekers but Kurds are Turks when they are heroin smugglers.

You forgot the most important type: there are also Indian Kurds!

Hence, that brings the answer: A Kurd is exactly an Indian in southeastern Turkey.

There is a certain gemeral perception about almost the entire people in South East and to a much lesser extent those in East Turkey: these are predominantly feudal people who are still going through a transformation from a social order that entails tribes, extremely large extended families gathering around local lords whom they serve without getting paid for anything other than the most basic human needs. This is a setting where human rights in the sense perceived by Western standards is impossible. People are taught to obey their masters and rely on their permission for any individual decision that include traveling from one place to another, marriages etc. There are usually conflicts  among these tribes which result in feuds. Younger members of the family, especially those under 18 are used as hitmen to settle open accounts. Usually, the lives of people in these clans are expendable whenever there is a benefit. These people often have 5-10-15 or more children and the spree goes on until the family has enough boys to defend it.

These aspects of the South Eastern population and their obvious discord with the life in big cities have always created a problem. These people have moved from the East to West some finding their way in European countries. They were usually scorned, looked down on and severely criticized for being so backward. Not only in Turkey but also abroad. 

Based on this, we can conclude that the Kurds are indeed the Indians of Turkey. Nevertheless, the Indians have a culture that places utmost value to nature. Despite being primitive compared to the Western civilization, there are many enviable aspects of their culture.

On contact with these people, early American settlers did not want to integrate them into their societies. They labeled them according to their skin color and the blood. Color and blood were two aspects that separated them from others. In Turkey, Kurds are not treated with racial consciousness. The problems is about their social character...

That´s a very interesting briefing on the Kurdish society and culture, Vineyards. Thank you.

There is a serious tendency between Turks about belittling Kurds and their culture and trying to show them as backwards and primitive as possible.  According to them, they represent the ´better´ class in Turkey.. They want to put a ´clear line´ between themselves and the Kurds who are culterless/feudal/primitive/backwards people.. Because some of them tend to have bigger families..Some of them listen to their feudal leaders..They dont speak Turkish well..blah blah..

This is not a big surprise to me as I know very well that every nationalism requires its enemies to live. There is always ´us and them´ for every one of them. Since we all are Turks and some of the people coming out and daring to say that ´no we are not Turks´, then they become ´the others and the enemy´. It would be a huge surprise for the nationalists to accept another people than Turks, same as Turks in this country.. Because they all grew with these nationalist sentiments as mentioned in andimiz.. We Turks are a glorious nation..How dare someone ´rejects to become a Turk or rejects to say he is a Turk´? Since the core of these sentiments is the Turkish nationalism, anything other than Turks, in these soils, not worthy to respect!!

They will not hesitate to label all of the kurds as primitive because they think ´all Kurds are feudal´. They wont realize that saying that as ridiculous as calling all Turks in Europe as people who sell kebap.. (I call those people in Europe uncultured most of the time.. Not racist, in this case,  because the sheer categorisation in ´all Turks are doner people´ is so primitive.. same as as calling all Kurds as feudal/tribal with extendend families!!)  

Tribal leaders who owns the land is not only Kurdish thing..There were many ´Agas in the west too as large land owners who expolited the poor.. There are still some ´Agas´ in the east but with the less extend...They are changing..If there are still some feudal leaders there, it is because the Turkish state supporting them.. Check all those local militias/korucu and their asirets -feudal clans- etc... It is the state giving the feudalism an extended life.... (btw..I have to say, almost all Kurdish groups including pkk fought against the feudalism and feudal leaders..)

Anyway..This is a long argument..We should try to avoid to show OUR poorest citizens as anti-modern. Of course, some Turks who turn their faces and bums to the west, love to portray them as ´a backwards race´. They love to say ´Kurds are  primitive and it is given to them by god and it is natural´..Calling Kurds ´you dirty feudal thing´ makes them relaxed..Makes them feel better. ´Kurds have to show gratitude that they were given a chance to call themselves Turks´

And yes..Kurds are our Indians and they have a culture (as we were discussing in another thread..And their culture is thriving . You can understand why some people get irritated with  the idea of Kurdish culture being thrivied, because so long they tried to believe that Kurds were primitive people with no culture. This is a shock for them)

The problem has never been anybody´s social character..The problem has been Turkish nationalism-racism.

Well, all your messages are colored too. In fact, they are as colored as those from nationalists. I hate to get personal with you but I think and many of us will agree, you are quite a  bit predictable. You keep saying the same things that seem to come from a single book which divides people into poles and judges them according the labels they bear.

Admittedly, I did not read your message beyond the first two paragraphs. Truth be told, you  don´t write opinions but reactions that could best be conveyed by opening the window in the middle of the night and shouting in anger. Just like any message conveyed that way, it irritates people rather than gaining their approval or consent.

You might complain about the tone of this post but before doing that you should browse through your past messages where you labeled people at will. If you stop pouring out all your anger on us the nationalist types and begin writing opinions. Only then can I answer you with opinions.

Going back to the recent post, do you think Kurds do not live in extended families? Can we say they are generally much more civilized people than what I depicted. You may claim all of this is Turkey´s fault but you cannot change the reality. I am 43 years old and have have traveled extensively. I have no problem hanging out with Kurdish friends, we often discuss with them these matters too. The things they tell me about their culture are mostly in line with my previous message. Many of them don´t mind making self-criticism

For example, several of my friends told me about honor killings committed because of unsubstantiated suspicion. A girl´s life is pretty much expendible should she be caught flirting with her boy friend. Now there is a difference here and we can not make it disappear by quoting verses from that neo-liberal, socialist mumbo-jumbo.

Yes I agree with you. He´s so predictible. Turks did this and that to Kurds. Turks are responsible for all the bad thing about Kurds, blah... blah... blah... According to me, he´s anything but Turkish disguised in Turkish dress (nice tactic by the way).

And yes I don´t bother myself with reading whole of his posts either. Read the first sentence, you will get the idea. Same all same all.

+10000

I agree with you, si++. thehandsom pretends as a Turkish,  but I bet he is not. In fact, he seems a Kurdish nationalist propagandist in this forum, and an Armenian nationalist in another forum. My personal opinion, he has not contributed any help in this website till now. He continuoysly and ironically abuses and insults Turks, the history of Turks and the State. On the other hand, our respected administrators just watch his game and do nothing for calling him to be more sensible. The administrators, please be fair, be reasonable! This is not something about speech of freedom. I personally respect all kinds of humanrights. I don´t have any problem with my Kurd  brothers (If they are not terrorists) and millions of Turks feel and think like me towards our Kurd people. In fact, altough there are slightly differences, we are same people. After living thousands of years together, you look like eachother naturally. But there are people, like thehandsom, they insist on making us apart. Just read all thehandsom´s posts, you will see that he always tries to create or show an image of hostility between Turkish and Kurdish people. For more than 30 years, the PKK has been trying to start a civil war between two people, between brothers, and they use the media people also for their ideology, but they couldn´t be successful till now, and I strongly believe that they will never be. So, it seems that this thehandsom man is also serving PKK´s horrible purposes. Maybe that organisation gave him this duty (to misinform the turkishclass users about the happenings in Turkey, and gain more supporters for PKK). But as an educated, 50 years old man, I have seen many times, such people, like thehandsom, who are not just a simple, innocent, intellectuals. They intentionally serve for some organisations. 

So, my request from the administrators: Please warn this man to be more sensible and more empathetic towards Turks too. If he continuously insults Turks and gives wrong information about Turks and Turkey, he will make some young Turks angry with him and they will start abusing him. I think that is the thing he wants in this site: He wants to prove that how nasty Turkish people are.

Maybe such  heated debates on sensitive matters can be stopped in TC. Otherwise many people like me starting to think that the administrators and some foreigner users of this site just watch and enjoy the tiresome and detestable game of the handsom.

One more thing: I wonder if there is any relation between gezegen and thehandsom? Can it be possible that these nicknames and accounts belong to the same person? Because their styles and mockeries look like eachother so much.

Just ignore Handsome as I do! Becouse he is just a provaker!

yawning here!... how rapidly the lullabies change!... recently they all begin with ´I agree with you´... yawning again...  once they begin so, the rest is predictable and hence impossible to be listened to till the end... I am at the point of falling a sleep here... yawning... yawning...

Opps!... Just noticed this now. Metehan, you know what? You sometimes make me smile, no matter what you write about. I am sincere and serious! You contribute to this forum with your color, and I like it.

However, I won´t hide that you broke my heart, since you have failed to recognize my style. That´s me, metehan, remember, cyrano, AllTooHuman, Cirque du Soleil, pagliaccio!

 I think it is thehandsom who sends us to sleep with his long and predictable posts. 

Don´t yawn too much, there is a yawning before you!

I told you above, I like you! 

Ha ha

Dont forget, we still are going to eat water melon together..

I think as an over all post, it is really comical.. You made me roll off my chair..

Seriously!!

"Calling respectable admins to call me to be more sensible" was the best part in your post. I was reading your post from the begining and saying ´oh now I am a kurd and a propagandanist and then oh an armenian too´ and suddenly the idea of Trudy, sending me a PM ´Dear thehandsom, I am calling you to be more sensible.. Regards Trudy´ made me start laughing..

I can not see anything to response in your post for me-do you see anything yourself?- , but please keep posting, you are funny!!

Greetings Metehan,

Don´t waste your time for respnding to a (creative) troll.

Creative trolling

The nature of trolling is to be disruptive, and one of the most disruptive things that can be done is to find new ways to cause trouble that are not quite against the rules. No matter how great your definition of trolling may be, a dedicated troll will find something you have not thought of yet.

I really think you should stop wasting your time with the above subject..

Because you are showing what is insult to you by trying to insult me with saying that ´ah you are a Kurd but disguised as a Turk´!!! (you are shooting yourself on the foot)

Can you see how it looks like/or may look like  from a non Turkish person´s point of view?

-I am saying that ´I am  Turk and I would not blink my eyes to say I am a Kurd so If I was one´.

-You are calling me in a heated debate as ´being a Kurd´. Obviously, you are not trying to compliment me..do you?

- Dont you think that , you are showing ´calling somebody a Kurd or an armenian is an insult´ hence it is not a nice thing? 

why do you think "belonging to a race like Ermenian or Kurdish should be an insult but not belonging to another race like Turks"? What do you think people will think about YOU? eh?

Please yani..

I never used the word Kurd for anybody. Please pay attention to the red bold text. Anybody can go ahead and prove me wrong by quoting it if I did so.

Ooops..

Sorry..I carried away..Not this time..You never used the word Kurd in your post..But I remember you once said ´if I was an Armenian amongs us´ or something similar..-I think it was in Turkish.. am I wrong?

I carried away because somehow we were talking about my ethnicity in my column, despite the fact that it is not related to the topic..

yes I said it but in what context? I explained why I said so. But your native language probably  is not Turkish and naturally you misunderstood me.

Well

Again, you are wrong...My native language is of course Turkish

So, since I misundersoot you when you were saying to me ´you must be an Armenian amongs us Turks´  was a complimentray comment when we were arguing on the matter, I wont insist further

If you want I can explain it here again. But later, I gotta go now. Nadal-Söderling match is due to start.

Lets go back to some basic definitions first :
Definition of racism:
Many definitions are around ..According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. (from wiki)
According to wiki also it says "According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic  discrimination."
So ethnic discrimination or "to distinguish a race or a nation as being either superior or inferior to another racial group" is called racism.. 
 
Lets try to understand what people regard in Europe as racism.. just two examples!!:
 
-Kilroy an ex BBC presenter said a few years ago:
We´re told that the Arabs loathe us..... we admire them for being suicide bombers, limb-amputators, women repressors?´ and he was sacked by BBC as being "racist". 
 
-BNP (British national Party) says  "all Pakistanis are raping young girls. They all want Sheria etc". They are the racist party in the UK.. 
.. 
Well..I can keep writing here many many examples to show what remarks categorized as ´racism´ anywhere in the world. 
(apart from Turkey. Because as usual we have our own definition of the things and the definition of nationalism and racism are ´tiny bit different´ )..
 
I tried to explain in my some other posts why there is such a difference:
 
The biggest racist party in Europe is in my country unfortunately.. 
They almost get 20% of the votes.. 
And their racism or their ideas are not treated like they would be treated in Europe. Because, the nationalism has been one of main pillars of our republic, the racists are treated in Turkey as ´ahh..The boys took it to a BIT extreme level..You naughty boys you!!´. In Europe, being a racist is not a thing you can be proud of..That is the reason why all the racist parties try to prove they are not racist. But in Turkey, they are treated as extreme-nationalists. For some, they are heroes..
 
That is the reason, sometimes a Turk can call 20% of Turkish citizens as ´all Kurds are backwards, all of them all feudal, they tend to have larger families, All of them are primitive, they are all tribal people and these are their social character´ and MAY THINK NOTHING IS WRONG WITH IT
 
(I am not even going into how wrong it is from social science point of view as far as ´feudalism/capitalism and the transition from feudalism to capitalism´ are being concerned. They have rules about how/when they exist, how they don´t..you can not come up and say ´ah these people are all feudal´ as if they have always been and they will always be.. Please..be serious bit)
 
Well, look at the definition of racism.. "distinguish a race-nation as being either superior or inferior to another racial group"; look at the examples I have given, look at "what is categorized as racism in the world"!!!
 
How can we categories the words ´Kurds are all tribal people with no culture and we -Turks- want to integrate them -as opposed to what Americans did to Indians- but the problem is their social character´?
informative post?
 
Phew!!  Such a shame!!  
 
ps..I am not asking anybody to get personal with me!! In fact, looking at the previous events and experiences, it is not advised either!!

Let me clearly state my opinion here: "Nobody should insult or criticize somebody just because of he/she belongs to another nation". That is the ugliest thing! We can´t chose our origin, therefore no one can blame us just because of our origin. But we can accuse and blame people if they continuously insult our history, people and culture; specially, if they do it in favour of another nation. Ofcourse, we will be against of Armenian terrorist because they have attacted to innocent Turkish civilians. We will definetely protest the cheap Armenian propagandists due to their false writings on Armenian-Turkish question. But we can never be enemy of simple, ordinary Armenians. We can´t be against of any nation, just because it is another nation. I hope I made clear my opinion and attitude about the nations.

Let´s come to your stuation, thehandsom: Can you please tell me what kind of Turk you are? The only thing you do in this forum is sending the posts in which you always try to give a false image about Turkey and Turks. At the same time, you try to create an innocent, sympathetic (like freedom fighters) image of either Armenian terrorists or Kurdish Terrorists. Many foreigner users in this site are not aware of what has happened in the past and what is happening in the present of Turkey. You insistently misinform them about Turkey and Turkish people. If anyone does a little research on Turkish history, he/she can understand that racism is against our nature. If we had applied racist politics in the past (1000 years) there could be no other nation in Turkey or in the countries ruled by Turks. Many people who belong to different communities, have different origins had been appointed as high burocrats during the Ottoman State. There were many nations under Ottoman rule and no nation lost it´s identity, language and culture. Therefore, just give up accusing the Turks being racist. That attitude and the ideology is totally strange to us. Everbody knows that such ideologies have been produced in West by western thinkers, then spread out all the countries.

Lastly, if you are a just, honest person and don´t have some hidden intent, when you write something in this site, express the different views on the subject. Don´t be one-sided.

One more thing: Don´t we have any good qualities deserving to be mentioned? Are we totally bad? Nothing good with us in the past and present? Just try if you can find someting better to write about Turks.

You are begining to remind me like Iraqi late (mis)Information minister Comical Ali..

Oh oh oh..

So we never had racism..eh? Are you serious?Would you like to check where the biggest racist party in Europe? dont call them-MHP- racist? What about people publicly coming and saying ´ah our Kurds are primitive and you supporting it?´What about murderes of Dink, Ali Agca, all those racist /fascist murderers?.. Dont you have any idea about them? do you know who they are? where have you been living all this time??

So it is all evil west, is it?

So now you begin to start my Turkishness now..eh? I dont think you should really..

And you want to compare Ottoman times in which almost nothing  to do with race at all, with nationalistic ideas of our time? Have you ever read anything about these things? Did you know Kurds rebelled as soon as they learned our republic  would be a single nation state comparing to multinational structure of Ottomans?

I will tell you prove me where I tried to create innocent, sympathetic (like freedom fighters) image of either Armenian terrorists or Kurdish Terrorists..One example..show me one example about it? -ah but according to you talking about Kurdish rights means supporting terrorism..is it not? or me saying that ´we Turks should not call our Kurds as backwards´ means supporting terrorism according to you..is it not? (ON the contrary. I am the one trying to tell you that how we can stop terrorism by cutting all its blood supplies to it by giving natural rights to OUR own people, you are the one coming with -leave it as it is situation/terrorism only/western orientated etc- in which we lost 70.000 people.. Dont you see which position you are?!!!)

From your posts, I can see you are simply naive and not knowing great deal about it!! But please, dont push it..

As a foreigner I have met and spoke to many Turkish and I would unfortunately have to agree,that racist remarks exist.  I have heard on numerous occasions " Oh yes the kurds are (*&^%^&&^ all negative comments ) but we are living in harmony we don´t have a problem with kurds. I have also heard half-breed  referrals for everyone who is not 100% Turk

I am not going say anything about the politic because I can find that everywhere on internet. I  think originally this forum was started for us foreigners to understand the cultural differences - like food or holiday festival activities.

http://www.usm.maine.edu/lac/ot/divman/Kurdish.pdf

http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/turkey-country-profile.html

hope that helps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ei65sebL1U

http://www.selenasol.com/selena/struggle/kurds.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeaGHBL06rc

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071217193558AAemz2T

http://marmarisfans.com/index.php?s=7c3f4ef57487d94131ead0287778736d&showtopic=898&view=findpost&p=14803

I looked at your links briefly..

Tut tut tut..

They wont like you!!!

do you want a formal welcome to the forum message? (I am the head of welcoming comittee here ) 

I don´t think (not being liked) will harm me I would prefer someone to find the errors in the thousand of articles written and debate it instead.

Will your welcome include a nice cake or cookies and some good coffee I will gladly accept

Self appointed ..." (I am the head of welcoming comittee here )  " ... I may add.

 I think the original name of the site is "TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS FREE ONLINE TURKISH LANGUAGE RESOURCE", but as you can see some people just occupied the site. They never talk about the language, culture, food, holiday festival activities. They have limited subjects: Armenian and Kurdish "Question". That´s all they want to talk about. It is clear that what they are doing here is their professional job which has been given them by somebody or some organisation. Their duty is cursing, blaming, insulting and criticizing the Turks, their life, culture and social structure. You can not get true information from them. Because their starting point is not truth. They are here just to misinform the people who are not well-informed yet about Turkey and Turks.

Maybe the administrators should stop these people sending rubbish informations on the same topics, soon, then the TC. Forum will become again a really informative, helpful and enjoyable one for both foreigners and native users.

I disagree.  Most people posting on the ´political´ threads also do translations and post about turkish culture - especially music, literature and food.  Maybe you never get round to those posts but they are certainly out there.

But you do realize your experiences are subjective?  They are your experiences.  How many Turks do you know, how long have you known them, from what sectors of societies are they?

I have been in contact with various sectors from Turkish society for years. In that time I have heard no anti Kurdish statements. In fact, I didn´t even realize some of the people I knew were Kurds, Laz, Çerkiz and so on until recently.  Everyone presented themselves as Turkish citizens. The unfortunate birth of the PKK changed things.

I´ve spent time in Turkey at social events were different ethnicities were together and I saw no social tension. It really appears to me this is an external fabrication. The old divide and conquer strategy.

I have heard no half breed comments. The very idea is absurd. There are very few ethnicly pure "Turkic" people in Turkey. Even then, what "Turks" are you talking about? You do realize there are many different Turkic groups, don´t you?

 So, do you think that they have right to continue their nonsese activities? Is it so difficult to say that "Yes, the name of this site is "Turkish Language Class" and we want to hear something meaningful, something which deserve our attention, something which make us feel better, think better related to Turkey? Is it so hard to say those people "Hey, that is enough! You have done your duty more than enough and we don´t want/need to hear anymore about that disgusting and insulting comments about Turkish people and the country.

Just imagine, you are an English and this could be an "English Language Class" site. If do some foreigner and  native users of the site had kept on criticizing and abusing British Government, people, and their attitude towards Irish people, how could you feel? Don´t you tell them that "Just a minute, this is an English Language Class website and what you are doing here is not good. You lied enough about our country and people, now it is time to change the subject and talk something better?".

errrrr uhmmmmmm I never said I have not spoke to Turks that do not mention this because I have and I have but I was saying that you can not be blind this does exist. I was debating the suggestion that metehan2001 had made that it does not exist. I do agree that this is subject all to personal opinion. I am not saying anything wrong about the Turkish people they have brought to this world many good thing and also have a wonderful rich history. I was merely stating I have heard this personally and I can find this on websites to substaniate a problem. That was all. All in all my introduction to turkish culture and  hospitality has been wonderful but in every country including my own there are issues that exist. Back to you ..... and where is my coffee and cookies I would love some Turkish desserts too please

I was disagreeing with your comment that ´these people´ never talk about Turkish language or culture.  

I am English - we are well used to foreigners criticizing and abusing our government and institutions, especially among those who have chosen to live there.

No-one on Turkish Class has influenced my personal opinion of Turkey and the Turkish people -I can make up my own mind. 

 We do it enough ourselves, so if others wanted to do it as well, the more the merrier

Here is what you said.....: "As a foreigner I have met and spoke to many Turkish and I would unfortunately have to agree,that racist remarks exist.  I have heard on numerous occasions " Oh yes the kurds are (*&^%^&&^ all negative comments ) but we are living in harmony we don´t have a problem with kurds. I have also heard half-breed  referrals for everyone who is not 100% Turk"

The impression you gave, by omission, is that this negative comments and more are common in Turkey.

No coffee and cookies from me....and no Turkish desserts either. I am not a Turk and do not posess that hospitality. If you are nice I may reconsider, but I don´t give unwarranted rewards.

Exactly!  I originally put something similar  in my post - but I was rambling on a bit and took it out before I posted!  

I think you missed his point, he was addressing that on this site many people write deflamatory remarks against Turkey and in reality there are enough of those sites elsewhere. Here is to be a welcome to Turkish Language and perhaps some interesting and nice facts to show off some of the culture. Personally I can go to anyweb page to find bad things to read but when I am here as a foreigner I would like to see the positive side of wanting to learn the language, history and culture. I am surprised that this exists on here as your welcome letter to me states a pleasant time from the admin.  I have read so many slanderous and bad articles on here about turkey - actually more than positive

OK point taken - but my point was that I have not been influenced by this type of comment - don´t you think most sensible, educated people (as most of the regular site members are) will be the same?  Do you think people have actually been put off visiting Turkey because of comments made on the site? 

 +10000 and more

Can you show us about those ´deflamatory remarks against Turkey´? can you show any bad things you read? can you give some examples? I know there were some belittling Kurds, calling ethnic minorities as backwards etc going on but plewase give us some more example!!

"slanderous and bad articles on here about turkey" any examples? Any thing you thought might be lies?  When I see some of my county men going racist (subsequently giving bad names to all Turks and scaring the foreigners from coming to Turkey) I always object and warn them..

Can you prove any of those things you mentioned above? any of them? only one of them?

How embaresing to see some of my country men trying to resort to cencorship as if we are living in a military dictatorship.. It is like 1980´s Turkey.. Some one tries to tell some real things about Turkey, jail him; silence him... Important thing is what are the foreigners think.. As if foreigners are stupid and unable to see what is what!!

 If you do something wrong yourselves in UK , try to stop it. The case is not the same with Turkey. Turkish Government and people are not in a war with our Kurdish people. We are all citizens of Turkey and have the same rights. Just a small amount of Kurdish people live in South-East Region of Turkey and some Turkish people also live in the same region. More than the Kurdish people living in the mentioned area, millions of them live in the west and other region of Turkey. They are our neighbors, friends and family members (there are millions of marriages between Turks and Kurds). So, even if one thinks a discrimination between Turks and Kurds, it is not possible to realize it. 

Turks and Kurds are not hate eachother but both hate  PKK Terrorist Orgazisation which aims an independent Kurdistan in South-East Turkey through cruel and horrible attacks. Almost every weak a hurtful news comes on tv and newspapers: The PKK attack caused some Turkish soldiers´ death in the regon. We have been keeping on listening those news for 30 years, and naturally some Turkish young and illiterate man or some Turkish people who lost their family members in PKK attacks, get more angry and start blaming PKK and Kurdish people in general. But this doesn´t mean that any sensible ordinary Turkish gets angry and against Kurds. Well, a provocateur can take some small incidents and show them as sample or proof of Turkish hate towards Kurds in general.  But this is not true. As an ordinary and typical Turkish person I declare once more here: "I don´t have any problems with Kurdish people and there is no disrimination for Kurdish people in Turkey. You can not take single examples as if they are in general.

Ok I am telling Metehan, ´hey that is enough, you have done your duty more than enough-we dont want to hear you insulting Turkey anymore´ -This is really embarresing for me for example..people will think everyone in Turkey is like you!!! btw..who is paying you to do this?

Anyway, I think again, I will ask you to prove any of the lies you are mentioning !!! if you can not than we have to talk about who is a lier I am afraid..

ps..You are doing the same thing in my columns..coming and copying and pasting something, crying, calling admins to tell me off or be sensible, jumping up and down etc..But I wrote overthere..´here are things I have written..take them , line by line, critisize them, tell the truth according to you.. If you can..

can you?

I really think that you are abit naive about these things. Because you are talking like our ex  dictator Kenan Evren would talk..It is exactly the same way..You dont have ideas about these subjects; you did not read; you did not investigate; you have just believed what you were told; and they were telling lies to you!!..Please stop..

 ummm did I say you were any of the above ? no I made no comment that I thought you were ..Me senses a bit of defensiveness 

 You are talking like a child. I am a 50 years old man and educated enough. If you want to be enlighten I can do it too, for free. Just go to the links I gave in my columns and read the reports about the Armenian and "Kurdish" Issues you are talking about continuosly, then you will see how you tell lies in your columns. I proved everything there. Well, are you getting crazy because your nasty game in this site finishes?

By the way, I don´t think there is any similarity between me and Kenan Evren. I have never liked him either. You are just a dreamer, you see something never exists. I don´t like dictatorship too, but it seems that you and your supporters want this site under your dictatorship. If somebody shows the other side of the locket, you become angry and starting to accuse him as "racist, fascist, supporter of dictatorship, against humanrights. etc." I am telling you and the people who are participator of your game: Please stop, this meaningless game. Many people sent mails to me and they said that they are fed up your baseless accusations. Everbody wants to see something valuable in this site. Thanks God there are many sensible users who use this site in a very useful way.

Well, thehandsom, will you stop behaving like an adolescent and try to become a part of those sensible group?

This is pure demagogy...

May I ask you depict the culture and life in the region? I must have missed all the good points. Please explain the reasons of inequality between the two sexes; the reason behind multiple marriages, and why women have to marry the brother of his deceased husband. Please justfy feuds, inequal distribution of inheritance between brothers and sisters. There are many more but these would serve a good starter.

Sorry to disappoint you, but except one related to the marriage, none of the above practices are peculiar to the region in question, but they are true with the whole country. Maybe you could make a good starting by explaining to us why they do reflect the whole country, rather than the region?

 Dear vineyard, you have written something against thehandsom´s view, but the answer has come from gezegen? As an old user here, maybe you can explain, what is the relation between these two users. Are they the members of an organized group in this site? Whenever somebody criticizes one of them, the other one interferes into the  discussion and always supports him. Have you ever seen them as defending a different view on a peculiar subject?

Sorryi I wasn´t raised in a flower pot.

I am glad all of our country enjoys the same cultural assets. There is simply no difference.

It is therefore pointless to be in any form of conflict. With East not lagging behind West, the current problems might have been imported from outer space.

Are you joking?

Interesting....the type of marriage you mention is called Levirate Marriage... and is practiced in many parts of the world.  It is strictly forbitten in Islam.

I don´t know. Maybe the site owner can explain this.

I have never changed my nick or pretended to be someone else. Maybe some of us feel the need to do so.

I don´t believe that he´s a Türk. Why would a Türk constantly feed anti-Turkish content here? He´s here on a mission (read his posts/columns and one will get the idea of what that mission is). He constantly talks about evil Turks doing bad things to (angel) Kurds. I haven´t heard anything bad about Kurds in his posts. Does he really think Kurds are angels or something?

He talks about the 1915 events but he is always pro-Armenian as you can expect. He talks as if Turks were the only ones to be blamed and Armenians were angels. There must some faults of Armenians right? But he never talks about them. I wonder why? Why to always blame Turks?

I deny that anything I post here anti Turkish.. You can not prove that at all..

But I can clearly say that "they are anti-racist" 

In fact, I believe, you are quite anti Turkish according to my view. I mean with all these ignorance about these subjects/ acting guilty as if you are trying to cover up something. I am feeling  embarrassed most of the time to be honest to argue with you guys because you are suddenly posting something to give the impression that ´all Turks are like you; all Turks are agitated easily; all Turks are trying to hide something because of the way they are objecting´. 

I really believe that you are portraying a Turkish image here as ´argumentative; racist like nationalists; fear to talk about its history etc´..

That is quite wrong!!

You are simply wrong.. I am not gezegen or he is not me..

You are day dreaming about the ´secret organization´..

I think it is hallucination!!

You always talks what Turks did to Armenians but you never talked what Armenians did to muslims (they were mostly Kurdish by the way. the area where those conflicts happened is populated by Kurds now and then). The Armenians must have done some wrong things, right? I never saw you talk about it. You only talk what Turks did wrong to Armenians.

One time you wanted to respresent Murat Bardakçı´s mentioning 900000 people relocated in 1915 as number of people killed and you were very excited about that number. Why would a Türk do something like that? You were sounded as if you would be the more happy with the more number of killed people.

I was just going to say if you understand really what I am writing but I remembered you said you never read my posts fully. Well, you should!!

Look at your post..

First you are saying ´yes -SOMETHING- happened to Armenians but it was not us. It was Kurds´ (years ago, the argument was ´it never happened´, now, ´yes something happened but they did too, or they deserved´

The second thing is you are putting everything into wrong date orders.. (that is the reason why I am trying to be quite careful with the dates here). Most of the incident/massacres Armenians committed can NOT be the reason for 1915 events because the main Armenian massacres  were just after 1915.

I would not open Murat Bardakci incident if I was you..

Before him, you were presenting the documents from Turkish Army to show that all Armenians subjected to Techir was around 400.000.. All your thesis was based on that value..

He suddenly came up and said that ´the army was not revealing all the numbers´. So the number was around 1.000.000.. I dont think it would make any difference to me if it was 1.000.000 or 400.000..I already knew that 400.000 was NOT true..

I was not the person who believed it was true..

It was you..was it not?  

Did you feel betrayed by the army? I mean come one..You must have felt that.. It is like you defend something like ´they are all lies..how it is possible 600.000 deaths where the total number is 400.000´ and suddenly you are learning that ´you WERE WRONG´ 

I don´t want to get into number of deaths again with you. You may not believe 400000 but why did you sound so excited as if 900000 were the number of killed people? Why does it make you happy?

Here´s what Bardakçı says:

The collapse of the Ottoman Empire was bloody, the Turkish argument goes, and those who died were victims of that chaos.

Bardakci subscribes to that view. The figures, he said, do not indicate the number of dead, only the result of the decline in the Armenian population after deportation. He strongly disagrees that the massacres amounted to a genocide, and says that Turkey was obliged to take action against Armenians because they were openly supporting Russia in its war against the Ottoman Empire.

Quoted from: here

 No, he is not Türk but pretend to be. This is his tactic for fooling people. I think every time he says he is Turk he feels dirty and takes a shower to comfort himself.  Don´t waste too much water, handsome, be open and honest to us.  Come on, boyo, you can do this...we are not monsters to eat you.

What a charming post from a ´wanna be a racist´ person.
Not that easy!! You have to earn that label ..
And you need to lower yourself more by avoiding posting about the topic and tell us more about why a person should be a non Turk if he/she likes digging into subjects and not a fraid to be critical. And apart from praying everyday for Kenan Evren, who  created you lot as a monotype, well behaved, non critical, sheep like  generation of Turkey, you have to work harder like the others: Say something like I must be a Kurd or an Armenian..

Come on..you can do better..I am sure your potential is dying to come out!! Show us more what you are made of..

He´s annoying us all here repeating the same things all the time. He´s obsessed with the same things all the time. It´s just boring.

Just to make you happy,yes, you must be Armenian...If I were Armenian, I would be proud of my origin, but you are simply not...By the way, what makes you think that you are the only digger here?.. You are funny,boy..I guess your history knowledge is too short, but yet you pretend to be an historian. As for Kenan Evren, he is the clumsiest painter I have ever come across.  

, He is probably one of those parrot like people who speak what they hear.

Oh boy. I know you are tempted to make him happy by saying it, but let´s just be more politically correct. Everybody should have known by now what he is or is not. Leave it to their imagination.

You should really LOOK at yourself..

You keep ignoring the main subject and trying to get personal..

Stop this yani..Please..

We have repeated this here countless times.. In almost cases, you embarrassed yourselves and you embarrassed your country.

What makes you think suddenly, it will be different this time?

So stop it..

First of all, it is you who brings it to a personal level where and when your knowledge ends. Please be humble enough and honest enough to know where your knowledge ends. (probably it´s the same point where my knowledge starts   And, please, stop hating and insulting people who don´t agree with you. Do we all have to agree with everything you say? You terrorize the people here! You want us all to share your historical view. When someone disagree with you, it automatically means they are "ignorant, racist, sheep like" guys...if you will be a good boy, we can go back to the main topic...if not...ermm...we will pull your ear and show the right way.

Ha ha

Fantastic!!!

I dont terrorize people at all ...But boy, I am not the one trying to get personal here.. Look at yourself..

Check who started going personal in this thread for example? 

This is a post for the ones who seek the truth. Handsome guy, u shall stop to read that

Armenians were called as “loyal nation” by Ottoman Empire until the end of 1800s. They were appointed to most important duties. Gabriel Noradugyan was the Foreign Affairs Minister and Sakız Ohannes Paşa was the Treasure Minister of Ottoman Empire in the beginning of 1900s. These are not unique samples, I wrote these down just because they are notable. Rather than these two, there have been Armenian grand viziers, other ministers, highest officers, lecturers, artists, architects etc. http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/relations/ottoman.html  I mean, Armenians were taking place in all levels of Ottoman Empire’s social life without any discrimination. They were Ottomans as much as a Turks.

So what happened and this 600 years “loyal nation” have been relocated?

At the end of 1800s nationalist trends have been arisen amongst Armenians by the effect of Russian provokes. Armenian gangs and factious organizations were established in this era. Turkish and Kurdish villages were indefensible in this era because Ottoman Army was trying to defend their lands and almost every men who can keep a gun were joined the army. Armenian gangs who do not take place in Ottoman Army begin to attack these indefensible villages especially in the eastern Anatolia. They have been murdered ten thousands of civilians in Erzurum, Muş, Van, Zeytun etc.

During and after the first decade of 1900s Armenian massacres and rebellions wounded whole eastern Anatolia and also some other Anatolian cities. While Ottoman nation was getting prepared for exist or dissolve struggle, Armenians were cooperating with the enemies and shut Ottoman from inside. The” loyal nation” turned to be betrayal nation. So the Armenians subjected to relocation. When we consider the zeitgeist, that application can be described as over peaceful.

Turkish people are smooth ones. One do not be punished by Turkish community if he does not touch Turks sore spot.

In that era, Arabs were betrayed to Ottoman Empire too. They cooperated with the UK and attacked Ottoman Army. They owe their miserable conditions to that betray. Their sources are exploited and they have never lived in peace after that betray. Today, the biggest hope of them for peace is Turkey’s support. Turkey will give that support. Turkish society is not rancorous, forgives easily especially the ones with ties of affection.

What I wonder is, when will the northern Iraqi Kurds who are in cooperation with Israel and USA, will call Turks to be saved! Just like they run away to Turkey when Saddam bombed them.

What I also wonder is the PKK’s miserable end after the USA’s job ends with them. Just like USA did to Taliban.

No one who betrayed Turks became happy. Probably they miss Turks justice and the comfort of that era.

The world’s power balance is changing. Turkey is changing. Turks sickness of last two centuries which is the reason of underdevelopment,- western admiration- is coming to an end.Turkey begin to make its own policies again. So, who knows what happens...

Damn. It is typical of me to be a fantastic boy 

Tamam, I admit, there is at least one thing that you can do better than me: word salad 

Ohh

This is nice..

All people who wanted to leave Ottomans are ingratitude bastards .

Anyway, the danger in your writing is that ´you dont think what we did the Armenians was a wrong thing´ you think they DESERVED it..

As if all those suffering which was caused, can be somehow DESERVED. 

It is not what is done important but the important thing is "they deserved it"..

It means ´yes. we did it..we are proud of it and we can do it again to others such as Kurds´ 

I told you not to read it dude. Your brain is not working like a normal human...

Come on.. Stop getting personal..

So, do you want to compare Samsun and Diyarbakir this time to show that how terrorist Kurds are? eh?

Come on ..tell us once more:

´yes. we did it..we are proud of it and we can do it again to others such as Kurds´

Say it louder this time..

"When we consider the zeitgeist, that application can be described as over peaceful."

Crystal clear explaination of that phrase for the nerd

What is a country? Basically a country is a place where all citizens live safe. If some citizens of the country organisationally and chronically threatens others life safety, if some citizens try to split the country in cooperation with enemies, the mission of the government would be to stop that. Relocation of these gangs is one of the most peaceful executions for a government who is in existing or disappear war.

I am proud of my nation, in order they did not choose to kill these organized betrayers, I am proud of my nation in order they never choosed savagery even in war conditions. After I see some nations genocided the others just because they hate them or they want their sources, I get proud of my nation twice.

Coming to the Kurdish people. Whatever terrorists do, they won’t able to damage our brotherhood. If I were an Anatolian Kurdish I would be proud of my nation too.

Just a few paragraphs from my last column for the people who think this ´was a normal thing to do´ :

As I meantioned before, In anatolia there was no tradition of moving a people, a millet/nation who was not very friendly with you because of the war. 

Turks or Ottomans did not even consider to deport the Bulgarians when they were fighting between them and the Russians and they well knew they would lose the war but the idea of deporting Bulgarians was never thought of. 

Ataturk never ever considered moving part of population because of rebellions during the independence war.... 

And there is still no logical explanation why you would move the women and childeren and the sick if your aim is really to protect them or your army..why not the men only? And what were the armenians in Istanbul got to do with the incidents in the east?

Shameful act at any level!!!

So in your idea, Ottoman was powerful enough to change every minorities places in the war time ha?

Bulgarians to here, Armenians there, Arabs here hooop everything is ok!

Do you live in an imaginary world? How can you realize these policies in coordination. I knew that you ask questions to provake people but i did not know you ask these without thinking on them!

About women and kids! Do you really ask this? If my nation splited the families and remain women, elderly and children defensless, they would be barbarian.

I think you dont know what happened during that time..

You are just saying the words because you memorized them like "I am proud of my nation... I get proud of my nation twice" etc. And you think that you are doing something good..

Well continue!!

What a pity! You really think so? Ohh handsome dont do that you will make me cry

You know what, if you ment anything to me, i could invite you to my own flat to show you some interesting documents. But a person whose only misson is swearing at "his own nation" is nothing to me!

Why don´t anyone know what you believe in rather than you hate Turks?

Becouse you are provaker!

It really is pity!!

Again, you are leaving early. No time for watermelon?

Well if you mix up ´your nation´ with ´bunch of criminals´ who committed those crimes, I recommend you get used to being humiliated..

Because they are murderers. 

Do not index your pride with some bunch of criminals..

They are not your nation!!

Poor guy...

I think I will post this too (from my column again)

A translation from Nazim Hikmet

...

Bakkal Karabet’in isiklari yanmis.

Affetmedi bu Ermeni vatandas

Kürt daglarinda babasinin kesilmesini.

Fakat seviyor seni,çünkü sen de affetmedin

bu karayi sürenleri Türk halkinin alnina

.....

The lights in the Shop of Karabet are on..

That Armanian citizen never forgave

His father´s slaughter in Kurdish mountains

But he loves you

Because neither you did  forgive those people, 

Who blackened the foreheads of Turkish people

......

WHOA !!!  Hold on there, boyo !!! what are you trying to say? you really need to see a psychiatrist ASAP. I wonder if admin will let this post remain as it is or...we will see. 

It was not me saying it really..

Tell them the people who think ´They deserved it´!!

I wonder who they are? 

So you are not one of them? You dont think they deserved it?

It was your post:

you will never really stop cheap tactics.

you´re pretending to make it look like someone else told that which is not true.

why not you try to be direct with your words?

stop pretending to be smart..you are not.

...

btw im still waitin´ 4 the admin 2delete ur post! 

Well ´you smart boy´ 

Are you saying that ´something happened´ in 1915? If you check, Oeince thinks "nothing happened" during this relocation.. And it was one of the most ´beautiful -in humane act´ according to him..

I think it is what you think as well...

Since it was an innocent act and nothing happened why are you crying as if ´if I said something horrible´? eh?  

You have two choices:

- Either you are accepting what did happen was a horrible thing. (which means I am not the one you have to be against, it was oeince..I am trying to say that it was a horrible thing to do!!)

- You do agree with oeince and there is no problem mentioning it since you think that nothing was wrong with it..

ps..This is what happens when arguing.. you suddenly ´tell´ what you have been avoiding to tell without realizing it  

Thanks for that ..

Anyway, your ´smartness´ has started to bore me... 

I think you should agree between each other and then come back as a single voice..

Look what this handsome kido says...

I do not come across with a boy nowadays as miserable as you.

Oeince, post something, an article, a historical document that you claim you possess rather than getting this personal. I am keen to learn from your knowledge if you share.

 I had already sent some articles and reports about Armenian Issue and PKK Terrorism written by famous historians and researchers to my column in TLC, but moderators deleted all of them. They said that they deleted all the writings due to they have been written by some one else.

Well, I just wonder what is the important point here: Is it to give the true and objective informations about such sensitive issues or to follow the "forum rules"? If the later is important for the moderators, then why do they allow thehandsom to continue his provocation in the TLC? Because insulting a community is also restricted here. He almost occupied all the forums -special columns, many posts in different forums etc..- with his full of insulting writings -Insulting our past generations and present people- on specific topics as Armenian Issues and "Kurdish Question".

But if you still want to read some serious studies on the the related subjects as Armenian and pkk Terrorism or "Kurdish Question", you can click on the following links: