Quoting nautilis:

Quote:

It does make me curious now about other school/sporting activies. For example swimming? Is this allowed? And...presumably if the child has to cover her head, she also cannot wear shorts or proper sports clothes? It is a real burden to a child/teenager surely?

I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems to me that the title of this thread would more apply to those who are forced to wear a headscarf while doing such things and made to feel different

Quoting joooe86:

im a footballer too.i think the referee was right. football has rules.

Quoting gavi:

sorry aenigma x you miss the point of the article

Quoting aenigma x:

May I also ask why you have chosen to post this in the Turkish News and Announcements Forum? This is clearly a Canadian muslim issue and should be posted in the off-topic.

Quoting gavi:

Quote:

I did not miss the point of the article at all. As far as I understand it, the wearing of the hijab or headscarf is to hide all "ornaments" that may be attractive to men. I will not debate the sensibilty or sexism involved in this culture in this thread. However, I was merely asking the question of other sports (which you have chosen not to answer). Swimming for example?
Lets start with this one first swimming is not requied in schools as a part of our physical education program so would be purely on a personal and family level whether a child would swim or not. Also if you wish to wear this in a public swimming pool it is of no concern to others. If you can swim you can swim. I have seen people swim with clothing on before.

Your point of "going to a school yard and watching children play" is a valid one. They are running free and unconcerned about their appearance or having the need to shamefully hide their hair or body or with the hinderance of wearing a hijab.
not quite the point. I was talking of the aspect of prejudice based on the color of your skin/religion or the clothing you wear. This had nothing to do with once again your adult view of children thinking they have shame of hiding hair........really think about it what about children who wear cruxifices attached to chains or little girls with holes in their ears and little crosses dangleing this was not the issue here again another forum differnt topic and of course in the right forum

Anyway back to topic....soccer IS a contact sport and it could be extremely dangerous to wear such things while playing. This is my opinion.
when did soccer become a extremely dangerous sport for children if that were the case maybe we should ban it altogether

Presumably you posted this to initiate comment, but only if the comment supports YOUR theory!
not quite right dear.... you ideas were not related to the article in question that was of course posted in the wrong forum if you agree with the way this was handled by all means that is you opinion and allowed like anyone else's I was only making reference to how off topic this has become I will not repost on your view on this article anyfurther as it is now becoming silly

Quoting Trudy:

Gavi, if it's about non-contact sports I agree with you that freedom of choice should be there - I love to see Navratilova and tennis bobo's like her that way. But can you explain why you think a headscarf should be possible with contact sports or - like Aenigma said - swimming or some type of athletics (rings etc)? I can imagine that pulling at clothes can make a dangerous situation, or drowning at waterpolo / swimming, hang yourself with gymnastics etc. I really like to hear your arguements.

Quoting gavi:

Lets start with this one first swimming is not requied in schools as a part of our physical education program so would be purely on a personal and family level whether a child would swim or not. Also if you wish to wear this in a public swimming pool it is of no concern to others. If you can swim you can swim. I have seen people swim with clothing on before.

Quoting gavi:

not quite the point. I was talking of the aspect of prejudice based on the color of your skin/religion or the clothing you wear. This had nothing to do with once again your adult view of children thinking they have shame of hiding hair........really think about it what about children who wear cruxifices attached to chains or little girls with holes in their ears and little crosses dangleing this was not the issue here again another forum differnt topic and of course in the right forum ]

Quoting gavi:

when did soccer become a extremely dangerous sport for children if that were the case maybe we should ban it altogether .

Quoting gavi:

not quite right dear.... you ideas were not related to the article in question that was of course posted in the wrong forum if you agree with the way this was handled by all means that is you opinion and allowed like anyone else's I was only making reference to how off topic this has become I will not repost on your view on this article any further as it is now becoming silly

Quoting gavi:

Lets start with this one first swimming is not requied in schools as a part of our physical education program so would be purely on a personal and family level whether a child would swim or not. Also if you wish to wear this in a public swimming pool it is of no concern to others. If you can swim you can swim. I have seen people swim with clothing on before.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting gavi:

Muslim parents are allowed to send their children to public swimming lessons if they are under the age of puberty after having taken reasonable safeguards, such as sending them with proper attire for swimming and making sure there is no chance for girls and boys to be isolated.
Also here they may do other credits to give them the necessary marks needed in school. Would be the same as a child having no arms or legs. There is a reason they can not participate.

Quoting gavi:

Muslim parents are allowed to send their children to public swimming lessons if they are under the age of puberty after having taken reasonable safeguards, such as sending them with proper attire for swimming and making sure there is no chance for girls and boys to be isolated.
Also here they may do other credits to give them the necessary marks needed in school. Would be the same as a child having no arms or legs. There is a reason they can not participate.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting gavi:

Ohhhhhhhh I give up it .........

Quoting gavi:

sorry I did not mention this is a all girl league they do not play with boys at all.

Quoting aenigma x:

Quoting gavi:

Quoting aenigma x: Quoting gavi: Ohhhhhhhh I give up it ......... Why? Have your principles changed? Have you realised your mistake?

Quoting libralady:

I think another point that ought to be considered here, is why do people not respect the rules of that country? Regardless of religion. We are bending over backwards all of the time, especially in England to accomodate all religions, to the extreme of actually discriminating against Christians.

I don't go a lot on any religion as I feel that is causes far too many problems, but I do think that if a rule is applied and other children abide by it then NO the headscarf should not be worn whilst playing football. The first thing I would have considered is the health and safety side of it. No jewellery is taken taken for granted so why not no headscarf. I cant think how ridiculous that must look. Have you ever seen anyone play football in a Turban?

Perhaps a compromise could be reached and she wear a scull cap similar to the patka that Monty Panesar wears (a Sikh Cricketer in the UK).

Why can't everyone apply a modicum of common sense these days! Why cannot people try and integrate into the society they have chosen to live in, but instead of that try and get the rules changed for them.

Quoting Capoeira:

Sticky question to debate!!!! I mean UK and USA have to work double to include all these cultural/social practices and make thigs equatable. Other countries don't have this problem because they don't have the enormous immigration issues that we have.

Quoting aenigma x:

Quoting gavi:

Soccer's ruling body has backed Quebec officials who banned a Muslim girl from playing in a tournament near Montreal because she wore a head scarf.


CTV.ca News Staff

Asmahan Mansour, 11, was ejected from the game for not removing her hijab on the field.
The International Football Association Board -- FIFA -- held its annual meeting Saturday in Manchester, England.

The board was asked to make a ruling on the plight of Asmahan Mansour, the 11-year-old who was told last weekend that she couldn't play in the under-12 tournament in Laval unless she removed her religious head-covering known as a hijab.

Brian Barwick, who spoke on behalf of the board, said it is important to be respectful to "people's thoughts and philosophies,'' but added that the rules of the game must be followed.

"We believe our football to be inclusive. It's part of what we believe our football to be," Barwick said during a news conference.

"But of course if you play football there are basic laws. And law four outlines what the basic laws are concerning gear. I think it's absolutely right to be sensitive to people's thoughts and philosophies but equally football has a set of rules it has to adhere to."

Law four lists the items a player is entitled to wear and head scarves are not mentioned.

Goalkeepers are allowed to wear caps and protective headgear.

The Quebec Soccer Association said the headscarf violated a no-headgear rule set down by FIFA for safety reasons.

The soccer referee who ordered Mansour to remove her headscarf was also a Muslim.

When she was ejected from the game for refusing to remove the covering, Mansour's coach withdrew the team from the tournament in protest.

Quoting libralady:

As one of the prospective "morrons" are you saying here that you think she should wear her scarf or she should not? I can't be bothered to search through the rest of the posts to find out.

I will reiterate, so the rules say she should not wear a scarf, simple if you want to play football, you dont wear a scarf. Anyway, as a Muslim, now come she was being allowed to play football, I thought this was a no no for Muslim girls. Now that smacks double standards. Want to wear a scarf and play football, but dont want to play by the rules.

But I will also reiterate, when in Rome do as the Romans do!! In other words you respect the society you have decided to live and you abide by the rules and laws of that society.

We (UK), and many other European countries allow many imigrants into our Countries, some legally but some illegally, with Italy have a huge problems with illegal imigration from North Africa. And as you know, European countries are Christan countries. What is happening is a sort of reverse racisim. Our countries are trying to accomodate other religions, Islam, Hinud, Sikh etc etc some successfully and integration has worked relatively well. But when religious groups start to dictate to the host country that is when I have a problem.

So now please explain to us why we are morrons? Maybe I should shut my mouth now.

Quoting libralady:

So now please explain to us why we are morrons? Maybe I should shut my mouth now.

Quoting gavi:

Quoting aenigma x: Quoting gavi: Ohhhhhhhh I give up it ......... Why? Have your principles changed? Have you realised your mistake?

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting Capoeira: Quoting libralady: So now please explain to us why we are morrons? Maybe I should shut my mouth now. It's funny how people are quick to use negative adjectives or dehumanizing nouns to define others based on the fact that one does not follow, agree with, or become persuaded by their opinions! I find that to be more revealing of that person's intellect than their crafty arguments. While I have often disagreed with you,Libralady, in no way, shape or form do I find you be lacking in intelligence as the word 'morron' dictates. Surely the previous post contained a typo!

Quoting aenigma x:

If I go and live in an Islamic state i am refused the right to even testify in court against a muslim! One example of thousands of rules I must adhere to.

Quoting qdemir:

Iran is NOT an Islamic country, and a model to be emulated or refered to ,even though it defines or calls itself in that way.

Just ask What Islam says about the issue instead of refering to Iran.

Quoting qdemir:

Iran is NOT an Islamic country, and a model to be emulated or refered to ,even though it defines or calls itself in that way.

Just ask What Islam says about the issue instead of refering to Iran.

Quoting susie k:

WOW! I imagine that this is strictly practised only in Iran, because I have Muslims under me at work.... Also I was not aware that this was in the Qur'an. Does anyone have any further information or examples on this comment?

Quoting qdemir:

Some certain people on here are posing as if they have snow-white posts records, when some other people have used similar words. May be, they just deem themselves entitled to use such words.

Quoting aenigma x:

I have nothing else to say on this as I it is such a sensitive subject which makes rational discussion impossible.

Quoting aenigma x:

By "Islamic state" I mean a country that is governed by religious leaders. As a non-Muslim living in an "Islamic state" (Iran for example) I would be discriminated against - this is my point.

As a non muslim I would be referred to as a 'Zimmis'. Zimmis cannot testify against Muslims. They can only testify against other Zimmis or Musta'min. Their oaths are not considered valid in an Islamic court. A Zimmi, regarded as an infidel, cannot testify against any Muslim regardless of his moral credibility. One serious implication of this is that if one Muslim has committed a serious offense against another, witnessed by Zimmis only, the court will have difficulty deciding the case since the testimonies of Zimmis are not acceptable.

Yet, this same Zimmi whose integrity is blemished, if he converts to Islam, will have his testimony accepted against the Zimmis and Muslims alike, because according to the Shari`a, "By embracing Islam he has gained a new credibility which would enable him to witness..." All he has to do is to utter the Islamic confession of faith before witnesses, and that will elevate him from being an outcast to being a respected Muslim enjoying all the privileges of a devout Muslim.

I would also be subjected to the following rules:-
(1) Zimmis are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues.
2) Zimmis are not allowed to pray or read their sacred books out loud at home or in churches, lest Muslims hear their prayers.
3) Zimmis are not allowed to print their religious books or sell them in public places and markets. They are allowed to publish and sell them among their own people, in their churches and temples.
4) Zimmis are not allowed to install the cross on their houses or churches since it is a symbol of infidelity.
5) Zimmis are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and magazines.
6) Zimmis are not allowed to congregate in the streets during their religious festivals; rather, each must quietly make his way to his church or temple.
7) Zimmis are not allowed to join the army unless there is indispensable need for them in which case they are not allowed to assume leadership positions but are considered mercenaries.
(8) I could not achieve any position of authority in my job because the command of non-Muslims over Muslims in not admissible, because God Almighty said: 'Allah will not give access to the infidels (i.e. Christians) to have authority over believers (Muslims) {Qur'an 4:141}.

In the scheme of things, I think that not allowing a headscarf to be worn whilst playing football is rather a minor detail!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoting aenigma x:

Clearly I have touched upon a "raw nerve" here. I am merely saying that those muslims living in USA and UK and who complain that they are being discriminated against, should remember that we are discriminated against too!

I have nothing else to say on this as I it is such a sensitive subject which makes rational discussion impossible.

Quoting gavi:

Quoting nautilis:

about zımmis: islam should be accepted with only freewill, no one can ban any believer to practice their religion, even our prophet let jews or christians or other believers to live in their way, the others r just politicians, first of all, we r just tellers, we have no power to force anybody to change their life

Quoting nautilis:

about zımmis: islam should be accepted with only freewill, no one can ban any believer to practice their religion, even our prophet let jews or christians or other believers to live in their way, the others r just politicians, first of all, we r just tellers, we have no power to force anybody to change their life

Quoting aenigma x:

Quoting robyn :

Quoting gavi:

Quoting gavi:

you miss the point big time ........ sad sad sad

Quoting aenigma x:

Right so, in that case, we need to establish the EXACT background of the girl who was banned from wearing her headscarf!

If she was from a muslim country where they are not considered to be muslims (i.e. Iran!!!!) then we will feel no pity for her.

If she is from a "nice" muslim country then we will throw our arms up in horror and cry at the injustice of such a thing.

Hahahahahaha! Thank you for the lesson in Islam!

Quoting KeithL:

Why have I never heard of people complain about nuns who wear traditional headress or jews that wear their varieties of head apparel or amish and menonites. I understand the headscarf issue in Turkey because of its fundamental need to be secular. But in Europe and N. America, it is harrassment and double standard.

Quoting KeithL:

This is a bigger issue than football.

Quoting qdemir:

aenigma, you already know very well that that eleven-year-old girl isnt on the bull's eye for you and some other people.

Quoting KeithL:

Why have I never heard of people complain about nuns who wear traditional headress or jews that wear their varieties of head apparel or amish and menonites. I understand the headscarf issue in Turkey because of its fundamental need to be secular. But in Europe and N. America, it is harrassment and double standard.

Quoting KeithL:

Are you implying her headscarf is endangering the other players?

Quoting qdemir:

Quoting KeithL:

I was only referencing your last post aenigma.

And Cap, a saftey pin in her hair is more dangerous than the spikes they wear on their feet????

The issue is ridiculous, especially at age 11.

The headscarf issue in the western world is totally hypocritical and harassment.

Quoting mheart72:

the rules of the FIFA doesnt exactly prohibits the wearing of hijab. What they prohibit is wearing ornaments/clothes that may pose a danger to the player itself and other players.
The girl came from Ontario and her wearing a hijab while playing is allowed. The Ontario soccer association(or whatever they call it) doesnt think it poses a danger. But then their team went to Quebec to compete in a tournament. As their is no specific rules as to the prohibition of wearing hijab it was the referee who decided and believed that its dangerous. But the coach was complaining because the team already played like 3 games on that specific tournament before the referre decided its dangerous.

Quoting robyn :

as far as i know fifa banned metal spikes, it is now plastic stubs only..

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting aenigma x:

Quoting KeithL:

I was only referencing your last post aenigma.

And Cap, a saftey pin in her hair is more dangerous than the spikes they wear on their feet????

The issue is ridiculous, especially at age 11.

The headscarf issue in the western world is totally hypocritical and harassment.

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting mheart72:

other teams pull out of the competition too after that.

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting gavi:

I think George Orwell referred to this when he said, "Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting."

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting gavi:

Quoting gavi:

Quoting gavi: Quoting Capoeira: Quoting gavi: I think George Orwell referred to this when he said, "Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting." Ok Gavi, first the 'morron' comment and now the George Orwell quote.... did you want to change this to last post on this forum wins..............hahaha you miss the point this was a girl a young girl at an impressionable age ready to be the next leading generation of society.........

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting libralady:

Uhmmm still going? Not been locked yet! Well I am suprised.............. This could not have ended a more mud slinging religious debate if anyone had tried.

Quoting nautilis:

it is sad that we can be either intolerant, we wish peace, but we cant help peace...

Quoting nautilis:

it is sad that we can be either intolerant, we wish peace, but we cant help peace...

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting nautilis:

Quoting gavi:

[modified by admin]

Quoting gavi: