Armegon, I'm sorry about the confusion. The story I posted is a real story the author has seen and I used it as an example of what the cult of virginity leads to in real life, in extreme conditions. I am not talking or implying anything about Hirsi Ali's ideas about Islam! I did not try to say that this kind of behavior is normal for all Muslims either, that is definitely not true.

I would like to just add a little bit of background information on Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for those who are interested. The past few years she has been in the news many times, in both positive and negative ways.

Ayaan Hirsi Magan was born in Somalie, but didnt spend much of her life there. Her family moved to Saoudi-Arabia, Ethiopia and Kenia.

At the age of 23, in 1992(and if İ am not mistaken whilst living in Kenia), there was a crisis in her homeland Somalia, different groups attacked each other in a civil war, half a million people died from hunger and 2 million people stayed as refugees in the surrounding countries. At that time, Holland opened its doors and nearly took all the refugees that came from this war. Ayaan Hirsi Magan used this opportunity and came to Holland. (there is some confusion around here as she was heading to Canada as well and stayed in Germany to handle some paperwork).

In any way, upon arrival in the Netherlands, she decided she wanted to stay there. When interrogated by the İmmigration and Naturalisation Organisation, she said to have fled from the immediate-crisis area. She avoided to say she had spend 12 years in Kenia and several days in Germany. She would have been sent back to Germany, because that is a safe country too. Kenia too, was considered to be a safe country in those days. To stop them from sending her back, she gave a wrong year of birth (2 years earlier) to sabotize the investigations. Also, she changed her name from Ayaan Hirsi Magan to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She would be known under this name till 2006. Her request for political asylum was accepted within a few weeks, with an A-status: a permanent permission of residence for persons who are not safe in their homeland.
She studied politics at university and then became a politician with strong anti-islamic ideas, first for PvdA and then VVD (a strange change of party, but according to her there was no space for her thoughts on the negative results of migration in the former party).

5 years after arrival she was 'naturalised' (I dont know the english word, but you get citizenship and nationality of the new country) as a person from the Netherlands. However, in 2006, a tv programme, her 'Netherland-ship' was questioned, since she lied about her identity when applying for it, nor could she remain a politician.

İt is heard that these things were known among many politicians who chose to keep their mouth shut. Also, all the things came in the news, supposedly after she had applied for the job in the United States.

Everything around her life as a refugee and a politician these days is rather controversial and she has confused a
many.
Her thoughts on the İslam and the holy prophet Muhammed, have provoced many İslamic citizens of Holland.
She was threatened by muslims several times and lived at secret and secured addresses for a while.


People abroad may have heard from her when Theo van Gogh was murdered brutally. Van Gogh was a Dutch film director with 'straight through sea' and rather rude ideas about the İslam, or actually muslims in general. Together with Ayaan Hirsi Ali he produced the film 'Submission', which showed the oppressed Muslim women. This film raised a lot of anger among muslims who said it was all too wrong and too extreme.

Van Gogh was murdered by a young man, who goes by the name of Mohammed Bouyeri, who said to have handled in the name of Allah, he saw himself as an instrument of Allah. Van Gogh was shot several times, his throat slit and the knife stabbed deeply inside the body. With a smaller knife, the murdered had pinned a letter upon his body, addressed to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, threatening her.

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Ohh well, this has nothing to do with the article itself, thought Id just explain the 'lies' that have been mentioned before and why she has become like that in the eyes of many dutch people.

Thank you DK. Your post made me wonder on another subject. I don't speak for myself, but have to admit there is a degree of anti-muslim feeling in the UK which has been fuelled by the frequent reports of terrorist acts and murders here being carried out "in the name of Allah".

In my limited understanding of Islam, I believe it to be very anti-violence. I am curious as to how other muslims feel when they read reports of these acts being carried out in Allah's name?

I know what it is to have to watch violent acts I disagree with being carried out in the name of "England" in Iraq and other places, so my question is not intended to fuel an argument about whose culture is worse than whose!

With news that author Salman Rushdie is again back on top of a murder hit-list,I am just curious about your feelings about this. Do you, in principal, accept that someone who criticises Islam should be punished?

(I appreciate I am possibly breaking forum rules, but sometimes feel such subjects, when discussed, bring about better understanding than silence)

Dear Aenigma x

Yes you are right, Islam does not support violence but some extremist groups deceive illiterate people to take advantage of them using religion, to brainwash them mostly political reasons or any goal to reach for them.

For example Muhammed B. who killed Theo van Gogh was a very frusturated young man searching for identity then he found himself in some extremist group, group brainwashed him as Theo van Gogh attacked Morrocans in Holland and kept offending them. Then he fooled himself by believeing he did it in the name of Allah. When one study him, it can be seen that he was seeking for an identitty. In Islam killing is strictly forbidden till believers are killed thus it is self self-defence. You cannot find any verses in Kuran that says kill or fight anyone who did nothing to you.

Thank you so much for clarifying that Armegon

Your answer is the one I give to people when this subject comes up in conversation, but I have never actually asked the question of muslims before. It frustrates me that people are so narrow-minded and fearful of any culture that is not their own and so quick to judge the many by the few.

Yes. Later Muhammed translated a sentence in which he showed that killing was allowed by his god:
"Mandatory to kill the one who has insulted the prophet [...]". HOWEVER this is not a sentence from the Quran and therefore shows what is said before, that the İslam is explained in very different ways, and an extreme one like this can lead to those like Muhammed who go astray.

The sentence comes from the book "As Sarim alMasloel 3la Satmie Arrasoel", written by Ahmad ibn Tajmijja (1263-1328).

Just note the dates that this man has lived..


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I havent finished the Quran myself, so I cant respond from that point of view, but it has become clear more than once that there are different intrepretations of the İslam, and that there are many powerful people who use this for the wrong purposes. Another muslim said during the trial that Muhammad Bouyeri probably visited the İmam Jneid Fawaz, who several weeks before the murder prayed for Allah to send Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Theo van Gogh horrible illnesses.

Dear Deli_Kizin

I agree most of your post. The quote you made is just seen as the words of Allah which lead extermists to this crooked system. It is nothing but lie about Allah, some so-called religious leaders always giving fatwa as they know better than Allah. People try to interpret Kuran through false beliefs/hadiths which totally contradicts with Kuran so it is seen there are many interpretations of Islam. It is not the fault of Islam but the fault of seyhs, cult/religious leaders. I think this is the biggest problem of today Islamic world, people who do not use their brain-intellect, hire their minds to their religious leaders and worship their leaders or prophet instead of God. Let me tell you an ironic reality of Salman Rushdie, you know there is also a fatwa given against Salman Rushdie, but the book he published “satanic verses” is not originated by Salman Rushdie(I think he named his book falsely, maybe satanic hadiths more suitable), it was taken from the stories of Tabari(923) and Ibn Sa’d(845) which seen big scholars in Islamic world(ironic huh?), it is also a tradition among christian missionaries and conservative christians to vilify the Islam through centuries and the phrase “satanic verses” firstly used by English missionary belligerent Sir William Muir(surprisingly he was also a sir ). So Salman Rushdie is maybe the last person to be blamed , muslims(especially extremists) should look at themselves firstly, how did they create this crooked system?.