[post deleted by user]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/7011120.stm

Everybody is suing everybody for anything they can get - she has no right to sue the hairdresser. Would you visit a dentist who had bad teeth, would you buy a product you were not able to see, would you buy a tattoo from an artist who refused to show you his/her own tattoos or work - I think the answer is no.

This is another time-waster of the courts and tax-payers money.

This is a very convincing
Isn't it remarkable how headscarves always bring all the anti-Muslims out in droves? Maybe they can explain:

1.) Why they think a person cannot have a personal attitude to modesty/behaviour and at the same time interact with those of a different view? For example, would they demand that teetotallers be banned from doing bar work?

2.) If they would refuse to hire bald/balding men as barbers/stylists?

3.) If they think women have less imagination than men, and thus cannot have their hair styled without an 'example' in front of them?

4.) If they believe women can only go to stylists who have exactly the same style that they want to have?

5.) If they think women are so dumb they do not realise that the stylist serving them did not actually style her own hair?

6.) If they would sack a woman stylist if she lost her
hair during cancer chemotherapy, on the grounds that she could no longer fulfil an 'absolutely basic' job requirement?

7.) If they would apply such standards to other professions, e.g. only employ women in the fashion industry who are physically 'perfect', i.e. ban the disabled. If you must see hair in order to have your own styled, by the same logic you must see people with two arms and two legs in order to imagine yourself in their clothes.

The one point that the owner of the hair salon did not clear up was if the person suing her had been given a chance to actually style some hair, to see if she was any good. Failing to do so was simply wrong.

does wearing headscarf make woman a slave or second class citizen? i disagree with you..most of them wear it because they think quran orders to wear it..not because of men.

but i would not wear headscarf if i were a woman because it differentiates you to other people..do men wear anything like that? no!!

I agree there are way too many law suits out there and were just making the lawyers richer everyday. I have a couple perspectives on this situation myself. You have all types of hairdressers with different appearances. My personal hairdresser has red and blue hair. At first I thought OMG what have I gotten myself into, because you do tend to go by appearance and perception. Only to my surprise, she is fantastic!

However, with many positions employers can dictate a dress code and this would not be considered discrimination even if it's part of her religion. Sometimes we need to be flexible with our appearance to obtain the job we are looking for. In the business world, most employers forbid visible body piercings, require a certain dress code policy.

If the position was that important to her, she may have been more flexible to the owners wishes and not wear it during business hours. The owner does have the right to enforce certain standards regarding dress code as long as they are consistent with their policies.

In my opinion, the salon owner has a perfect right to hire whomever he/she wants to. A salon is about IMAGE and the owner has a cerain image that he/she wants to portray to the puplic. I personally wouldn't let a woman who wears a headscarf to touch my hair. I selected my hairdresser because I like her style. The way she wears her hair and puts on her make up is exactly in tune with my taste and style.

Now, as far as modesty and headscarves.....you can still be modest and NOT wear one, THANK YOU!!!

I myself love to wear make up, dress well, and do my hair....but sometimes, I am not sure if I am doing it for myself or to make my husband take notice. In any case, I don't think it is right for people to assume that I am immodest or that I want sex because I enjoy these things. This is the same thinking that allows men to blame women for being raped or beaten! OH, she was looking sexy, so she deserved it, mentality. The headscarf, to a woman like me, is a symbol of denial...denial of a womans right to the power of beauty....that is what I hate.

Have you ladies ever speculated on the question "why, of the two sexes, only the females are endowed with quality of coyness?". Why did the nature think the menfolk can do with out it? Any divine purpose in that?


PS: Watch it! Do not reply this post, unless you are gracefully ready for another lesson by AlphaF

I am impatiently waiting for "another lesson from AlphaF" in his series entitled: "AlphaF: How I became so chauvinistic and ignorant"

Replies I have receivd to my question indicate that either you are all below the age of 18, or you are all adults who do not possess the philosophical depth to discuss such issues.

I shall keep quiet about nature's secrets, until a mature audience is available...

A man can't be a feminist, he can't argue with a feminist nor can he be in the same line of thinking with a feminist because feminism is a camp designed by and for women where they can fight for their own cause.

If a woman states that she is a feminist and that she protests legal/traditional sexual discrimination in society, I would consider her reaction as a sociological phenomenon and I would categorize it alongside the unfair treatment she is subjected to which is another sociological phenomenon. I would probably conclude that neither of those problem categories could be solved by punishing one of the sexes or applying restrictions on it.

We know that independence is won by fighting, peace is achieved by shedding blood and oppressive regimes are overthrown at the expense of countless innocent people. Once the objective is reached fighting subsides and life runs normally. As a matter of fact, some aspects of the feminist movement is reminiscient of all the aforementioned. Therefore it is more on the side of being an anomaly serving a purpose in a period of transition. Nevertheless, this transition is age long and it is still nowhere close to satisfying related needs in society.

By way of reasoning, feminist women and especially those who are male haters or those who are overly aggressive toward the other sex do not behave the way a benign individual would. Her anger causes her to develop a dysfunction that affects her relations with other individuals. Add to that the charecteristic obsessive attitude of feminists and their selective interests in certain matters and you will end up with a problematic personality who is impossible to get along with.

Being a feminist is not about being a man-hater. You assume that feminism is all I can think about?! The fact is that this site is one of the main places where I see mysogynism, so I have to comment! If I saw racism I would comment too - it does not mean I am obsessed with it.

I really fail to see how you can find so many problems with feminism but make no comment about the video clips posted earlier regarding Saudi men and their discrimination towards women.

Well let me say something about those Saudis: they can't be humans! They have a barbaric culture, they oppress women and blatantly violate not only the rights of women but human rights as a whole. Have you ever asked yourself how come they can do all this so openly? There are so many different stories in it and many of them are linked to the civilized part of the world.

Anyway, coming back to our original discussion, I did not direct that post to you exclusively. It just sums my idea about feminism and that's all.

If I needed an example maybe I would chose catwoman. She is way more feministic than you and God knows I feel sorry for her.

Feminism is the result of oppression.

Wearing headscarf is not oppression.

Anything that is done willingly is not oppression. It's Freedom. It's Human Rights.

By the way, in islam, men have a dressing code to abide too.. not just women. The equity in Islam. Read & Learn before critisizing.

How do you defend Islamic states and their "equality" to women zettea?

When you enter a SAUDIA plane from Riyadh Airport, all Saudi ladies are attired in their black outfits and veils.

By the time the plane lands in Istanbul, you can not find a single lady in black.

Exactly the reverse happens on the flights from Istanbul to Riyadh.

I figure something eats all the SAUDI ladies in black on the planes to Istanbul, than gorges them back out on the return flights. during the 3.5 hour flight.

What do you think?

I used to organise conferences for the oil industry. It was an amazing event with delegates from all over the world.

We used to notice a very strange trend. Year after year, who were the ones in the bars at 3pm, drunk and asking the staff where they could get prostitutes?

Ahh yes, the muslim delegates.

Clearly Allah does not see what happens in the UK....(or Turkey, if Alpha's post is anything to go by )

You see Aenigma all Christians are not like Jesus Christ and that doesn't prove the Christian faith sucks.

If you ask me you should stop making religion related generalizations. It doesn't have anything to do with their religion. Did they believe in some other religion they'd still wish to be with prostitutes because prostitution is a service given by women of all religions and as long as the customer pays they don't mind what they believe in. They will probably never bring up that matter and continue considering themselves as either Christian or Muslim persons.

I am not making generalisations - I am merely stating what I observed with my own eyes.

Actually - all religions suck! They are man-made and create hypocracy.

What Saudis consider as their religion is a compilation of their age long traditions and ways.

Just picture yourself on top of a camel riding nowhere in an endless desert. What sort of a culture would you develop? They were either caravan riders or bandits robbing those caravans. They are not even good at handy work nor do they have a nice kitchen.

The desert preserved their culture for centuries. When England artificially created those countries those tribesmen were told that they were actually Arabs and when it turned out that there was oil in their land they began spending their petrodollars for the construction of a medieval civilization that would run without having to move a finger. Everyone loves those who ride the gravy train.

Because we are a more open society and closer to West in many ways, foreigners like to criticize us a lot. The real hypocricy is playing the three monkeys when it comes to economically sanctioning such a barbaric regime while destroying the land of another by stating make believe reasons.

So, do you also agree that it is wrong to point your finger at Islam. There is an ongoing campain that tries to depict Islam as a satanic belief.

If your mind is bad, you can blow someone's brain and claim you did it for God's sake. You did what you did and you did it personally. When you see things like this, maybe you can consider this problem in the context of Islamic fundamentalism. In the end, Saudi regime is responsible for that.

The point I am trying to make is, Saudi skies will probably never see US jets bombing their land because they don't pose a threat to the US. On the contrary, they are a close ally and are great friends.

I am too sleepy...

Well your reaction will never gain ground as long as you are equally reactant and protestive to those who foster these regimes.

STOLEN : MARBLE BUST OF VEILED WOMAN

Palmyran Statue Fragment of a Veiled Dancer

Bronze statuette of a veiled and masked dancer, 3rd–2nd century B.C.; Hellenistic

Well I would say "unless". Yawwnn

Funnily, the original link now goes to the main article, "53 year old woman runs off with her 26year old Moroccan lover" after meeting him on holiday she is going to marry him! Daughter is not amused

(I think this page changes on a daily basis)

But there are some other amusing articles that feed the professional femminist

i believe you are not forced to wear hijab but dont you ever question why God orders that? dont you ever think that it is not fair to order wearing hijab not to let men get aroused? dont you think it is insulting women? i am not saying these to offend you.i am really just trying to understand logic of hijab..i cannot accept such things unconditionally like most muslims do!

Hi Elham

As I was the first to respond to Roswitha's post with a negative vibe, I assumed you were targeting me as anti-Muslim. Apologies if I was incorrect.

But there is a point I would like make here please, just so you (that is a plural you) may understand us yabancilar. I get the feeling that a lot of covered ladies are consistently provoking the general public. Not a month goes by now where some covered girl is not in the press suing somebody because of her headscarf. I, for one, don't have any problems with headscarves (I do have a problem with the hajib or full blacked out robes - like AEnigma I feel the is opression to women).

For me the problem begins when these women start pushing and pushing their point. It sometimes seems that they do not EVER see things from another point of view. They are totally fixed on their own views and beliefs only and no matter what it costs tax-payers or courts, they are willing to drag things through the courts, European courts and tribunals.

There simply are certain expected things in every country, culture, race that just are the way things are. If you chose to live somewhere else, then you should expect things to be different and not always the same as back home. I live in Turkey, such an amazinng place, but very different for a Christian in so many ways, ways perhaps you will never understand, but I don't kick and scream and get myself into the national press, courts and tribulnals for it all. It is just the way it is and I chose to live here.

Maybe that is why I took immediate, and perhaps unjustified, offence at your first post Elham.

And besides, where is Roswitha. She has a habit of posting these fiesty little news articles that we all know will kick up a fuss, then she disappears without a word !!!! cheeky thing !!!

I don't think there is a need for apologies here. I thought you post was very accurate and we all have our own opinions on the matter. I welcome your contribution to this topic.

This thread has gotten quite long the past couple of hours and I dont have time to read all of it so I would just like to direct a post to the original topic.

I think some people don't realize that hijabis were not born with a hijab and don't wear it around the clock, many only when there are men around, so they may very well take it off when they are working in a salon.
Any why couldn't a hair dresser wearing a hijab be just as good as one without? The hijabi hairdresser may have a sassy hairdo underneath and even if she doesn't, it's kind of like a bald stylist as someone mentioned at the beginning. I do, however, know of several hairdressers who cover their hair when they go out on the street but takes it off when they're at work as long as only women enter the salon.
A while ago I went to a hairdresser in Hakkâri who was wearing a hijab and she did a real nice job so personally I couldn't care less.

I truely appreciate what you are saying Azade. However, why are the rights of this woman more important than the rights of the shop owner to hire who he/she wants? If this is not an image they want protrayed in this salon, why should he/she be forced to hire her just to avoid a lawsuit? Maybe she was a crappy hairdresser...did anyone think of that? Maybe the shop owner found someone more qualified and this woman is assuming that she wasn't hired because of her veil. People are very quick to cry descrimination. I have been thru this before in my professional life. I was accused of denying benefits to a Muslim man. It did not matter that he did not meet the criteria for this particular benefit...he just assumed it was because he was Muslim. Strangly enough, as soon as he learned that my husband is Muslim....his tune changed a little....and he apologized. WOW...all of a sudden I am not decriminating against him!!

Elisabeth - they same thing happened to someone I know in the UK. A Pakistani lady keep lifting up some porcelain trinkets in a charity shop (in the UK) and the shop worker asked the lady to please put them down unless she was going to buy something (in case of breakages). Immediately and WITHOUT hesitation, the woman screamed YES screamed not spoke - screamed, it's because I'm a Paki isn't..... she threated to lodge a complaint of racism. The worker in the shop was very distraught and upset. Fortunately, no complaint was lodged and the lady never came back.

Believe me, these people seem to be crying immediate discrimination because they know that they can, perhaps they enjoy it, perhaps they like to drain taxes, court time and instigate provocation.

Yes, some to seem to gain a very fast and thorough understanding of our laws....but I think it is hilarious that they are the first claim they can't speak English or they didn't understand something when they are challenged!! But I digress....that happens everywhere, I am sure.

to my feelings and beliefs i want to wear loose baggy pants at work, but they tell me to wear white shirt and black skirt
f... managers!

Despite all the HR training companies go through, apparently we make up our minds when interviewing someone in the FIRST 30 SECONDS!!!! It is also a fact that beautiful people have more successful careers...

Who says appearence does not matter!

My job is in healthcare administration. At one point in time, I was interviewing a nun who was also a nurse. I told her that if she wanted to work here, she would be required to remove her habit. She did....no lawsuit, no arguement. She understood that employment was conditional to her adhering to certain rules that everyone at this facility must abide by. Funny how some people think the rules don't apply to them.

It wouldn't be much fun without these discussions. I enjoy hearing different points of view even if I am at odds with them, in fact the more opposed I am to them, the more interesting I find it.

Femme you mix up reasoning with faith. Your mind tells you that Islam is wrong, biased towards males etc. For a believer what you are saying doesn't hold any water at all. Because there is no reason in religion there are just revelations which prohibit certain things and allow others. When you believe in God, you do not stand a chance to appear in front of God and say what you are ordering me is wrong. Essentially, your brain is a product of God therefore if God says you are a mob you wouldn't help getting dipped in a bucket and wipe the ground. There are no freedoms in religion except for those granted by God.

You are free to believe in whatever you want but you are not welcome to criticize other believers. I usually think I am a reasonable person who has some intelligence. Do I know what human was made for? I don't have the first idea. I don't know who God is. I don't know what God expects of us. I really don't understand those who have devoted themselves to one of the available options. Nevertheless, I can't claim to know more than they do about what man's duty in this universe is.

Do you sincerely hope to start a new fashion in countries where women voluntarily or unvoluntarily wear hijabs by shouting those slogans? Who will care about your invitations? How do you hope to achieve that before correcting the major failures of those societies in other departments?

Such things require a lot of self-sacrifice; painstaking efforts, years of work and careful planning. Proving that is so easy. Would you devote your personal resources to free one such Afghani woman and watch her transform herself into a Western woman. Unless you physically change her environment and support her for an extended period of time she cannot complete the transformation as quickly as you are implying in your slogans. Were the civilized female population geniunely interested in this problem, there would be people who'd actively fight for this cause and free a number of individuals every year.

Last but not least, slogans can be effective but in the end, it is the deeds that matter. As we Turks say: "Don't pound water in a mortar"

No there is a mistake, you are not criticizing opinions but the fundamental decisions an individual makes in her life.

We are free to criticize opinions but we have no authority to criticize private decisions unless of course they are made by our very close friends.

So if somebody makes a fundemental decision in life to become a terrorist, I should not criticise either?

Such fundemental decisions are already punishable by law, so nothing is left uncovered. Our ancestors must have thought about that already. Terrorists are either shot down in mountains or apprehended by the police.

Ok you are welcome to completely disagree with me. You will however say good bye to the possibility of having any sort of agreements with those whose private decisions you criticize. As the word suggests, a private decision concerns someone's own life. If it does not it is not a private decision, if it is and if some other person pokes her nose into her decision than we have more problems than when we started.

Congratulations on your country then but I prefer my country...

There are also levels of criticism, ways of delivering it, etc.
See if what you really wanted to do was to teach me something about life, you would need to do it in a different manner. Oha has this backfired. Empathy is supposed to be learnt as a teen as far as I remember....

Well, in that case, I should apologise to people here who may sometimes feel offended that I find their personal decision to ignore cruelty, oppression, murder in the name of honour, abuse and rape abhorrent! I realise that it is not a crime to ignore such things and therefore you may not be shot or arrested by police for taking this decision. (Vineyards' definition of the only things I may critcise)

I would hate to offend their feelings!

What a selfish world this is..

You look very graceful in that traditional dress Azade. What region is that?

Hey, let's forget about this topic and enjoy ourselves. It is party time.

Alameda don't patronise me!!! You know VERY well what I am talking about!!!

3rd century BC!!!!
The whole bloody world was, and to a certain extent is STILL in a patriarchal society!

Luckily some have progressed, however unwillingly it was received by men, because we have basic human rights as women that have to be met!

...ask Elham if she wears a headscarf because she is having a "bad hair day"....

Offfffffff ya!

...tell me why 15 girls died in a fire because their "rescuers" decided that because they were not wearing this "headwear of choice" they could not be taken outside where the ever-tempted eyes of men may be upon them!!

I hope those men enjoyed the view of their charred remains!

Alameda!!!! Audrey Hepburn?!?!?! We are not talking about scarfs as a beauty accessory!!!

OMG! I give up! How can you compare fashion scarves to scarves that are worn because your culture or religion says you should hide your "adornments" to prevent temptation or jealousy in men!!!!!!!!!!!

I am going to bed

even fashion scarves can be dangerous... just think of Isadora Duncan )))

What was the name of that famous actress who got strangled by her scarf getting caught by the car wheel? Was she Scarlet O'Hara?

Who was the one that was killed in that accident then?

Seems she wasn't as famous as the incident...

Many people think Rock Hudson sucked as an actor but I think differently. He was a classic. Someone whom I envied a lot when I was a child. A bit disillisioned though when I learned about his sexual tendency.

He must have been a GREAT actor. He fooled so many women for so many years (including my mother who adored him )

No but I suffer from aquaphobia. For that reason I swim very carefully. I never go too far.

As Aenigma said, he fooled people so much so that I got disillisioned on learning that he wasn't the guy I believed he was. (e.g. an uncle)

Did you see A Special Day that featured Sophia Loren and Marcello Mastroianni, that was one of the best films I've watched from that era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Special_Day

Another interesting dancer in that time was Loie Fuller

Loie Fuller (also Loïe Fuller, born Marie Louise Fuller) (January 15, 1862–January 1, 1928) was a pioneer of both modern dance and theatrical lighting techniques.

Fuller is responsible for the European tours of the early modern dancers (she was the first American modern dancer to perform in Europe), introducing Isadora Duncan to Parisian audiences and developing the acceptance of modern dance as a serious art form. Her 'Chinese dancers' were the subject of the second section of W.B. Yeats' poem 'Nineteen Hundred and Nineteen'.

All the feminist ladies I know look like men !

Is that a prereqisite to become a feminist?

Forget those trivial matters.

I hear Bush is in love with Condi and that Condi is unfortunately a lesbian (probably a feminist too).

It is all over google. Any truth in that?

Vineyards has a point in saying that someone who believes in the principles of his religion, will not reject something to 'later discuss it with God on the Day of Judgement'. And that is exactly why it is so hard to discuss these topics, because rather than a discussion between two different points of view, they are a discussion between someones fundamental ideas of life, and pure human reason.

For me, there is a difference between the belief in existence of god and the worshiping of god.
Im somewhere between agnosticism and deism, but far from worshiping one single omnipotent deity.

To speak for myself, I am 'against' headscarves for my own personal beliefs that it implies the inferiority of the woman. A woman might say that she puts it on willingly, but for me it means she accepts that her God sees women as inferior to men.

Id rather believe in the existence of a good God who will judge me upon my deeds and moral decisions in life, then lead a life full of rules that according to my human reasoning is unacceptable, but be sure of the mercy of God. (I am not referring to İslam, I am referring to religion in general. If anybody wishes to call me a kafir or a dinsiz, go ahead, but I wish not to be accused of being either anti- or pro-islamic since I am not).

As a reply to the post of FF to a youtube video of a western muslim girl stating that Arab men are sexy, i guess its about time we cover them up like a mummy too, LOOK how muslim girls talk about muslim men!

I love watching such videos because it proves to me that men can also be smart, fair and honest and whoever says that "men are assholes by nature" is a freaking idiot:

Pro Rad Fem: Men in sit-coms

Fair enough, in some countries the women have less rights. But how do you come up with such examples like momrmon women in america being second class?

Some more reasons for you Kirsty...

http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

that is your source?

Of course I do.

I am not trying to debate or argue, merley trying to understand why in the world you think all these people are second class citizens.

If you look at sites like that for you source of information no wonder you feel the way you do. You shouldn't believe everything you read... But that is ridiculous to say I am happy for women who are in situations or countries where they don't have freedom or rights.

Do you deny that pologamy exists in the Church of the Latter Day Saints?

yes i do!!!! and if your friend is mormon she would have told you that too!!!!

What is YOUR source kirsty? I too have Mormon friends who confirm the same things III is saying, so please, do tell...what is your source?

Kirsty I suggest you do a little bit of research. Pologamy was "formally" abolished in the Church of the Latter Day Saints in 1890. However, you can find MANY examples of it in the USA

yes I am mormon

Illegal, still doesn't stop the perverted.

Anyway, I have no wish to offend you or your religion Kirsty. So will not post about this anymore

I watched the series 'Big Love' a few times, it was a sort of drama series, about a mormon-family in the USA. It was horrible, the guy had 3 wives, but they all seemed to want it that way. They had this sort of sister-relationship with each other, and the man spend each night in someone elses house. They would argue who got the news about his promotion (in career) first, who was the best mom etc, but still they accepted their position and even seemed to like each other!!

Ofcourse this was a very one sided 'dizi', but I was still shocked that this exists. For me, jealousy and selfishness are healthy in a certain proportion in a love-relationship. Some things are not to be shared. They obviously think otherwise.