ISTANBUL – Activists and sex workers in Turkey are working on a project to establish Turkey’s first sex workers union. They are hopeful about finding a solution to their problems and changing society’s approach toward sex workers. They will organize an awareness walk to bring attention to their issues

An initiative to establish a union for sex workers in Turkey has been proceeding slowly but patiently for almost a year.

Several activists plan to establish a trade union to protect the health, security and education rights of sex workers in Turkey, where the majority of them work without licenses or social security.

“People should have the right to voluntarily chose to be a sex worker. One has to have sovereignty over his or her body,” said Buse Kýlýçkaya, an activist from Ankara-based Pembe Hayat Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender, or LGBT, association. Kýlýçkaya said if they can establish a union, it would be the first for Turkey’s sex workers.

Activists and sex workers are hopeful about establishing a union, believing that it will help acknowledgment of this type of labor as a viable profession and will protect their rights in many aspects.

“We are against forced sex labor,” said Kýlýçkaya. “But this is the oldest profession on Earth and this will continue to be done by some people. This is why those people’s rights need to be protected.”

Prostitution is mentioned in the Turkish Penal Code and sex workers have to be registered according to the law. However, statistics show that many sex workers are unregistered and have no health or social security.

More: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10309517.asp?gid=243

******

Turkey will be the 3rd country in the world with a union like that, according to this article.

 - sorry for laughing but when I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to be another dudu thread!! Honestly!!

 Maybe they can join too?

do you have msn we must talk this there?)

 For MSN requests you should ask TheHandsom.....

 is he your boyfriend or Husband???

 he will get angry about ur reaction. or his  Angels (lady in red, deli kýzýn, catwoman bla bla) will attack you now.

I liked your living room)

You´re probably in shock now dear!  Take my advice go and lie down in a darkened room for a while and try to get the image out of your mind!! 

Wind, are you ´wind´ as in ´wind-up´ or ´wind´ as in ´a cool breeze´ or ´wind´ as in ´a digestive problem?

 Hmmm, difficult choice....

 welcome to hotel california

 You mean YOU´RE DEAD?????  

 A while? At least a month!

 Did you post this in the wrong thread?  Anyway...have noted that you want this song for your funeral

 welcome is ur living room is nice also?

 Good choice though!  I think I´ll pinch that one

 Not sure if the "you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave" would be appropriate - unless you intend to haunt us!  

 Am I missing something?

Should I know what this means?

 Wind is in surreal mode today

 what do you think about sex workers???

 ..at my funeral??   No thanks! 

 do you know any?

 OMG!

(LIR you are making me cry laughing here!)

 only english people would laugh this

 are you offering to introduce me to some?

 no u should introduce some to trudy she can interview with then and post another topic

 Give me your email and I´ll start interviewing right now.

 wrong address baby u can see me only ur dream

 God, please, no more nightmares about Turkish men.

 hahaha what??? no more????  how many before. I wonder all they once or in different times

 ´Unpleasant and disturbing´ when others are around. Maybe that helps you narrow down your choices

Great news!

Btw I also first thought it was about Dudus!!!

Several activists plan to establish a trade union to protect the health, security and education rights of sex workers in Turkey, where the majority of them work without licenses or social security.

Do you think they will extend this from Istanbul to the resorts where many of the sex workers are but would never admitt that thier profession is as a sex worker and resort worker second ( im not saying they all this way just many).

Some of these people think they cant get an STD because they have been circumcised! Education is needed but with the workers firstly. I´d be interested to know what the female sex workers know about thier own health in relation to the activities they participate in, is it factual or chinese whispers.

Think of the tax money Turkey could gain every year from from the ´darling can you help me, my father needs an operation ´ brigade.  

 Seems that this topic is about dudu´s after all.....

 Ouh winnieeeeeeeeeeeeee

I likeee

I should have added you to my list you bed Brit

Apologise - being new to this site i am covering old ground

Ouh winnieeeeeeeeeeeeee

I likeee

I should have added you to my list you bed Brit

List??? Do i want to know?

Winnie01 - potential for lots more Winnies

I´m obviously missing the joke here but if i reading into it correctly there would appears some tone to imply that i was involved with a member of this brigade i refer to.

I maybe wrong and would hope i am as i would hate to think this was my welcome to the site.

But for your information anyway no i wasnt.    

Sorry for the confusion Winnie

I loved your post and commented that I should have added you to a list (a joke on another thread).

Sorry about that and welcome

a low and desparate remark.

Btw, LIR, you are HILARIOUS!!!

Well no, it´s not such great news at all. It is a step towards making prostitution legal and accepting it as something normal in the society. Which means that we are going to say nothing about women being routinely sold to men, I can´t think of a more humiliating ´job´. That also means that demand for more brutal, illegal prostitution will only increase, which has proven to be the case in countries that legalized prostitution.

The best solution I have seen is the Swedish one -- criminalizing the johns and providing support to prostitutes. And eliminating factors that drive women to prostitution, like poverty and misogyny.

 Agree 100%.

 Actually I do too, especially put in the way you said it, CW (I should read something abotu Swedish system). And what you said about countries with legalized prostitution is true. Actually here it has given way for the loverboy-system that has put more, very young women behind the windows. Not to mention the traffic in women that is coming up from East europe to be sold here in Amsterdam (to name 1 city).

However I am not against the legalisation of prostitution as a profession. I am not talking about men selling women obviously, but about women and men deciding for themselves to offer their bodies for money. I see nothing wrong with that, and it is not an illussion that there are people who actually enjoy that kind of work.

Don´t mix up prostitution as a chosen job and the ´trade´ in women or forced prostitution like the loverboys use. The Dutch union for sex workers is very much against all those forced types but just wants opportunities for safe work, insurances, social security etc. Like DK I don´t think there is anything wrong with a woman or man who themselves want to do that type of work. It´s quite moralistic to tell that others cannot choose their jobs just because you don´t like it.

I actually agree with legalising prostitution, if it is controlled properly.  One thing you have to remember many women chose to do this, (would not be for me I must admit) but I do not condem women who chose this route.  And I don´t think prostitution is all about men, but in many case about women, and often they control the situation.

Perhaps you should all read the book "Call me Elizabeth" and then you get the picture. 

Of course it´s not the women who should be condemned here, they are just like sweatshot workers who find themselves in the system that oppresses and sells women. It is the system that has to be changed, and that is guilty for this. It´s not the women who are often forced and fooled into this kind of ´job´ who are to be blamed here. Selling human sexuality is quite unexcusable in the 21st century in a developed country. Of course it´s unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

The fact taht some women choose or even enjoy it is not an argument at all. It doesn´t change what prostitution is and what it means in our patriarchal society, male dominated power structure and misogynistic ideology. It does not change the fact that prostitution in the world is a result of women´s lower status, poverty, sexual abuse, women not being empowered in the society, at homes and not having full control over hteir own bodies, and women being taught that sexual exploitation of women´s bodies is something women should internalize as their natural role. Prostitution is not an individual liberty issue.

 You are way too feministic here. The women who choose that work voluntarily do not think about ´internalizing sexual exploitation´. They think about their job as a job, they want to make money. When it is a job choosen in liberty, I DO think it is an individial issue.

You should read this: http://www.rodedraad.nl/index.php?id=221  the site of De Rode Draad, Dutch union of sex workers. Especially on the left hand side the part ´Why domestic work is not always...´ (Site is in English)

 I do agee with some of what you are saying but how do you view male prostitution?  Male on male and then the male escort for the affluent female?  There are many facets to prostitution and not always degrading. 

 +1

I agree. And the idea that sexuality cannot be sold? Why not? Why can I sell my thoughts or get paid for working in a factory, or get paid for having a beautiful voice, but then when I decide I want to make money from my sexual ´expertise´, it suddenly is unexcusable? I really don´t see why. It sort of sounds like sex is something holy and that women should understand it as such. And thinking of it that way sounds either religious or patriarchal ´woman needs to stay virgin till marriage´.

And you forget that there are also men selling themselves.

Trudy, do not label me as "feministic" please. These are my views that simply stem from logic and humanity. If a job can put you at risk of being killed, brutalized, get serious diseases, you do not say "oh, but some people don´t get killed in this job", right? Why is it that you consider prostitution as a normal ´job´, but you have no concern for the hazards of it? Where do you think these hazards come from? These hazards in fact are part of what the johns are buying here. And you are completely ignoring the larger context, you are talking exactly like slavery supporters did back in the day.

I don´t know enough about male on male escorts to comment about it.

First: I DO see the hazards, that´s why I support a union for women that have choosen the job themselves. Views like yours make that this job will never be accepted so dangers will always be there. Besides, if dangers make a job unacceptable, I know many more jobs that are.

Second: Thanks for calling me a slavery supporter.

Third: Your own quote from a couple of weeks back about you being a feminist was:

First: you do not see the fact taht what johns are buying IS domination and all the things that pose risk to the women. Even if you make a union for women, it will not eliminate the root of the problem, it will only make it worse.

Second: I apologize if my comment came across as calling you a slavery supporter. What I meant is that your reasoning is similar to those of slavery supporters, which is basically -- rationalization.

Third: I call myself a feminist and feminism supporter, but you don´t know what my views are and how I define my feminism. I don´t like you calling my views ´feministic´ because you are making feminism a divisive issue by doing this, and you are discarding my arguments by labeling it in a way that will turn off many people from engaging in a conversation. This conversation has nothing to do with the feminist ideology or feminist theory, it is simply a conversation about humanity, society and equality in it. So please, stay away from labeling me.

I don´t KNOW, that´s true. Though I have the idea you define your ´feminism´ in a way that suits you and only when you like it. Labeling? Sorry, I was only using my freedom of speech and opinion.

 No I don´t see how a john buys domination from a woman if she is willing to spread her legs as long as he pays. Where exactly is the domination? The domination is there when your definition of female sexuality involves male domination.

Like I said before: why can I sell my voice on a cd, but if I want to sell my body it´s unexcusable?

 Very well said!

well... what is it that you are trying to say here dear Trudy? nothing constructive I´m afraid, nothing contributory. go ahead and use your freedom of speech the way you want, I just won´t bother replying.

Ok, DK you just proved your ignorance of the issue. There are many reasons why these women ´spread their legs´ and many reasons why a man might want to purchase that, one of them is a very degrading towards women perception of human sexuality that´s based on domination and banging a woman who is in pain while he´s doing that.

Please, how can you compare selling your sexuality to selling your talent and creativity and self realization?

Kitty, actually DK is right here. Do accept that there are women who decided to become prostitutes although they had a choice. Somehow whenever you discuss prostitution you view it as a hell men organised for women who are forced into it. It is not alwasy the case. Plus, remember that the sex business workers are not only prostitutes, they´re also strippers and the like. And they are both sexes on both sides (the provider and the client).

I am a feminist and I believe in freedom of choice. If an adult person (be it a man or a woman) decides to have sex for money, he or she should have all the right to do that legally. Legalising it means safer working conditions, control and taxes.

And I don´t understand why you consider earning money with paid sex more reprehensible than butchering animals or sweeping streets. It takes all sorts of people with all sorts of talents to make up society. Some consider sex a private or emotional thing, some don´t. For me it is all based on free choice. I am totally against human trafficking, drugging women and forcing them to be prostitues, but I cannot judge a woman wo decides to provide sexual service to men or who stars in porn films of her own will (that goes for men too)

I agree with you Trudy.

You cannot convert these people into some other form or just disregard them so that you can satisfy the expectations of those who want to grasp the world the way they want it to be. In fact, there is not much space in the real world for miracles. When we talk about prostitution we are talking about a phenomenon as old as man.

If these women are allowed to form their own unions or whatever that may protect them financially and make them safer, this will be good for them, good for us and for everyone for that matter.

Anyone thinking that people living in the world must be forced to adapt themselves to an angelic point of view should read Zoroaster who defined the true nature of both God and humans. In this world, there is malice alongside good. Einstein said you can destroy an atom but you can´t destroy a prejudice all that easily. Likewise, we can apply these two all qualities of humanity. Good and bad must exist together and Islam says only God knows what is really good and what is bad.

Remember Maria Magdelana was a prostitute too.

DD, since when are you the judge as to who is right or wrong? Maybe you should have said that you think DK is right.., eh!?

The prostituted women, with few exceptions, have as much of a choice as chinese factory workers who have to work 12 hours a day for a few dollars and who are exposed to all kinds of harmful substances and later die prematurely of some disease because of that. Yeah, maybe in your view they have a choice.

 Yes. There are indeed many reasons. And I am definitely on your side when it comes to reasons of domination or poverty, amongst others. Ofcourse no male domination or economic hardship (in a male dominated society) should be forcing factors into unwanted prostitution. Let me just be clear about that: no forced prostitution and no male dominated society where the ideas of female sexuality are based upon the demands of men.

But, Again this is about your perception of sex and sexuality: sex involves male domination and a woman being penetrated in a painful way and can not enjoy it, and sexuality has to do with your gender.

The idea of a union is, amongst others, for men and women to have the right to refuse clients or to refuse to perform or take part in certain things. Your idea of sex kind of seems to involve the idea of an asexual woman without wishes or preferences. You´d be surprized there are women who enjoy being banged. 

Many forms of pornography and prostitution are very degrading for women. But that does not make pornography or prostitution in itself degrading.

So what I understood from your post is that point of view like mine is just moralizing and wishing for a perfect world. Well, actually not, this situation is very similar to slavery. You can find justifications for the existence of prostitution, just as slaves have existed for thousands of years as well, and if some people didn´t say that it´s simply wrong, it would still exist to this day.

It is very simple to eradicate things like prostitution, simply address the root of the problem -- punish the johns for their misogynistic attitudes toward women´s sexuality.

I am completely unaware of what you mean by ´asexual woman´, much more unaware of what I think about this (according to you), so maybe you should tell me more what I think.

I have said it earlier that this is not related to what some individual women may like or not, it is a larger issue. It has absolutely nothing to do with how individual women express and enjoy their sexuality.

I happen to think that pornography and prostitution is degrading and vulgar to women, all forms of them that I know. There´s no ´better or worse exploitation of women´ -- it´s all exploitation.

 I am talking about these few exceptions as an ideal. I wasnt talking about ´prostitution in general´ or ´prostitution in the Netherlands´ or something. I was merely talking about those exceptions, and why I don´t think it is degrading in itself.

Your idea of prostitution according to above comparison has to do with a boss, workers, minimum pay and maximum effort and no rights to protect them. The idea of prostitution that I have no problems with, is one of independent workers (callcentre, at home, behind the window, giving massages or coming as a stripper on a bachelor party, you name it, male or female), that work under protected circumstances with the right to refuse clients and acts, that work on their own times and that are insured.

 Then let´s agree to disagree. I don´t think you´ll be able to explain me what is so degrading about pornography and prostitution. And I don´t think I´ll be able to make you understand that indeed the large picture of women traficking and male domination in forced prostitution is wrong, but that THAT specific (and big) aspect of ´sex industry´ doesn´t necessarily make it more degrading to have sex and get money than to bake cookies and get money. I really don´t see the difference, because of my own perception of what sex is, and what it can be.

These few exceptions are also a product of patriarchy. They are a product of a sexist culture in which you become a star after you release a sex tape, where a woman has to market herself half naked, but not a man, if she wants to be considered a star or a sought after artist. A culture that glamorizes this kind of definition of womanhood and femininity. As a girl  growing up in this kind of culture, you see your sexuality through male-defined ideology of your own sexuality, and in that ideology you are an object. These exceptions are women who grew up in a culture that sets being able to excite a man as the highest standard for a woman. So... yeah... I am not so sure if I support that! (sarcasm: I don´t support).

My idea of prostitution according to that example is a work because of lack of choices. Work that damages you inside and out. And your examples of bachelor parties, strippers...etc.. is what constructs our misogynistic culture and shapes men´s sexist ideas and despicable views of women.

Selling sex and selling cookies? One basic idea when you sell sex is that the man has the right to do anything that he wants to you. That is what they are buying. When you legalize prostitution and forbid men to abuse prostituted women, they will stop coming there and instead they will look for a new black market of illegal prostitution in which he will be able to buy abusive sex.

We clearly do not talk about the same type of sexuality or pornography or prostitution. Anyway I have to work tomorrow so I´m off to bed.

May it be clear that I am against the same things you are. I only really don´t agree with your definition of female sexuality and female exploitation. And the exceptions you speak of are apparantly different from the ones I speak of as well. Anyway. I´ll agree to disagree and wish you a good night

Catwoman; this is the world that we are living in. If you ever tried to materialize at least just a few of the things you proposed you´d understand how unlikely it is to succeed in the end.

If you actually take a cap and go to places where these women work; you will find most of them are characters usually even more dominant than the men they are serving.They will probably not even let you speak.

On my street there are many high class hookers riding around in their fancy BMW´s. They set the rules, make it quick and safe for them. I have been told most clients are either too old or too drunk to actually do something to these women. How do I know all these? There is a well-known secret that 90% of men cheat their wives and some do it with prostitutes. Males are sex hungry.

I thank God everyday for not being like those men. Amen.

Good night canim, hope we can continue the conversation later.

I respect your view Vineyards, but I refuse to agree on a world where we cheat and exploit each other. You seem to accept it. There´s no doubt that there are women who financially benefit from patriarchy, if they play it right, and if they accept their role. Humans accomodate to anything, but that doesn´t make it right, and doesn´t change the fact that the majority of women suffer immeasurably - directly and indirectly.

I recently came across two prostitutes in Turkey. It was obvious what they were even though they were out in a normal bar with two men. My initial reaction was disgust and horror to be honest and I judged them.

I happened to go to the bathroom the same side of them however, and changed my mind about these women. It was obvious that the one was very upset whilst the other tried to comfort her.

My partner explained to me that they were not turkish but of some arabic decent (you could tell by the accent) and that they are were most likely part of the sex trafficing. I do believe that there needs to be a union to help these kinds of people, but surely its takes free will to sign up to these kind of these and so would only be avaliable to those who had it...not the poor girls I saw.

Yes, there has to be help provided for these women. However, if we don´t address the roots of the problem, it will never be solved. As it is shown by the facts that we´ve been fighting with these problems forever and they are not going away.

your correct...it is at the end of the day the oldest occupation. I´m just so thankful that it isnt my path. I´d love to do domething to help these girls!

what we all should do is to challenge sexism... that will set the ground for a true transformation of the culture so that women never have to find themselves in such circumstances.

Yes I agree, but this is such a huge task I have no doubt that this type of problem shall continue for a very long time!

this is an age old debate and will be continually debated for some time

i totally agree that in situations where the sex worker has no choice or is forcably made to work in the industry then it can be considered degrading or as a form of domination.

I have worked very closely with ladies who have chosen the sex industry as their "profession", their thoughts far from being degraded, feel that they hold the upper hand. They are in control, they make the rules, and god help the "punter" that steps out of line. The men come to them, the men pay them, the men play by their rules...... Who is the degraded one here!!. 

Some of the ladies used this job to pay their way through uni, they were smart, strong, opinionated women..... hey some even admited they liked the sex part!!!

while my heart goes out to the workers who get trapped and forced into this trade....thankfully i, personally have not come across those who have experienced this first hand

there will always be a sex trade while people want sex and are willing to pay for it!

so if a trade workers unions gives more protection then they should have it ....... but if it is anything like my union they will be screwed either way anyway!!!!

I thought I had addressed the issues you brought up...

when you bring up the word ´choice´, also check on the other options...

please, reserarch the facts about the numbers of prostitutes that are raped, abused, brutalized, traumatized... etc. Just because you know 1 or 2 prostitutes who seem to ´have the upper hand´ doesn´t mean anything.

this is what I get from the first google result!!!

For women who are prostitutes, rape is every bit as traumatic as it is for women who are not sex workers. It may even be more painful, as the act reopens old wounds and buried memories of unbearable abuse. In fact, prostitutes demonstrate many of the same characteristics as soldiers returning from the battlefield.

In the 1990s, researchers Melissa Farley and Howard Barkan conducted a study on prostitution, violence against women and post traumatic stress disorder, interviewing 130 San Francisco prostitutes. Their findings indicate assault and rape are all too commonplace:

Eighty-two percent of these respondents reported having been physically assaulted since entering prostitution. Of those who had been physically assaulted, 55% had been assaulted by customers. Eighty-eight percent had been physically threatened while in prostitution, and 83% had been physically threatened with a weapon....Sixty-eight percent...reported having been raped since entering prostitution. Forty-eight percent had been raped more than five times. Forty-six percent of those who reported rapes stated that they had been raped by customers.

Prostitution research FAQs:

- "About 80% of women in prostitution have been the victim of a rape. It´s hard to talk about this because..the experience of prostitution is just like rape. Prostitutes are raped, on the average, eight to ten times per year. They are the most raped class of women in the history of our planet. "

- Other studies report 68% to 70% of women in prostitution being raped

- 78% of 55 women who sought help from the Council for Prostitution Alternatives in 1991 reported being raped an average of 16 times a year by pimps, and were raped 33 times a year by johns.

- 85% of prostitutes are raped by pimps.

- 62% reported having been raped in prostitution.
73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.
72% were currently or formerly homeless.
92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.

- 83% of prostitutes are victims of assault with a weapon.

- A Canadian Report on Prostitution and Pornography concluded that girls and women in prostitution have a mortality rate 40 times higher than the national average.

- Many of the health problems of women in prostitution are a direct result of violence. For example, several women had their ribs broken by the police in Istanbul, a woman in San Francisco broke her hips jumping out of a car when a john was attempting to kidnap her. Many women had their teeth knocked out by pimps and johns.

- In one study, 75% of women in escort prostitution had attempted suicide. Prostituted women comprised 15% of all completed suicides reported by hospitals.

- Like combat veterans, women in prostitution suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a psychological reaction to extreme physical and emotional trauma.

-In 1999, the Swedish Parliament put into effect a law which criminalizes the buying of sexual services but not the selling of sexual services. This is a compassionate, social interventionist legal response to the cruelty of prostitution.

- and much much more........ read on your own

 Whether or not you have addressed the issues I have brought up does not mean I loose the right to contribute to the discussion.

I am fully aware of all the dangers(and there is no denial of the statistics) that face the workers in this  industry and have been involved in educating more than just one or two .

As I said while there is a need for a service there will always be providers rightly or wrongly, I just fear if we are not more open and supportive that the need for this role exists it will be pushed underground and totally governed by the "johns" (i´ve never heard them called this) and we will cease to hear of the statistics that we do hear about.

I will reply, whether you will or not I don´t care. You seem to be only able of dramatising. Several members said they are, like me, against forced prostitution but they don´t condemn the women who have chosen this profession. They also don´t see it all as ´slavery´ or ´male domination´. You do. You can only see the traumatised stories but not, like Lesluv did, the uni-stories - and these stories are less rare then you might think. Everytime whenever it comes to the position of women, it is always in your view caused by male dominance. Women are ´internalizing male views´ and therefor always the victim of the patriarchal system. Yes, sometimes they are, but sometimes not. You don´t see (want to?) that some prostitutes are very, very strong women who defenitely can look after themselves, who don´t have or need a pimp. Those women want that job, they are aware of dangers (therefor they want a union and legalising), but surely THEY are in charge in the negotiation between them and their johns. You sound to me like the evangelising priest who is talking about hell and doom to save souls. I doubt if you ever have spoken to a prostitute in real life or if this is only ´wisdom´ out of books.

I can´t believe you replied Trudy!  How VERY dare you!

 Sorry. What is my punishment? Writing 200x ´I will not reply´?

 No dear, in fact I was going to invite you to the shallowest group of all, the NCOCP Club!!! (Nothing ´Constructive or Contributary´ Posts Club).

I have been a sole member for some time and would enjoy the company

(PS. You will have to increase your quota a bit though - maybe 100 a day? )

Kitty, every single post that I write expresses MY opinion unless I quote a source.

I don´t know how much you had to do with sex business, although I can´t say I´m paricularly interested in this issue or know a lot about it, I have met and talked to a prostitute and a former bouncer from a brothel is a good friend of mine. The prostitution you refer to is to be condemned - everybody agrees with that - sex slaves and abused women. But why do you fail to accept that not all the people in this business are there by force? Yes, some people like it, for some people it was not the last resort job, some consider themselves better than McDonald´s stuff. Your moral code is not a universal one, for some selling their bodies is less of a problem than, say, nursing old people in nursing homes. If people decide to provide sexual services they should do it in the safest way possible and trade union may help them.

 I meant male prostitutes for men (homosexuals) and male prostitutes for women (politely termed as escorts).

 Trudy, I fully agree with your post and that is why I mentioned the book "Call Me Elizabeth" the tru story (perhaps a little embelished) about a high class prostitute.

There are two facets to female prostitution as I see it,

1) forced sex slaves which I abhore

2) those who choice the profession, manage it and control it

Cat, you are very dramtic and only see the negative side, male dominated and all that, but this is not always the case.  Prostitution has been around for thousands of years and will no doubt go on, despite anything anyone tries to do about it.  It is taking peoples freedom of choice away.

One thing Vinyards mentioned about the males ability to perform with the prostitute, that is one thing that was repeated in the book above, most of the men were old, drunk, impotent or wanted buns thrown at their ****s.  No physical activity actually took place.

It is an interesting debate and interesting to see peoples views including the more radical ones.  But as far as I am concerned some of these women actually provide a very important service and are more than happy and willing to do so.  Surely it is far better to ensure that there are controls and support systems in place for those women who work at the more riskier end than trying to ban it altogether.

Although I am aware of the many dimensions into this topic, but I would like to go along with Cat.
In the end, as a man (or as a woman), you are buying a piece of flesh!! You are ´buying´ her and she has to please you during the agreed time..
It is a kind of slavery from my point of view.
Though personally I have never come a cross of a prostitute with upper hand, but I trust the post from lesluv. But, kk, they may determine the rules, price, what will be the agreed performance etc., in the end they are the ones whose service is bought..I can not see very much upper hand in that situation really.
I am sure there are many women out there who might have need more of it for their satisfaction and they might think that they would like to earn some money while doing it but I dont think I will ever come to think that selling sex is the right thing to do..(it might be possible in Europe but to be honest, in counties like my own country the sex workers are mainly low IQ women whom abused and used by their pimps and their clients) And I am sure those ´willingly doing it´ are quite marginal as far as the number are concerned but I would respect their choice of freedom.
And having union for these women in Turkey  might sound a good thing..But, personally, I find it hard to believe it is going to change anything for them at all..(I always thought that their relations with their pimps are quite primitive. That is the reason why I am spectical about a good out come )
I agree with cat about criminalizing it .. It should be criminalized for the people who are paying for it.
Although knowing the fact that it is not going to happen soon but, somebody, sometimes, should always tell ´what needs to be done´ and ´how it should be´..
Cat has been doing this on this topic, I think..

 I´m skipping your other points here for a bit because I think they have been discussed lots, and I should think a little more about what you said about primitive relations etc. I just wanted to reply to this part where you show your view about sex as a service.

In your opinion, any kind of work in which you give your time in order to fullfill another one´s need, is slavery. Think of an aupair: she is hired for an agreed amount of time for an agreed amount of money to do a thing which both parties agreed upon: cook a nice meal, clean the house. In other words: she has to please the people she is working for and gets paid for it.

Apparantly some people think that giving sexual pleasure is ´lower´ than cleaning someones toilet and cooking a meal for another woman´s children.

In the end it is all the same deal, but because sex is viewed by so many people as something very personal and very special, it becomes degrading to be able to buy it. Sex is just something people DO. It is not special or personal, at least, it doesn´t necessarily have to be.

 I really do not see why sex cannot be bought. What is this ´special´ helo that is around sex that makes people think it is something that can only happen between two people who know each other, care for each other etc? Why can´t it be between two complete strangers?

I totally agree with all the things CW has said about the complete wrong, male inspired image of what feminine should be, what female sexuality is, about all the malpractice in exploiting women, traficing, submission etc. There is a whole lot in the prostitution and in male dominated society that need be changed. But seeing it as a crime to sell and buy sex in itself? No.

 You really don´t know?

If you had sex without any emotion all your life, I think you would be very unhappy...

Being a prostitute does not mean you have all your life sex without any emotion, not businesslike, not private.

 I was not necessarily talking about prostitutes, it was in reply to DK´s comment about sex between two strangers.

But to use prostitutes as a good example, I don´t know any personally, but I never heard of a happy one in old age who thought "I am so glad I did that job"

Think of it differently. "while there is demand", "and circumstances that drive women to such a job", "there will be supply". There is also (presumably) a demand for serial killers, but you don´t go and say "because there´s demand, it´s good that they are there", I am sure you wish that that demand disappeared.

Women used to be housewifes across the board. That was a role every woman was doomed to fulfill, no matter anything. Most people were appalled and shocked if a woman were to be a thinker, a scientist... not a wife and mother. But societies can change. In these dark times today, the attitudes towards sexuality is very medieval, I would say, even in most developed places. It is completely male dominated, where men are predators and women are slaves, to describe it on both metaphorical and literal levels. There is still no sexual freedom for women and no sexual ideology that does not come from pornographers and women-objectifiers. This is what are are born and raised with. But, it doesn´t have to be this way, we can change and we can eliminate this ´demand´ from johns to buy a woman´s sexuality.

 No I don´t know.

And yes, you are right.

I won´t respond to the personal comments Trudy, you are not aware that I have good reasons behind what I say and it´s not simply dramatizing. If you write something contributory, I will respond of course.

Your last paragraph is especially interesting, and I think - it shows who your are ideas affected by, and that is the pornographers. You are buying into the argument of pornographers that any objection towards pornography or prostitution (and such), is necessarily a conservative religious position. Religions are known to be oppressive towards sexuality and most people cringe when you start talking about sexuality from a religious perspective, that perspective is completely outdated these days, and it is also based on patriarchal values and attributinig women a lower status. Most religions are also against prostitution and pornography, but they still argue from a repressive point of view regarding sexuality. Unfortunately, these days, they are the only vocal group that stands against the sex industry, so anybody who criticizes these issues is automatically identified with them. This is also used by the pornographers a lot, who discredit all criticizms by calling them ´repressive´.

There is also a different approach, the feminist critique of sex exploitation industries. This critique is based on the feminist critique of the society (we call it ´feminist critique´, but it is just a simple, logical and humanist point of view, that says that male domination is not a must in our culture). This position argues that one of the key points in patriarchy is male control of women´s sexuality. Sex industries don´t exist in a vacuum, they exist in a culture that uses women´s bodies as a commodity practically everywhere, culture that has only one conversation about sexuality - one that comes from the male dominated, hegemonic ideology. That ideology is based on male sexual domination of women. Every pornographic image is conveying this idea. This idea is central to all sex industries - pornography, prostitution, stripping...etc. You would not have these industries if you removed that aspect.

Trudy, in fact it is you who has no idea about real life prostitution. You don´t know the context in which it exists. You believe that there is real freedom of choice. I doubt that you ever ventured into gettos and slums where real prostitution thrives, the prostituts you know in ´real life´ are probably the ones in the red light district in Amesterdam. These women are just a diplomatic face to real prostitution. If you look at any statistics of abuse of prostitutes, you would never tell me that "it´s more common then I think that prostitutes are happy and feel fulfilled in their lives".

I find your ideas restricting for the sexual freedom for women. I agree with many things you say, but not with ´no to willingly offering sexual services´. Try to think of the wonderful image of a society that is no longer dominated by male opinion on anything whatsoever. Then the whole context in which prostitution and the sex industry exists, will change. But sex will remain a thing people do. And there are people who do it with emotion, people who do it without, or people who do both. There´s nothing degrading about having emotionless sex.

I´ll leave it here, unless there is another comment that makes me want to respond

These arrogant assumptions only make me laugh.

Well..

Apart from emotional part, I am against buying sex with the same view that I am against goverments buying weapons really.

Basically, paying for ´it´ is the starting point of the whole industry of prostitution which ultimately brings the whole degradation of women, rapes etc..

And about Why can´t it be between two complete strangers?. Of course it can be..I am not against it. But ´buying it´ is not the same as sex between two complete strangers..

I would rather prefer a woman goes down on me because she wants to, not because I paid her to do it..

So you favour guys who are taking it for free? Forced or by making empty promises for a ´real relationship´ and then leaving. I don´t honour the guys who pay but I find them more honest then the other two categories.

 Here´s some quotes from someone I think most in the UK have heard of , Cynthia Payne:

*By 1980, when I came out of prison, The Sun did a campaign to stop putting vice girls in prison. We´ve talked about it ever since and nothing has been done about it.


*Every time we had a raid, I´d get a boyfriend out of it. 


*Galvanised into action by the second trial, I was determined to change Britain´s archaic sex laws.


*I allowed the scriptwriter to come to my parties for research and it´s a good thing he did otherwise I don´t think Personal Services would´ve been so good.


*I always seemed to fall in love with policemen.


*I think all old folk´s homes should have striptease. If I ran one I´d have a striptease every week.


*I´m glad I haven´t married - I crave excitement.

*If men want sex they´ll find it.


*It´s been a rollercoaster life but it hasn´t been boring. 


*Like I said in my election manifesto - why don´t they legalise the whole thing and let people like me work?


*My biographer said that my parties reminded them of a vicarage tea party, with sex thrown in. 


*Once the film came out everyone wanted me, including George Michael.


*Vicars, MPS and lawyers were among those who considered me to be the best hostess in London. 


*When I look back at the 1980s I pinch myself. Did I really do all that?

This is quite interesting too, from the same lady, even funny:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2004/mar/25/features11.g22

Of course it is terrible that there are women forced into prostitution by men, but anyone is naive who doesn´t believe that there are women  who can actually think for themselves and decide to go into prostitution (or do anything else for that matter) on their own terms, without a conscience or regrets.

However did women get the idea that they should be allowed to vote?  Was it handed to them on a plate?  Absolutely not. 

btw  I´m against prostitution but I can´t see how it will ever be abolished and perhaps a lot of thought needs to be given to the safety of these women both physically and healthwise.  Thought should also be given to the wives of the men who visit prostitutes . . . their health should not be compromised because of the actions of their husbands. 

Since Cynthia Payne was no more than a female "pimp" or "madame", and the only "hands on" action she saw was to allow men to pay her to lock them in boxes and whip them, I hardly think she is a good example of the devastating effects of prostitution...

You are talking about sex as if it is a ´good´ up there..

as far as "making empty promises for a ´real relationship´ and then leaving" is concerned,  Turkish  men (we) are quite good at it.

So be extra careful..

It is, isn´t it? Many business, political and domestic ´deals´ are made with or through sex. Nice if you want to see it as something sacred but surprise.... in many cases there is a ´but/if´ behind.

In this case I wasn´t thinking about Turks. You guys don´t have the performing rights only.

Then we will talk about sex industries in those societies once we see how they work. The driving force for the current shape of them is not a willing, respectful transaction, that´s why it´s wrong.

Of course we favor people who do it for free, because then there are no expectations about having to do something you don´t actually want. You can always refuse anything without any repercussions.

The issue of false promises is a different issue, has nothing to do with the problem of prostitution.

 CW = Royal plural?

cranky today?

don´t be childish Trudy, respond to the issues.

There seems to be more than one discussion involved on this thread. 

From your above comment, it´s clear that it´s not only men that are pimps either .  I couldn´t have put it better myself.  There are women in this world that go into prostitution for what they themselves can get out of it, not because some man forced them into it. 

btw      Of course there are devastating effects of prostitution, I didn´t say anything contrary to this.

I responded several times in a very serious way. Childish are you with your assumptions what I´ve experienced, seen and know or not. You don´t know me nor my family, friends or background. You are just stubborn holding on to your theories, demanding that you are right.

OMG, don´t be so stubborn Trudy, open your eyes and accept the truth!

 Wasn´t that supposed to be my line towards you my dear

The only truth is that you will never change the fact that

you can talk on anything with pages and pages lol

 ha ha

That is certainly an interesting point of view though it sounds a bit subjective and preferential. It reminds us of the fact that these matters have both social and personal aspects and consequences. Catwoman and you are different people living in different social settings hence your reactions will be quite different.

We continually suffer from iron-clad points of view that attempt to restructure whole reality on simple tenets, an interest or a preference. If it were possible to view ourselves from outside we might give up being a hardliner seeing how obviously wrong our stance is. On a physical level it happened to me back in the 70´s when I actually observed myself on a video recording noting for the first time with surprize how different I look to others. Notwithstanding with my own perception about how I walk, how I sit etc, I seemed to have a certain otherwise invisible way of moving and displayed gestures differing from my own presumptions.  A similar experience can be gained if we can open up our doors for constructive criticism, noting the views of others about us. There is a danger of  being too dependant on others opinion  which can be avoided by moderation.

We should all be moderate not necessarily at the moment but eventually. That is why people need time for certain things.

Was it...? But I was being sarcastic and meant to show how ridiculous it is to say this...

 Probably the most sensible post of the whole thread

But my last word on the subject, is that if you regulation and legislate strongly then you will only drive it underground with far worse consquences.  I still believe their should be controls and systems in place to monitor and protect.  Those that work outside this, then regulation that already exists should be able to deal with it.