As part of its activities to mark today’s International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, the Konya-based Compassion Association (Þefkat-Der) has prepared a report titled “Excuses for Domestic Violence in Turkey and Recommendations from Women Victims on How to Avoid Violence.” 

The report is the result of the association’s findings after speaking with the 9,000 women and girls who have fallen victim to domestic violence and sought shelter with Þefkat-Der, which runs women’s and refugees’ shelters and works on behalf of oppressed peoples, since 1995.

The ‘reasons’ Turkish men abuse women

The report details the excuses Turkish men use for beating their wives: “The woman’s not wanting to engage in sexual activity, the woman’s gaining weight, her inability to bear children or her not bearing a male child, the food she’s cooked being too salty, burnt, cold or not according to the man’s tastes, not doing a good job ironing his clothing, being late in answering the door when he’s come home and knocked, the woman’s getting ill or not getting better after getting ill, leaving the home without permission, a couple’s child being unsuccessful, the home’s heater not being turned on, a child not looking like its father, the woman’s wanting a divorce, the woman’s interference in the man’s relationship with another woman, the working woman’s not giving her husband her entire salary, the refusal of ‘berdel’ [a type of arranged marriage], the woman’s wanting to work, the man’s being unemployed, family financial difficulty, the man’s soccer team losing a match, being warned by his wife about his alcoholism or gambling addiction, an argument between men about ‘machismo.

More: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=159723

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First: I know an article like this will attract reactions - some probably of the deniying kind but I found it too important that I still posted it.

Second: I highlighted some ´reasons´ for abuse and I know that is not only typical for Turkish males but that it happens everywhere for the same type of reasons in the world. But don´t shoot the messenger, it IS about Turkey and publiced in a Turkish newspaper...

I don´t believe there is a reason to shoot the messenger  , i agree as you said that this could be applied to perhaps any country or any family in the world.

 The men  gave these answers as excuses ( and not reasons why ) all i would say is it´s always easier to blame someone else for your own behaviour, but i would hope some responsibility could , be taken by these men (or so called men ) to sit up and be aware  !! nothing forces this as a response

( i do realise that this info was compiled by the women, but i am sure they were aware of the excuses their husbands told them for their abuse)

I would say, there are so many old-fashioned couples where husband is the king of the family for all intents and purposes. Contrary to what you may expect, in some cases even spouses being university graduates does not change the brutal treatment wives receive from their "primitive" husbands.  Many of those are arranged marriages with the families of both spouses getting involved in every aspect of the relationship. It is a sad story the gravity of which can only be truely appreciated by those who live it.

A common underlying problem is the fact that these are almost invariably very sad people; misfits who take revenge of their irreversible grief by oppressing each other.

Regardless of how incompatible they are; there are certain social factors keeping these sad people together. "Namus" is one of them. Although there is not a direct translation of this concept it can be understood like this: when a woman is not ever seen with a man unless she is married to him or a relative of his, she is considered  a "namuslu" woman. It is like good fame. Remaining "namuslu" entails leading a careful life and can be very difficult to maintain depending on where you are or who you are. It is relatively easy to lose it and once it is lost it is impossible to regain it. The consequences of losing one´s namus can be tragic. Getting a divorce is a question mark, being a widow is almost an invitation to losing it and a second marriage is usually equally inconceivable for women of good name.  This fact alone makes a certain group of women in this country highly vulnerable practically forcing them to give all the reins of their lives to their husbands. Families with this general outlook are rampant in the countryside and in the ghettos.

In religious quarters, because the customs encourage male dominance and advise submission to men, this situation is even graver. Nonetheless, we observe a mutual consent and therefore relatively better-working marriages. Both spouses believe they are doing the best thing by letting the man to take the reins. Naturally, there is less brutality in this sort of family.

Luckily not all families are run that way...

Having worked with victims of DV, I thought I´d contribute my 2 cents to the discussion.

What people sometimes wonder is why do the women stay in abusive relationships? What I often find is that women feel that they have no other choice - there´s children involved, they are economically dependent on the husband, do not have resources to move out and be on their own, are afraid of the partner´s retiliation once they leave, and, surprisingly they claim they love their partners (or think they do) and hope for things to change. I would imagine in Turkey the issues to be identical, even compounded by the extra factor of tacit approval of the situation by families or communities. And whereas it is important to raise awareness of the issue (and what the article does and suggests in some ways) it is also important to find ways to empower the women so they have choices. Are there laws in place protecting the victims? Where they can turn to for help? Would they be able to support themselves and their children if needed? Unfortunately, in many cases that is not the case. I don´t think "reciprocating the type of abuse" is the answer here either (as some women suggested in the article). And I don´t think things will change much until it becomes unacceptable to the society (Turkey or otherwise) to allow such abuse to take place and the finger of blame shifts from the victim to the abuser.

 I think this is great insight vineyards. 

I think the terrible economic situation that many Turkish families face is a huge part of the violence as well.  I know many young Turkish men who are very educated, who can not find work.  Most of them have put off marriage, but some of them, because of family pressure are forced to marry.  Of course, there is never an excuse for violence, but I think this is a very common underlying cause.

I found this sad topic interesting to read. I know far too well what an abusive marriage is like, and how difficult it is to leave.  That is hard enough in my country where there is plenty of help, but when you are a woman in that situation it makes you feel as though you are to blame. You therefore stay in that marriage as long as you can and keep your secret.  I was lucky to be strong enough to leave knowing it was not my fault.  I can not imagine how some women feel in male dominated countries especially in poor areas and where there is no help.It makes me so angry that some men can be this way and I know that no man will ever treat me that way again.  I did learn one thing,and that is men that behave like that, need to feel power and by abusing women it seems to give them that power, but proves what cowards they really are.

I am glad to see that there is more awareness, if only to show women in that situation that they should not put up with it and leave.

no denial post so far?That drives Trudy mad.

There is violence against women in Turkey, Trudy, yes, Ja!

To mind comes a lecture at university I had about 2 weeks ago about honour killings and the concepts of namus and þeref.

The lecture was aimed at giving us an insight on how some cultural matters work, and to make us understand them, without having understanding on the concept itself (maybe a Dutch speaker can help me out explaning: begrijpen zonder begrip te hoeven hebben).

First, generally anthropologists divide three concepts:

1. Honour killings (physical ´dirt´ on the woman that cannot be cleaned in any other way)

2. Honour related violence (any kind of violence that is related to the concept of personal honour)

3. Blood feud (an honour killing can result in a blood feud)

Concepts that are important throughout most of the Islamic world, are namus and þeref. They both mean ´honour´, but the concept is more complex than that to explain, as there is no real counterpart in ´our´ language. Things as namus and þeref are more important in the community than anything else. Status is not relevant as long as you dont have your personal honour, personal selfrespect.

The man´s þeref, is closely linked to the namus-ness of his wife, or any other female family member. The man is supposed to protect (and control) the females of a household, his manly honour and personal integrity have to do with that. You have to be a man and respond to what violence has been done towards you, whether it be defending those who are ´depending on your protection´ or protecting your possessions and your flock. It has to do with an intern idea of cultural values that are part of your self-image, extern as in how other people judge you according to it, and something in between: your behavior.

When the namus-ness of a woman is stained, for example because of having an affair, people will talk about this in the community. The þeref of the husband in that case, will be discredited as well: he has not been able in his manlihood to protect his wife (in case of rape) or to control his wife (in case of adultery). It would seem likely to punish the man with whom the woman had (forced or not) sex with. But.. that could result in a blood feud. This is why generally the woman is the victim of an honourkilling, eventhough she is often not seen as the ´criminal´. But it is a social way of getting rid of the stain, without causing a blood feud.

Many people confuse this horrible practice with Islamic law. Honourkillings are not allowed in the framework of Islamic law. Apart from that, it is hard to proove such a thing as adultery really happened anyway: the female has to confess, be pregnant or there have to be 4 male witnesses at that time who did not have the intention to witness such a thing.  But even if proof has been provided, a murder is not allowed within the Islamic law. This is generally a subculture in which local practices play a more important role than religion. It is a concept that is known throughout the whole levant, but one of the reasons that honourkillings occur in TR and not in Marocco, is the difference in community: the maroccan community has the concept of ´bint al-nas´, a daughter of a good family. In case people behave ´unappropriate´, both the girl and the boy are being neglected, thrown out of the family, become outcasts. Nobody wants to have to do something with them and the ´problem´ is solved. In Turkey, where the social cohesion is much stronger (for example more cousin-marriages there than in maghrib), the social control is stronger as well, and so is the gossip and the chance of a mans þeref being stained.. It explains why many honourkillings are extremely brutal, and why the murderes generally do not feel ashamed or wrong: their cultural framework of social cohesion and control in combination with the male þeref, brings them to the belief this is what must be done. Generally younger male family members are chosen because the punishment will be given under youth-law and they are of less economic significance. The ´suicide honourkilling´ where a woman is forced into killing herself, is simply an ´integration´ into the western law-system.

I know the article wasnt related to honourkillings really, it just came to my mind, as I found the lecture interesting. But lets hope these mentality ideas change ´bir an önce´. Because though honourkillings are as ´strange´ to us ´foreigners´ as they are to the educated people of the bigger cities of Turkey, domestic violence is something, that I see within the same framework, and that still occurs at large, whether it be educated or not, whether it be in big cities or villages. It is simple another branch of a tree that I think needs to be burnt.

 I can´t answer this question, but I do know about in Turkey´s attempt to enter EU, they changed an article in the criminal law codes. There used to be a notion of punishment decrease in case of ´extreme provocation´, whereas there was a tougher punishment when it was about murder in the framework of a blood feud. Honourkillings in this view, are seperated from bloodfeud, because bloodfeuds are far more devastating for the community at a whole, and apparantly honourkillings where seen as ´so inside the culture´, that apparantly a woman´s behaviour could be seen as an extreme provocation...

Luckily these codes have been changed! I dont know what protection there is, but there is no longer a law code that prohibits the court from punishing what the murderer really deserves.

Wow! DK, that was some great info! Thanks so much for sharing..!!!

Could you please just explain to me better what "blood feud" is?

 So he is not beating her because she shouts back at him when he does,not because she pushed him back when he even touched her in an argument

And not because she swear back at him when he swear at her

And not because she kicked him out of the door when she knew he has relationship with another woman and said,´go back to where you came from!´

Ýnteresting...OMG !

Maybe you would know it b y the word vendetta..

A blood feud is an ongoing feud between different families or clans, it is a cycle of violence, where the relatives/clan members of a person that has been killed (for example in honour killing but also in any other case), or dishonoured or whatever, look for revenge by killing relatives of the culprit or themselves.

So basically if a member of family A kills a member of family B, a member of family B will seek vengeance by killing a member from family A, where family A again reacts in murdering another familymember of family B. So it is an ongoing fight between two distinct groups (families,clans) with bloodshed that doesnt seem to come to an end.

I think vendetta is also used in English, but can also be used for any kind of continuous fight between 2 families, also if it doesnt include bloodshed.

 What i REALLY want to know,despite of the fact that beating itself is ugly and ..bla ..bla

But are those REALLY their excuses for beating their women ?!

Thank you for the explanation DK, that was very helpful.. I´m gonna read your first post again, it´s so interesting!

 What does it called in Turkish ?

Ýn Egyptian we call it Tar..and its still happening in some country sides

 I think it is ´kan davasý´, but Im not sure about it.

 old-fashioned couples,and arranged marriages are not to blame.

Ýn my grandfather´s time,and even before it,the woman was the queen of the house,and her husband was the king.

He used even to call his wife name and add the title Haným out of respect,and note that Turkish is not our language,so the title haným to us is  like being called Lady..X for example

And at those times,all marriaged were arranged,and the elders get involve in every aspect of it.

So i dont think those are or can be elements of the problem,but the problem is in the personality of those men,and how did they brought up,and how they bringing up the second generation.

So in my opinion,women has great responsibilities in correcting things by giving the right ethics to the coming generation on condition..that

They know,believe,understand the stiuation they are living is NOT the normal and things SHOULD/MUST be not like that !

I definitely think that arranged marrieges are part of the problem. Such marriages only work when the community is actively involved in all people´s personal lives and these people do or don´t do some things for fear of the community´s rejection. In any environment where there is emphasis on personal happiness and personal space that is out of control of the entire community, arranged marriages cannot survive and various ways of acting out the anger and unhappiness will take place.

I agree that there are cases where arranged marriages can be very, very successfull. I know of people who were arranged for each other at the age they didnt even know their own names, and who now have a loving family, and have grown to love each other in the courses of their lives. But the idea of an arranged marriage itself and control of the family upon the marriages, is wrong in itself. That is different topic than those happy arranged marriages of the past. Society has changed, and in that change the chance of such an arranged marriage and/or excessive family involvement is not possible and will consequently result in problems.

 Cat,i live in a community where all marriages were arranged about 50/60 years ago,almost all,and the exception was the otherwise.

So no,i cant say it is part of the problem.

The man who is capable of doing such things to a woman,would do it if he likes her/love her or not

There will be a time when he will say ´Ãm sorry honey,but you drove me to this...forgive me´

But the net result is....he already did.

Not because the marriage was arranged or not,but because the defect is within him!

 Ã agree,and goes without discussion.

But the point..it is NOT an excuse to abuse women..BY NO MEANS!

Ý dont accept ´Ohh but he didnt love her,he was forced to marry her,that is why he abuse her´

A good and honorable man,is a good and honorable man no matter what.

Ý just dont understand,does it satisfy his manly ego that he could beat someone weaker ´physical´ than him ?

Disgusting !

 I never implied that

 Yes,i know

Ý was just making the stress on the main point.in my opinion of course..the problem is within those men and they way they have brought up.

Yes, but I think that his mentality depends on what the society approves also... It is not directly related to arranged marriages, but possibly arranged marriages exist at the same time and place with absolute patriarchy and mentality that gives men all the control over women... I know that a more ´humane´ man would not hurt another person anyway, but the society often influences what kind of people we become..

I wonder how one could explain the presence of domestic violence in countries where that patriarchal system no longer exists, arranged marriages are not an issue, and mentality is supposedly different as well. Maybe there´s something else altogether that accounts for it. I don´t have an answer, just wondering.

I am so impressed by the extremely insightful comments made here by our members (other than tamik, who I wish would have REALLY contributed).

As stated by others, the excuses for spousal abuse are not inherent to Turkey alone.

I heard a story on the radio last weekend about a woman who was abused by her British husband. He would beat her and then….of course….make excuses or beg for apologies.

The disturbing part of the story for me was that she only left him after he cheated on her…..that, she said….is where she drew the line. I was completely appalled!! It is ok for a man to beat you…in front of your children….but if he cheats, that’s it??!!??!!??!!

I do not understand women who stay in this environment. I know the excuses they give, but to me…they are just as bad as the excuses the men give! ESPECIALLY when there are children involved!! They SEE what is happening and that forms the way they view their future relationships. 

 very wise words Canli........... I do not think we can use arranged marriages as an excuse for this type of disgusting behaviour..... I know many men who would never sink so low as to abuse a woman physically or verbally no matter what their situation.... like you said the problem is the mans alone.  For what reason I dont know, perhaps upbringing or perhaps because this kind of behaviour is tolerated in the society around them.

What I would like to know is in turkey how is this behaviour veiwed by other turkish men... do they find this sort of behaviour acceptable, is it something to be proud of?

I am sure there are many men  who find this sort of behaviour as disgusting and shamefull as i do... what we need is an enviroment of zero tolerance....men/woman  who verbally and physicaly abuse their wives/husbands/partners should be made to feel  completely ashamed of their behaviour and understand that what they are doing is wrong and completley unacceptable in society no matter what their financial, marritial, family situation maybe... there is no excuse for this type of behaviour....

and I would hope that any person who is witness to this type of behaviour, maybe in their extended family or friends, will have the courage to speak out ... zero tolerance

Woman is the nigger of the world

Melek asks an interesting question and girleegirl provides supportive examples. Telling you the truth there is not a simple answer to that. What is being discussed here concerns various scientific branches  including psyhology, sociology, biology and psychology. As a result, hundreds of comprehensive treatises have been published with solutions are still nowhere to be found.

The main difficulty is that it is virtually impossible to narrow down this matter. We cannot talk about a certain type of people because people differ dramatically according to the regions they live, races they belong to, cultures they have and cultures they are influenced by. We can go on talking about gender specific issues, social factors shaping the way the identify themselves and others. The mere conclusion of this effort would be some vague evaluations pertaining usually to individual nations. Needless to say, whatever that we can say about nations is destined to be labeled as shallow generalizations.

Because in each nation, there are plenty of social groups with different notions about woman´s place in society. Remember how Canli thinks arranged marriages are not actually a part of the problem. If we asked the same question to say Catwoman, we would probably get quite a different reaction. So the conclusion here is that there is not a universal notion that describes common demands or expectations of women since they are not bothered exactly by the same problems.

There are criminal people in every society. Nonetheless, crime rate is hardly ever so high so as to entitle a whole nation as a criminal one. In some countries  the number of abuses females are subjected to remain in these general boundries, possibly significantly higher  by percentage than crime rate  but still far from being a general attitude. Furthermore, within this marginal group the number of people who also have psychological dysfunctions affecting their social interactions must be far greater compared to general population. Add to that economic factors and the effects of traditions and religion; and you get the picture. While  it may seem irrelevant ,this indirectly answers why females are subjected abuses in highly developed countries. too .Because at the root of the problem, we have psychological disturbances and the relation of that with social identity is very much like the chicken and the egg dilemma. with religion being  a contributing factor.

Women gained suffrage not long ago. Prior to that they were considered legally inequal. It can hardly be said that they won suffrage because they consciously fought for it. That is why masses of women remained unaware and uninterested in political affairs. This is actually the situation with lots of causes. A group of concerned individuals start it without ever reaching a significant following but it serves a starting point whose importance is appreciated long after. What is considered marginal today may become a common belief tomorrow. I believe we are still at the beginning of this.

Presently, the question at hand is why in capitalist countries there are still men abusing women. We have already answered the psychological factors taking part in this. In the previous paragraph we opened a paranthesis where we implied how premature the mechanisms governing woman´s role in society are.  Regardless of how rich or how influential a woman can be, she is still vulnerable in a male dominant society.

Laws may be portraying a certain kind of social setting but with males controlling the set points things do not always work by the book. As a result of this, we see fewer female CEO´s, presidents, PM´s and MP´s. This lays the foundation of the fact that women are dependent on males economically. Humiliated by severe economic conditions,  some women take the first short-cut and sell their bodies. Some  hunt  for a rich husband or they are forced by their relatives to get involved in such marriages. Deprived of a chance to walk out of marriage when things get out of control, many women fall victim to brutality.

In capitalist society, there are winners and losers. Look at the stock exchange, if you won some money there it is because some people lost their money; a shopping mall makes big money by killing hundreds of smaller businesses. In capitalism money draws money and whoever owns it is Mr. Right.  You read his newspaper,  watch his TV  and get exposed to  the policies and idealogies advocated by him.

Being underearned is a legal form of slavery. You are guaranteed to be dissatisfied and full of anger in a world where certain people drive in their limos and enjoy life like there is no tomorrow. In this setting, as said by John Lennon, "Woman is the nigger of the world". It all boils down to economic independence.

 But vineyards,do they really abuse women for those reasons ?

Not because she shouted at him,yieled at his mother,pushed him...etc

Ý mean..really because of cold and salty food ?

Maybe the question seems strange,by all ways no excuse is accepted,but the way i think.

Ýf he abuse her for those minor things....then what sort of life those women have ?!!

How the women be looked at,at the society

Her role,position.

A woman is not just a wife,she is a sister,a daughter and a mother...

 Maybe if you read my previous posts,you may understand what i meant.

Ýts not a matter of picking up a fight here,read what i said first,then if it wasnt clear,i will clarify it...but i dont think you have read it!

I´m not sure Canli, is those would be the actual reasons why they abuse the women. Maybe those are only "triggers" and, like someone said earlier, excuses. There´s a concept in psychology called "displacement" where a person can´t express their (usually aggressive) feelings towards somebody and re-directs those feelings/behaviors towards a "safer" object. So if, let´s say a man, is pissed off with his boss, he can´t hit his boss, but he "can" hit his wife. Maybe that´s a part of it - and some of the socio-economic factors mentioned earlier by others would possibly account for it. It does seem outrageous that salty food would be a reason for anyone to hit anybody else, but I do think that the reason lies deeper than that.

I agree. It is difficult to generalize the actions of a minority (or even a majority) of a population to the whole nation and attribute a behavior to one group vs. another. Research consistently shows that within-group diversity is greater than between-group diversity. As human beings in general, we´re more alike than different and maybe some behaviors are better understood as human as opposed to cultural phenomena. As a society however, we need to take responsibility for what we do with that and what actions we take to curb/eliminate that behavior.

 beautifully stated, in some societies the actions were taken and still are being carried out. however in some socities the primitive traditions backed up by primitve thinking are in power, a very little actions taken (those activists who are involved in human rights movements are often prevented from their works and some of them are even killed).

canli, if i say that you dont lie then i become a liar.

i think i personally was insulted and offended thousand times, but i dont cry. i can cope with criticism and negative attitude of people. i can cope with other people´s opinions.

 you are repeating this since i appeared on this site

Femmeous, Canli is not a liar, all she said with wise and clear words is so true.

You need to know the situations in our societies before saying someone is a liar.

Femmeous read this please:

9. Avoid personal disputes and arguments. Personal correspondence postings should be kept at a minimum. Personal attacks or insults directed towards other users will not be tolerated. Basically if you don´t have anything nice to say then just don´t say it all. If somebody posts an insulting comment do not reply to it. It will only result in starting a flame-war. Instead, send a Private Message to one of the forum moderators and they will take care of it.

thanks for reading my post

Yes, it ÝS about Turkey and published in a Turkish newspaper.

I´m asking why don´t you or others find in Turkish newpapers good things to say about Turkey and Turks, why always looking for such kind of behaviours (that you can find in any country) and starting a debat about it.

 queent

canli perfectly knows what i mean.

truth doesnt mean wise, beautiful and clear words, truth is often painful. thats why canli often suffers when she sees my posts.

and basically, queent, if you dont have anything to say, then just dont say anything (according to the rules) 

I had what to say and I said it.

Thanks for replying me femmeous

 its not true. trudy often wrote nice things about turkey and even promotes it.

but its so difficult to praise a country where there are honor killings are still not eliminated.

i would myself stand for turkey if not those horrible traditions and mentality.

when?

honor killings are a tradition of Kurds and it`s impossible to deal with it as far as Kurds are the citizens of Turkey

 oh thank you queent for "the culture exchange"

 not true, turks too dirt their hands in honor killings. its not a tradition of kurds only. it is practised in every islamic country and community (including indonesia, malasia etc etc, note one things, those far east countries didnt have honor killings before islamization).

at least 90 percent of the honor killings in Turkey are carried out by the Kurds in the south east or those who have migrated to the west. I don`t care about what`s going on in malaisa, and yes, honnor killings are a Kurdish tradition in Turkey, and it`s dealing with the mafiatic asiret system of Kurds which don`t exist in the Turkish culture.

I have modified all my posts where I used the word LIE.

so that canli would not get insulted.

there always be a mentality clash between me and her (and alike people).

It´s true women get abused everywhere. I wonder what Turkish government is doing about that? In poland, the situation of abused women improved once it stopped being a subject nobody talked about. Of course, it´s not perfect yet, but the police are better trained how to deal with such cases and women is granted a lot of rights if she reports being abused. A few years ago we had this campaign with billboards like that below all around Poland:

The poster says "Because soup was too salty" and "Stop domestic violence"

 i dont think it happens to polish families (at least not many), its mainly ukranian and russian tradition. its them who make such statistics.

 awwww tami here i caught you in your first denial

"at least 90 percent of the honor killings in Turkey are carried out by the Kurds in the south east or those who have migrated to the west. I don`t care about what`s going on in malaisa, and yes, honnor killings are a Kurdish tradition in Turkey, and it`s dealing with the mafiatic asiret system of Kurds which don`t exist in the Turkish culture."

did I deny that there is violence against women in Turkey? yes there are both domestic violence and honor killings and honor killings are exclusively unique to the Kurds in Turkey. I see no denial here!

guess why the Azeris who are also muslims dont have honor killings in their country. it`s because they are Turks and they don`t have any Kurds there.

 One family it happens to is one too many.

 of course, you did you put all the blame on kurds.

and guess what? the honor killings are done in uzbekistan and turkmenistan. they are turks too.

as for azeris, im not quite sure, but i know they have more strict traditions in that region of caucasians.

Look at the way the thread has become...

 this is too difficult to understand. maybe you should use more simple language, you know i have a thin brain, im not as wise as some members here.

just like you put all the blame on muslims? who am I supposed to blame if this thing is done only by a certain group of people? I never denied the fact that this is an issue of Turkey though not of the Turks.

Femmeous seriously, should we collect money among members to spend on your psychological treatment? It would be nice if you realized this point yourself and start seeing a shrink for the treatment of your various complexes. Don´t take my word for it. Arrange the first visit, and ask the psychiatrist himself. You may thank me in the end.

I love honest people.

Muslims, Jews, Kurds and Turks have it. It is written in their holy books. It only applies to those who belive in these belief systems. People accept these rules since childhood. Kurds are a more self-centered people isolated from the effects of Europanization. It has nothing to do with races. It is mostly a cultural problem claiming many lives every year.

my parents are from a remote village in the middle of anatolia. there isn`t even a road connecting them to a town or city, but I have never heard of such things happening there. This has nothing to do with the so called "westernization". Kurds are obliged to carry out honor killings because of their fascistic system of "asiret" which doestn`t exist among any ethnicities in anatolia other than the Kurds.

I don´t know ANY place where patriarchal system no longer exists.

Even if this was the case, we should refrain from targeting or hurting peaceful Kurds. They are the citizens of this country and whatever problem they have it is our problem too. Neither Turks nor Kurds will gain anything from pointing their fingers at each other about all their internal problems.

This problem is being used by certain quarters who would like to weaken our country. Nobody is paying any attention to the Basks in Spain or to Lapps in Finland because there is little political interest to be gained by agitating these groups in these countries. The heavy artillery and advanced weapons and fighting systems owned by separatist groups prove that these people are immensely supported by certain interest groups. The same groups spread hatred stories among Turks, their fuel is hatred. As long as we continue to hate each other, nothing will change.

We are not talking about a problem between a few people here. We are talking about a problem between tens of millions of people. I lost my uncle-in-law who was a very decent and healthy man in a clash. I know how it hurts. Even he never pointed his finger at Kurds although he was a commander in active service.

+100000000000000000000000000000

And what I said was that in environments where there are arranged marriages, there are different values then ´individual happiness´, the community is more important then the individuals, and men are always the authority... so I think that although arranged marriages are not probably the direct cause, but the culture behind arranged marriages seems to be the same culture that supports that kind of behavior... That´s only my ´thoughts´ though...

That is NOT what she meant!

I was referring to Western societies where the system is de jure if not de facto egalitarian. I do see your point though and all too often what it´s supposed to be like is not what it is in reality.

Where?? 

Did you look anywhere to start with?

A few comments to several posts:

In the Netherlands there is too much domestic violence as well, it´s also in the newspapers. Right now there is an advertisement campaign against it with posters like this:

It says ´Bart hits his wife´ - Report domestic violence. More to know? Call 010-....

But why should I post about that on a forum about Turkey? If anyone is very interested I can, but it´s all in Dutch.

*******

I don´t only post negative things about Turkey (Femme said it before) and Tami should know. I´ve been to Turkey several times in almost every area and I posted stories, opinions ans (newspaper) articles about lovely things I saw and great people I´ve met. But.... if a well known newspaper as Zaman or Hurriyet has articles about negative aspects on their front page, why on earth should I deny it and praise the country into heaven? I don´t do that for any country, including my own. I can understand that one is proud of his/her country but I can not understand that one is covering up evil things with ´reasons´ as ´it is a backward part of my country´ or ´we do that for centuries´. If it is a not-so developed part of your country and you too think things must change, act!! I think changes inside a country must come from inside, not from ´countries with a missionary or colonial mission´. And to be honest, in my view I see way to many smoothening posts - as (again) Femme said before. However, it will never be a reason for me not to say what I think/feel or to post about negative things.  

Maybe my country is one you mean? And yes, it still exists here. Why? Because exactly what you said elsewhere: it´s not about the salty soup, the yelling e.g. It´s about the lack of controlling own emotions, not able to deal with disappointments etc. So, angry with their boss? That´s an ´excuse´ to hit their wife/daughter, according to these men....

 I understand exactly the point you are making ........ thats why I was asking the question... do men/woman  find this type of behaviour acceptable in turkey ?  and im not just asking about arranged marriages, however my thoughts are

not all people who drink are alchoholics, and not all people who take drugs become drug addicts....... its not the drug is the user........ not everyone in an unhappy marriage resorts to physical or domestic violence.

doesnt it take a certain personality to physically and verbally abuse a partner... or is this sort of behaviour tolerated, or even encouraged in certain communities therefore it has become acceptable

I know it happens in my country, but it is certainly not seen as an acceptable behaviour.

I would like to think, as i said earlier, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour disgusting and shameful, and is witness to it, are willing to speak their  minds ....... no matter what your background it doesnt give anyone the right to abuse another person,  maybe by changing the views of society we can put a stop to this behaviour....

 I use to work with a woman who was in an abusive marrage for many years and she said that he always threatened that is she ever left he would kill her and their son. Within the marrage he had always carring out any threats he made, so she was so scared and also got so down trodden that all her  confidence had gone. Then after a very violent beating because his tea was cold and the reason his tea was cold was he had stayed in the pub instead of going home at the appointed time. She deceided that if she stopped she was going to be killed anyway, so finally left. And of course because of the coward he was. he never came looking for her. She is now in a very happy marrage. 

one of the holy books you mentionned is Quran, I never saw a verse in it asking to abuse women.

but I saw verses which order to be merciful with them, "the best of you are for their wives"

i love this post

any cash is welcome

 jews?   i dont think so. i havent heard any story of an honor killing done among jews.

 dont be so sure, i can come with those verses

 It happens in any nationality.

 Sura 4, verse 34(38) - the verse might differ from translation.

Domestic abuse is an international problem.

Why does it happen? Men beat women because they can. It´s really that simple.

Until it is considered dishonerable, it will go on.

In the meantime, here´s a place to find help.

International Directory of Domestic Violence Agencies

 absolutely true. but in many many countries not things are not just done, but actually wife beating is even supported. if you dont beat your wife you are not man enough.

Sura An-Nisa is often misunderstood. If anyone has to turn to a book to find an excuse to beat their wife they are probably going to hell anyway Although I think a man with violent tendencies is going to beat his wife (or others) regardless.

There should definitely be more severe punishments for domestic violence. Usually they don´t get any jail time whatsoever.

Domestic abuse is an international problem, however honour killings aren´t.  Do your remmber the Bobbitt story..maybe if more woman were like Lorena these men would think twice.  I also think some men tend to follow in what they see and learn..what I mean is maybe their father was abusive to their mother..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt

 Not another person who is ordered to take meds....I can save you some money femme if you need someone to talk to...

 i think your cash is more welcome than your talk

 I´m sure it is....

Here´s a link to a very informative and comprehensive report about DV:

http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/digest6e.pdf

Page 6 has some statistics from a selection of countries. It does illustrate how widespread and universal the problem is.

What I´m wondering is in any society where DV is so prevelent what is the difference between the men who abuse and those who don´t. Maybe looking at those factors would help in addressing the issue. It could be educational level, economic, religious, upbringing, history of being abused themselves, evil media, take your pick. At some point there has to be a shif in thinking or attitude and it would be interesting to explore that as well.

 No, I certainly haven´t either.  From what I understand they idolize their wives..

what`s the correct interpretation if it`s misunderstood? and how come we misunderstand it when it explicitely says beat your wife?

these excerpts are from bible;

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn´t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father´s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 if two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl´s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

 this report is a joke, seriously.

i saw the page 6 and had a nice laugh

How childish, Tamikidakika. Did ever any Christian (or otherwise Western) person say that there are no horrible things in the Bible? I don´t think so. It´s not denied. You, on the contrary, always deny it implicit by pointing out at similar text in the Bible/Western society when someone dares to critisize Koran/Muslim society. Not the best discussing technique. (´Mammy, he did it toooooo!´ ) 

 I can add that in the Netherlands it is 33%.

tami

do jews do honor killings? deutoronomy is the law given to successors of moses. moses lived about 3,500 years ago. and i didnt hear any jew stoning any non-virgin.

oh, tami tami, i didnt know you read bible

 and how on earth this report can be reliable if most women in middle east and other eastern countries actually dont report DV?

come with those verses and also with their explanations

I don´t need the explanations for I´m an Arab, but for whose don´t understand

waiting...

maybe you should reread my post. I said it`s true that kuran promotes violence against women. how could I make my my point more clear? what Im saying is all the religions support domestic violence and consider women inferior.

and as for your first question, yes there are millions of brainwashed people who think christianity is a religion of peace and bible promotes equality just like there are millions of brainwashed muslims who think the same about kuran.

 I already gave one, a few pages back.

Of course it´s not a true representation of the numbers due to underreporting and other difficulties in collecting data. It does illustrate, in my opinion, the prevelance of the problem, but in no way the numbers are exact. You can only imagine how much more serious the problem is if you adjust for that. I have difficulty understanding what you find funny about the report at all, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Biblical law, commonly called Mosaic Law or Divine Law, refers to the statements or principles of law and ethics contained in the Pentateuch or Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which is incorporated into the Christian Bible, where it is called the Old Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_law_in_Christianity

if you haven`t heard any Jew stoning a virgin, google it.

al nisa: 4:34

 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

 What would ´we´ do without Wiki?

Personal question Tamikidakika: Did you ever read (a part of) the Bible?

no, have you read kuran?

  oh tami tami i know all these

so what`s your point?

Parts yes. I must admit I quitted because I don´t find it nice to read. Not solely because of the content (though many times I was shocked) but because (to me) it is just one big list of do´s and don´ts, not a ´story´ (which the Bible is). BTW I am not religious.

see I don`t read any religios text for the same reason. it`s a waste of time, and I don`t think one must read them to get their essence. besides, google and wikipedia are pretty good.

 my point is that i know all that stuff. i dont have any other point.

 then why do you quote the verses out of those books you dont read and dont know?

how come you quote about things you dont care? or you suddenly care when theres a debate?

all these books are online, you don`t need to read the whole book to understand that it says "kill the girl if she is not virgin". reading them from the beginning to the end is as meaningless as reading encyclopedia unless you believe in them.

good, I would like to stop with the word "scourge", this word means using a scourge to torture someone, it means also punishing someone physically so hard.

But did the verse really said this word, no no no, the word is "beat them" and this beating isn´t the hard one, it musn´t be done by a scourge or any other tool that can hurt, also this beating must not let traces, so this beating is just to warn and not to torture the woman.

And as you see clearly is the reason of beating is not just a too salty food or not bearing male children .......

Another word to say, the man whom can show his physical power against a creature less powerful, if this creature is a woman, a child or even an animal is just a deficiency in his personality and even his manhood (woman isn´t innocent if she could beat a child also "same principle = powerful one showing hard muscles to weak one).

It´s not important what explanation you give or what you think of words that are used. Fact is: it IS in the Koran, which you denied previously.

When you decide on who the smartest guy here is drop me a line. I hate seeing threads started with good intentions being hijacked.

 I can´t hijack my own topic?

 this is a pure form of hijacking.

i think theresnt anyone smarter than you.

If you want to contribute you should be relevant first of all. I am writing this because you are turning into a real trouble-maker.

Do you want to learn the wisest guy? Then why don´t you start a thread and bring this question up. I see that the same people are waiting for jumping into the tug-of-war pulling hard on their side of the rope without ever minding what is actually being discussed. If you ask me this could be described as an act of hijacking with you being the usual perpetrator.

Firstly i didn´t deny it previously, I still say I never saw a verse asking men to beat women in the meaning mentionned in your first post.

Secondly it is not my thinking about the verse, we have books called Tafseer of Quran to explain for whom can´t understand it well, and you can try to check the real meaning of the word used in the verse.

Seriously Queent. You cannot be serious with what you just said: "you misunderstood, allah didnt say ´torture them till they die´, he said ´please hurt them carefully, so that you can emotionally kill them´. "

I personally find a book that is supposed to guide people through their lives, useless if it isnt clear what is meant in one read. There is so much misunderstanding about what is meant between the believers itself (not to mention the unbelievers), I refuse to believe that an all-knowing great power has written such an incomprehensible work.

I didn´t say this: "you misunderstood, allah didnt say ´torture them till they die´, he said ´please hurt them carefully, so that you can emotionally kill them" deli, I said direct words no need to turn them into other words

It is unclear for whom doesn´t know Arabic, for me I didn´t misunderstood the verse or any other verse from Quran, it is written in my native language.

the so much misunderstanding between the believers is just that some believers like to take what suit them and let what does not, you should know this too.

 Queent my dear, we have been over this here so many times. It seems to come up every two months at least. The same acusations are made by the same people over and over. I guess we just have to keep repeating it.

I think the dispute comes over the translation of the word daraba.

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word   

The problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne" which we used to translate as "beat them". The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.   

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273 
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4 
To beat: 8:50; 47:27 
To set up: 43:58; 57:13 
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11 
To take away, to ignore: 43:5 
To condemn: 2:61 
To seal, to draw over: 18:11 
To cover: 24:31 
To explain: 13:17 

Mohammed sawas was the living Koran. How he treated his wives set the example. It is unfortunate not enough follow his sunnat in that respect.

thanks dear Alameda

 I think that counts for all things that are close to people Because ofcourse for religious people religion is very important, but for non-believers, I can personally say it is equally important, only from the other side.

And I read about the word daraba yes, Ive indeed read that it can also mean ´to send away´. But I find it rather confusing still.

I think anyone who is a devout Muslim (or has common sense ) knows that domestic violence is haram in Islam, both according to the sunnah and all other reliable material. They are allowed to use the strength of a siwak and there are very specific rules for it. A Muslim woman has every right to divorce her husband if he has problems with violence and refuse to resolve them.

It´s an insult to women who suffer in this type of relationship to try to justify it in any way. There is simply no excuse for wife beating and it´s sick that some cultures put the blame on the woman

 Maybe I was wrong to ´twist´ your words, but the way you defended that surah really looked like that Anyway my apologies for twisting your words. I didnt mean to put them in your mouth, I meant to say that that is what I understand from it.

I don´t think having Arabic as your native language is enough to perfectly understand though. There is enough confusion even within the language itself, and there are also different lawschools in Islam that prescribe different rules as an explanation to the book. It doesnt make it more clear.

Yes you are right, people take from it what suits them sadly. But what if Allah really meant ´beat your wife´? Then you are the one who is taking what suits you.. (ofcourse you made the right choice by not beating ) and then you did misunderstand. But well, I guess this is part of having faith in the first place.. to believe what you believe is the right thing to believe.

I deleted some posts because of personal argument and attacks (Forum rule #9). Let´s discuss the topic, not individuals. 

 I´m amazed it took so long for an admin to step in. And people were accusing me of being snarky.

 oooh, poor you, another victim, why didnt admin delete GG´s posts? they protected canli, but they forgot about you?     thats unfair now, isnt it?

Well done Admin for deletion. Some members on this thread ( and you know who you are) seem to be very intelligent people but insist on squabbling like children.

The world will never be at peace as long as some people behave like that. Why can´t people just agree to differ and be civil to each other. Lets get back to a heart rending debate.

Quoting femmeous

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN: JORDAN, 20% APPROVE TO BE BEATEN

(ANSAmed) - AMMAN, NOVEMBER 25 - Around 20 percent of Jordanian women approve being beaten by husbands to discipline them, according to a survey conducted by the department of statistics that was published today.

...

fantastic mentality!

Seems shocking, doesn´t it? Why would someone approve of being beaten? Well, we need to turn to psychology a bit before we judge those women. It is not uncommon for a victim of any violence to identify with the perpetrator. When you are in an abusive relationship your self-esteem begins to deteriorate rapidly. If you´re told or shown by the abuser´s actions (somebody you perceive to have authority over you) that you´re worthless over and over again, you soon start to believe it. For some women, the erosion of self-esteem is so great that they actually begin to believe they deserve the abuse and that they brought it on themselves. If there´s nobody to tell them otherwise they will live by that belief.

It is an unfortunate fact that the oppressed often learn to believe the opressor. We have seen it over and over again.

How did aparthed continue? How did slavery and Jim Crow continue for so long? I think another term for this type of Stockholm syndrome.

I think you made a good point previously and I commented on it drawing on my personal knowledge and experience. You have a right to disagree with me and express it, although I do think we agree more than you´d allow it to admit. I do see, however, that you are incapable of having a civil discussion/debate/exchange of ideas without it turning to be about you. You surely should start realizing that your style of communication is hurting you as some people (including myself) have difficulty taking you seriously despite some good points that you do try to make. I´ll have to join vineyards in his recommendation for you to seek professional help. Until then, I do not intend wasting any more of my precious time either reading or responding to your posts.

I wondered if anyone here was aware of a campaign by the TUC (Trade Unions Congress) in the UK and joining unions around the world to eradicate violence against women?  The TUC marked the International Day of Eradication of Violence Against Women on Tuesday by joining the White Ribbon campaign.

The Unions belive that they play a key role in tackling violence against women, as they see the consequences on a daily basis, in the work place, as it becomes a refuge for the abused woman.  I don´t think people realise that it is a worldwide problem, and seeps into all levels of society.

But I believe that campaigns like this will go some way to raising awareness.  There is a link to the White Ribbon campaing, but it was not workng when I tried to access it earlier.

Here is the link:

http://www.tuc.org.uk/equality/tuc-15661-f0.cfm 

 I had not heard of it, thanks Libralady.

I may be cynical but I do wonder what exactly these "awareness" campaigns actually achieve.  We have nice pink ribbons for breast cancer awareness, red ones for AIDS awareness and now white ones for this.

I do wonder if the purpose is to make people feel better about themselves and to feel that wearing such a thing says something about them.  It appeals to people´s vanity.  Great for armchair activists.....

I haven´t heard about that one, but I´ve read about the changes in laws about forced marriages that were discussed earlier. Here´s that link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7747267.stm

It´s UK now, but hopefully, other countries will follow. It´s a big (and yet still too small) step in the right direction.

It is not all about wearing ribbons, I never bother with them, I just try and do something constructive, if it is only helping one woman escape an abusive life.

 What are you doing that is constructive then?

 I knew you would ask something like that!   I actually physically helped a friend escape her abusive relationship from an alcoholic partner.  That is all I am going to say.

 i think i will leave this without a comment.

 How can anyone take you seriously....you call out femme then make rude comments back to her.  If you don´t want to share in a debate with her fine....but it doesn´t do anything for your character to be insulting.  Actually, femme´s communication style might not be in touch with your´s, however believe it or not.......she makes alot of sense...

 +1000000 Teas

The irony is that the one person who never complains about personal insults is Femme.  At least she is not a hypocrite

I see this whole thread (with a few exceptions) is another great exercise in TC diplomacy!  Yes there is abuse all over the world, just as there has been male dominance all over the world, since time began.

The difference is, some countries attack the problem as far as is physically possible.  They provide shelters for abused women and children to escape to, they provide therapy to the abusers and their victims, they make domestic violence illegal and culturally unacceptable.

You may take offence at Femme´s comments, but the fact is it is COMPLETELY RIGHT to criticise a culture or country that ignores domestic violence, or even encourages it. 

You may throw back as many cases as you like from my country, but until you stop culturally supporting this, you have NO ARGUMENT.

End of story.

Entirely your prerogative but I think femme was quite right with this comment - these countries don´t welcome interference from outsiders

(If this comment seems a bit late it´s because I was having pc trouble and kept losing  connection )

Maybe Femme has a point, but she is very personal and insulting while making them.

I agree with this...

Maybe femme has a point, but she does not stray from attacking personally many people in a vile way!

Maybe all those people who feel so easily attacked should read WHAT Femme says, instead of only HOW she does it.

Until people are aware of an issue, there is little that can be done. When others see the symbol of a cause, they feel more encouraged to discuss the problem, thus problems have more possibility of being resolved. Also, ribbons and other symbols are not free, people contribute to the "cause" thus giving funds for operations to resolve the problem.

 How will these funds raised resolve the problem of the worldwide abuse of women Alameda?

My other comment would be that until people such as yourself stop sweeping issues under the carpet for fear of offending, you may as well buy a million ribbons or one, the effect is the same...

I must say, I´m amazed at how Femme´s English has improved, however, her delivery could use  improvement. How one responds is a part of What they have to say. It is difficult to separate from the message, because it´s part of it.

We have many members who have difficulty in expressing themselves in English. They sometimes use the wrong words and the way they are put together is sometimes abrupt. There are times when calling people names ceases to be just a verbal mistake and goes into the insult category. This subject is one that illicits passions.

If we want to resolve the issue, communication that is informative and inspires collective action is needed. Communication that is repellant is counterproductive.

Everyone in this conversation has brought up valid points well worth consideration, none of them should be dismissed. We do want to help abused women, don´t we?  Perhaps, as a collective we can find some common cause.

No, not necessarily. That same thing applies to everybody, and our forum rules are clear "NO personal attacks"!

Time for me to leave this topic I think...... how lovely of you to compliment Femmous on her improved English though

Your advice about posts is unceasing.  I wish we had voted you to be admin now

Excuse me? You have no idea of just what action I have and do take, and I see no need to recount my anti abuse activities here. I don´t see where I have swept the issues under the "carpet". Do you have an example?

As for how funds are used.....hmmm....to provide food and shelter, legal fees. I do think before people contribute some research on how the funds are used is a good idea. There are organizations who are not very effective.

As for offending, some consider it agitation. Why agitate a hornets nest? Maybe there are better ways to deal with it....like considering all the issues and formulating an effective strategy?

 My answer to you Alameda, (and all people who try to say that the situation is universal) was posted earlier.

In that there is a problem. Until you/we realize it is a universal problem, understanding the underlying cause, and finding a solution is not probable.

The denial it exists in all countries is another way of sweeping the issue under the carpet. We are all members of the human race, common causes exist for all of us.

It is a universal problem, but in degrees. At least it is considered a crime in some countries (including my own).  We happily publish "figures" for such things and do not treat it as normal.  The countries who have the largest problem with this have no such statistics because ALL women live in fear.

Alameda, you can have the final word.  Frankly I am reminded of a quotation by William McAdoo (another bed Amerikan):-

"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument"

A good example:

County A reports 100 murders a year.

Country B reports no murders (but this is because it is culturally acceptable to murder, and it is considered quite normal).

It makes a "universal problem" quite subjective eh?

The Purple Roof Association is the Turkish equivalent of the European instutitutions working to prevent abuses and violence women are subjected to. They provide shelter and finances to abused women. They are the most famous of such institutions and have been active for quite a long time.

http://www.morcati.org.tr/

 I agree Turkey has done a lot (particularly in recent years) to prevent abuse.  I would make it clear that my comments were not about Turkey

We know it exists in many countries.

Did you look at this?

 International Directory of Domestic Violence Agencies

Are only women Abused on this planet?

What about Children, Animals, very old People (Men and Women), weak men (also), even plants???

You have a valid point Queent. This thread started regarding Abuse of women in Turkey, then it spread to talking about abuse Islamic countries. Talking about International Abuse of Women caused an uproar from some quarters.

I agree with you, any abuse is unacceptable for any creature. Abuse of resources is also criminal in my mind.

There has been growing awarness of Elder Abuse recently, it´s a big problem. Maybe we should have a thread just called Abusive Behaviour.

I think the underlying cause is the same. It has been shown that a child who abuses defensless animals grows up to larger prey.

What causes people to become abusive? Might makes right?

I wanted to mention "the crime in the nest", a good example of the abusive behaviour.

OMG you won´t see my point!!!

There is really no need to keep posting your links!!!

 Did anyone say they were the only ones abused?  However as this is the topic, perhaps it would be good to stick to it?

Plants hehehehe!

Yes plants

News Flash: The recently opened Shelter For Abused Plants (SFAP) has capacity problems. Only in the last three days more than hundred plants sought help and a safe place to stay. They were threatened to be left without water, no regular change of soil and the worst: cutting of their flowers! Because most of the plants were of male gender, there is also a problem in keeping the genders apart. Two floors of the shelter, initially meant for female plants, are now used for males. More to come....

Now now girls-you´re going to get silly aren´t you!  Think of those poor abused plants who don´t deserve to have the p**s taken out of them.

(just visiting btw-back off to translation forum where I belong)

feel sad for them really

Please don´t make me sad with More the come

 I own up to being a house plant abuser  I have the grand number of 3 house plants, that really should not be alive....... I always forget to water them, and I never talk to them, they are limp and suffering from plantession.  I am not sure if they are male or female but I think they are suffering from gender recognition, they are certainly suffering from plantdismorphia............ Yes I am ashamed of myself.......... is there anywhere I can go for therapy?

Queent - just joking

I´ll be straight over with my watering can,you bad girl!

Plants can be a good remedy for you I guess

 You are not sweeping this hot issue under the (Turkish) carpet, are you?

we were with Abused Women

Causes

to Abusive behaviour

Now we are in Carpets Carpets  Car Pets

I don´t understand sorry

 Hey, carpets have feelings too! (And you were the one who started talking about plants!)

Yes I´am the one who started talking about plants as they are living beings

and you said under Car Pets, hurting Car Pets by sweeping some parasites under them

Ahhh I feel sad for Car Pets too

 Car Pets, is that an endangered Turkish species?

Isn´t it obvious, she is asking for clarification on the term "sweeping it under the carpet"? She is doing an amazing job in writing a language that is not native to her. Making fun of another is also an abusive behaviour......it hurts peoples feelings....you know?

I think Queent is advocating respect for all. Does anyone have a problem with that? Don´t we have a global problem because of lack of respect for resources? Isn´t it all related, abuse of power?

Little things like Global Warming, Plastics in the Pacific....  to name a few.

Anyway, it´s Thanksgiving here and I´m going to have a nice dinner with some thankful people...have a nice day....

....and Trudy and AEnigma, the links aren´t for you. They are for other people who may care to do more research. You don´t have to click on them.

it is the same word as Carpets I just put a space in the word to decrease the abusive behaviour

It´s not my native language as well. And making fun of someone about that? Don´t make me start summing up yours (to me).

mentally ill people too..

 It is technically called "thread dismorphia"!  At least everyone is being joky and light hearted

I think  you  misunderstood here Alameda!  QueenT´s English is obviously very good - she was makin a little joke with the word ´carpets = ´car pets´ - at least that´s how I read it!

i lost it. just like many topics, i lost it.

i lost it against canli - my posts got deleted. and there are as many DV in the middle east as in the free world.

i lost it against queent - theres particularly only one religion that cannot be criticised. theres a suggestion to pay more attention to animals and plants. a very westernised arab.

i lost it against alameda - her english is better.

i lost it against vineyards - he wants me to shut up and go to a hospital.

i lost it against civilised cultured westerners - they are angels.

i lost it against catwoman - ...

there are no problems - women are free and happy, and they wish to be abused (they are psychos), and leave them alone, it is their tradition/culture/religion.

such topics are a pain and a stain. its so difficult to admit them and talk about openly. thats why we have to always try to change a subject. if we talk more about femme then we will succeed. lets all focus on femme and make a scapegoat out of her again and again.

lets talk about her manners, lets talk about her english lets talk about her form of expressing so that others wont notice what she shouts about.

you guys succeeded. my congrats.

 Thread dysmorphia?? An abnormality in the shape or size of threads??? 

 Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

 Sorry we have moved on to plant abuse, and about to discuss the finer details of insect abuse.....................  

So we all know about the abuse of women across the world, so what are we doing about it?  I have not noticed any post about what you are doing or anyone else for that matter, except the small story I have about helping an abused friend.  We can talk all you like, and read your agressive posts, but you do not come up with a solution, so lets hear what you have done.  What would you propose is done about it?  How would you tackle the governments?  Lets put a plan together and take action. 

 Then you missed Femme´s post in which she said that she will interfere when she hears something that might sound abusive - even when it brings her into trouble.

Let me correct please I´m not a a very westernized Arab, I´m a very easternized European.

I think the reason some people go on about the links you always include in your posts is that they feel that if people want to research something then they can use google or some other search engine.  The links you give are telling people where to look - to one particular source - and might not actually be the best link for what they want to know. Of course, as you say, no-one has to click on them.

As far as posting a link to the meaning of a word, I can only assume you are doing this for those who don´t have English as their first language to help their vocabulary, otherwise it would seem very patronising.

You are quite right LIR. I try to find links that offer other resources and clarify some linguistic issues.

 I think both are nearly equally important. There is no use in making good points if you turn people away from wanting to listen to them. I am not easily offended and I dont mind people saying stuff about me, but especially in cases like this where you KNOW that they send you away anyway, you are not helping anyone by making comments that are supposed to change a mentality, if you dont take in account the current state of that mentality. If you want to help people (by a mentality change), then you should approach them in a way that fits them. Even if you think people should be able to deal with the raw words just as they are. I may not have a problem with that way of speech, but Im not the one who needs to be told those.

"I don´t need the explanations for I´m an Arab, but for whose don´t understand"

To be honest I don´t see the problem in posting links. You can click on them or not. I generally don´t have a look at them, unless I find the topic interesting and want to have a quick look at it. But I don´t think it is bothering to read, the only thing is that the colour of the letters becomes blue.

I don´t find it that patronizing either, because I don´t feel like I need to be lectured nor do I feel that is the aim of the links Alameda or anyone for that matter posts.

 Actually if you would read what some other people have been saying, you would find that they agree on a lot you say (at least I do!) only in a different way (at least I do!).

I am not bothered by your way of speech that much. You can also call me a crying baby, liar or ´diplomatic´ admin as much as you please. I can´t be bothered, you have a different way of speaking than I do (at least online ). But you should understand that not all people think that way, and if your first aim is to make people understand what you are saying, the more you shout, the less they will understand your point. Some people just work differently.

And I don´t think you lost (and Im sure you don´t think either ). I notice what you shout about and I couldn´t agree more, though you tend to generalize quite much, but I think the baseline of what you say is very true.

 beautifully put and easy to take, ready on a tray, just take it. of course you are right.

but anyway, i think theres no point of talking to people like alameda or libra. they will never get it. no matter what you say, in what form you say. its just not their pain, not their skin burnt.

for them more important is how you put it, what the title is, etc etc, they never talk on the subject itself, they join to change the sucbject - to draw the attention from the essense, to steal your attention to the unnecessary garbage like the word definition, links, or the same faults in the west and globalize it to the international level - a pure brain laundry.

and some of you with some reasonable attitude let yourlseves caught in a game they play.

esp. alameda is so much manipulative, she can make a soup out of your brain right under your own nose.

lets not talk about femme, lets talk about the pain/problem femme points out.

yes very easternized till I consider myself as a real Arab Proud to be an Arab and know this wonderful language as my native

 so you dont know who you are? if you become an arab, then be an arab and keep to it. and dont play your games here: be an european when it fits, or be an arab when it fits again.

why did you lie then in the previous post that you were an arab? do you have to use taqyya everytime?

Now that we are talking about women and abuses they are subjected to; we should also talk about a scandal which is still so high on Turkey´s agenda. The scandal has developed around Uzmez who is a columnist with Vakit a radical Islamist newspaper. Contrary what people may naturally expect from the proponents of Islam, this writer turned out to be a child abuser who abused a 14 year old girl as a result of a police raid into the house where he commited the criminal activity. He and the mother of the girl who was charged with selling her daughter to men were taken in custody and the child was sent to an orphanage for protection. So far so good; (so bad actually) in the end, we know that there are perverts amongs us who are capable of such act. It is a good thing that two of them have been captured. But it doesn´t end there. The Editor of that ultra religious newspaper protects his writer, saying "We are Muslims and we are judged by the rules of it." and the editor repeats "Would you consent going through judgement according to Islamic rules yourselves too?"

According to Islam a fourteen year old is considered an adult. The Sheria states, in order to prove adultery or abuse, one needs to provide 4 witnesses. In the absence of those 4 witnesses, the one who claims he/she is abused is a liar. According to Islam again, you could demand forgiveness if you repent. This editor Dilipak, also accused a photomodel (Kayaci) and a veteran actress (Mujda Ar) together with the owner of the media group as porn stars.

This proves that there is a certain form of Islam that live a parasitic life in a democratic settings slowly but persistently destroying the system from within.

No need to talk about that here femmeous

and taqyya isn´t from my religion too

 If you are referring to me, I don´t think I let myself get caught in any game around here, mainly because I don´t take everything so seriously. But I do enjoy being here and learn a great deal of how different people think

--

Yes please I got bored of talking about you. Wanna have a vodka-cherry instead? I don´t have any icecubes though, it´s cold enough here as it is.

 I´ve seen a few news items about him on the Turkish television and also read of the editor you are speaking about. I was disgusted by it. Mostly by his dirty smile on television, when he was guided into a car from a building. He had the guts to deny it, and smile on television

And to consider a girl an adult at 14!! Yes, in ancient times that was rather ´old´ considering people weren´t becoming as old as we do, and the fact that us women still get our menstruation at such a young age shows that the humankind in the beginning was created to reproduce at a younger age. But times have changed. Just look at the development of several bodily/mental functions and the fysical shape of the female at 14, not fullgrown at that age in most of the cases. Some things do need change! In these times a female of 14 is not only mentally but also physically a child and should be judged accordingly.

 Actually, as far as I know, in this case it have to be male witnesses (I don´t think 8 female witnesses are allowed in this case, but not so sure on this one), and they should not have had the intention to see it, and what they saw really has to be the coitus. It is nearly impossible to proove.

 and then an abused/raped side (girl) is a liar and must be punished?

isnt it fantastic?

 I don´t know what the Islamic punishment or rules are for ´false accusations of being raped´, (yes great system indeed) but mind you, it´s definitely not only girls that are raped, in the Islamic world too, like every other part of the world, rape of young boys happens too

 i dont want to touch this too horrific stories come back to my mind.

 Tell me about it

 Speaking of the system, a close friend of mine has been sexually abused for years as a young girl (considered an adult in Islam I may add). I´ve had long nights of talks with her, and after a year she got strong enough and we went to the police and then to court with it. Due to lack of evidence (apparantly diary fragments, ´witness´ statements of people close to her and the scars on her entire body because of selfmutilation after getting in a depression that has lasted for years, do not count), the man is still on free feet. And we had suspicion he is been doing it to other girls too, but they were too frightened to make it public and add to the story.

Vicdansýz, zalim dünya.

 No dis-morphia ............. I missed out the dash originally

For Deli_kizin

"Vicdansýz, zalim dünya."

Biz bu sözü þöyle biliriz = "Vicdansýz, zalim insanlar."

Yani, Dünya´nýn ne kabahati var ki, zalim olsun?

Öyle deðil mi?

 Yes, I did miss it................ So we are very similar in that respect - I did end up with a black eye once for interferring

Öyledir tabii. Fakat yakýn bir dostun kanser hastasý olursa ve çaresi artýk kalmamýþ olursa, içmiþ olursa güzel bir kadýnýn yýllarýný, insanýn ne kabahatý var ki, zalim olsun. Bazen de vicdansýz bir dünyada yaþýyoruz. Vicdansýz tanrý/güç de diyebilirdim, ama ona zaten inanmadýðým için, inananlarý da incitmek istemedim.

(Yilgün replied to my message of ´unjust, cruel world´, saying we´d rather say that the people are unjust and cruel, because what fault has the world here?.

Ofcourse it is like that. However, when a close friend of yours becomes a cancerpatient and there is no longer a remedy, when the years of a beautiful woman have been drunken, then what fault has humankind got, to be called cruel. We do live in an unjust world sometimes. I could have said ´unjust, cruel god/power´ as well, but because I don´t believe in it anyhow, I thought I should not hurt the people who do.) 

Anyway this got a bit off topic