The holy month of Ramadan is very auspicious to the Muslims the world over. It is celebrated the day after the crescent for the 9th lunar month of the Islamic calendar is sighted. Muslims are ordained to observe a fast for 30 days (sometimes 29 days, owing to the early sighting of the crescent) starting with the sighting of the new moon and ending after seeing the new moon the next month.

Islam uses a lunar calendar, that is, each month begins with the signing of the new moon. The lunar calendar is about eleven days shorter than the solar calendar therefore Islamic holidays "move" each year. This year Ramadan will begin on August 21, 2009.

Oruç (Fasting) is one of the Five Pillars (duties) of Islam and is mandatory for all adult Muslim men and women, except the insane, infirm, sick or traveling and pregnant or feeding mothers. They can complete the prescribed number of fasting days by choosing to fast on some other days. Those who cannot fast, except with great hardship, should arrange to feed at least one needy person in lieu of the days one missed out on fasting.

Fasting means to stop eating and drinking from dawn to sunset. Dawn is the time which is about one hour before the sunrise while sunset is the time of "evening call to prayer". Sahur is the early morning or pre-fast meal eaten before the sun rises. Ramazan Davulcusu (Ramadan drummers) woke up people by walking around the neighborhoods with a big double-headed drum. They beat out variety of rhythms and sometimes may also sing a mani, a rhyming couplet. The drummers may surprise the newcomers. However they try to keep alive an old tradition from the times alarm clocks were non-existent. Just before Bayram and certainly during Bayram the drummer of your district will knock on your door for a tip.

The fast is broken with a meal, which is known as Iftar just after sunset with "evenming call to prayer". Please keep in mind that cannons are fired at Sahur and Iftar times.

For most of the muslims these two meals are more than a ritualistic part of fasting; they are pleasure. Many families have busy lives recently, with both parents working and the kids are in school. Therefore these meals are time for gathering and spend some more time together during Ramadan.

When Ramadan was falling in winter months when the nights are longer it was easier to fast since there is almost 10-11 hours between the meals (sahur and iftar). Now Ramadan begins to fall in summer months and the fasting time gets longer which is almost 17-18 hours in June and July. This year it is around 14 hours. It is wise to have light and simple meals such as breakfast at sahur in summer Ramadans.

Iftar usually begins with dates, sweet drinks, breakfast and soup followed by traditional dinner. Iftar invitations are wide spread in Ramadan. You may have Iftar gathering calls from family members, friends, and neighbors. You can also invite Muslim family and friends who are comfortable interacting with non-Muslims to such events.

During Ramadan, the night praying (yatsý namazý) is followed by a special "namaz" called Teravih. It is a kind of ritual worshipping performed only at Ramadan nights. The Muslims try to visit different mosques to fulfill the teravih praying.

Please also note that some restuarants are closed during the day time and most of the restaurants do not serve alcoholic drinks in the month of Ramadan.

Ramadan is considered holy because Koran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad during this month. Apart from bringing the Muslims face to face with the hard realities of life such as pangs of hunger, thirst and deprivation, Ramadan is an annual training period inculcating discipline and declaration of subservience to the laws of God, enumerated in the holy Koran.

A Muslim is told to give Sadaka (charity) and Fitre (alms given in Ramadan) to the poor before going to say the Bayram prayers. Muslims recite Koran intensively during this holy month.

The last 10 days of Ramadan are more important as the faithful watch for Kadir Gecesi (the Night of Power) during which the revelation of the book to the Prophet was completed. In a way it is considered the climax of Ramadan and Muslims stay awake all night praying or listening to sermons from the Imam (religious leader).

Fasting is practiced by followers of all religions in one form or other. Fasting enables one to understand the deprivations of hunger and thirst, which in turn encourages one to be kind to the poor and the needy. It is also viewed as a health care ritual by many. The establishment of an obedient and disciplined society is also fulfilled when people observe Oruç (Fast). Ramadan is a month of brotherhood, renewal of relationships and festivity and the rigor of fasting ends with the celebration of Þeker Bayramý (Sweet Festival) which is on September 20, 2009.

dear its not koran its QURAN.

Thanks

Tc

 thanks DEAR, i dont know what i would do without you

Koran is the English (and international way) of spelling. And while the language on this site is English....

Kurt - I love you!   

 i love you too DEAR lir

 Forum romance?

LIR, i guess it is time to announce some things after all this time

Are you sure you´re ready????  I´m still a bit concerned about the huge age gap    (I hope nobody´s watching this conversation )

 I am not. <whistle>

Neither am I..........hehehe, however I can keep a secret LIR

 Also Quran is the English word its not Turkish or something, and its more accurate spelling and pronouncing to the Arabic word than Koran.

Actually its pronounced Qur´an...that is the correct way

Very nice reading Kurt, thanks for posting it.

Also at Ramadan time its a chance for reunion to those people who have misunderstanding between each other or something, usually Ramadan is the suitable time for they to forgive.

Just small correction

We feed one needy person in lieu of the day one missed.

So if they missed more than one day, they feed at least one needy person for each day, if they can feed more it would increase their hasanat ´rewards´

 In any dictionary I find Koran, only in a few Qur´an so I take the most common one.

BTW Canli, how do you call the holy book of Christians? You use it´s original name or just the common known, English name?

  Well, i use its original name of it.

Ýf i talk in English, i use its English name

You see its different in Christian´s holy book, in Arabic its called Ýngeel ´Ãncil Turkish´, and in English its called Bible.

But in Quran case, we have just one name..by any language its same..

 No. It´s not in English and my language.

It may sound the same but it´s certainly not spelt the same.  Koran is most commonly spelt Koran by native English speakers - a fact which kurtlovesgrunge knew as he writes excellent English  

Congratulations Kurt and LIR!

 Yeah? You call it Biblia? I doubt it.

 Isn´t this all a bit petty?...Koran..Kuran.. Quran we all know what it means.

Exactly - so we don´t need Canli to tell us we are spelling it the wrong way!

 Why would i call it Biblia and our Christians people call it Ýncil/Ýngeel ?!

Ýf they call it Biblia i would be happy to call it same, but they dont !

 Well, its simple, your name is bydand, we can also call you baydand, or bydnd and we would assume its same too

But at the end your name will still be bydand not anything else, yes?

 Well actually LÝR, when you try to pronounce a word or something ´name´ from other language/ religion, and you want to adopt it at your language you would need to ask a native about it first, so you pronounce it correctly, and spell it correctly too

So you may not need me in person but you sure need an Arab / Muslim to spell/pronounce  it for you unless you think you ´general term´ know better than us in this too !

 I wasn´t taking any sides CANLI, I was only trying to defuse the situation.   By the way bydand is the motto of a well known Scottish regiment and has no english equivalent.

 lol So, i cant call it baydand can i ?!

Anyway, we are in Ramadan and it was a nice reading that Kurt posted

Ramadan Kerim

It would be quite hard to pronounce all proper names like native speakers, it goes for holy books as well as names or places. If the English equivalent is Koran (so it is in Polish) then why would anybody mind using that term? It reminds me of this Turkiye vs Turkey debate we had here a while ago. As long as the names are not twisted in an insulting manner, let´s use whatever suits us. I don´t mind people calling my country  Polonya or Poland although its proper name is Polska. I´m even ok with Dobrowskistan

I have nothing but admiration for all who fast for one month ,today was my first attempt ,I managed it ,but it was so hard in the heat. Tomorrow I wont fast ,I will prepare myself for the next day. All I  seemed to do all day was ask what the time was ,than when iftar came I was so excited about having a glass of water ,how we take these luzuries for granted ,but that glass of water tasted like pure heaven to me ,and this was just one day of fasting ,you guys that fast for a month are unbelievable ,I. admire your strength and commitment.

Congratulations Deli!

It was an amazing experience wasn´t it?  When you fast, each day is unique.

I´m not sure I understand the whole ´fasting´ part of Ramazan really.  

As far as the not eating goes it´s no particular hardship to go without food for a day.  I frequently only eat an evening meal and have done so throughout my adult life.  And once the iftar gun has gone off the restaurants here are doing big business with special iftar dinners and everywhere you look people are gulping food down as if there was no tomorrow.  Wiki says: ´Fasting is meant to teach the Muslim patience, modesty and spirituality´ and ´is a time of reflecting and worshipping God´ - when for a lot of people most of their thoughts seem to be occupied with how soon sundown will come around. (I suppose it keeps the wicked thoughts away to a certain extent!)  

It´s the ´not drinking´ that is the difficult thing and it´s not just difficult but, in this heat, seems to me downright dangerous.  I´m sure it helps people feel spiritual - they are probably feeling so light-headed they are seeing things.

However - a quick straw poll of people around here showed me that it´s the not being able to smoke that´s the most difficult part and many people seem to not ´do´ Ramazan because they can´t manage without a cigarette for 3/4 of a day!  The Evil Tobacco wins over Islam!

(Please Alameda, Canlý and QueenT etc. - no long posts explaining the true meaning of Ramadan/Ramazan to me - I am not disrespecting Muslims, Islam or Ramazan - just voicing my opinion)

For you be able to understand the whole fasting part of Ramazan, you should know that from Ýslam not from the behaviour of some Muslims around you.

I agree with you in this ´people are gulping food down as if there was no tomorrow´, and this is a behaviour of people and not the spirit of Ramazan nor the aim behind fasting.

It´s good you are looking forward to understand, I just ask you not to mix between Ýslam and some Muslims and I´m quite sure you´ll understand correctly.

Admiration for you too.

And admiration for whom fast the whole year.

While admiring eachother, please be careful with your health

Dangers of fasting

...

Fasting can harm all organs. It is extremely dangerous to health, especially for those who are malnourished by chronic illness, yet some proponents recommend fasting to treat chronic illnesses. The slimmer the individual, the more dangerous a fast will be. ....

Solid scientific research does not support the claims of fasting advocates. To the contrary, ...

Advocates believe that fasting can produce fatigue, anemia, irregular heartbeat, body aches, nausea, dizziness, and other negative effects. ..

Contrary to advocacy claims, fasting does not and cannot heal medical conditions, assist immune or other physiological function, or play a role in health maintenance. ...

But I also think it says that if you are not well or in some way sick at all handsom then you do not have to fast at all.  It is for those of us who are healthy and able to fast without causing harm to the body.....as far as i am aware.

 It is wrong and extremely unhealthy not to eat during the day and eat at night.

And also quite dangerous to feast straight after.

I hope you know that.

 fair enough..you can have that veiw point.  I disagree.

 this basically says that if done correctly then fasting can be healthy, from NHS website

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Healthyramadan/Pages/Fastingandhealth.aspx

 Ã wonder how fast muslims who has diabet ? pure death!

Diabetics do not have to fast in Islam.

From what age do people start fasting ?

The doctor in the article says that ´Ramadan isn´t always thought of as an opportunity to lose weight because the spiritual aspect is emphasised more´.

I would have thought people fasting would be quite unlikely to lose weight - more likely to put it on because of the huge meals they eat at night before sleeping (most diets tell you that it is not a good idea to eat large meals at night) - followed by more food at 4 in the morning often followed again by sleep. And let´s not forget that Ramazan ends with Þeker Bayram - I´ve never seen so many boxes of cakes and sweets disappear from the supermarket shelves so quickly in my life!  

I beleive it is when they reach puberty. Also the mind of the ´child´ should be mature enough to make their own decision as to whether or not to fast.  I have been told, although i have not read this myself...that if they are still not really a mature child by the time they reach puberty...there is still flexibility there with fasting.

Easy for those to work at night !

 I quite agree LIR i find it impossible to lose weight during Ramadan ...much to my disappointment.  Its just all the late night eating.  It would help if i chose more healthy options to be honest so its mostly my own fault

 When a child reach at puberty he continue growing up. He is not mature yet

Which i think is why at this point the child/adolescent has the choice.  I wonder at what age generally people begin fasting.   I am sure it does vary greatly.

Yep, thats likely when I disappear from the shelves. 

 and then wake us up a few hours later with excrutiating heartburn

STILL ADMIRING whom fasting.

and I tell you t that we discussed what you call ´dangers of fasting´ last year. And I tell you also that there is no danger from fasting, ill people and travellers can break fast and fast later or pay for not fasting.

why you keep chewing the same words all the time.

...because he´s not fasting and he can??   (sorry - REALLY couldn´t resist that )

I will remind people that they should be careful about it..

It should be reminded considering how many million diabetic people who has no clue about their medical conditions..

I wonder if there has been a survey about the number of deaths of diabetic people  during ramadan.

If it increases or not..

Mine is just reminding..

What is wrong with that?

Diabetic people don´t have to fast, they have the excuse not to fast.

How do you remind people saying ´danger of fasting´, people here and there are mature enough to know if they can fast or not.

Were you existing all over the time to remind people for such a danger, people were fasting centuries before Ýslam, since Ýslam people are fasting for centuries too, did you remind people all this time, or your ancestors did .... ( I mean ancestors in ideas)

 They say hatred eats ones heart

And handsom  hates Ýslam and dare i say us  Muslims much that he couldnt resist lol

Here, i will make it much easier for you handsom

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_33932

 lol but all people are not fasting, only Muslims fast

So i guess it should be the other way around...

Because we fast and we can ?

poor him can and deosn´t

and poor you for not keeping a secret LIR

 What was the solution for diabetics in 7th century when Islam was created?

 handsom isnt Muslim  Queent, so he´s not fasting and its not a secret.

I did think so

They would just die and their relatives would  consider  it as ´faith´!!!! 

I would NOT  jump into any conclusion like that if I were you. 

I already mentioned that people who are diabetic but dont know they are..

I am trying to remind  because ´the uplifting spirit of fasting´ seems quite strong in some of you guys..

You should not forget the dangers of it.. That is all.. 

And about the history, please read my prevous post..They were most likely considered as ´God gives, god takes..It is faith´

 Ãslam was delivered not created and i believe in the 7th century diabetics wasnt known to anyone as many other illness on that time.

 Not a conclusion handsom, you didnt make it a secret tho !

Everyone with a little brain in his head would understand this.

handsom, who gave you the assumption that we are ignorant and we dont read ?!

Ýt seems to me thats what you think about us, so you try to teach us about our religion and show us the right way !

You dont accept that we may not be ignorant and still believe in Ýslam.

As you had the choice to stop believing in Ýslam, you should accept also our choice that we believe in it and find it the suitable religion for us.

Dont pick on any chance to attack it and fight it even if it was just a debat about entering a mosque !

Have your chioce and let us have ours !

I think the level of blood suger is abit low around here...

(That was what I was talking about)

So I will stop now..

 Ãm not sure if you are asking about it, or just expressing /voicing your opinion ´which you said you dont  understand the whole ´fasting´ part of Ramazan ´

Fasting is about controlling yourself..the ability of controlling yourself not just about fast over food

But you fast over everything, bad habits, desires, food, water...etc

And try to spend your time for the aim of worshipping ALLAH, not just praying and reading Quran, but worshipping ALLAH at any other form too

To think how to make another family happy, how to help the poor to enjoy Ýftar time as same as you enjoy it, how to try to make no one need anything at that month if we can

That with the hope that spirit will continue through the whole year not only in Ramadan.

How would we control ourselves, our temper and remember that we are fasting even at the crowded traffic when someone may be a cause of an expected accident, how would we control our temper and instead of shout and fight just blame and sort it out and say ´ALLAHUMA Ýnni Sayim´ means ´ ALLAH be witness that im fasting so im controlling myself´

Ýts more than just food issue, and you start Ramadan with the intention of this, and you feel your body more healther after Ramadan, as if you were washing your own blood cells from inside.

And when Ýftar comes and you start eat, as deli said, it feels like Heaven, you would appreciate what you already have every day, and you would understand what others feel when they cant have them at other days

When you feel hungry during the day, you remember, and telling yourself, now you feel how poor would feel when he´s hungry? People at Somalia....etc

And you would discover another abilities in yourself, that you can survive with less than you thought you would.

Anyway, its joy and only Muslims would understand it.

Ýts hot in our countries, and we fast, dont eat and dont drink, and we wait for Ramadan from year to year eager for it to come, sad when its finished.

We love Ramadan, and we celebrate it as much as we can.

Ps: Post dedicated to handsom

Muslims are not the only people who understand this concept.  Lent is very similar to Ramadan and although many christians do not celebrate it in the old ways (fasting, prayer and service) it can be a kind of enlightenment for the one participating.  I think many religions participate in ritual fasting and do lots of charity work and I know some people who actually fast for the sake of fasting (some think it is healthy or cleansing) and many people I know donate to charities...these are not specifically muslim traits although I do respect that muslims do this, I would hope that the intentions of Ramadan are followed by all man/woman kind.  I think deep spiritual reflection can be very fulfilling if it is done with the right intention.

See I was right about the extra spritual lifting you get during ramadan..

And also, it is glorifying ´the fasting´ to me..

And that is  wrong!!!!!

Possibly no washing of blood cells in reality..

It is all in your head..

Eating after a long time not eating woulf give the same joy..It is not related to religious activity at all..You can be AE, believe in pasta monster, starve yourself 15 hours and then  eat , you get the same feeling basically.

Basically, do not forget the damage fasting might be causing to your internal organs..

(And also actually, with this spritiuality it is hard to see these people will stop  childeren of 13-14-15 years old from fasting when those kids  say they want to fast..Becasue they will feel obliged to fast with that glorifying feeling around them)

 Haaaa, haaaa, haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa lolllllllllllllll

Ohhhh, handsom, you couldnt resist lol

Ý knew it lollllllllll

Even you said you will stop, but you couldnt... lollllllll

And i knew it lollllllllllll

That post actually was dedicated to you lol

You cant stand it, even i am muslim myself, and im fasting now too, and im saying im enjoying it, and loveing it, and how its related of cource to my religion..islam

STÝLL, you deny it lollllllllll

You DARE to deny me what i feel in order to correct the wrong in  glorifying ´the fasting lollllllllll

Even you try to redirect the issue about children now so we start another debat about it, and you try your best to attack it lol

Nope, not now...im enjoying the glory of my Ýslam now, manybe later when i have more time for fighting after Ýftar , reading Quran, and maybe also praying Teravih too

Ohhh Man, accept it

Our Ýslam is our glory to us...like it or not lolllllllllllllllllllll

And i will dedicate the post for you lol

 But you dont fast till specific time of the day, right ?!

Ý mean what i understand, you dont eat some sort of food, and you cook your food with oil not with butter or alike

And that would be for 40 days or something, yes ?!

Totally agree

So many lols Canli..i THINK It is much related to your blood sugar level.. 

As you know, all your glory is in your head..

And I am not attacking you..I can assure you

What I am saying is that you are glorifying fasting.

And in my blief IT IS WRONG!!!

What do you mean I can not stand it? of course after all those years I can..

But it does not look like you used to someone coming up and saying ´IT IS WRONG´ to you..

Well anyway...

I hope you are keeping your kids away from this..

You keep feeling uplifted while i keep saying that ´it is wrong and the feelings you have are just in your head..You can have the same feelings with other drugs or group theraphy´

Yes actually handsom, and im still laughing too lol

Ohhh boy you REALLY cant stand it lol

Dont worry about my blood sugar level, im healthy and strong elhamdülillah, i can fast .

Ýt doesnt effect us, but sure it effect people who couldnt take it lolll

Ýts MY head, and its MY glory and its MY religion, what is YOUR problem then ?! lol

We are talking about Fasting in Ramadan in Ýslam faith, and you say its wrong in your belief, what belief if i may ask ?

Anti Ýslam belief ?! lol

Sure thats what it seems!

And no, you cant stand it, you cant stand having people proud of their religion, Ýslam and holding tight on it and see it their glory

You keep talking and repeating yourself about freedom, human rights..bla bla ...etc

But when it comes to Ýslam you wipe all of this...the issue to you that Muslims should stop believing in Ýslam, and how can we corrupt it by reforming it.

Anything...but the main thing is...we stop believing in it...!

Didnt i tell you, that you had your choice...let us having ours and dont try to impose your guardianship over us

We are not kids, and we are smart, intelligent, have minds and able to use them AND we choose to be muslims still

Just accept it !

And have i told you that i have kids so you worry about them ?!

Let´s worry about our kids and you worry about yours.

Or do you want to convert our kids in order be bring them up properly as non muslims ?!!!

And ohhhh, Ý will pick the fasting to enjoy those feelings and will leave  drugs and group theraphy to you !

 Btw, that was low !

Ý didnt force you to believe in my religion, so you SHOULD respect my choice in believing in it !

And not compare it to having drugs !

Ým not mentally ill handsom !

....I don´t think you got what I meant at all  

.....and neither did  you 

....clearly my career as a stand-up comedian(ienne) is over before it started  

Glad to hear that!

I have to agree with you here.  Every health expert I have encountered promotes either 3 balanced meals or 5 small meals a day.  I understand the spirtuality aspect of it since Catholics also give up meat on Fridays through Lent and occassionaly fast.  But times have changed and over the years fasting is not a mandated practice of our faith, it´s more free will for those who find spirtuality in it.  The only thing I have ever taken away from it..is the appreciation to have food.  Mabye there is more to it!

I can understand how this could be dangerous for some people, even those who aren´t aware they could have an underlying medical condition.  That´s why it should only be for those who volunteer but not mandated as part of their faith.

It actually sounds funny to me to read about fasting while it is not really fasting but waiting for a huge meal. I don´t mean to insult anybody but if Ramadan was about living on bread and water it would make more sense. Yet it is not eating or drinking anything all day long and making up for it in the evening. It makes as little sense as not eating meat on Fridays that Christians do. How on Earth is it supposed to bring you closer to God? Is your rumbling stomach God´s favourite tune? I think the idea is great, I mean, if you feel hunger you´re more likely to understand people who can´t afford food. Still, the fact that your fast lasts some 12 hours ridicules their pain.

Anyway, I don´t understand strong objections some members have here about Ramadan - since it´s entirely up to you whether you want to fast or not, what´s the problem? As for children, well, if their parents are so stupid that they risk not starvation but dehydration, it means the parents are fools, not that the whole fasting idea is stupid. Nobody healthy will die of not eating for 12 hours...If you have a condition you don´t know about you´ll likely discover it and go to hospital. It´s not 7th century

To fast or not to fast? - Big Ado About Nothing

Not attacking, not hating, just a few questions that I´ve got during the many years I am a teacher with 60% Muslim students now:

1. Diabetics do not HAVE to fast, but I know several who do. Partly out of ignorance, they simply don´t believe what the (Western!) doctor says, partly because of ´social pressure´ - everyone around them fasts so they say they feel like ´outcasts´ if they don´t. Why this pressure, why this not believing the doctor?

2. Children are forced (!!) by their parents to fast. I have at least 3 students with young children who have to fast, girls from the age of 9 and boys from 14. Children at that age have not matured, it can´t be healthy for them. Besides, is force allowed? I bet not.

3. I´ve been told that fasting should be like a sacrifice, feeling what less fortunate people have all life for just 28/29 days a year. Half of my Muslim students take a holiday, are not working, not going to school during Ramazan because ´it is too hard to do´. What sacrifice? What compassion?

4. A few (happily a minority) of my students refuse to come to school because we have coffee/tea breaks during 3 hour class and they expect all of us to give that up because they are fasting. (All of us = Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Agnost and Atheist students/teachers).

I´m not making this up, this is what has happened/happens each year. Anyone who can explain?

DD - you are far too sensible to be a member of this site!!  (I am sure theH will be agreeing with me)

Hwhat? Sensible? Moi?

Ahm, ok, I´ll add some silly emoticons in order to prove my lack of common sense

see? The above is not sensible at all

OK - you can lurk in the disguise of ´unsensibility´  

(NB English learners - there is really no such word as ´unsensibility´ )

Quoting lady in red

 (Please Alameda, Canlý and QueenT etc. - no long posts explaining the true meaning of Ramadan/Ramazan to me - I am not disrespecting Muslims, Islam or Ramazan - just voicing my opinion)

 

 

 Ummm....Excuse me???? Now is that prejudice or what? I have made one 16 word comment in this thread...............and it was only in response to Deli´s comment about attempting to fast. 

I have NEVER attempted to explain the "true" meaning of anything here....much less Ramazan.  I have only attempted to focus a ray of light on some aspects of truth, as I understand it.

Oh OK - sorry (she says entering into the Ramadan spirit of thinking nice thoughts) 

I personally feel much closer to Allah this ramadan because i am fasting. and when i am fasting i feel quite peaceful, i never swear, i try not to be angry, i try not break heart, i pray 5 times a  day, i read quran every day, i help poor people etc.. if you think fasting is just to stay hungry all day, it is ignorance of you. maybe it would be better to search about what Prophet Muhammed says about fasting what it should be like. maybe then you would understand its spirit.and i just dont understand why some non-muslim members of this site are so indisposed with fasting.  just let people do it.  just a bit respect would be nice of you. To criticize religions about anything doesnt make you look more intelligent we are happy with that. and also i have been fasting every ramadan since i was 11 years old and i have never felt ill because of it.

How many muslims who are fasting thinks on poor people or pray to Allah? Ým living in Turkey from some years but i heard only : ´im fasting, i feel very week, is so hard, what is the time...there are xx hours left..´ and so on.

I know I couldn´t remain peaceful if I fasted - there would be plenty of swering and grumpiness, that´s for sure.

What I resent is your statement that criticizing religion about anything doesn´t make people look intelligent. I think it´s far more intelligent to question and criticize everything, including religion (why should religion be immune to it?) than to accept everything without questioning its merit and truthfullness  - that to me seems like being brainwashed. I can respect people´s decision and practice to fast, but don´t ask me to respect the idea of fasting itself if I have a different opinion (which I really don´t, I couldn´t care less, not my stomach).

 In Islam , only the healthy can  fast. Babies, the old, women menstruating, and the sick are not asked to fast. You´´re only supposed to fast if you can. They dont force people with diabetes or any sickness or weakness to fast.

 why is it that islam keeps on treating menstruating women as if they were sick?  can you update your books and learn that menstruation is a NORMAL physiological process? kind of similar to urinating when your bladder is full.. maybe some muslims need a bit of enlightement this ramadan.

they still have to fast those days after

Also, everyone on here who is criticizing Ramadan/Ramazan shouldn´t be. You´re not Muslim, you don´t have to do it so why are you making a fuss? Everyone is allowed to believe whatever they want. It´s their religion, their beliefs, and you must respect that no matter what your opinion is. There is no harm in fasting. It´s not going to kill you, or anyone else for that matter. If that´s what someone wants to do - then let them do it. Even if you say you´re not meaning to disrespect any islam followers, you still are by questioning their belief or criticizing it. It´s not like they´re forcing you to fast along with them, so there is no need to be critical.

Ramazan Kerim!

For us foreigners looks more exotic like this 

 Because, it is a time of weakness when we are menstruating. For example, we feel pain in cramps, we may have a bigger appetite, etc. It is a normal physiological process, yes, but it is still a time of weakness. It´s to make it easier for women.

What about pregnant women ?

 Pregnant and nursing women can leave fasting if they want to. They have to make it up for the next year though. So instead of fasting for 30 days, they´d fast for 30 days PLUS the days that they missed the next Ramadan.

Who can give me a statistic of car accidents on..lets say Ýstanbul during Ramazan and on a normal month ?

 I could care less if people choose to starve themselves and dehydrate during the day.  But I don´t want to hear how courageous and great this is in the same breath that these people are complaining and bitching how hungry they are.  If your doing it for the right reasons..and not just because your told by the Koran and have no appreciation or value to it, then I think it´s quite ridiculous.  If you get meaning out of it, then I applaud you.

I must absolutely nothing, not from anyone, not even the law. It is ALWAYS my own choice to obey a law or to pay respect to people I think who deserve it (and that´s NOT automatically). Demanding my respect makes me only more critical.

 Well, if you dont respect us, and our belief, how would expect that we can have any sort of communication between us ?!

Ýf you dont respect us, how would you expect us to care more or less to answer any question or to share any appropriate debat at anything with each other ?!

Where did Trudy say she didn´t respect you and your beliefs?   She said she did not agree that respect should be ´demanded´ of her.

 Ã believe iLoVetHaTx3  has already answered your question .

And as for updating our books, we just have one book which is Quran to set the rules for us and thats the one we follow and sorry we dont do that, we dont update or change what God sent, its same book since the time it was delivered till now and till eternity inþallah.

And as for enlightenment, why would you expect that muslims will accept enlightenment from non muslim about something related to our religion ?

Do you find that logic ?!

Wouldnt be more logic that we know more about our religion and why ALLAH order us that and for what reason better than non muslims ?!

 Thats what Trudy were replying to

As you see iLoVetHaTx3 wasnt asking for anything other than respect the other´s belief and that is what Trudy were objecting to

So, you tell me !

It is called ´fate´, ´destiny´,  ´predestination´ and not ´faith´.

I see clearly that Canlý is completely right about you, you´re just against ´faith´ and Ýslam as well, till you mixed between faith and fate...

I agree with Canlý again when she asked if you don´t know English and if so, you should ask for translation...

I decided not to reply...

This shows  how  you ´strong´ muslims respect people when they make  a spelling mistake..!!

Then you turn around and cry ´they are not respecting my religion´  

I just read this post properly.  How can you possibly equate not eating during the day with how the starving of Somalia feel?  How can you say that by not eating for 15/16 hours you are feeling like they do??  When you know at the end of this period you are able to eat ´and it feels like Heaven´  When they don´t know when or if the next ´meal´ is going to appear?  Fast if you want to by all means but don´t try to pretend its the same thing as starvation.

iLoVeHatx3 didn´t ask for respect, she said you must respect and that is what Trudy was objecting to.

I still say Canlý is right right right right

I love you Canlý sister

It is not a spelling mistake handsome

you repeated it at least 3 times

I don´t cry   ´they are not respecting my religion´

I feel sorry for them and i may cry  ´where are they going to go´

About what, what, what, what????

You can love your sister Canli..

She is still not right.

She is just repeating herself and confessing that she can not defend her beliefs logically and going to last resort: ´that is my belief and you can not question it´ .

That is a confession!! Why it is a confession because no religion can be defended logically and scientifically, because in the end, they all are dogmas..

And all dogmas can ONLY be defended the way Canli is defending ´it is what I believe´ ( You are also adding that ´you can not critisize it´

I added some more into that line :

I decided not to reply...

This shows  how  you ´strong´ muslims respect people when they make  a spelling mistake..!!

Then you turn around and cry ´they are not respecting my religion´  

Read properly before sending a chain of wh

 Ã fast for 15/16 a day as you say, and you dont, so sure i can have better idea than you.

Ýf you want to know how would it make you sympathise more with Somalia and the poors, try to fast for a month and find the answer for yourself !

Ha ha, 

Well of course, fasting is finished, you can be as nasty as you can now..

I was right all along about ´how  everything is in your head´..

Yours is a kind of  group therapy really..

And People all around you (millions of people maybe) joining this  does not change  that fact!!

Well

That is the real face now..

Because you fast, you are more compassioanate than the people who do not fast?

That is a revelation!!!

you say that Canlý repeats

As if you are saying new word of new age every second.

you´re repeating too

the difference Canlý is respectful and doesn´t show hate and rancour, that you show clearly towards our religion Ýslam.

YES I love my sister, do you have a problem with that too?

So only muslims should respect others, and others shouldnt respect them UNLESS they feel like it ?!

No sorry !

I do not THINK you are not respecting others ideas here..

Ah Ah

you seem to show how clever you are.

no success for you

as long as you have that black rancour inside your heart, you can still say all kinds of insults

I don´t say insults all over the year, as you can

...sorry - I thought I was back in Kindergarten.

Ý believe im not a new member and you just knew me and read my thoughts now so you say that is the real face

Ýf after all that time you are able to know and judge  the person in front of you just now, im afraid you have many things you need to learn in life and non could relay on your judgement ! 

At least not me !

You can ask around ´seems you not able to know it by yourself´ im the same person now and 3 years ago !

THAT is what I was trying to say since the begining:

Because she fasts she thinks ´she can understand somalian people better ´ or she thinks ´ she has better idea about those people than a person who does not fast´

far from it

I did not say you have changed at all!!!!

Could you tell us what you meant by then? :

Ý fast for 15/16 a day as you say, and you dont, so sure i can have better idea than you.

Ýf you want to know how would it make you sympathise more with Somalia and the poors, try to fast for a month and find the answer for yourself !

of course

It´s obvious true

Thanks for the confirmation Queent..  

Did I (or anyone non-Muslim here) ever said we DEMAND you to respect us / our ideas / beliefs? No. I won´t DEMAND that and I don´t think anyone will. You, on the other hand, do. And if I not immediately say I do, you are whining about disrespect. Believe what you believe but don´t expect me to accept everything (including what you do) as if it is normal for me, because it is not. I am and will critisize religions (all, yes!) as long as I live, I will continue saying that I think they are men-invented and not of this time. And no-one can stop me from doing that, especially not with DEMANDING respect. 

 Well thehandsom, you aren´t exactly respectful either.  In fact it seems you take special delight in trying to break people´s iman.

Of course, you can not prove there is, or there is not.  As I have said before, iman is like an extra sense, it´s like seeing, hearing, tactile sensation....some are born deaf and blind.

You are not making sense at all with above...I am not breaking anybody´s iman at all here..

The confirmation is for Canlý not for you

I was telling you that she is RIGHT

 Well, if i think that, its my problem not yours, still i have an idea for you

Why dont you ask a little boy/girl if you dont eat for a long time would you feel/understand the meaning of hunger more than the one who eats or not...

And tell me what would he/she say !

And before you criticise me for having my own believes which i dont impose them on others, you can look at yourself first you think because you are not muslim any more, you know better about Ýslam and you can breach us about Ýslam and muslims and guide us to the light if you believe there is one !

Canli - I think this emoticon -  - was invented for you.   I think handsom  has posted something on the lines of what I was going to say if my connection wasn´t so annoyingly erratic/slow, i.e. why does fasting make you so superior? 

Anyway - life´s too short,  and I´m too far from the Kindergarten to be really bothered so I´ll say goodnight and leave others to continue banging their heads against a brick wall.

Sorry to say that this is really Disrespectful LIR

Have sweet dreams

I have no intention to ´breach´ you and Queent

The point here that you, because of fasting, seeing yourself as a BETTER person than the others who do not fast..

Sorry but that is nothing to do with Islam you believe..( It looks like I can really ´breach´ you about Islam. Because you really do not know what you believe.)

Sorry guys..I think that is kind of ´enough´..

 And Why not being Muslim would make you so superior ?!

Ý´ve expressed what i feel while im fasting, its my fasting, and my feelings and you didnt like that !

And you started to question ME about what Ý feel !

Night !

Who knows? Do you really know the effect of your words? Do you know who reads your words? Now as I write there are 44 online users, 22 logged on...........then there are those who will come later and read your words....do you know how your words effect them?

Well then, no more than you and Canli would have expected is it?   Is ´banging your head against a brick wall´ a disallowed expression all of a sudden - its quite common in the UK when a person refuses to see any point but there own.  I am sure Canli doesn´t need you to speak for her btw, she is more than capable of speaking for herself.

 Or maybe its your own feelings and that is what its all about !

And since you are not a muslim yourself, so sorry you cant lecture us/me about Ýslam, even i wont accept it from any muslim except from the one that is able convince me...and that would double it, its sure not you !

 Absolutely not. LIR is only expressing her ideas. Wanting her to stop that, well yes, by denying someone their expressive rights, THAT is disrespectful. You should learn to stop moaning about ´respect´ and ´disrespect´ when someone does not say Amen to your ideas and beliefs. Grow up.

Here we consider ´bang your head against a brick wall´ a rude expression, it is street language, and for sure it´s not appropriate for a high level conversation

 Hmmm....I didn´t read anyplace where Canli or Queent claimed to be superior to  others not fasting.  Rather, they showed gratitude and thankfulness as a result of their fasting.  IOW they showed an increase in compassion.

Nope..

It wont work Alameda..

Pls go back and read..

 If the faith is so easy to destroy, then there wasnt any faith at all.

It must be such a weak and faulty full of errors religion that needs so many furious defenders.

According to you I should grow up??

Hmm, I´m grown up enough to know the respect from the disrespect, I didn´t ask anyone to say Amen to my ideas and beliefs

AGAIN I´m saying to you Trudy that I´ll count your words in front of Allah (swt) in Judgment day, this is for thehandsom and LÝR and everyone whom chewing bitter words always and always.

Those are my last words in this thread.

 And that ÝS the whole point

We did NOT demand anyone to say amen to our ideas and beliefs, we just say WE believe in them.

And YOU want to deny US that, by saying how not logic , dangerouse and not logic it is !

Fine...i accept

You believe in what you like and let me believe in what i like without ÝMPOSÝNG YOUR ideas on me or my belief !

 Be my guest.

It seems to me that ´there´ you consider everything rude.  If you don´t like mixing with us rude Brits/Americans/Europeans, nobody is forcing you.  Perhaps we should opt for 2-tier membership here - one for ´high-level´ people and one for the rest.

Well it is better if they are your last words really..

Because you are getting more and more bitter and it  is not going well with the earlier promotions..

 Can I join the restgroup? I´m sure there are members who aren´t that easily upset.

 Yes its weak and faulty full of errors religion that about 1,525,532,460 - 1,559,728,143  person believe in, but sure you know better !

We have something called ´´respecting the religion´ its a muslim thing, thats why you dont find us make fun of our religion or other´s religions or prophets.

 Respecting the religion? You´re funny. Tell that to all Muslims who are calling names to non-Muslims (not to talk about physical violence).

Yes as you said it yourself many times but you always coming back not resisting a chance to attack Ýslam or Muslims

And she is getting bitter ?!

All of you are getteing over her, attacking her for just being Muslim and practicing her religion and stating that she is loving, convencing about it !

A Christian, agnostic, and you

And all of you lecture us many, many time about so many things i didnt see you practice here...

Well, at least not with us muslims.

 Please excuse me, I am pretty busy and must admit I have not gone over each and every post in this thread with a fine tooth comb.  I do agree, pride and feeling superior are not the most elevated emotions in any circumstance, however I did not see that in Queent or Canli´s posts.  Couldyou point to any specific one,  or is it your opinion?

IMHO, one shoule feel privileged and grateful  to have been able to perform the Ramazan fast.  I think feeling prideful and superior would cancel much of the (sevap) benefits of fasting.

 Well, we wont go far, search TLC and tell me about it, who is respecting others religion more than who ?!

And Please, dont start talking about physical violence

Remember, our souls are dear to us same as yours to you...so they are counted too !

Rule 10 of Turkish Class : Discussion on politics or religion and religious matters is allowed as long as the topic does not get personal or agressive.  I guess there should be an additional sentence "unless you are a mod, an admin, a friend of a mod".

Has anyone EVER criticised Christmas here?  The fact that you stuff yourselves until you are sick with food and chocolates, give eachother ever increasingly expensive presents, get drunk and call yourselves Christian?  Is THAT healthy?  No.  So why are you so concerned that people are fasting?  Does it affect you?

I gave up arguing about religion some time ago - what is the point?  People naturally become very emotive and you will not change someone´s faith by arguing, you will merely alienate yourselves from them and deeply hurt their feelings.  If you have no religion or have opposing views that is a personal choice or decision.  This kind of talk only increases hate, xenophobia and fundamentalism.  On a more local level, you offend some really great TC members.

You might like to rush to be the first to call me a hypocrite - no problem, I´ve never pretended that I have tunnel vision and like to think that the older I get, the wiser I get

 You very well know I´m not talking exclusively about Muslims on TLC when mentioning respect but you stated that ´it was a Muslim thing´. Maybe you should ask some guys in Indonesia, Sudan or Nigeria why they kill people only, yes only!!, because they´re not a Muslim. That´s what I meant with violence but you seem to enjoy turning my words.  

 Post of the year!!!  Absolutely brilliant!!! 

But I have to say, I do enjoy the intermingling of low-brow imbeciles and high-level intellectuals! 

I get some of my best laughs from the TC brain trust!!  I mean, where else can you find people so pretentious and pompous?  And where else can you find people who throw insults with every word but THINK they are so clever that mere nit-wits won´t understand!?!?  

Gosh, I dunno, I think I would REALLY miss that!! 

 Perhaps you should read your history books.  The Brits and the Dutch (among other "Christian" countries) were doing that LONG before....

and they don`t do it anymore?

 Noo, noo, noo, you got that wrong, muslims were killed in Nigeria by christians where the majority there are muslims but the Christian countries are supporting the ruling Christians there where they are almost %20 of the population, and you can check that out !

And you also Forgot China, didnt you, there were Muslims there not others

How about Ýraq and Afghanistan...?!

We dont draw offensive cartoons or make offensive movies about other´s religions

We dont talk without respect about others prophets...etc

Anyway, iLoVetHaTx3 asked respect from TLC members not from the whole world, so did Queent and so do i.

That respect wont neither  decrease nor increase my belief.

Actually it wont effect my own belief nor Ýslam over all

The point is, it will make us able to share one place and communicate.

Mutual respect its called.

Respecting what the other belif is respecting his/her choice, it donest mean you believe or accept what they believe !

So ÝT ÝS  exclusively at TLC not about the whole world

Ýn fact i dont give a d**n about the whole world and what do they think or feel about us Muslims, i have my beliefe and thats enough for me

They think we are wrong, we also think they are wrong, if they dont like us...so what, we also wont like them

Ý dont really care !

Ýts about TLC and members here, because we share same place, and to be even able to communicate and talk with each others, where you refused what s/he asked and said..´´when i feel like it ´´ !

Nobody is going to win this argument.  This goes round and round every time these discussion start up.  Accusations are thrown from both sides, everybody gets all riled up and pissed off and twisted up (which is another thing I really don´t understand but I guess I will save that commentary for another time)!

If a muslim person chooses to fast....why should anyone else get their panties all knotted over it?   You don´t have to participate so eat up!!! 

And on the other side....if someone doesn´t respect your choice....who cares!!!  What difference does it make what anyone thinks as long as you are ok with your reasons for doing it and it is a choice for you.

This back and forth solves nothing and only stirs up tension.   Everyone wants the final word!!! 

You all just need to get over yourselves.

what are those names? raghead? diaperhead?

 I´m not demanding anything. I´m just letting you know that when you criticize someone else´s belief it´s disrespectful. So, if you want to go on to be a judgemental, disrespectful, ignorant person then go ahead, it´s your life. You will be the one judged at the end of the day by the Highest Power. It´s wrong to criticize someone else´s belief. It´d be different if their belief was to kill every non-Islam or something of that nature, but what they´re doing isn´t harming anyone. So therefore, don´t disrespect others beliefs. You wouldn´t want someone to disrespect your ways or your beliefs, it would offend you, so there for , sus. Like they say, if you don´t have anything nice to say, then don´t say anything.

 It´s not what I meant. I should´ve been more clear. You must respect others beliefs, if you want to be a good , open - minded, respectful indivual. Also, if I was demanding respect, I would´ve said way more than that.

True, but we don´t necessarily should see and treat this as an argument to win. I think it´s good to share ideas and see what different people think. Occasionally that leads to someone learning something.

 True enough but learning can only happen when people are actually open to hearing other points of view...not just in defending their own. 

Quantity doesnt make impressions on me, but quality. You see there are over 6 billion of us. All 6 billions are idiots, only a few are genius.

Herkese merhaba

Actually Quran and Koran are both right. Please check .

Selamlar and happy Ramadan.

Hana

 +10000000000000000

 It must really be hard to impress you. Many eminent scientists, philosophers and statesmen dedicated their work to society. The Renaissance was a manifestation of the acknowledgement of the value of human. Even God is reported to have created the entire universe for humans.

Thoughts of young people are like trains* , they easily get derailed.

(It does make sense in Turkey)

Absolutely agree!! 

People are learning..

+100000000

 Yeah SOME people learn - when will you?

May be you are right..

May be I should learn from Canli and Queent..

Let me think..ermm.

Do you want me to start fasting then?

Shall I join the group threapy?

will you join me?  

Here we go again 

during days still and still same....people come on!!!!!  its bored

 Somebody stop me! (The Mask)

 Biri beni durdursun! (Maske)

  +1

sorry guys I got bored, but why oh why is it that when someone praises another for doing something that requires total commitment and pure strength ,others jump straight on the band wagon  with negativities.As it has been said everyone has choices ,and I chose to fast,OH and by the way while I was out enjoying the simple pleasure of eating a meal ,there was a young boy who i see everyday ,so I took  my plate of food and sat on the wall and shared it with him.Im not looking for praise ,I am just trying to experience a NEW experience .OH and by the way I am TRYING!  to fast again  today.  so up your bum

I just cannot see how anyone is learning anything from this debate/argument.  Its just getting everyones backs up the wrong way.  By saying that people are learning from it just seems to me like an excuse not to end this ..neverending discussion.  People are getting offended on both sides and im sure that is not the aim of TC. 

i think the problem is people of TLC just love arguing soooooooo much it could be about ramadan or any other thing. there will always be reasons to fight. summer is gone, TLC season has begun. it will be much worse in winter

I completely agree! I do wish the arguments didnt have to get so personal all the time.  Rules constantly get broken...and if the rules are broken by the right people ...then the rules get changed to accomodate them its a nightmare.  I can understand why lots of people get paranoid about voicing their opinion.  It usually results in a full scale.....ambush

So could we  say "please, stop!"

ok STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP lol  and lets all be friends and start a new conversation about something nice ..

   How beautiful is beautiful and bad is bad

 Jim Carry! 

 As usual you completely miss the point.  Learn to live and let live when such things completely unaffect you.

Group therapy with you?  Stop trying to get me to be with you canim

Lets start a group therapy ! 

 Is alcohol the therapy?

 I try to smooth the subject over.

Jim Carrey and Ramadan.

I searched on internet and found this:

http://www.fikirbaz.com/arsiv/000654.html

Good point!

The most funny banner (for me) was RAMAZANDA CEZAEVÝNDEYÝZ  means ´ on Ramazan we are in jail´ ?????

Sultanahmet mosque?

Lest change the subject a bit then..

Did you know that that mosque was the only mosque in islamic world in its time as a mosque with 6 minarets only...

Later on, they discovered that there was another mosque with 6 minarets in saudi Arabia and then they added another minaret into that mosque in order to keep the uniqness of Sultanahment mosque.

And one more info, that mosque was the first mosque built by an Ottoman sultan with money from tresury.. (Earlier , all the mosques were built with the booty)

That was the reason people of Istanbul protested that and did not go to the mosque appr.. for 100 years..

You know it was said for old Bayrampaþa Jail

http://www.on5yirmi5.com/genc/v1/oku.aspx?c=7267

Fasting exists in all religions,and in all populations around the globe and for different reasons.I believe it started as a soul purificaton from the daily cravings as a way to give the soul the upper hand over the body,to show that the mind is superior.I personally used to fast on and off,(I suffer from hypoglycemia),I considered it as a disciplin,but no matter how religious I am I cannot believe that not eating during a few hours,no matter how hard it is,makes me a better muslim.I can fast if I live my days in slow motion in order not to consume energy............but I felt stupid doing that.I changed my fasting ,so instead of not eating i try to be honest(not always easy as small lies are sometimes necsssary if you do not want to hurt the feelings of others),to be there for  whoever needs help,and so on.

I would like here to add that I can´t understand  that a pillar of a religion is conditionnal.The Koran explicitely talks about fasting only for those who can.................and those who are incapacitated go to hell ?................sorry,but this is not my Islam. 

My guess is that we haven´t studied the Book hard enough,I read it at least 20 times and although it mentions fasting as a must,it never says it is a pillar.it is a must as much as being loving,caring,fair,honest  are..............but not a pillar.

No offend ment here,please try to be openminded,make an effort to understand yourself instead of believing what you are told.Make your own decisions,well now that IS A MUST explicitely mentionned in the Book.

For

 those who do fast I wish them easy fasting,Hana

Good post, Hana, this I can agree with.

it is because it was built only ar XVIII century, much later than it is claimed to be.

I am really interested to hear about this more Raindrops..

I have checked the dates again. It was built by Architect  Mehmet (a student from Sinan school) with the order from sultan Ahmed I who was the ruler between 1603 and 1617.

The mosque was built between 1610 and 1616 (which  is also the year when shakspeare died). And a year later Ahmed I died without praying that much in the mosque itself..

Anyway, that is what I know from the sources..

Can you show any sources or tell  us  regarding the post above?