Political commentators debate whether recent events indicate that Turkey is turning away from the West and towards the Islamic world.

During the past few years, the European Union has made it virtually impossible for Turkey make progress with accession talks. Many Turkish media have expressed a sense of rejection at the hands of Europe, especially France, Germany, Austria, and Cyprus.

At the same time, the Turkish government has taken steps to promote a human-rights agenda that is intended to placate the E.U. Various recent reforms have attempted to resolve tensions with the large Kurdish minority in southeastern Turkey.

http://worldfocus.org/blog/2009/10/21/ask-your-questions-turkey-torn-between-east-and-west/7899/

I dont disagree with those commentators. Turkey is becoming more and more Islamic.

TT

is it good or bad? 

I really don´t know. I dont want this country to be like Iran or S. Arabia. I´m just giving my personal opinion. To me, yes, Turkey is becoming more and more Islamic.

I have a double feeling about it  It is clear that the current government is also pushing for the women-as-homeworker view, and god-fearing-men-only doing work outside the home, which is more Islamic I guess. But on the other hand, I see the touristic places become less and less Islamic. The things I have seen (Turkish)  people do right in front of a mosque are disgraceful. When I see a drunken dudu puke in the bushes next to the mosque, because he´s drunk like a skunk, I wish he was more Islamic

I`m wondering why this is an issue for the christians. how about the fact that the christian countries are getting more and more christian and nazist? that doesn`t seem to bother the christians much.

Are they? I haven´t seen a drastic change here

 And which Christian countries would they be?  Most European countries could not be more cosmopolitan if they tried!  Natzism is a minoirity just like Islamic militants are..................... and most Christians hate both.... You always refer to the minority rather than the majority and no one on here is persuaded by your [not very persuasive] rhetoric.

Nono, LL, you are seeing this wrongly. Every Western man or woman is  Christian therefore a Nazi. It´s that simple in the views of some here.

I bet he´s referring to the issue of sharia law in the uk, legalised abortion in most Christian countries, euthanasia in Cloggieland, religious freedom granted in constitutions, prosecution of nazists in most legal systems...yeap, that surely is a proof of how nazism and Christianity are taking over Europe

 hmm i see generalisation and racism are rearing their ugly heads again, how unsurprising that you should say what you did, what would be really impressive, instead of just spouting racist remarks, is if you could back up what you say with exactly what countries you are refering to and the facts of this supposed natzism, or are all christians just lumped in together? 

 Well, even though I hate Tami´s "christian" comments/generalisations, I see no racism in his comment and in fact what he says is true - racism and nazism are growing in popularity at an alarming rate in europe

In addition, you may be offended at being called "Christian" as a country/state, but the fact is, whether or not you are personally religious, we ARE christian countries (you personally happen to live in a country extremely influenced by catholicism) and the people who feel so offended by being called so seem to have no hesitation in calling others "muslim countries"...

 You may believe this to be true, but I would remind you that the UK have recently elected TWO members of the European Parliament who are from the nazi supporting BNP party...

Ok, mayb i was a bit quick to fly off the handle there!!  but racism is an intolerance of other race or races and i can certainly feel his intolerance.. and yes maybe what he said is true but racism is a problem in every culture and every country and not just isolated to Christian countries, i take offence at being lumped in with the Nazis just because im from a Christian country, he seems to think Christianity and Nazism go hand in hand (and ive read back through some of his posts so im not just talking about this particular one) and maybe im wrong but i find that a bit racist. Racism works both ways, and just because im Catholic doesnt mean that someone cant be racist towards me

I am not offended in the slightest by being called ´Christian´ as a country, and im not particulary religious, i just get angry because i dont consider myself to be racist, but because i happen to have been born in a Christian country i can be generalised into being one  

but maybe i should stop talking it now  b4 i get myself into trouble haha 

Quoting ally81

 

 

 

Ok, mayb i was a bit quick to fly off the handle there!!  but racism is an intolerance of other race or races and i can certainly feel his intolerance.. and yes maybe what he said is true but racism is a problem in every culture and every country and not just isolated to Christian countries, i take offence at being lumped in with the Natzis just because im from a Christian country, he seems to think Christianity and Natzism go hand in hand (and ive read back through some of his posts so im not just talking about this particular one) and maybe im wrong but i find that a bit racist. Racism works both ways, and just because im Catholic doesnt mean that someone cant be racist towards me

 

I am not offended in the slightest by being called ´Christian´ as a country, and im not particulary religious, i just get angry because i dont consider myself to be racist, but because i happen to have been born in a Christian country i can generalised into being one  

but maybe i should stop talking it now  b4 i get myself into trouble haha 

 

 

 

 

 

 I agree that there is racism everywhere.  Instead of flying off the handle at Tami about this comments, a better question would be why does he get so aggitated when we discuss Turkey in this context?  He seems to feel it unfair and feel that we are judging when we have no right to judge.  I think he forgets this is TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS and therefore topics about Turkey WILL appear in the forums and that people are here because they are interested in Turkey and the language!!!!  He seems to just view it as if Turkey is being picked on!!

I couldnt agree with you more, I think the majority of people are here because they fell in love with the country and are genuinely interested in learning more about the country and learning the language, of course there are a few who just wanna be able to communicate with their dudu´s with translations . But yes of course topics about Turkey are going to appear and of course people with a genuine interest in Turkey are going to read them and maybe comment on them, I can understand and I totally, 100% respect his patriotism, but there are better ways to defend ones country!!!!!

I´m getting very irritated with people throwing around the word nazi on this forum like it´s nothing. Somebody who is a bit of a bigot, and who´s a bit of a racist, is not a nazi, who is all for ethnic cleansings... Be careful using this word, maybe you should check the history books for what it really means, before you call every bigot idiot a nazi.

 Hi barba mama, yes I agree with you and I hope you dont think that I am one of these who are throwing this word around like it was meaningless, I 100% know what this word means, I have vivid and disturbing memories of studying this particular history in school, hence why i got so offended with being compared to one simply because Im from a Christian country

AE - that´s the thing - Tami uses a lot of simplifications and, although his calling the evil west Christian, may be forgiven to a certain extent (as the whole Europe was Christian...but then our legal systems are founded on pre-Christian philosophy and laws), he fails to understand what the word nazi means. I come from the country who fought nazism, lost quite a few family members during WWII so his attempts to classify me as a nazist are insulting. Ok, I do tolerate him as he´s a funny little guy, a bit like a three-year-old shouting "I hate you, I hate you" when he has no arguments, that´s why I can´t take him seriously.

Thank you I just get irritated. This is a very personal matter for me, since I have some Jewish roots in my family, and have lost a family member in a concentration camp. Because people don´t realise that I have Jewish family members, I have heard people in The Netherlands made some anti-Jewish remarks around me..... but I have also had the same experience in Turkey! By the way, I have had this experience much more in Turkey then in Holland. So spitting the word nazi on the screen all the time gives me a funny feeling in the stomach. If you take the meaning of nazi as not connected to german national socialism, but something that can occur in other countries as well, then one would have to say that Turkey is also filled with nazi´s. I prefer not to use this meaning. I don´t want to think that in every country I go, I´ll be greeted by a bunch of nazi´s...

to sum up all the christian posts under this thread;

"Turkey is getting more and more muslim, but the christian countries aren`t getting more and more christian and nazist. just because tens of muslims get killed randomly every year in the christian countries doesn`t mean, they are getting more christian. Christian`s jailing, torturing, and genociding muslims doesn`t mean anything in this context either, but Turkey is getting more and more muslim and that is bad."

typical christian nazist rhetoric.

you would call it just an illusion of me, wouldn`t you?

ok, this is the turkishclass and you want to throw everything at muslims, but how about outside of the turkishclass?

I don`t see much talk about the the growing christian extremism and nazism in the christian media. all they talk about is how muslims are animals, and how the christians are right to genocide them.

you heard about the muslim man whose house got bombed by christian nazis this summer in america? you won`t, because the christian nazist media will never talk about it or the countless of other crimes the christian nazis commit.

Total death toll in WW2 was about 95 000 000 people, about 5 000 000 of which were of Jewish descent. Listening to the depth of Jewish propaganda afterwards, one would think only Jews died in the war !

Jews are now busy getting even in Gazza and any objections to this genocide would make one anti-semitic.

hahaha, it`s so funny that you think nazism=hatred against Jews.  no, the self interests of nazis and jews go hand in hand in the 21st century. the new victim of the nazis is muslims.

 I don´t find it funny at all , it is a key part of the history of which I myself have lost many family members ( my fathers side is jewish german) . The way you throw the term around is starting to sicken me and offend as well

hmmm your father is jewish, so there is nothing called christian nazi. excellent reasoning!

 Can you please not put words into my mouth that I have not said..

My father is not jewish I did not say he was, and I did no such reasoning as you seem to think, i was not even on that page .. (you made up your own conclusion and I would expect no less)

My post was not aimed at soley you so why you feel the need to respond I am lost, But it was regarding the over use of the term Nazi without clear understanding of the context it involves. In agreement with Barba_mama it is not a term to throw around to the simple bigots ...

 Yes I don´t need to be reminded , Nick Griffin did that on Thursday night!  Oh what a gem he is, I think I will join his party just to make Tami happy!

btw, don´t forget the BNP were the National Front before so we have always been a VERY Nazi Christian country.......... River of Blood, Braford riots and all that, with that I conclude that Tami is right on every front!!! 

I`m always right! thanks for confirming this once again.

 Of course you are dear boy, I bet you are teachers pet and always top of the class!

I bet you weren`t so bright as a student.

 You are right again!  I left school at 16 because I had to WORK! You know what that is??

So there we go - Tami apparently objects to the term Muslim terrorists and decided to apply the term nazism to all Europeans/Americans

Ok, let´s see:

Muslim terrorist describes a person who resorts to acts of terror in the name of Allah - logically, the suicide bombers in Europe and the UK fit this definition, and so do all people who consider killing in the name of Allah

Christian nazi would have to be a Christian who believes in his race being superior to others (in Nazi Germany the Germanic race was considered superior to, say, Slavonic one, but we may take that neo-nazists evolved and simply believe that the white race is superior to others), being against democracy but  in favour of totalitarian regime, not to mention antisemitism. Hence it´s pretty hard to call all Europeans or even Americans Christian nazists as:

1. they´re pro democracy and against totalitarism

2. they prosecute racism

3. they prosecute antisemitism or any form of ethnical/racial/national discimination

This does not mean of course there are no Christian nazists in the evil west - there are organisations that call themselves neo-nazist and some of these are Christian (although most tend to be neo-pagan). The same way not all people from the east are Muslim terrorists - only those responsible for terrorist activity in the name of their idea of God. It is as simple as that.

If Tami is to continue arguing that the EU&American troops in the east are on a crusade and this makes them Christian nazists, he´s obviously and repeatedly wrong. It´s a war without the religious background and it´s not a nazi war as it was aimed at doing away with a totalitarian system and introducing democracy. Of course, it would be naive to say that it´s a war for a good cause and we know the big ideas politicians are feeding us with are just slogans, nobody is stupid enough to believe that democracy is the reason of this war. It´s more like a side-effect...

Tami, you seem very happy to have insulted people by calling them nazists, but what you don´t see is that you´re misusing this term. You should be aware that in Europe the term nazism brings Nazi Germany conotations, and most of us, Europeans, stem from families who were hit by the WWII. The thing is you apparently know nothing about nazism, how it hurt many different nations that you now wrongly call nazi. Trust me, as soon as self-declared Christians start terrorist attacks in the east, you´ll be free to call them terrorists. Still, it won´t make them nazists. You should learn the difference between war and terrorism, catch up on what makes a nazi, and stop posting nonsense ridiculing yourself

Being closer to islamic countries doesnt mean turkey will be like them. Of course Turkey will improve relationships with islamic countries and others in Asia or Africa. To me, waiting in front of EU Gate will not give anything to Turkey, this will be just a sparing time for waiting when EU countries are doing Economical cooperations. EU membership is a DREAM for turkey and they may accept us when they need, but when they really need without any rights as other memebers.

it s meaningful that Europeans think Turkey is being closer to islamic countris, but western countries have economical relations more than us with them. in my opinion turkey has to change its face to east not west for improving economy.

 That´s right. nice post.

does fighting in forums make you people HAPPY?  wouldn´t it be better to go back to LESSONS? i am still waiting for new exercises, coz all i found here - is finished...what ever makes you sleep at night..........but i would prefer learning the language, not how to offend each other...  ...make peace, not war? don´t worry, be happy? why is six afraid of seven...? - coz seven ate nine......................? do you people NEED to fight with each other? 

Rocco - your input into the discussion was worth as much as you nick seems every time you have nothing to say, you resort to getting personal. How low is that?

Janissary - that´s a fair point, it´s pretty hard not to agree with it. It usually annoys me when people think of Turkey as an Islamic state, the part I have seen (just the western part) was very European, I can´t speak for the east as I haven´t been there.

Yakamozzz - enjoy your language forum

what language forum? all smart people are busy here - throwing the first stone...and in "language forums" there are mostly only some pathetic requests for "dudu"-translations, all the exercises on the site are finished for me and i don´t see anybody creating new ones...what language forum? 

Yakamozz - it´s a free public forum where people do what they like - some like debating, other having fun, studying or doing the dudu translations going over "ozledim seni, seviyom seni, para bana yol" thing over and over again. You can´t blame people for being involved in debates rather than discussing the language.

and who was blaming anobody? just - it´s all getting booooooriiiiiiiing, that´s all. and about a month ago i searched through all my account and didn´t even find any options for deleting my account. i´m bored. no exercises here left. that´s all.

My mother has brought me up with the following reasoning...

Treat others like you want to be treated.

If you say Christian Nazi´s, then you should not complain when people say Muslim terrorist. When you say very HURTFULL things, that are simply untrue, about nazi´s en jews walking hand in hand, then never DARE to complain when people think of crazy ideas about muslims wanting to destroy the world or something... check the translation part of this forum. Somewhere you will find the line, you reap what you sow...

So Nazis were terrible guys !

Good Jews however, should not trust Christians either. An amazing number of Christians seem to think  that hollocaust was a lie cooked up by Jews themselves.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=hollocoust+lie&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35  

On the other hand, what´s happening in Gazza today is no lie. The whole town is now turned into one big concentration camp !

In my opinion it is a kind of propaganda that implies Turkey being torn between West and East,not for geographical but more strategic and political reasons.Turkey has done a lot of progress in her dream of EU accession ,and in being secular Muslim democracy since the republic was founded.

She is a crucial,necessary ally for the West and it may cause some worries and doubts what will happen if such an ally can be lost.

Turkish  constant economic growth ranks her 41 on the list of fast growing economies in the world according to Financial News,she appears also one of the best countries to invest.The country gives wonderful opportunities  not only for  western economists.

The only thing  that bothers West is her location,the rest seems irrevelant.Of course West will criticize her for many things delaying accession,don´t you think it is a political game which resembles I" would love but I am so scared"attitude,knowing how much Turkey is concerned and eager to join EU.But it would be silly mistake to lose Turkey in political game where only influence counts.On the other hand,it is comprehensible that Turkey faces East as well,at least for me,it is normal and crucial that the country should maintain good relationship with its  eastern neighbours or eastern world.

Does it make her torn?

To my mind it only indicates  her prudence and forethought.

 You should read and devour the story Anne Frank urgently AlphaF,  after then i guess you will begin to think like "how can those victims of WWII turned into oppressors?" Impossible, matter of education(or propogand) which we Turks are lacking of , EU should help us to solve this issue as soon as possible anyhow our slave government begging at the door of EU then noone will be antisemitic, so we can easily digest the ridiculous excuses of zionists ...

 This is the question most of my compatriots ask although most are blamed by others for antisemitism forgetting that my country was the only country in which for helping Jews extermination of whole families and relatives was done.Foreigners remember Jedwabne at the same time forgetting Irena Sendlerowa  and thousands of others who risked their lives in order to help.

Holocaust is undeniable fact,sad is that the nation experiencing  it in the past turns to be an oppressor.

I see your point armegon in irony about EU help but what can EU do being dependent ?

Just to clarify my point birdy, jews were labelled as "eternal victim" by again jewish propogand after WWII especially in european countries, so feeling guilt towards the Holocaust , west keep its silence when they see the crimes of Israel. Because they have been programmed to have emphaty with jewish people and have been programmed to support them. This is the feeling that we dont have so we can be freely antizionist

Firstly, being a Jew doesn´t mean you´re a zionist. Most people just want to have a peaceful home country, without building crazy walls and stuff like that.

Secondly, I think people like to over simplify things. Saying "East" and "West" like they´re two big blocks. If you look into Europe and the U.S. you´ll see a wide variaty of cultures and beliefs. If you look into the East you´ll also see that all "Eastern" people are the same, talk the same, believe the same. Turkey and Poland are culturaly WAY more alike then Poland and Sweden; and Turkey and Portugal are more alike then Portugal and The Netherlands. I don´t think Turkey is torn between East and West, culturally speaking, since I don´t think there truly is an East and West, but I do think the influence of Islam in Turkey is changing, as far as I can see it as a frequent flyer

True, but being a Sionist, almost definitely makes you a Jew. Must be genetically contagious

FYI, In fact among the countries you mentioned Turkey and Poland ARE EXTREMELY SIMILAR culturally and mentally,even in the others attitude that Poland is torn between West and East

all because of damn English antropologists,they invented the term"orientalism"searching for differences

You are getting very close to the truth birdy.....I am proud of you !

Read this book " The Clash of Civilizations and the Remarking of World Order" by Samuel P.Huntington.

You shall see the historic truth.

According to this scientific study, the world is being ruled by some economical and political focuses and the economical and political equilibriums  world-wide are being established by them.

According to this author it is a new configuration and policy- making created after world war I and II by them.

About Christian Nazists :  Especially British People know the truth very much about  Christian Nazists and Nazists activities and attacks during the World War II.

Exactly, and since a few years Poland is part of the EU. It shows people how internally variated the EU is, so we can´t say Turkey is becoming more European or something like that. There isn´t such a thing! 

I do not know any Christians who believe the holocaust did not happen

My post provides the link that can allow you to steal a peek at their work.

I am afraid I can not help you, if you insist that I arrange a personal social introduction for you.

Huntington´s discourse on "" Clashes between civilisations " is long out now.

Nowadays, similar worthy philisophers are working on a new "in"  theory called  "Clashes within civilisations".

 I will decline your offer of help, but thanks anyway.

 Nick Griffin but only slyly denies it..............  (he is the BNP leader in the UK Christine just in case you are unaware, he rubs shoulders with Klu Klux Klan)

 He was great on TV the other day:-

"Griffin did not challenge the Dimbleby quotes but denied a quote in the Daily Mail that he had said that black people walked like monkeys. He then struggled as a young Jewish man wearing a skullcap challenged him to explain why he had likened the "orthodox opinion" that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust to the old "orthodox opinion" that the earth was flat.

Griffin was jeered as he struggled to explain his stance on the Holocaust. "I cannot explain why I used to say those things," he said as he blamed his inability to spell out his thinking on the threat of being deported under the European arrest warrant to France and Germany where Holocaust denial is illegal.

Griffin said he now accepted that Jews were murdered after hearing British radio intercepts of German transmissions which showed there had been a mass murder of Jews on the eastern front. "What about Auschwitz," Straw asked of the extermination camp in Nazi-occupied Poland. "You don´t need a subsequent radio intercept to find out that people were gassed at Auschwitz."

The justice secretary dubbed Griffinthe Dr Strangelove of British politics — referring to the German scientist, played by Peter Sellers, who keeps referring to the US president as Mein Fuhrer.

A British Asian man was clapped when he accused Griffin of wanting to hound him out of Britain. "You´d be surprised how many people would have a whip-round to buy you a ticket and your supporters to go to the South Pole. It is a colourless landscape that will suit you fine."

In a sign of the BBC´s determination to put pressure on Griffin, Dimbleby asked why he had met Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke. Griffin said Duke was a non-violent figure, prompting laughter."

Oh dear God save us from this man!

 He made me cringe at how intellectually inept he is!  Loved Bonnie Greer and how she sat with her back to him..... and she cringed when he tried to touch her

 He is playing a dangerous game though.  We all know what his REAL views are, but to try and groom himself and become more mainstream and popular, he is watering his views down.  Unfortunately there are a few gullible people out there who will believe every word he says....

 Oh right, Nick Griffin, for a moment I wondered who you were ferring too!

You mean like....Tami coming back as "I Love USA" or thehandsom coming back as "theNationalist"? 

Hmmm...interesting thread. Roswitha does it again..

I do think it is interesting to look at this:

Angela Dorothea Merkel born Angela Dorothea Kasner, 17 July 1954) is the current Chancellor of Germany. Merkel, elected to the German Parliament from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, has been the chairwoman of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) since 10 April 2000, and Chairwoman of the CDU-CSU parliamentary party group from 2002 to 2005. She leads a grand coalition with the Christian Social Union (CSU), its Bavarian sister party, and the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD), formed after the 2005 federal election on 22 November 2005.

I am not in any way indicating anything other than the fact that the term Christian figures prominantly, but could one imagine the furor that would ensue if the word Islamic were inserted where Christian now is?

 yes I do know who Nick Griffin and I  know  he believes  the holocaust did not happen and again yes I know he rubs shoulders with the Klu Klux Klan. What i should have said was I PERSONALLY do not know any Christians who do not believe the holocaust happened.   

Sorry I thought you were from America and assumed you would not have heard of him..... after all he of little importance

Probably the furor would be no bigger than in case of a Christian party having majority of seats in the Turkish Parliament

Besides, I thought we already established what Christian countries mean. Still, it doesn´t explain the Nazi part of Tami´s definition of the evil west

That is a very improbable possibility.

The days when we will see an Islamic Justice & Development Party in Germany however,  are very near..We shall all have a ball then !

No problem.