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Multilingualism
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1.       juliacernat
424 posts
 23 Feb 2007 Fri 07:42 pm

Each year, thousands of European companies lose business and miss out on contracts as a result of their lack of language skills, according to a study carried out for the European Commission during 2006 by CILT, the UK National Centre for Languages, published today. The findings suggest that there is enormous potential for small businesses in Europe to increase their total exports if they invest more in languages and develop coherent language strategies. Recent research shows that companies that enhance their language skills can exploit better the business opportunities in the EU’s internal market, which, with nearly half a billion people, is the world’s largest.

“Far from being an unwelcome cost to doing business", European Commissioner for Multilingualism, Leonard Orban, said, "investing in language skills can dramatically improve a company’s business opportunities. I plan to place multilingualism at the heart of the Lisbon strategy for more growth and jobs.”

for more you can visit: http://ec.europa.eu/education/policies/lang/key/studies_en.html

2.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 24 Feb 2007 Sat 02:16 am

Quoting juliacernat:

Each year, thousands of European companies lose business and miss out on contracts as a result of their lack of language skills, according to a study carried out for the European Commission during 2006 by CILT, the UK National Centre for Languages, published today. The findings suggest that there is enormous potential for small businesses in Europe to increase their total exports if they invest more in languages and develop coherent language strategies. Recent research shows that companies that enhance their language skills can exploit better the business opportunities in the EU’s internal market, which, with nearly half a billion people, is the world’s largest.

“Far from being an unwelcome cost to doing business", European Commissioner for Multilingualism, Leonard Orban, said, "investing in language skills can dramatically improve a company’s business opportunities. I plan to place multilingualism at the heart of the Lisbon strategy for more growth and jobs.”

for more you can visit: http://ec.europa.eu/education/policies/lang/key/studies_en.html



i wonder if that differes depending on which european country you are from..usually i find that a lot of european citizens from countries other than the united kingdom have very good lingistic skills, at least english ones.

3.       kai
0 posts
 24 Feb 2007 Sat 02:21 am

Quoting robyn :

Quoting juliacernat:

Each year, thousands of European companies lose business and miss out on contracts as a result of their lack of language skills, according to a study carried out for the European Commission during 2006 by CILT, the UK National Centre for Languages, published today. The findings suggest that there is enormous potential for small businesses in Europe to increase their total exports if they invest more in languages and develop coherent language strategies. Recent research shows that companies that enhance their language skills can exploit better the business opportunities in the EU’s internal market, which, with nearly half a billion people, is the world’s largest.

“Far from being an unwelcome cost to doing business", European Commissioner for Multilingualism, Leonard Orban, said, "investing in language skills can dramatically improve a company’s business opportunities. I plan to place multilingualism at the heart of the Lisbon strategy for more growth and jobs.”

for more you can visit: http://ec.europa.eu/education/policies/lang/key/studies_en.html



i wonder if that differes depending on which european country you are from..usually i find that a lot of european citizens from countries other than the united kingdom have very good lingistic skills, at least english ones.



Same here....at my doctors surgery, they have a machine you can book yourself into in 6-8 different languages including Türkçe!
Also at my hospital they have translators for over 10 different languages...but this time Türkçe wasn't one of them. It was mainly Europian countries.

4.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 24 Feb 2007 Sat 03:00 am

Quoting robyn :

other than the united kingdom



I am with you! I think the UK along with the USA will always remain the only monolingual geography!

lol

5.       Gulzy
13 posts
 24 Feb 2007 Sat 05:21 am

oh well, people from bilingual countries have a greater advantage, esp. if those two languages are from different language families/groups, for instance, one of my mother tongues is a slavic and another is turkic. i find it easier to learn more similar languages, except chinese, which i'm trying to learn now

6.       Capoeira
575 posts
 24 Feb 2007 Sat 06:33 am

Quoting AllTooHuman:

Quoting robyn :

other than the united kingdom



I am with you! I think the UK along with the USA will always remain the only monolingual geography!

lol


How is the US monolingual? There are more speakers of Spanish here than the entire population in Spain + Cuba + Mexico City combined! Plus, the other immigrants that come and maintain their native languages. Yes, sadly, many US citizens would prefer it to be an English monolingual society. However, that is simply not the reality. Go to Miami, Los Angeles, New York or Dallas and you will hear every language being spoken daily and fluently!

7.       kai
0 posts
 24 Feb 2007 Sat 09:21 pm

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting AllTooHuman:

Quoting robyn :

other than the united kingdom



I am with you! I think the UK along with the USA will always remain the only monolingual geography!

lol


How is the US monolingual? There are more speakers of Spanish here than the entire population in Spain + Cuba + Mexico City combined! Plus, the other immigrants that come and maintain their native languages. Yes, sadly, many US citizens would prefer it to be an English monolingual society. However, that is simply not the reality. Go to Miami, Los Angeles, New York or Dallas and you will hear every language being spoken daily and fluently!



+1 Ameria, New York holds many languages. It's also like that in Lodon....you get on the train and get off main stations and all around you are speaking in all different languages/ I love it!

8.       libralady
5152 posts
 24 Feb 2007 Sat 11:55 pm

What AllTooHuman is getting as is as individuals they are monolingual, in general, not as a nation.. The UK has many different languages spoken too, but normally only one language per person!! I know French, Spanish and Italian as well as Egnlish but I would never claim that I can speak them, until I am fluent and can be clearly understood in those countries.

9.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 12:02 am

Quoting libralady:

What AllTooHuman is getting as is as individuals they are monolingual, in general, not as a nation..



The very other way around, sadly! I wasn't referring to individuals, but nations. Needless to say, there can be and in fact are a great deal of people using more than one language in those nations.

Whatever!

10.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 12:19 am

Quoting libralady:

I know French, Spanish and Italian as well as Egnlish but I would never claim that I can speak them, until I am fluent and can be clearly understood in those countries.



By the way, I must say I envy of you in this respect!

11.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 12:21 am

Regardless of if it is individual or a nation. The fact remains the same, the US cannot say that it has 1 official language. The citizenship of the US includes 50-60 million Spanish speaking population. There is a projected 57% growth rate of this population in the next 20 years. Some states today have as many as 45% of its population speaking Spanish as the primary language in the home. Indeed, Spanish cannot even be considered a "foreign" language here. There is no move by these Spanish speakers to give up their language. The 3rd and 4th generation are continuing to speak Spanish and pass it along to their children. While the typical image of an "American" is one of English only...this is not an updated image of an American today. Therefore we cannot consider the US or its citizens monolingual. We are not. The american latino population easily destroys this myth!

I have to add. The Spanish speaking populations is learning English at the same vigorous rate as other immigrants groups to the U.S. But unlike other immigrants, they desire to maintain their own language. Many complain that they do not learn English, data does not support that.

12.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 12:26 am

Thanks Capoeira. I found what you wrote above interesting and informative. In Turkey, there are also few other languages spoken by considerably people; but the official language and its number remains the same: one and Turkish. I think this case, as far as I understand from your post, applies to the USA as well.

13.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 12:32 am

Quoting AllTooHuman:

Thanks Capoeira. I found what you wrote above interesting and informative. In Turkey, there are also few other languages spoken by considerably people; but the official language and its number remains the same: one and Turkish. I think this case, as far as I understand from your post, applies to the USA as well.



The US has never voted on one official language! You will not find legislation on the national level with language that explicitly states that English is the official language.

14.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 01:47 am

Quoting Capoeira:

The US has never voted on one official language! You will not find legislation on the national level with language that explicitly states that English is the official language.



I don't think legislation and declaration that English is the official language in the USA, is compulsory, or necessary, to accept it so. Maybe it is so clear that they have never thought such a legislation about the language is necessary. I would prefer, for example, to look at the traffic signs or observe the courts rather than the laws, to find out and be sure about the official language(s). If the traffic signs there are in Spanish along with English and if you can swear or defend yourself, at the courts, in and with Spanish as well as English, then I would say Spanish is the other official language.

15.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 03:26 am

Quoting AllTooHuman:

Quoting Capoeira:

The US has never voted on one official language! You will not find legislation on the national level with language that explicitly states that English is the official language.



I don't think legislation and declaration that English is the official language in the USA, is compulsory, or necessary, to accept it so. Maybe it is so clear that they have never thought such a legislation about the language is necessary. I would prefer, for example, to look at the traffic signs or observe the courts rather than the laws, to find out and be sure about the official language(s). If the traffic signs there are in Spanish along with English and if you can swear or defend yourself, at the courts, in and with Spanish as well as English, then I would say Spanish is the other official language.



key word "official". there is no "official" language here. Maybe our forefathers understood that we were an immigrant nation while signing the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and never specifically stated 'English' as an official language. There are political groups that have tried unsuccessfully to lobby for an 'English only' laws and legislation at the national level.

Also courts offer court appointed translators. And there are Spanish speaking court judges that will hear arguments and render a verdict all in Spanish. Such judges are soo popular that they even have their own T.V. shows! My friend, you are operating on a stereotype of what an 'american' and how we operate. Most jobs now a days require bilingual skills which for now the bilingual meaning Spanish and English. Please come and visit then you will see. It is hard to accept this change not only for you but many others. 'Old americana' is dead! And I for one am ever sooooooo grateful!

16.       qdemir
813 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 10:58 am

17.       qdemir
813 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 11:07 am

18.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 12:02 pm

Here are a few names just to get you started! You just didn't realize that they are United State Citizens some born in other countries, immigrating here,others born here and they speak Spanish.

1. Jennifer Lopez - actress, singer
2. Cesar Chavez- founder of the United Farm Workers Association
3. Carlos Santana - Musician
4. Geraldo Rivera - Journalist
5. Cristina Aguilera - Singer
6. Selena- Singer
7. Henry Cisneros-politician
8. James Olmos -actor
9. Dolores Huerta- Now serves as board of Regents U.C. Berkeley
10. Desi Arnez -Actor
11. Antonio Villaraigosa- Mayor of Los Angeles
12. Antonia Novello - Former U.S. Attorney General

I could name many more...and the United States of America is the perfect name...'give me your tired and poor, your hungered masses waiting to be free!' We are and will always be an immigrant nation no matter how many people object!

19.       qdemir
813 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 01:06 pm

20.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 04:40 pm

Quoting qdemir:

12 people out of 50 million. Not too bad!!!

How do you succeed in living on a land without having any feeling of belonging? Enyoy the opportunities only she provides you, but refuse to be a part of her. Nice blending!

Quote:



First you claim 'ignorance' of the knowledge of any U.S. citizen that speaks Spanish. Now you suddenly, after reading 12 names, you are acutely knowledgeable about how Latinos operate without feeling as if they belong or their refusal to be a part of the U.S. society. Also you base your arguments on immigrants living in Turkey. Then draw conclusions of ability to suceed or not in a foreign land. There are many great books out there and recent documentaries regarding the Latino immigrant and the Latino U.S. citizen. I won't name a book as it will be mocked as just 'one' out of the possibly trillions of books that have been written in our world. Good luck in doing your own research regarding a topic that you clearly know nothing about. After doing that I'll be more than glad to field a valid conversation with you on this topic.

21.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 04:46 pm

Dear Capoeira,

I was not referring to offering translators at courts, which is still the very evidence that only one language, English, is official. Saddam, for example, was also presented a translator, but we even don't have a doubt of whether Arabic is spoken widely in the USA. Well.. Maybe Elisa or someone from Canada would enlighten me, but I guess in Belgium, for example, you would be able to defend yourself in Dutch or French, depending on your mood at the time, without need a translator, since the judges as well as the Belgium people are bilingual.

I think I get your point, and find you quite right; but I also think Spanish has no chance, sorry, to be regarded as equal (or whatever you wish it to be) with English, particularly while English is spoken world wide. This is not a matter of the amount of Spanish-speaking people, of wishing or demanding it to be accepted as official, or whatever we prefer to name, of whether Spanish is as good and rich as English, but a matter purely of economy. In what language the world economy as well as the USA economy is controlled and leaded, that language is the official language of both the USA and the world- namely not even the British or Canadian English, but American English. You may be given, and in fact you have, freedom to use in the USA all the languages on the earth, but the official, or dominant, or whatever we call, language remains and will always remain the same: American English, unless you market and sell your terrible culture (Hollywood, McDonalds), your so-called technology (Microsoft), law system ('America is the country of freedoms') merchandises (Coca Cola, Apache Helicopters and all other weapons), to the whole world in any other language than American English.

I won't mention here the English language itself is a huge industry, namely money!

22.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 05:01 pm

You missed the part of my post that stated that there are courts where you can argue a case in Spanish...

Regardless...you claimed that the U.S. is a monolingual geography. It is not. Yes, English continues to be the dominant language. I never claimed it wasn't. Which is fine, as this is the U.S. But, your previous post stated that it is a monolingual country NOT that English is dominant. If our presidential candidates when campaining for office speak Spanish to try to woo Spanish speaking voters, if our schools provide bilingual education, Spanish & English, if our courts reder verdicts in Spanish, if you are spoken to in Spanish before you hear English in our major cities, if the majority of all documents have two sides..one in English and the other in Spanish then you must recognize that Spanish is NOT a foreign language here and we are NOT a monolingual society as you claim.

23.       Elisa
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 05:41 pm

Quoting AllTooHuman:

but I guess in Belgium, for example, you would be able to defend yourself in Dutch or French, depending on your mood at the time, without need a translator, since the judges as well as the Belgium people are bilingual.



The situation in Belgium is a bit complicated. We have 3 official languages: Dutch is the official language for the Flemish (Dutch) region, French for the Walloon (French) region, and obviously German for the German region. There's also a small region, a kind of Flemish enclave between Holland and the Walloon provinces. The region belongs to Flanders, but has language facilities for the French-speaking minority overthere.. (did I mention already that our situation is complicated? )
This language situation has its influence on the country's administration, even officials lose track sometimes (eg. official letters written in French when it should have been Dutch, hence invalid..)
We can't use languages as we see fit. I couldn't go to court and say I want to defend myself in German today because I feel like it..

24.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 05:44 pm

Quoting Elisa:

Quoting AllTooHuman:

but I guess in Belgium, for example, you would be able to defend yourself in Dutch or French, depending on your mood at the time, without need a translator, since the judges as well as the Belgium people are bilingual.



The situation in Belgium is a bit complicated. We have 3 official languages: Dutch is the official language for the Flemish (Dutch) region, French for the Walloon (French) region, and obviously German for the German region. There's also a small region, a kind of Flemish enclave between Holland and the Walloon provinces. The region belongs to Flanders, but has language facilities for the French-speaking minority overthere.. (did I mention already that our situation is complicated? )
This language situation has its influence on the country's administration, even officials lose track sometimes (eg. official letters written in French when it should have been Dutch, hence invalid..)
We can't use languages as we see fit. I couldn't go to court and say I want to defend myself in German today because I feel like it..



this will probably go down as one the dumbest things said ever,.but i thought Belgians spoke Belgian..is there not a Belgian language?:-S sorry if it seems a little dumb

25.       Elisa
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 05:48 pm

Quoting robyn :

but i thought Belgians spoke Belgian..is there not a Belgian language?:-S



There is no such thing as a "Belgian language" or "Belgian"...

Quoting robyn :

sorry if it seems a little dumb



it's OK, I won't tell anyone

26.       Trudy
7887 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 05:50 pm

Quoting robyn :

this will probably go down as one the dumbest things said ever,.but i thought Belgians spoke Belgian..is there not a Belgian language?:-S sorry if it seems a little dumb



No, Belgian people speak French or Flemish (and like Elisa said, in a small part German). Spoken it's quite different from Dutch, but written it is the same - and I have to admit Belgian people are better in Dutch, than the Dutch themselves. They almost every year win the Dutch language competition...

27.       qdemir
813 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 05:52 pm

28.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 06:03 pm

Quoting qdemir:

Quoting Capoeira:


First you claim 'ignorance' of the knowledge of any U.S. citizen that speaks Spanish. Now you suddenly, after reading 12 names, you are acutely knowledgeable about how Latinos operate without feeling as if they belong or their refusal to be a part of the U.S. society. Also you base your arguments on immigrants living in Turkey. Then draw conclusions of ability to suceed or not in a foreign land. There are many great books out there and recent documentaries regarding the Latino immigrant and the Latino U.S. citizen. I won't name a book as it will be mocked as just 'one' out of the possibly trillions of books that have been written in our world. Good luck in doing your own research regarding a topic that you clearly know nothing about. After doing that I'll be more than glad to field a valid conversation with you on this topic.



You don't seem so tolerant and open-minded as you are intolerent and narrow-minded, when other people talk about you. Anway I thought as much. You haven't proved me wrong.





I'll wear your adjectives as badges of honor!

29.       qdemir
813 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 06:03 pm

30.       qdemir
813 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 06:06 pm

31.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 06:12 pm

Quoting qdemir:

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting qdemir:

Quoting Capoeira:


First you claim 'ignorance' of the knowledge of any U.S. citizen that speaks Spanish. Now you suddenly, after reading 12 names, you are acutely knowledgeable about how Latinos operate without feeling as if they belong or their refusal to be a part of the U.S. society. Also you base your arguments on immigrants living in Turkey. Then draw conclusions of ability to suceed or not in a foreign land. There are many great books out there and recent documentaries regarding the Latino immigrant and the Latino U.S. citizen. I won't name a book as it will be mocked as just 'one' out of the possibly trillions of books that have been written in our world. Good luck in doing your own research regarding a topic that you clearly know nothing about. After doing that I'll be more than glad to field a valid conversation with you on this topic.



You don't seem so tolerant and open-minded as you are intolerent and narrow-minded, when other people talk about you. Anway I thought as much. You haven't proved me wrong.





I'll wear your adjectives as badges of honor!



Are you sure you managed to get me right?



I understood you perfectly well.

32.       qdemir
813 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 06:22 pm

33.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 10:11 pm

Quoting Elisa:

Quoting robyn :

but i thought Belgians spoke Belgian..is there not a Belgian language?:-S



There is no such thing as a "Belgian language" or "Belgian"...

Quoting robyn :

sorry if it seems a little dumb



it's OK, I won't tell anyone



thanks it must just be what we call it lollolsorry again

34.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 10:12 pm

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting robyn :

this will probably go down as one the dumbest things said ever,.but i thought Belgians spoke Belgian..is there not a Belgian language?:-S sorry if it seems a little dumb



No, Belgian people speak French or Flemish (and like Elisa said, in a small part German). Spoken it's quite different from Dutch, but written it is the same - and I have to admit Belgian people are better in Dutch, than the Dutch themselves. They almost every year win the Dutch language competition...



thanks to you too trudy

35.       Capoeira
575 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 11:01 pm

Quoting qdemir:

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting qdemir:

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting qdemir:

Quoting Capoeira:


First you claim 'ignorance' of the knowledge of any U.S. citizen that speaks Spanish. Now you suddenly, after reading 12 names, you are acutely knowledgeable about how Latinos operate without feeling as if they belong or their refusal to be a part of the U.S. society. Also you base your arguments on immigrants living in Turkey. Then draw conclusions of ability to suceed or not in a foreign land. There are many great books out there and recent documentaries regarding the Latino immigrant and the Latino U.S. citizen. I won't name a book as it will be mocked as just 'one' out of the possibly trillions of books that have been written in our world. Good luck in doing your own research regarding a topic that you clearly know nothing about. After doing that I'll be more than glad to field a valid conversation with you on this topic.



You don't seem so tolerant and open-minded as you are intolerent and narrow-minded, when other people talk about you. Anway I thought as much. You haven't proved me wrong.





I'll wear your adjectives as badges of honor!



Are you sure you managed to get me right?



I understood you perfectly well.



I don't think so.



lol Do you think I should be offended or at least show some sign of being upset/perturbed? I have stated that I would wear them as a badge of honor. Please don't think I don't get your meaning. I do and quite clearly. However, a stranger on the internet with zero knowledge of who I am cannot possibly know what I am like. Therefore, thanks for trying to define/describe me. I am flattered that you took the time to attempt or even contemplate it. Best wishes to you!

36.       Elisa
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 11:24 pm

Quoting Capoeira:

How is the US monolingual?



I guess things got mixed up here. The OP wasn't talking about monolingual countries but about individual people lacking language skills.

37.       libralady
5152 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 11:46 pm

Quoting AllTooHuman:

Quoting libralady:

I know French, Spanish and Italian as well as Egnlish but I would never claim that I can speak them, until I am fluent and can be clearly understood in those countries.



By the way, I must say I envy of you in this respect!



I have read this again and realise how dumb it sounds! Of course, I can hold my own in English

38.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 12:20 am

Capoeira- 50 million or so people, I guess, constitue/form approximately %20 of the whole population in the USA, which is sadly not enough to make/render the English language "dominant", nor is the USA "poly-lingual". Perhaps what I regard as "official", you regard as "dominant", I can't know. Whatever!

And I still back up my former remark- the USA and the UK will remain monolingual, for the very language of their own will sooner or later be, if not by now, virtually the second language of all other countries. This is what I have observed from the way things are going; I may, needles to say, be wrong. But at least this is what I intended to refer to.

39.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 12:27 am

Elisa- when and where did German join in and thus spoil the play? Whereas, nicely I was supporting my argument with only Dutch and French! Now I clearly see the situation there is indeed very complicated. So, let's forget the example Belgium! Thank you for the info anyway.

Well... another one wanted!... this time from Canada!... who will be able tell us in both English and French at this court!

lol

40.       libralady
5152 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 12:27 am

Quoting AllTooHuman:


And I still back up my former remark- the USA and the UK will remain monolingual, for the very language of their own will sooner or later be, if not by now, virtually the second language of all other countries. This is what I have observed from the way things are going; I may, needles to say, be wrong. But at least this is what I intended to refer to.



After my error from earlier, English will always be the official language in UK and USA. UK does not border with any other country, and most countries that have more than one official langauge border another country (or more) or am I digging a hole for AllTooHuman to dump my feeble post into!

41.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 12:29 am

Quoting libralady:

Quoting AllTooHuman:

Quoting libralady:

I know French, Spanish and Italian as well as Egnlish but I would never claim that I can speak them, until I am fluent and can be clearly understood in those countries.



By the way, I must say I envy of you in this respect!



I have read this again and realise how dumb it sounds! Of course, I can hold my own in English



An iota of what you mean to say, I didn't understand!

42.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 01:18 am

Quoting libralady:

Quoting AllTooHuman:


And I still back up my former remark- the USA and the UK will remain monolingual, for the very language of their own will sooner or later be, if not by now, virtually the second language of all other countries. This is what I have observed from the way things are going; I may, needles to say, be wrong. But at least this is what I intended to refer to.



After my error from earlier, English will always be the official language in UK and USA. UK does not border with any other country, and most countries that have more than one official langauge border another country (or more) or am I digging a hole for AllTooHuman to dump my feeble post into!



I am not talking about libralady who can speak French, Spanish, Italian and Capoeira who can speak English and Spanish, since libralady represents under no condition the UK, nor does Capoeira the USA, whether they have a border with other countries via internet or not. I am talking about the countries as a whole. Take Belgium or Canada at this point.

But you sound you got offended libralady, why?

43.       aenigma x
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 01:51 am

I have to agree with you AllTooHuman (shall we both note this in our diaries?).

I can only speak for the English, but I agree that unless multi linguistic skills are forced upon the English (i.e. imigrants learning to speak English as well as their native language) the English are notoriously lazy with learning other languages.

From my experience abroad, I would say that the majority of English believe that if they speak English slightly slower and very LOUDLY (and sometimes with a "foreign" accent) they believe they can be understood anywhere!! lol

This laziness is due to the influence of the USA in Europe (media, films etc.) and the fact that most other countries learn English as their second language in schools. We are too lazy and there is no denying it!!

I defy any English people to disagree

44.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 03:21 am

The key word is not "laziness", but "needless", aenigma! To learn any language as a second language is getting day by day "needless", just like the paragraph below, for you, for your own language is getting day by day spoken by more and more people all over the world.

Period!

(Or, am I supposed to say "Full stop!" lol )

Quoting aenigma x:


From my experience abroad, I would say that the majority of English believe that if they speak English slightly slower and very LOUDLY (and sometimes with a "foreign" accent) they believe they can be understood anywhere!! lol

45.       catwoman
8933 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 04:00 am

Quoting AllTooHuman:

The key word is not "laziness", but "needless", aenigma! To learn any language as a second language is getting day by day "needless", just like the paragraph below, for you, for your own language is getting day by day spoken by more and more people all over the world.
Period!



I'm thinking... hmmm... how can I say this while looking like I absolutely don't agree with Alltoohuman... Ok, here it goes: I think that Americans and UK'ans are very lazy, yes - lazy, not needless (for example it's a requirement in the US to take at least a year of a foreign language); however the rest of the world is not very hardworking either, they just HAVE TO learn English if they want to get anywhere these days , if they didn't have to, they sure wouldn't - such a lazy human species we are .

46.       aenigma x
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 09:38 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AllTooHuman:

The key word is not "laziness", but "needless", aenigma! To learn any language as a second language is getting day by day "needless", just like the paragraph below, for you, for your own language is getting day by day spoken by more and more people all over the world.
Period!



I'm thinking... hmmm... how can I say this while looking like I absolutely don't agree with Alltoohuman... Ok, here it goes: I think that Americans and UK'ans are very lazy, yes - lazy, not needless (for example it's a requirement in the US to take at least a year of a foreign language); however the rest of the world is not very hardworking either, they just HAVE TO learn English if they want to get anywhere these days , if they didn't have to, they sure wouldn't - such a lazy human species we are .



+1 You are right!

47.       sophie
2712 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 11:57 am

Quoting catwoman:


however the rest of the world is not very hardworking either, they just HAVE TO learn English if they want to get anywhere these days , if they didn't have to, they sure wouldn't - such a lazy human species we are .



In Greece, English is being taught even in the nursery schools. Officially, in public schools, kids start learning English from the 3rd grade and in the 5th grade they start learning a second one, which is either French or German (which makes two compulsory foreign languages at the age of 10 ). At the same time, Italian and Spanish are languages that kids try to learn, as soon as they enter high school, through private institutes. So, "lazy" is not the word for the Greek kids.

48.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 02:11 pm

Quoting AllTooHuman:

"needless", just like the paragraph below



Quoting catwoman:


I'm thinking... hmmm... how can I say this while looking like I absolutely don't agree with Alltoohuman... Ok, here it goes: I think that Americans and UK'ans are very lazy, yes - lazy, not needless (for example it's a requirement in the US to take at least a year of a foreign language); however the rest of the world is not very hardworking either, they just HAVE TO learn English if they want to get anywhere these days , if they didn't have to, they sure wouldn't - such a lazy human species we are .



lol

49.       catwoman
8933 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 04:36 pm

Quoting sophie:

In Greece, English is being taught even in the nursery schools. Officially, in public schools, kids start learning English from the 3rd grade and in the 5th grade they start learning a second one, which is either French or German (which makes two compulsory foreign languages at the age of 10 ). At the same time, Italian and Spanish are languages that kids try to learn, as soon as they enter high school, through private institutes. So, "lazy" is not the word for the Greek kids.



Sophie, I'm not talking about laziness per se, but about laziness in the deeper sense of it. European/Asian/African kids learn English and other foreign languages because it's good if not necessary for them to do so and not out of love for learning. For example why is it that kids these days learn English, Spanish, German... and not Turkish, Swahili or even Russian... etc? This learning is done with the goal of benefiting from it by getting better jobs and more money in the future. And the reality is that knowing at least English is a must these days, I'm sure many people would love not to have to learn it. Of course there are exceptions to this, however, they don't change the overall situation.
I also wanted to add that in the literal meaning of "laziness" I don't think Brits are lazy either and Americans are one of the most hardworking people I've seen.

50.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:04 pm

Quoting sophie:

Quoting catwoman:


however the rest of the world is not very hardworking either, they just HAVE TO learn English if they want to get anywhere these days , if they didn't have to, they sure wouldn't - such a lazy human species we are .



In Greece, English is being taught even in the nursery schools. Officially, in public schools, kids start learning English from the 3rd grade and in the 5th grade they start learning a second one, which is either French or German (which makes two compulsory foreign languages at the age of 10 ). At the same time, Italian and Spanish are languages that kids try to learn, as soon as they enter high school, through private institutes. So, "lazy" is not the word for the Greek kids.



i wish languages were taught earlier in english school.they are not even started until secondary(high school) age and even then the parts of the language that you learn is just textbook, you can't really relate it to many situations or use it regularly in real contexts...

51.       qdemir
813 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:12 pm

Is there anybody on here learning a foreign language, for s/he thinks it is a labour of love? Do you think it is worth spending your time, money and making a concerted effort?

52.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:27 pm

Quoting catwoman:


European/Asian/African kids learn English and other foreign languages because it's good if not necessary for them to do so and not out of love for learning. For example why is it that kids these days learn English, Spanish, German... and not Turkish, Swahili or even Russian... etc? This learning is done with the goal of benefiting from it by getting better jobs and more money in the future. And the reality is that knowing at least English is a must these days, I'm sure many people would love not to have to learn it. (...) I don't think Brits are lazy either and Americans are one of the most hardworking people I've seen.



Damn! I hate these moments, but...but I have to agree with you. Well-said!

Again, to learn (or not to learn) a foreign language, in our case English, is purely a matter of economy, and thus almost compulsory.

53.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:31 pm

Quoting qdemir:

Is there anybody on here learning a foreign language, for s/he thinks it is a labour of love? Do you think it is worth spending your time, money and concerted effort?



For my part I would be able to say it is a labour of love, if I didn't try to learn English mainly for the sake(!) of money. But still I think I will one day say it is so, after learning French.

54.       reBooped
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:41 pm

Quote Robyn.... wish languages were taught earlier in english school.they are not even started until secondary(high school) age ...


not so, I was taught french from the age of 5...

55.       nastica
201 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:43 pm

Quoting qdemir:

Is there anybody on here learning a foreign language, for s/he thinks it is a labour of love? Do you think it is worth spending your time, money and making a concerted effort?


Yes... yes... all for love

56.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:44 pm

Quoting reBooped:

Quote Robyn.... wish languages were taught earlier in english school.they are not even started until secondary(high school) age ...


not so, I was taught french from the age of 5...



well its not the case in essex schools.

57.       sophie
2712 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:53 pm

Quoting catwoman:


Sophie, I'm not talking about laziness per se, but about laziness in the deeper sense of it. European/Asian/African kids learn English and other foreign languages because it's good if not necessary for them to do so and not out of love for learning. For example why is it that kids these days learn English, Spanish, German... and not Turkish, Swahili or even Russian... etc? This learning is done with the goal of benefiting from it by getting better jobs and more money in the future. And the reality is that knowing at least English is a must these days, I'm sure many people would love not to have to learn it. Of course there are exceptions to this, however, they don't change the overall situation.



I understood very well what you were saying. I was pointing out though, that you can never call someone lazy, with the deeper or the shallow sense of it, when he starts learning 2 foreign languages, at the age of 8 and 10. And of course, no one will start with Swahili, simply because most people's first aim is to FIRST take care of their business career. It's normal to start with the languages that will help you achieve your professional goals. And then, if you have time and courage, to continue with other ones.

Learning a language just for pleasure, is a luxury that usually adults with a secure job and a settled life can have. I was studying Turkish in my spare time, because I had a job waiting for me every morning and no professional anxieties. So instead of reading magazines, I tried to read something useful. But if anyone would try to convince me to study them 15 years ago, when I was trying to find time to catch my breath, between my studies, my other activities, etc, i d ask them to drop dead!!!

The english and the american kids are just luckier. Because they already know the language which is needed about almost anything. I don't think that they are lazy. They just don't NEED to learn another language to survive professionaly.

(btw, Turkish was the language which was proposed as a compulsory foreign language for the kids in the 5th grade. But it was rejected, thanks to some politicians' nationalism and narrow mindness)

58.       catwoman
8933 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 05:58 pm

Ok, you're right. Maybe "laziness" was not the best word to describe it (although we all are lazy creatures and do only what is necessary), but I'm glad you got the point .

59.       Trudy
7887 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 06:45 pm

Quoting qdemir:

Is there anybody on here learning a foreign language, for s/he thinks it is a labour of love? Do you think it is worth spending your time, money and making a concerted effort?



Three years ago I started taking lessons in Japanese and now I am taking lessons in Turkish. Both not for money, love or business but just because I want to be able to help myself when I'm visiting a country (have been to Japan twice, hopefully in 2008 third time and to Turkey this summer will be my sixth visit.) Both languages I just understand enough words / sentences to travel around, that's all I need.

60.       juliacernat
424 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 10:00 pm

Quoting sophie:



In Greece, English is being taught even in the nursery schools. Officially, in public schools, kids start learning English from the 3rd grade and in the 5th grade they start learning a second one, which is either French or German (which makes two compulsory foreign languages at the age of 10 ). At the same time, Italian and Spanish are languages that kids try to learn, as soon as they enter high school, through private institutes. So, "lazy" is not the word for the Greek kids.



Quite the same situation in Romania: pupils start learning a foreign language (English, French, German or Spanish) from kindergarten.In the 4th grade (age 11) they start learning the second one, the aim being to pass the Cambridge, DALF or their Spanish, German or Italian equivalents in advance levels when they graduade highschool (age 18). The third foreign language is taught at the University. Studies on the so called "rare" foreign languages (eg Japanese, Chinese, Finnish, Portuguese, Turkish, Arabic, etc)are also for the university level.

A certificate in advanced English/French/German/Spanish is definitely a criterion for selection here; usually Enghlish is considered a must, the second foreign language is viewed as highly desirable and the third foreign language- well...this makes the difference

As for learning a foreign language for the sake of learning itself, I have met such characters (most of them driven by the desire to read Plato,Kant or Dostoievski in the language these authors wrote). I am among the "lucky few" studying Turkish as a "labour of love" and ... Arabic is the next on my list- for the same reason

61.       kai
0 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 10:57 pm

I grew up in an area where they didn't teach languages until high school either and when I moved and went to high school most of my new friends were taught french from a young age becuase they were from an area that taught it at a young age.

Half of my high school was taught German and Spanish and the other half (me included) was taught German and French. I wasn't very good at French, ecpecially with my friends already ahead of me. Thankfully I made up for it in German, with the help of my German nanny
I still wish I was taught Spanish instead of French because spending a long period of time out in Spain (Costa Del Sol) when I was younger (couple of years before I started high school) helped me to be ahead of most people in that but I wasn't picked to do it but now I am making up for it by studying it now.

Having half my family being Turkish I used to speak a little when I was around 5/6 to my favourite uncle (who I have lost contact with now) as he used to teach me and loved it, and laughed when I couldn't pronounce some words right lol.

Anyway I grew out of it and spoke to him in English all the time after and forgotten what I learnt which is a shame and then I went to Turkey last year and I just wanted to learn it again for the sake of it but ended up giving up ....well, slowly giving up lol

At the moment I am concentrating mostly on Spanish and hope to become fluent in it as I hope to do a college course in it. Also, better because I have my own private tutor
Then I hope to learn Arabic, though it will be a long shot because of its difficulty, so I know that will take a lot of studying to do. A friend of mine has also offered to help with Arabic when I begin learning which is helpful.

At the college I will be attending to this year they teach soooooo many languages....chinese, japanese, russian, sign language (I know a little of due to a deaf friend), spanish, french, German, Polish etc but the two languages I wanted to go into (Arabic and Turksih) they didn't teach and the closest school they did teach it was in the central of London and 2 hours away. I am tempted but wont apply until I finish my other courses. So a couple of years at least yet

62.       libralady
5152 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 11:16 pm

Quoting robyn :

Quoting reBooped:

Quote Robyn.... wish languages were taught earlier in english school.they are not even started until secondary(high school) age ...


not so, I was taught french from the age of 5...



well its not the case in essex schools.



Or Cambridgeshire or Norfolk - maybe in private schools, but definitely not in bog standard primary schools. I learnt Spanish for one year age 11 - 12 and French from 13 - 15 that is it! The rest I have taught myself.

63.       libralady
5152 posts
 26 Feb 2007 Mon 11:19 pm

Quoting kai:

I grew up in an area where they didn't teach languages until high school either and when I moved and went to high school most of my new friends were taught french from a young age becuase they were from an area that taught it at a young age.

Half of my high school was taught German and Spanish and the other half (me included) was taught German and French. I wasn't very good at French, ecpecially with my friends already ahead of me. Thankfully I made up for it in German, with the help of my German nanny
I still wish I was taught Spanish instead of French because spending a long period of time out in Spain (Costa Del Sol) when I was younger (couple of years before I started high school) helped me to be ahead of most people in that but I wasn't picked to do it but now I am making up for it by studying it now.

Having half my family being Turkish I used to speak a little when I was around 5/6 to my favourite uncle (who I have lost contact with now) as he used to teach me and loved it, and laughed when I couldn't pronounce some words right lol.

Anyway I grew out of it and spoke to him in English all the time after and forgotten what I learnt which is a shame and then I went to Turkey last year and I just wanted to learn it again for the sake of it but ended up giving up ....well, slowly giving up lol

At the moment I am concentrating mostly on Spanish and hope to become fluent in it as I hope to do a college course in it. Also, better because I have my own private tutor
Then I hope to learn Arabic, though it will be a long shot because of its difficulty, so I know that will take a lot of studying to do. A friend of mine has also offered to help with Arabic when I begin learning which is helpful.

At the college I will be attending to this year they teach soooooo many languages....chinese, japanese, russian, sign language (I know a little of due to a deaf friend), spanish, french, German, Polish etc but the two languages I wanted to go into (Arabic and Turksih) they didn't teach and the closest school they did teach it was in the central of London and 2 hours away. I am tempted but wont apply until I finish my other courses. So a couple of years at least yet



Kai learn to walk before you run!! Dont take on so much, and did you know that sign language is more or the same all over the world?

64.       kai
0 posts
 27 Feb 2007 Tue 01:27 am

Quoting libralady:

Kai learn to walk before you run!! Dont take on so much, and did you know that sign language is more or the same all over the world?



I am only doing Spanish, like I said, I'm giving up on Turkish ...well for now anyway.
And no I didn't know that about sign language. I thought it would have been completely different if anything....I mean BSL - BRITISH sign language, so I thought it would have been different for every language :-S Ah well, you learn something new everyday
I don't know to much of it, I know the alphabet and a few sentences and words but nothing much. I used to contact through letters most of the time, but that wasnt too often either because I used to make what I was saying clear so she could lip read because she hadnt yet learnt BSL fluently...she was taking classes.

65.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 27 Feb 2007 Tue 01:41 am

from what i know, there is a difference between sign languages.

american sign language (asl) is different from british sign language (bsl). these are also different to australia sign language (auslan). and also japanese sign language (jsl).

however, auslan and bsl are very very similar.

i don't know all the differences, but some sign languages mostly use the fingers, others make use of mouthing along with the fingers.

asl uses finger spelling alot in forming it's words, whilst jsl doesn't.

asl uses one hand in spelling out the alphabet, whilst auslan/bsl uses two hands.

check out this website for the asl, bsl, and auslan alphabets: http://www.dictionaryofsign.com/main.php

there is also turkish sign language:
http://turkisaretdili.ku.edu.tr/

66.       kai
0 posts
 27 Feb 2007 Tue 01:55 am

Quoting gezbelle:

from what i know, there is a difference between sign languages.

american sign language (asl) is different from british sign language (bsl). these are also different to australia sign language (auslan). and also japanese sign language (jsl).

however, auslan and bsl are very very similar.

i don't know all the differences, but some sign languages mostly use the fingers, others make use of mouthing along with the fingers.

asl uses finger spelling alot in forming it's words, whilst jsl doesn't.

asl uses one hand in spelling out the alphabet, whilst auslan/bsl uses two hands.

check out this website for the asl, bsl, and auslan alphabets: http://www.dictionaryofsign.com/main.php

there is also turkish sign language:
http://turkisaretdili.ku.edu.tr/



Ohh thanks Gezbelle cnm

67.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 27 Feb 2007 Tue 01:58 am

Quoting kai:

Quoting gezbelle:

from what i know, there is a difference between sign languages.

american sign language (asl) is different from british sign language (bsl). these are also different to australia sign language (auslan). and also japanese sign language (jsl).

however, auslan and bsl are very very similar.

i don't know all the differences, but some sign languages mostly use the fingers, others make use of mouthing along with the fingers.

asl uses finger spelling alot in forming it's words, whilst jsl doesn't.

asl uses one hand in spelling out the alphabet, whilst auslan/bsl uses two hands.

check out this website for the asl, bsl, and auslan alphabets: http://www.dictionaryofsign.com/main.php

there is also turkish sign language:
http://turkisaretdili.ku.edu.tr/



Ohh thanks Gezbelle cnm



bir şey değil kai canım

i learnt the auslan/bsl alphabet many moons ago. though i can't remember most of it now. but i knew there was a definite difference between what i learnt and the asl alphabet

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