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Not, without, none, -less...
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| 1. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 10:44 pm |
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Please someone give me the good grammatical rule, or at least something other than examples only of when to you "yok" "-siz" "degil". I need examples too but really need a rule! I think yok is "noun" yok. Say if you ask if a person is there and you were on the phone? If the person is not home would you say "Cem yok." so...do you use that for people too? There is probably a tidy rule, I hope! Thanks (degil) ha ha, no really thanks for any help you can provide. or not provide (how would you say that???) 
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| 2. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 10:54 pm |
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Quoting Badiabdancer74: Please someone give me the good grammatical rule, or at least something other than examples only of when to you "yok" "-siz" "degil". I need examples too but really need a rule! I think yok is "noun" yok. Say if you ask if a person is there and you were on the phone? If the person is not home would you say "Cem yok." so...do you use that for people too? There is probably a tidy rule, I hope! Thanks (degil) ha ha, no really thanks for any help you can provide. or not provide (how would you say that???) |
Yok is the opposit of var
Yok means 'do not exist'
Değil means 'not'
Hatır of couse is 'no'
And siz means 'without'
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| 3. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 10:58 pm |
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Quoting Badiabdancer74: Please someone give me the good grammatical rule, or at least something other than examples only of when to you "yok" "-siz" "degil". I need examples too but really need a rule! I think yok is "noun" yok. Say if you ask if a person is there and you were on the phone? If the person is not home would you say "Cem yok." so...do you use that for people too? There is probably a tidy rule, I hope! Thanks (degil) ha ha, no really thanks for any help you can provide. or not provide (how would you say that???) |
OK. I know there are always tons of exceptions, and probably we will debate these a lot (!!). But here are three simple rules that work for a native English speaker in many circumstances. But not all !
YOK = There isn't and is the opposite of VAR = there is.
e.g. Is there water in the cup? Bardakta su var mı?
you would answer: VAR = there is or YOK = there isn't
-SIZ = without, often like the English ending -less
e.g. şekersiz = without sugar acımasız = merciless
DEĞİL = standard negative that negates anything before it.
e.g. Ben uzun boylu değilim = I am not tall
In answer to the question: Cem evde mi? Is Cem at home?
I would say Cem evde değil = Cem is not home.
This a full sentence answer, BUT, colloquially someone may reply YOK for short.
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| 4. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 11:13 pm |
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Part of my confusion comes in that the verbs have a great was of saying "not something" by adding the "ma". Anlamiyorum-I don't understand. You are actually making sentences without a verb. That never happens in English, or it isn't really a sentence. Cem evde mi? Cem evde degil. NO VERBS! ohhh, interesting. Because of the -de, -den, -e kind of acts as a verb?
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| 5. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 11:21 pm |
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mA ,mE used with verbs, değil used with nouns
Yes,we can make a sentence without verbs
Called isim cümle, the noune sentence i guess
Check the grammar section in TC,and qdemir lessons,you will get better understanding
Search for negative in the languge forum and you will fide more info there,and more examples,more questions.
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| 6. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 11:29 pm |
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The only irregular verb in Turkish is "to be". These sentences DO have verbs, they are just irregular forms of the verb to be.
I have put the verbs in the following sentences in capitals:
değil is a verb when it works like "is not"
e.g. Cem evde DEĞİL = Cem IS NOT at home
yok is a verb when it works like "there is not any"
e.g. Çayda şeker YOK = There IS NO sugar in the tea
-ma -me is part of a verb
e.g. ANLAMIYORUM = I DO NOT UNDERSTAND
Var mı is the Question form of "to be" = are there?
mı? can be the question form of to be = is he/she or are you?
e.g. Uçakta doktor VAR MI? IS THERE a doctor on the plane
Evet VAR, Yes THERE IS
İngiliz MİSİN? ARE YOU English?
We are very lucky that this is the only irregular verb in Turkish!!!! Otherwise we would need these discussions about many many verbs
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| 7. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 11:42 pm |
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Quoting MarioninTurkey: The only irregular verb in Turkish is "to be". These sentences DO have verbs, they are just irregular forms of the verb to be.
I have put the verbs in the following sentences in capitals:
değil is a verb when it works like "is not"
e.g. Cem evde DEĞİL = Cem IS NOT at home
yok is a verb when it works like "there is not any"
e.g. Çayda şeker YOK = There IS NO sugar in the tea
-ma -me is part of a verb
e.g. ANLAMIYORUM = I DO NOT UNDERSTAND
Var mı is the Question form of "to be" = are there?
mı? can be the question form of to be = is he/she or are you?
e.g. Uçakta doktor VAR MI? IS THERE a doctor on the plane
Evet VAR, Yes THERE IS
İngiliz MİSİN? ARE YOU English?
We are very lucky that this is the only irregular verb in Turkish!!!! Otherwise we would need these discussions about many many verbs |
No,i dont think you can say değil is a verb and yok is a verb
They are not
Any verb in Turkish must have master ended with mAk,mEk and it doesnt go on değil and yok..
Yok is the case of not existence,as same as var is the case of existence.
Değil is same as not,its added to verb to be sentence 'olmak'
mA and mE is forming a new verb but a negative one
My turkish teacher explained it that way.
When you add mA to a verb,you are making a new verb and you treat it that way
Meaning when you add kisi eki,or some other suffix,you do it after mA ,mE
mA,mE has an irregular form when it comes with Şimdiki Zaman,it turns out to be mI and form 4 forms with it
mİ ,mI ,mÃœ,mU,
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| 8. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 11:55 pm |
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Canlı
I agree with you about -mak
but disagree on your comments about the irregular verb olmak.
Just look at any of the teacher's lessons loaded on this site. I clicked on the first one and it has değilim, değilsin, DEĞİL, değiliz, değilsiniz, değiller as the negative conjugation of the aorist tense of the verb:
http://www.turkishclass.com/tl_lesson.php?lesson_id=10
Since every sentence has to have a verb (otherwise it is a clause ot a sentence) in the sentence Ben İngilizim -im ending acts as the verb: the positive conjugation of olmak in the aorist. Similarly in Sen Koreli değilsin, değilsin is the verb: the negative conjugation of olmak in the aorist.
similarly for sentences where the only verb is var or yok: Bu evde kimse yok. Daha iyi araba yok. etc etc.
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| 9. |
09 Aug 2007 Thu 11:56 pm |
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Sorry everyone.
Ben aptalım = I AM stupid ...
and pressed return twice so the message went twice. Sorry!
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| 10. |
10 Aug 2007 Fri 12:11 am |
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Quoting MarioninTurkey: Canlı
I agree with you about -mak
but disagree on your comments about the irregular verb olmak.
Just look at any of the teacher's lessons loaded on this site. I clicked on the first one and it has değilim, değilsin, DEĞİL, değiliz, değilsiniz, değiller as the negative conjugation of the aorist tense of the verb:
http://www.turkishclass.com/tl_lesson.php?lesson_id=10
Since every sentence has to have a verb (otherwise it is a clause ot a sentence) in the sentence Ben İngilizim -im ending acts as the verb: the positive conjugation of olmak in the aorist. Similarly in Sen Koreli değilsin, değilsin is the verb: the negative conjugation of olmak in the aorist.
similarly for sentences where the only verb is var or yok: Bu evde kimse yok. Daha iyi araba yok. etc etc. |
İ couldnt open the link !...strange
However,as you said the verb olmak is irregular verb,the norm is to add mA to it in the negative.
But the point is ....mmm i dont know how to explain,but olmak CONSİDERED to be as verb to be in english
But its used in İsim sentences.
We studied olmak in HİTİT under the title
Ad Tümceleri
So its following the nouns rules not the verbs
ben (y)Im
sen sIn
O ...
biz (y)Iz
siz sInIz
onlar lAr
and that is why we add değil to them but as you can see with (O )there is nothing to add to değil so it be as it is değil
And that doesnt make a verb out of it,its just the negative tool in İsim sentences and sıfat 'adj.'
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| 11. |
10 Aug 2007 Fri 02:53 am |
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Quoting MarioninTurkey: Sorry everyone.
Ben aptalım = I AM stupid ...
and pressed return twice so the message went twice. Sorry!
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Problem yok Marion!
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| 12. |
10 Aug 2007 Fri 09:31 am |
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Quoting MarioninTurkey: Sorry everyone.
Ben aptalım = I AM stupid ...
and pressed return twice so the message went twice. Sorry!
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I think you are not fair! So, anyone who pressed twice is stupid?
If all accidents make people stupid, no one is normal 
Don't say that, even for yourself.
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| 13. |
10 Aug 2007 Fri 09:36 am |
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değil is a noun
yok is an adjective
They are not verbs.
değil:
Quote: Cümle içinde art arda kullanılan iki veya daha çok özneyi, tümleci, yüklemi, aralarından bazılarına olumsuzluk kavramı vererek birbirine bağlayan veya yüklemin olumsuz çekimini sağlayan kelime |
The word which makes the predicate (verb) negative, or which links two or more subjects, objects, or predicates each other by giving the negative meaning for some of them, in a sentence.
yok:
Quote: 1. (sıfat) Bulunmayan, mevcut olmayan (nesne, kimse vb.), var karşıtı.
2. Yasak
3. (isim) Olmayan, bulunmayan şey
4 . (edat) "Hayır" anlamında kullanılan bir söz
5 . (bağlaç) Birbirine karşıt iki cümleden, ikincisinin başına getirilen bir söz
6 . (bağlaç) Birinin söylediği sözlerden genelde kuşkulanıldığında veya sözler hafifsendiğinde kullanılan bir söz
7 . (edat) Savunulan bir düşÃ¼nceyi doğrulayan sözün başına getirilir |
1. (adjective) The thing (object, person, etc.) which doesn't exist. Opposite of "var" (exist)
2. Something forbidden
3. (noun) the thing which doesn't exist, which there is not.
4. (preposition/particle) A word used for "no"
5. (conjunction) A word put before the second of the sentences which are opposite.
6. (conjunction) A word used when it is suspected of the words someone said, generally, or when it is not cared
7. (preposition/particle) A word put before the word which confirms an idea defended.
These are definitions from Turkish Language Organization (TDK - Türk Dil Kurumu)
I will try to translate the examples as well.
1. (adjective) The thing (object, person, etc.) which doesn't exist. Opposite of "var" (exist)
There is not an example in TDK website for the first definiton
2. Something forbidden
İçki, sigara yok
Drink, cigarrette forbidden
3. (noun) the thing which doesn't exist, which there is not.
Sen yoktan anlamaz mısın?
Don't you understand (when you say) "absence"
(like; "I said we don't have, but you insist")
4. (preposition/particle) A word used for "no"
-Geldiler mi?
- Yok, daha gelmediler
- Have they come?
-No, they haven't yet
5. (conjunction) A word put before the second of the sentences which are opposite.
Verdiler, ne âlâ; yok vermediler, döner gelirsin
If they give, how good (it is ok); or if they don't, you will turn back
6. (conjunction) A word used when it is suspected of the words someone said, generally, or when it is not cared
Yok kâğıdı kalmamış, yok mürekkebi iyi değilmiş, hasılı bir alay bahaneler!
He says he didn't have papers, his ink wasn't good, in short, many cloaks... (writer doesn't believe in his excuses)
7. (preposition/particle) A word put before the word which confirms an idea defended.
Yok, doğrusu iyi adam, kim ne derse desin.
Well, in fact, he is a good man, who says whatever.
If there is something wrong in the writing, about English, sorry. I am trying to improve my English. I hope this helps everyone.
Kolay gelsin
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| 14. |
10 Aug 2007 Fri 10:42 am |
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Quoting caliptrix: değil is a noun
yok is an adjective
They are not verbs.
değil:
Quote: Cümle içinde art arda kullanılan iki veya daha çok özneyi, tümleci, yüklemi, aralarından bazılarına olumsuzluk kavramı vererek birbirine bağlayan veya yüklemin olumsuz çekimini sağlayan kelime |
The word which makes the predicate (verb) negative, or which links two or more subjects, objects, or predicates each other by giving the negative meaning for some of them, in a sentence.
yok:
Quote: 1. (sıfat) Bulunmayan, mevcut olmayan (nesne, kimse vb.), var karşıtı.
2. Yasak
3. (isim) Olmayan, bulunmayan şey
4 . (edat) "Hayır" anlamında kullanılan bir söz
5 . (bağlaç) Birbirine karşıt iki cümleden, ikincisinin başına getirilen bir söz
6 . (bağlaç) Birinin söylediği sözlerden genelde kuşkulanıldığında veya sözler hafifsendiğinde kullanılan bir söz
7 . (edat) Savunulan bir düşÃ¼nceyi doğrulayan sözün başına getirilir |
1. (adjective) The thing (object, person, etc.) which doesn't exist. Opposite of "var" (exist)
2. Something forbidden
3. (noun) the thing which doesn't exist, which there is not.
4. (preposition/particle) A word used for "no"
5. (conjunction) A word put before the second of the sentences which are opposite.
6. (conjunction) A word used when it is suspected of the words someone said, generally, or when it is not cared
7. (preposition/particle) A word put before the word which confirms an idea defended.
These are definitions from Turkish Language Organization (TDK - Türk Dil Kurumu)
I will try to translate the examples as well.
1. (adjective) The thing (object, person, etc.) which doesn't exist. Opposite of "var" (exist)
There is not an example in TDK website for the first definiton
2. Something forbidden
İçki, sigara yok
Drink, cigarrette forbidden
3. (noun) the thing which doesn't exist, which there is not.
Sen yoktan anlamaz mısın?
Don't you understand (when you say) "absence"
(like; "I said we don't have, but you insist")
4. (preposition/particle) A word used for "no"
-Geldiler mi?
- Yok, daha gelmediler
- Have they come?
-No, they haven't yet
5. (conjunction) A word put before the second of the sentences which are opposite.
Verdiler, ne âlâ; yok vermediler, döner gelirsin
If they give, how good (it is ok); or if they don't, you will turn back
6. (conjunction) A word used when it is suspected of the words someone said, generally, or when it is not cared
Yok kâğıdı kalmamış, yok mürekkebi iyi değilmiş, hasılı bir alay bahaneler!
He says he didn't have papers, his ink wasn't good, in short, many cloaks... (writer doesn't believe in his excuses)
7. (preposition/particle) A word put before the word which confirms an idea defended.
Yok, doğrusu iyi adam, kim ne derse desin.
Well, in fact, he is a good man, who says whatever.
If there is something wrong in the writing, about English, sorry. I am trying to improve my English. I hope this helps everyone.
Kolay gelsin |
We English speakers are taught that Var and Yok and opposites (or complements) , but varmak is a verb, and you are saying that there is no "yokmak". I am just wondering, not critizing.
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| 15. |
10 Aug 2007 Fri 11:33 am |
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Varmak as a verb means to arrive. It is different from var=there is.
Otobus saat 5'te Ankara'ya varacak. The bus will reach Ankara at 5 o'clock.
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| 16. |
10 Aug 2007 Fri 01:36 pm |
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Quoting caliptrix:
4. (preposition/particle) A word used for "no"
5. (conjunction) A word put before the second of the sentences which are opposite.
6. (conjunction) A word used when it is suspected of the words someone said, generally, or when it is not cared
7. (preposition/particle) A word put before the word which confirms an idea defended.
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preposition? you probably mean "postposition", right?
In Turkish
Edat = postposition
In languages like French, English
Edat = preposition
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| 17. |
11 Aug 2007 Sat 01:56 pm |
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Quoting si++: Quoting caliptrix:
4. (preposition/particle) A word used for "no"
5. (conjunction) A word put before the second of the sentences which are opposite.
6. (conjunction) A word used when it is suspected of the words someone said, generally, or when it is not cared
7. (preposition/particle) A word put before the word which confirms an idea defended.
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preposition? you probably mean "postposition", right?
In Turkish
Edat = postposition
In languages like French, English
Edat = preposition |
As I said, my English is not perfect, but these "edat"s are not after the word. So, what do you think? 
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| 18. |
11 Aug 2007 Sat 06:34 pm |
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Thanks for finally seeing rules on "yok". That is why Cem is always saying "Yok ya" on the phone when I hear him talk he is defending his position.
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| 19. |
11 Aug 2007 Sat 06:53 pm |
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Quoting Badiabdancer74: Thanks for finally seeing rules on "yok". That is why Cem is always saying "Yok ya" on the phone when I hear him talk he is defending his position. |
Yok ya = No way 
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