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Mt. Ararat
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| 1. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 04:49 pm |
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I saw a documentary on tv over the weekend about Noah's Ark and many people believe it is on Mt.Ararat. However, the Turkish government has been resistent in allowing explorations. Why is the Turkish government so resistent on this?
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| 2. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 04:53 pm |
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Without wishing to offend anyone, I do think that the Old Testament is a book of fables/fairy stores.... do you seriously believe they would find something? Unfortunately, accept it or not, science has rather discredited the Old Testament, so you have to read it as fable I guess (if you are a believer).
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| 3. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 04:59 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Without wishing to offend anyone, I do think that the Old Testament is a book of fables/fairy stores.... do you seriously believe they would find something? Unfortunately, accept it or not, science has rather discredited the Old Testament, so you have to read it as fable I guess (if you are a believer). |
well, we muslims believe that the old testament is a holly book and also you can find the same issue in islam ( qoran). it is not a myth for us
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| 4. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:00 pm |
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Be that as it may.....NASA (I think) have done extensive work viewing Mt Araat from the sky using satalites in order to search for any possible evidence that the ark might have existed there. They must believe there is at least a possibility of there being a glimmer to truth in the story!
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| 5. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:04 pm |
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Quoting ciko: well, we muslims believe that the old testament is a holly book and also you can find the same issue in islam ( qoran). |
Ops sorry  I genuinely dont want to offend people, but I do wonder how you deal with "Adam and Eve" versus dinosaurs? Regarding the Ark, do you have any idea of the size the ark would have to be to accommodate all those animals (not to mention the fact that Noah would have to go to every country in the world to collect them!).
Surely, you take this as "fable"? 
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| 6. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:16 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: well, we muslims believe that the old testament is a holly book and also you can find the same issue in islam ( qoran). |
Ops sorry I genuinely dont want to offend people, but I do wonder how you deal with "Adam and Eve" versus dinosaurs? Regarding the Ark, do you have any idea of the size the ark would have to be to accommodate all those animals (not to mention the fact that Noah would have to go to every country in the world to collect them!).
Surely, you take this as "fable"? |
well..the sizes of the ark are not told in qoran so i dont know about it..but yes all those animals were on the ark..it must be something symbolic..and size of the ark!!!.if you believe in the god who create such a great universe it is easy to believe that the same God created an ark which can get all those animals. i personally dont see that as an fable..it is something happened really. and some sources say that scientists found some archeological heritage between Basra and southeast Turkey.
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| 7. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:24 pm |
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Please excuse the offensive title, but see this link (which approaches Noah's Ark from a science point of view) and try to understand why it's impossible for most people to believe!
My final comment would be - if God did this "act" to rid the world of sin, then the point is IT DIDN'T WORK! Is God so falible?
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html
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| 8. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:34 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Please excuse the offensive title, but see this link (which approaches Noah's Ark from a science point of view) and try to understand why its impossible for most people to believe!
My final comment would be - if God did this "act" to rid the world of sin, then the point is IT DIDN'T WORK! Is God so falible?
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you can believe whatever you want aenigma. nobody can prove that it existed. and you can send a link saying " reasons not to believe in God" and " reasons not to believe in bla bla". there is nothing logical or provable in religions. but it is really really stupid and funny to try to prove it didnt exist according to some scientist datas like "The radius of the Earth is approx. 6370km"..it made me laugh
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| 9. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:38 pm |
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Well, things like this are why I am AEnigma Agnostic I would have a better chance of believing it if the Old Testament had said that "God peformed a miracle and took 2 of every species.." but it doesn't. It doesn't say ONCE that this task was assisted by the miracle of God. It says it was hand built by Noah (who is 600 years old)!.
Ahh well, we will just have to agree to disagree 
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| 10. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:41 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III:
PS. Could you remove the link from your quote - it makes the page enlarged! |
of course it was so stupid though
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| 11. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:42 pm |
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Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III:
PS. Could you remove the link from your quote - it makes the page enlarged! |
of course it was so stupid though |
More stupid than your story?
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| 12. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:44 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III:
PS. Could you remove the link from your quote - it makes the page enlarged! |
of course it was so stupid though |
More stupid than your story? |
my story was told in the holly books..so your last post may offend some people here... not me and it was really rude.
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| 13. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:44 pm |
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This is a true story It stated in quran, happened on Mount Djoudi in Turkey
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/images/wpe24.jpg
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| 14. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:45 pm |
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This thread does raise a question though. How do muslims (and christians) deal with Darwin and the proven existence of dinosaurs 200 million years BEFORE man?
How does religion deal with science? Do they choose to ignore it?
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| 15. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:46 pm |
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Quoting elham: This is a true story It stated in quran, happened on Mount Djoudi in Turkey
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"True" according to your faith Elham, but please respect that I am not a muslim or Christian and for me, it is not "true" if it cannot be scientifically proved.
It is "true" because you have FAITH.
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| 16. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:49 pm |
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Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III:
PS. Could you remove the link from your quote - it makes the page enlarged! |
of course it was so stupid though |
More stupid than your story? |
my story was told in the holly books..so your last post may offend some people here... not me and it was really rude. |
Well I never wish to cause offence so I suppose I have to accept (by your rules) that you can call MY STORY stupid, but I am not allowed to call YOUR STORY stupid.
Nice.
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| 17. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:56 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III:
PS. Could you remove the link from your quote - it makes the page enlarged! |
of course it was so stupid though |
More stupid than your story? |
my story was told in the holly books..so your last post may offend some people here... not me and it was really rude. |
Well I never wish to cause offence so I suppose I have to accept (by your rules) that you can call MY STORY stupid, but I am not allowed to call YOUR STORY stupid.
Nice. |
the difference is what you believe is just your view..like anything in your life. what i told you in my post was from my holly book. it is much more than a view to me. that is why i said your calling it stupid may offend some people here. whatever..it is impossible to agree on such a thing.
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| 18. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:57 pm |
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and i didnt call your view stupid..just the link was stupid. that is all. you know that i respect your views if you dont have a fish memory.
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| 19. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 05:57 pm |
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Well I wont argue any further points on this as I don't want it to get this thread locked. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to post topics like this, as it's quite impossible to avoid getting into religious debate.
It this website rules state we should not talk about religion, then why does it deem to be "OK" so long as we don't argue about it? This implies that MY views are ignored out of respect to religions.
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| 20. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:02 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: This thread does raise a question though. How do muslims (and christians) deal with Darwin and the proven existence of dinosaurs 200 million years BEFORE man?
How does religion deal with science? Do they choose to ignore it? |
I cannot speak for muslims or christians but certainly the biblical story of creation is not totally against science. As long as you accept that the '7 days' is metorphoric and that not everything should be taken totally literally then the two accounts can co-exist quite happily. And there really is no reason not to accept it as metorphoric as the cration story itself talks about events that were before mankind and there could not be observed by man.
As for Darwin, he himself was a practicing christian and never saw his theories as contradicticing biblical accounts. I think the one thing that sets human beings apart from the rest of the creatures on our planet is the ability to make reasoned decisions - other animals exist by insinct (often very developed instinct but still instinct) whereas we are able to make rational choices. Biblical stories say that man was created to oversee the existing animals and dinosaurs could therefore pre-exist humans without any conflict.
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| 21. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:03 pm |
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I don't say the Ark does not exist somewhere, though I find it hard to believe - but who am I to deny?
But... I have been at the place of Noah's Ark near Doğubayazit and I don't believe it is there. A very faint shadow of something someone with very much imagination is there to see. That's all. And most of the research has been done by the team of Ron Wyatt, Bill Fry and Jerry Bowen from Anchorstone, a group of Christians who believe in it - suspicious me thinks: they are not looking hard for evidence of absence. I have also visited the Noah's Ark Visitors Centre (the 'manager' there is ehm ... someone I know  ) and again, some stones, newspaper articles are not convincing me.
For those who believe or just are curious:
http://www.anchorstone.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=28&Itemid=111
http://www.anchorstone.com/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=116&catid=1
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| 22. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:03 pm |
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Before you call me "rude" please ask yourselves that if this was a thread about Buddists, do you think you muslims would be able to read their beliefs as "truth" without commenting?????
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| 23. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:03 pm |
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please stop to modify your post. i am confused
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| 24. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:05 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Before you call me "rude" please ask yourselves that if this was a thread about Buddists, do you think you muslims would be able to read their beliefs as "truth" without commenting????? |
at least i would not call their beliefs stupid
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| 25. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:05 pm |
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Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III: Before you call me "rude" please ask yourselves that if this was a thread about Buddists, do you think you muslims would be able to read their beliefs as "truth" without commenting????? |
at least i would not call their beliefs stupid |
Ciko, you seem to forget that you called MY beliefs stupid first
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| 26. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:07 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III: Before you call me "rude" please ask yourselves that if this was a thread about Buddists, do you think you muslims would be able to read their beliefs as "truth" without commenting????? |
at least i would not call their beliefs stupid |
Ciko, you seem to forget that you called MY beliefs stupid first |
Aenigma, you seem to forget the difference between belief and view and i didnt call you view stupid..it was link
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| 27. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:07 pm |
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Quoting ciko: the difference is what you believe is just your view..like anything in your life. what i told you in my post was from my holly book. |
But it could be argued that any Holy Book (note not holly) is only considered to be holy because mankind has decided that it should be that way. Even casting that aside, if we assume that a book truely is holy, do you really think that every word is to be taken literally? Surely some of the stories are written the way that they are to make it easy for people to understand the underlaying theology and doctrine.
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| 28. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:10 pm |
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Quoting bod: Quoting ciko: the difference is what you believe is just your view..like anything in your life. what i told you in my post was from my holly book. |
But it could be argued that any Holy Book (note not holly) is only considered to be holy because mankind has decided that it should be that way. Even casting that aside, if we assume that a book truely is holy, do you really think that every word is to be taken literally? Surely some of the stories are written the way that they are to make it easy for people to understand the underlaying theology and doctrine. |
+ 1000000000000
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| 29. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:11 pm |
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Quoting ciko: Aenigma, you seem to forget the difference between belief and view and i didnt call you view stupid..it was link |
Ciko - did you read it ALL? You found ONE part of that text that was incorrect. What about the rest?
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| 30. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:15 pm |
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Quoting bod: Biblical stories say that man was created to oversee the existing animals and dinosaurs could therefore pre-exist humans without any conflict. |
They could only pre-exist if you accept that God didn't actually create the Earth in 7 days. However, as nobody here will accept that these stories are fable and only based on "some truth", then your theory is incorrect in their eyes and it means that they ignore science.
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| 31. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:16 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: Aenigma, you seem to forget the difference between belief and view and i didnt call you view stupid..it was link |
Ciko - did you read it ALL? You found ONE part of that text that was incorrect. What about the rest?
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i wont keep arguing. you know what i meant. i was just hurt because you called my belief stupid..maybe it is my achilles heel. and if you read my posts you will see i am clever enough to criticize my religion. please do not treat me as if i am being a bigoted muslim.
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| 32. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:19 pm |
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Quoting ciko: i wont keep arguing. you know what i meant. i was just hurt because you called my belief stupid..maybe it is my achilles heel. and if you read my posts you will see i am clever enough to criticize my religion. please do not treat me as if i am being a bigoted muslim. |
Ciko I am NOT calling Islam stupid. I am only saying that this STORY should not be treated literally (in MY opinion).
I sincerely apologise for offending you and won't post any further on this thread 
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| 33. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:20 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting bod: Biblical stories say that man was created to oversee the existing animals and dinosaurs could therefore pre-exist humans without any conflict. |
They could only pre-exist if you accept that God didn't actually create the Earth in 7 days. |
I actually explicited said that it is a pre-requisite for consolidation between creationalism and science that one accepts that the '7 days' quoted is figurative......
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| 34. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:28 pm |
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Quoting bod: I actually explicited said that it is a pre-requisite for consolidation between creationalism and science that one accepts that the '7 days' quoted is figurative...... |
Are we having a North-South language problem?! I know you said it is a pre-requisite - I was pointing out that nobody posting here accepts that pre-requisite. I was not stepping on your point
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| 35. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:35 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Are we having a North-South language problem?! |
If we are then there is a simple solution......you come here!
That way you can warm me up with a cuddle - there are never any problems with that language
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| 36. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 06:37 pm |
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Quoting bod: If we are then there is a simple solution......you come here!
That way you can warm me up with a cuddle - there are never any problems with that language |
Offfffffffff youuuuuuuuuuuu
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| 37. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 08:14 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting bod: If we are then there is a simple solution......you come here!
That way you can warm me up with a cuddle - there are never any problems with that language |
Offfffffffff youuuuuuuuuuuu |
*** puts finger on chin ***
-- oooooooooo - get you! --
*GiGGLe*
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| 38. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 08:32 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: well, we muslims believe that the old testament is a holly book and also you can find the same issue in islam ( qoran). |
Ops sorry I genuinely dont want to offend people, but I do wonder how you deal with "Adam and Eve" versus dinosaurs? Regarding the Ark, do you have any idea of the size the ark would have to be to accommodate all those animals (not to mention the fact that Noah would have to go to every country in the world to collect them!).
Surely, you take this as "fable"? |
I am a practicing Catholic and I don't find your point of view offensive at all. In fact, I agree with you. I believe that much of the text in the Bible are stories to teach a lesson. I am sure many people would disagree with me, but really the story makes little or no sense whatsoever.
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| 39. |
27 Aug 2007 Mon 08:48 pm |
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Quoting teaschip1: I saw a documentary on tv over the weekend about Noah's Ark and many people believe it is on Mt.Ararat. However, the Turkish government has been resistent in allowing explorations. Why is the Turkish government so resistent on this? |
Back to the original Q:
Mt Ararat is quite a sensitive issue.
For example, you have to get a permit to climb the mountain. It is much harder for a foreigner to get a permit than for a Turk. You also have to have one of the local guides to be able to go up it.
I think that it is political, not just religious.
Here are some reasons:
1. Mt Ararat is in the borderlands, and is claimed by Armenians as part of Armenia. The current Armenian adverts on CNN use the line "Armenia: Noahs route, your route". Maybe they don't want Armenia reviving its claims if it seems there will be a great lot of money to be made from tourists.
2. The wider area has been the site of conflict between PKK terrorists and Turkish army. Turkish government want to limit number of tourists going there as the more tourists the more likely a high profile kidnap case, and this would bomb Turkey's tourist industry.
3. Bible says the ark landed on Mount Ararat, Koran says Mount Cudi. Potential of religious conflict here.
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| 40. |
04 Sep 2007 Tue 12:13 am |
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Thanks for your explanation, much appreciated.
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