Mss. Rice will be in Turkia tomorrow..She will probably

1) state that US is against all terror, but PKK has only killed 30000 up to now, including some babies, teachers, nurses and many innocent bystanders and ask what the problem is.
2) suggest that Turkia be patient,
3) Confirm continiued necessity for mutual cooperation against terrorism,
4) Suggest a joint comission be formed (including some Eskimo representatives) to discuss and resolve the issue within the next 5 years,
5) Swear that the US survelliance sattelites must have missed the recent PKK infiltration into Turkia, which resulted in death of 15 Turkish soldiers,
6) Complain that US can not find PKK telephone numbers in the telephone directory...and request Turkish advise on methods to get in touch with the bandits..

I wonder what Turks will say in response to this fair and rational US approach to the problem.

pessimistic but true,damn you

PKK = Kurdish Terror Organisation , everyone knows it and we don't need any garrulity about that.

Really?
Why doesn't anyone tell me anything? (what Rice will say !)

I am not giving to anybody anything. It was just a reply about the response of "what Rice will say". Do not try to provoke the people

ooooo look at you been here 2 mins and getting a bit shirty in that case kick Alphas ass

Madem bu sitedesin o zaman Türkçe bildiğini varsayarak yazıyorum. Kimseye birşey ima ettiğim yok , senin gibi embesiller haricinde...

mylo, you dont know what you are talking about.

the man is on my side, he is a little rough around the edges...that is all.

Look at Alpha balls of steel answering his critiques

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"

Samuel Johnson

There is a confusion about the meanings of patriotism, nationalism etc.

In Turkish vatansever means someone who works for his/her country and comes to its help in the hour of need without expecting any reqards. A vatansever could be left or right and he does not necessarily have to be conservative.

A milliyetçi or a nationalist on the other hand believes that his/her nation is superior to other nations and whatever interest it has must also be his/her ultimate targets in life.

There is a thick line seperating fundamentalists from nationalists and patriots and that line acts like a security valve. The problem with Bush is that he doesn't have such a valve at all.

Turkish are getting more and more nationalist eachday..i think patriotism is not shouting hateful slogans and wave the flag. most of those march on streets do nothing for their country. and even worse thing is they are getting more crowded eachday.. i am speaking as a kurdish here..i am so afraid nowadays that i have to hide that i am kurdish (lucky that i dont have kurdishaccent)..kurdish i know in istanbul cannot speak their language lately...and in anatolia siutaion is even worse..in some towns in anatolia, kurdish neighborhoods are attacked by nationalists.. kurdish are on tenterhooks...nobody can tell me that people who hate kurdish are a minority in Turkey...they are everywhere!!!

I am afraid I have to agree with ciko. I have visited Turkey several times and have Kurdish Turkish and Arabic friends there. It always saddens me that i get a bad or strange reaction from some Turkish people when i say i have Kurdish friends or if i talk about Adana. They seem astounded that i would want to visit Adana and always ask why i want to go there. When i say i have friends there they usually proceed to tell me bad things about the Kurdish as if as if they think i should not got there. In general Turkey has such a good reputation amongst visitors for its hospitality. I find it very sad that they cannot extend this hospitality to the Kurdish people.

dont worry Mrx, my those words for only Turkish racists. and i dont think any reasonable person here would be take offence over my post...by the way..not çiko...it is ciko

TIME MAGAZINE:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1675165,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-sidebar

PKK problem will end, one way or the other...

Turkish anti-PKK anger mounts: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7073718.stm

Turkey closes airspace to northern Iraq flights - NTV

Nothing like adding fuel to the fire...

There is no tolerance to, negotiation or bargain with PKK or their supporters/protectors...They will have to go..

Kurds with Turkish citienship must make a decision. If they are not happy to side with their brothers loyal to Republic of Turkia, it is time for them to go and join PKK fighting in the mountains. The cowards who sympathize with, but do not dare join the terrorists; provacatively barking from the safety of darkness disgust me.

Yeah, and we should have sent all the anti-war activists to Mexico..

"Turks should not go into Iraq" is not one of PKK lines...

Kurds are no gift from god to Turks either....Go for the mountains boy, unless you are as honest as your grand fathers...be honest for god's sake,....

Always " Nationalism " giving free of charge proofs that it's " A shame for the Humanity history." It's nothing than making the mass cry for more blood!

I am not happy with most of my state's politics either...but that is something else..

We shall get rid of PKK first (not the Kurds as an etnic group)...we can then try and improve the internal politics as well...together.

Serdaro, wake up !

You now have no nation, no country and no nationalism. Happy?

If USA leaves today...you will pay the price of trying to carve a piece of Iraq for yourselves, tomorrow ! Traitors never win...

Freedom of speech is not the freedom of saying whatever comes into your mind.

It is the freedom to differentiate and chose the honest, the rational things you can say between the range of all the things you can possibly say - and keep the rest to yourself.

Before you critisize 'your country', learn your country, feel your country...share the feelings of your country.

PKK are terrorists. Terrorism must go..Terrorism will only delay improvement of Turkia, including lives of her Kurdish citizens.

If what I say is nationalistic...so be it !

thats a blooding sore of our great country,and some of dirty nails always itching this sore,thats all..

How far can you go, slandering George Washington in USA?

People should make difference between KURD and PKK DISCIPLE
I feel sorry for the people who need to hide their Kurdish descendance.

This is so archaic and racist... Where are those who prone the MODERNISM???

Sedaro and some other guys are talking through their arses.

If and when they can leave their forked tongues...we will have a better discussion..

Hahahaa... There is a God here in this website, if you are not agree with his ideas you may kicked out from his Heaven or at least granted a name!

Here's couple of double faced phoneys as democracy defenders. We know what happened to Bobby Sand in a cell. We know what happened to Indians and Oklahoma Bomber who was separatist. Marked the kurdish houses ! The ultimate lie i have ever heard. Here in Istanbul thousands of kurds working ,trading etc even today. But any of them never blames theirs terror organisation but turkish nationalism. Ask yourself why nationalism soars ? When you find out the answer also you will find the criminal.

I am not angry at all dear!!! : ) lol
I am free you know I don't care to be deleted.. lol
and you should check this: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/2006/05/31/encyclopedia_lists_ataturk_as_dictator/2201/

And also the difinition of dictator in the dictionary...

Ignorant!

ouh..new members are quite angry

Good point, Trudy.

We seem to forget that we are all one race, the human race. There are bad people everywhere, from every culture, this generalizing is ridiculous. Do we all not bleed the same, die the same? You dont have to read between the lines, let me spell it out for you....If you are prejudice to all Kurds, Turkish, Arabic, American, French, etc. because of the injustices of a few, you are IGNORANT!!!! I am no better than a Turk, a Kurd, an Arab as an American simply because I am American. It is stupid to think that you are better than anyone because of where you come from. The only thing that sets us apart is what is in our hearts. Carry hatred and prejudice if you want, but it is only a sign of your ignorant, little mind.

Racism, nationalism...whatever...

When motherland is threatened, all else including PKK or any citizen of Turkish Republic in treason (including Turks) are trivia.

Turkish Weekly Comment:
http://www.turkishweekly.net/index.php

Turkey refuses to have any contact with or make any concessions to the PKK.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/54CD83B4-DD10-42A4-9A05-5D07471CACA6.htm

handsom,

keep your political crap ....continiue the game you started yourself, smart boy!...

let us see what else you have to ask..))))))))))

A turkish Intellect Murat Belge:
in turkish but I am sure some of you will be able to understand
some extracts:

No need to take Murat Belge as a point of reference...to judge Turkish nationalists...I doubt his intellect anyway...

What a Turkish nationalist is saying is clear in my message to Ciko...Am I telling Ciko that he is a second class citizen?

Allow us to introduce about 5000 PKK members into your country...It wont take long for you to start feeling insecure too...

Turks, Kurds and others in this group must understand that the current fight is NOT betwwen Turk and Kurd citizens of Turkia, but between Turkia and PKK which is a terrorist organizsation (ask Mss. Rice, if you dont believe me)

Any one who sides with PKK is siding with terrorism, whether he is Kurdish, Turkish, American or Eskimo.

LET US FIGHT TERRORISM TOGETHER..

Is that clear?

You are right in general Catwoman but let me correct something. We shouldn't be talking about equal rights here. There is no ethnic discrimination in our laws (at least as far as I know). What we should be talking about is equal opportunities to Western and Eastern regions. The government carries out a number of projects and offers incentives to those wishing to invest in the Eastern provinces. Nevertheless, because of the unique geography of Turkey, East has always been more difficult to develop.


Anatolia is like a ladder. Whereas the altitude on the Western end is 0 it increases dramatically as you travel to east standing at altitudes of a couple of thousand meters on avarage in the farther parts of Anatolia. People live in small villages there with little communication, transportation and economic means. Many of them emigrate abroad and use the pretext we are being oppressed by the government.

SAGIRLAR DIALOGU.....

I didn't read your messages Gizli Yuz. I just wrote what I wrote there and that is my genuine opinion.

I criticized Catwoman in the past when I felt a need for criticism and praised her when I thought she was telling the truth. This is just one of such happy moments.

It is obviously not a good idea to be stuck with the past. Every day brings along a new chance to get somethings right. Let us not create enemies among ourselves.

The punchline is try to show a little sympathy to others if you want to be treated with sympathy.

We cannot create that sympathy by increasing the ethnic awareness.

This is a very depressing thread. I hope and pray that Turkia, with all it's citizens find peace and learn to live, love and prosper together.

Stay united! Don't let others divide you.

Pardon my question if it sounded ignorant,but isnt there a union or something,informal not formal gather Kurdish Turkish together and can talk by their names ?
They can state they are against PKK,and they are fulfilling their duty towards their country 'Türkiye' by fighting in the army against them
Wont this calm the Nationalism a little bit specially in the youngest generations ?

Ps: ciko,im sorry for what you had to go through,as i can see it,its your country as same as its anyones else country
You have your rights and you should fulfill your duties.
No one has the right to tell anyone if he is citizen or not,what gave anyone that right ?
What made him better than the other and judge them ?!

Türkiye have many people from different places as it was a big Empire in the past,so anyone who is not a Turkish till his great,great grandpa should leave too ?!

İm sorry for the racism posts you had to read here
And anyone think that way,in my opinion does NOT love his country,does NOT love Türkiye,he is going to sperate it and make it weak.

Remember that old man story ?
The one who was going to die and called his 7 sons and give each one a stick and ask them to break it ?
İt's broken,but when he collect the 7 sticks together and asked them to break them all together,they couldnt,they were too strong for them..
So,better keep the sticks together,many peopel out there want to break it,be smart and dont help them !

There is a saying i remember now ' ALLAH, protect me from my friends,as for my enemies i can handle them very well'!

That is what is correct Canli...Most Turks and Turkish Kurds agree with you..

But it will not make your friend Ciko happy...He has other ideas..

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=baldwin&book=fables&story=farmer

I recall a former, oft deleted member of this site who used to discuss Interpol too.
The writing style gives you away.

"Love it or leave it" is a very well known phrase from (unfortunately) my country's low IQ racists-nationalists. I am with Teaship on this. Freedom of speech should be maintained and I have not seen a direct assult to Ataturk. Even if there is one, he can be defendended easily.

Yeah, I think I will pass...it will just piss me off

İĞRENİYORUM BU TARTIŞMADAN!!!! Siz kimsiniz, başkaları hakkında öyle konuşuyorsunuz ki! Vallahi, Türk olmak bu ise, Türk olmak hep Atatürk'ü sevmekse, milliyetçi olmaksa, ırkçılıksa, ÖYLEYSE ne mustuz Türküm diyene!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is my suggestion: don't take people too seriously.

For those who are interested, everything Ataturk did is very comprehensively documented. You are welcome to make your own evaluation after doing your own reading.

It is very understandable that people defending completely different causes regard Ataturk as their leader. Who wouldn't want to have such an accomplished leader after all. Similarly, all the major football clubs in Turkey fervently and somewhat ridiculously claim that he supported their team.

Ataturk was born in 1881 and died in 1938, therefore his political ideas must be considered with that time frame in mind. Many historians agree his thoughts were extremely innovative and constructive. In Turkey, where everyone else had lost all their hopes for resurrection, he created a new state, abolished sultanate whereas he was expected to become the next sultan himself.

At a time when he had ultimate authority, he willingly paved the path for his citizens to form new political parties and defend their own political causes. He gave suffrage to women, had his step daughter educated as a combat pilot. That was a symbolic move meant to prove that women could achieve any task. He wanted to destroy the stereotypes about women of the day. He also asked women not to wear veils anymore and encouraged them to take part in all spheres of daily life. Women enjoyed an unprecedented period of freedom and equality in his time and he did all those things in a time frame between 1923-1938.

Many of his revolutions were erroded by subsequent governments.

How badly can you think of a man who freed your country from the occupation of English, French, Italian, Greek, Australian, New Zealender, Indian troops. Who never lost a battle and who ruled the country like magic for 15 years.
We owe a great part of our national identity to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

do staunch muslims in turkey support him?

Is it safe to assume, you would rather not have anyone comment on your post, since your writing in Turkish. :-S

i think each nationalism creats opposing nationalisms and thats really big danger when turned to racism...

Exactly. Acknowledge your view points, Catwoman and Vineyards!

Hey handsom, I will try!

The ageless lady of Pülümür

I saw her in a mountain village near Pülümür
I asked her her age and she laughed like a mystery
Some said 80, some villagers said 100
I looked at her face, and she laughed like a mystery

She had a sceptre in her hand
A faded kingdom
a blend of velvet
She was a Hittite, a Seljuk
An Armenian, a Kurd
A Turk

I asked her her age and she laughed like a mystery
Like a noble woman she took my arm
Sweeping her skirt along the dusty village lane
She took me to her one-roomed palace
to her village cottage

I lost track of time with her
I found lost time with her
In the palace decorated with the earth of the most noble peasant
I crowned my head with my Turkishness***


Bülent ECEVİT

***Note:
The Turkish word is Türkiyeliliğim : literally my "of-Turkey-ness"
which is different from Türklüğüm: my Turkishness
as it doesn't reflect race, but citizenship.
But I couldn't think how to represent this in English. Anyone have a good suggestion?

Marion,
Harikasin..

Wish I could have made Türkiyeli idea better in English. It is the key point uniting Turks, Armenians, Kurds (and even a Brit like me) in this country, but we seem to be only able to express it in a sentence not a word in English.

Deli, this is the point of "happy is he who calls himself a Turk" (or happy is she who calls herself a Turk - Turkish ain't sexist like English!) - it isn't happy is he who is a Turk. Ethnicity and citizenship are different things.

Hopefully the first hearing of the Malatya trial tomorrow morning will prove that in the modern Turkey this is true.

Marion I would like to learn your thoughts a 'foreign' who lives in Turkey for ten years and also kind and RESPECTFUL member of this forum.

Oh my apologies Prym - you are Turkish and, it appears, actually speak better English than most English

Amended my post

Try forgetting you prejudices and watch what Turkey is doing nowadays, in Southern Turkia...Do you see them butchering anyone?

There is no such thing as "Turkiyeli". We are not running a circus here !

I dont mind...just make sure you are decent under the tamer's suit...before you throw it away )))))))))))))))

Good ! I am releved to hear that..

Wait for the que from the brass band....and off you go !

There is no kurdish problem in Türkiye. 99% percent of pure blood kurds are kurdish racists and 70% of them are active or passive militans of kurdish terror organisation. Interesting point is that a kurd never says that the kurdish terror organisation is in kurdish racist formation. But the way of blaming the Turks is to call them as racists. What kurds want ? Some Land ? In your dreams baby. So what else kurds want ? Freedom ? You have to be grateful us for we didn't take your freedom back after all the riots you made and all the people you killed up to now for hundred years. In Bulgaria, Turk are lived for ages. Noone of them never tried to build up a terror organisation to take some land. Nowhere in the world. Kurds want more and more. But the only thing they'll get is anger of Turks from now on. Do not tell us lies. We know who is who already. This is Türkiye baby, for Turks. Just like Germany for Germans. As i said there is no kurdish problem in Türkiye, the problem is kurdish itself.

Last i will finish this with a verse :

You better shiver from the revenge of this nation which wanted justice.
When the sabres unsheathe with overpowering once


(Erlik Han the only ultimate racist against all the kurdish racists.)
PS: there is not a well-known history of kurds, according to this, habitation for 2000 years is barely untrue.

Always nice to see when people here show their true colours ; )

Turkey is only for Turks? Luckily we dont seem to refuse all those Turks so desparate to live in England....

....and Indians,pakinsatnis,chinese,bengalis,poles,bulgarians,Turks,Kurds,most people from the poorer areas of the African continen tbasically anyone from anywhere you want,take your pick we have them all,end of sale come pick up your bargains

Replying to a nationalist is a wasted exercise, I do know that. You are unable to see me as an individual, only an "English person" or, in some cases "an English woman". Your view on people is ONLY their nationality - because of course, that is your fundemental and narrow view of the world.

Therefore when I say you are racist, your reply is "well you have racists in England too". Your perception of this is only that I am English. You are unable to see that racism is wrong WHEREVER you live. You automatically assume that I will defend England as blindly and ignorantly as you defend Turkey. Sorry, but I wont.

In your world, Germany is German, Turkey is Turkish etc. Borders are so important to you, and to so many people in this stupid world. Who can blame people for wanting to live in other countries? You are lucky to be born in a country that is rich in food and has good healthcare. If you had the misfortune to be born in a famine stricken African country, I can assure you that you would have a different opinion. Would you not feel it your right, as a human, to take your family to a better place?

Yes England has racists. England has murderers too, same as Turkey - does that make it right?

PS. The same BBC Website as the link you sent is happy to confirm that UK and USA regard PKK as a terrorist organisation. The fact they "urged restraint" does not mean they do not believe they are terrorists. I have sent you links from the British Home Office and BBC confirming this on that thread.

Fameous Turkish singer Bob Dylan replied that question years ago.

"The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind....."

According to nationalistic racist members of this site is...

PKK are Kurdish terrorists
= Kurdish people all support PKK
= Kurdish are PKK
= Get Kurds out of Turkey

Therefore, does it also follow:-

Al-Qaeda are muslim terrorists
= Muslim people all support Al-Qaeda
= Muslim are Al-Qaeda
= Get all muslims out of the west??????????????

By the way this is my country, i don't care about yours. I am calling all kurdish are kurdish racists. ( execptions do not break the rule ). You can call any religion as any way. But the thing you never get is the fact of religions built by races.

*Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
*It is rude to curse people.

As I said before, you shouldn't take people too seriously.
The number of Turks thinking the same way as Erlik is a miserable 5%. We know that there are as many voters for Le Pen in France and that anti-Turkish discourses do fetch some votes elsewhere in Europe.

I do meet people who are full of hatred of all things Turkish here and there on the Internet. I still like to think that doesn't prove anything.

Do not try to change Erlik. I know that people like him won't budge so easily. His is not just a point of view, his whole personality is shaped around a national identity which he regards more valuable than everyone else's. People having this notion also believe that a state holds more importance than its people.

I also think that everyone should be free to chose whatever political belief they think befits them as long as they don't intend to harm others. I certainly don't want to waste my time trying to get people to give up on their ultra nationalistic ideals and to find the true path. I just don't care a bit about that and I should suggest you the same for the sake of your own peace of mind.

"when reason sleeps, monsters are born" - Goya

Vineyards
Nobody thinks ALL Turks are racist. To think that, would be to bring myself to the level of the very people I detest!

Nobody thinks there is not racism everywhere in the world.

As I also said, it is pointless to argue with such a person, I agree. Maybe sometimes its fun to do it - it's sometimes useful to know the detail of someone's hatred

One of the front defender of kurdish racism Musa Anter said that way :

Are Kurds fool by demanding to seperation ? Turk will take the best places in Western Turkey but Kurd will give the unproductive region in Eastern Turkey ? This is not acceptable. Istanbul is ours, Izmir is our, also Ankara . When the day come we will invade all of them !

He sounds as extreme as you. However, as he was not speaking for all Kurds, then your post is pointless.