As an agnostic, I am genuinely curious as to why you believe in God/Allah.

Have you made any theological investigations into your faith, or is it just because your parents/culture taught you to believe and you have never felt it necessary to question it?

If you believe in God/Allah (without requiring proof) and have absolute faith, why are you insulted when people (like myself) question the validity of your religion?

Have any of you ever changed religion (for reasons OTHER than because you married someone of another faith - which, frankly, is absurd!)?


ADMIN'S NOTE: This thread is only allowed if you speak of your personal thoughts and don't try to persuade or argue with each other or make universal statements about religion and/or who/what is right or wrong.

I guess mostly it is what you were brought up with. I, as a Roman Catholic, grew up going to Catholic school and going to church every Sunday. Of course, in Religion class, I would always question the priests by asking "if God is everywhere, why do you say you can not get married outside of a church, like on a beach or in a field." I also don't believe in confession. I don't feel I need to go through a "middle man" to tell God I am sorry or how I feel.

As I have gotten older, I still believe in God. I love him and thank him for all my blessings. This is what makes ME happy. Having said that, I no longer go to church on Sundays. I just believe in trying to be kind to one another (and of course, being human I falter on that one). I certainly don't judge people on what they think or believe. I feel it is a very personal matter. I work with someone that is still a "christian", but of a different sect then catholic. He is very judgemental and believes his way is the only way. This is such a contradiction. I have also experienced this with my father's side of the family, they are Baptist and look down on Catholics. I never understood how someone can say they believe in God and love him and treat someone else like this.

I think because of some of these experiences, I make my religion a personal matter between me and God. I don't believe in "organized" religion. I think sometimes this is where problems arise. I certainly am not speaking for anyone else. Like I said this is a personal thing for me and I finally feel happy and at peace.

Hi Wendy!

I'm in your boat too! I'm quite spiritual- but not religious. I think Allah, Jesus, Buddha, Brahma.... they're all part of this huge universal godforce both outside and inside every organism!

How else can one explain the profound mysteries of life, love, joy and fate?

I have truly seen miracles in my life. I do believe in God and its not only because my parents raised me that way.
I think having a good spiritual relationship with God is like a marraige. Its not easy. There are good times and bad. Its hard work at times and maybe too easy to give up. But if you have faith and work hard, your reward will come.

I agree with you both, Christine and Keith. One just has to look at nature or what they have to be thankful for in their lives.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in God, I just don't believe you have to go to church every Sunday to show your love for Him.

I was brought up Catholic and went to private Catholic schools all of my life. I will admit that religion has been a huge part of my life. However, I believe you lead by example and my parents whom I believe are very fortunate to live a very healthy spirtual life, drove the path for me as an adult.

I'm very open minded to other religions, I may not agree with some of their teachings or beliefs, however I never have had the thought that my religion was any better than the next.

For me giving up an hour a week on Sundays, to praise God is the least I can do to respect the person I believe who died for us. What I get out of church the most is an hour of reflection of how my week went, how my upcoming week will go. Anyone who goes to church may take something different away from it.

I don't have the fear that if I don't believe or go to church that I will be condemed to hell. For me it's more of a spirtual uplifting that I need at times to keep me in check.

Scientifically speaking, it can be hard to comprehend for some who need proof. For me the proof is all around me, my family, friends, love, life itself. Sometimes even though people who have deep spirtual beliefs even struggle at the most difficult times. Why disease, why pain, why death...it's so unfair..if there was a God why would he allow this to happen.

These are the most difficult times when your faith is challenged and put to the test. Some people turn to God and some blame him.

For me if there is the remote possibility that their is a God, I would rather take the chance and embrace him. The question for me is, What do I have to loose? An hour a week. What do I have to gain? Peace of mind, which to me is a sense of spirtual fullfillment.

[post edited by admin]


when i was young i was believing in allah only coz i found myself as a muslim and i had never feel the faith or the excestance of allah, but day after day when i had bad days "actually so bad days" i relized the difference between having and not having faith ,
and now i know that when i have faith it is much easier to lay all your hard moments and share them with allah and believe me he had been,is,and will be helpful always.
and now for me it is do different to read holy quran and to feel it.

Faith is not something you can explain or articulate. You either have it or you don't. Religion is an expression of your faith. I believe you can be an extremely ethically person without being religious.

I have seen too much in my life to ever say there is no God. I have no idea whose religion is right (I have a feeling we are all wrong in some ways and right in others) but for me personally, I have studied, questioned, agonized, prayed ect...But every Sunday, I find myself in Church, saying the same prayers my ancestors have said for centuries and feeling a profound sense of belonging and fellowship. I don't know how to put that into words. I don't know why the thought of Jesus's life, work and death can move me to tears...but they do. Maybe that makes me unsophisticated....so be it. AMEN!

This is what I believe and in no way is meant to offend anyone else's faith (note for Admin )

"An Agnostic [noun] embraces a worldview in which the existence of deity is unknown or unknowable."

Although raised as a Christian, I had doubts at an early age that my "religion" had anything to do with what the bible was telling us to do. Everything about the "church" goes against what Jesus was trying to teach people - i.e. you should not pray publically, you should not worship icons, you can talk directly to God not via a preacher or pope. Even then I could see that the church was sitting on millions of pounds while people in the world were suffering.

Since then I have looked at all other religions and found them only to be human's interuptations of how you should believe in God and all seem to me to be equally hypocritical as my own culture's religion.

I believe that if God went to enormous effort to communicate and pass on "religion" to either Jesus or Mohammad, then why was there no significant improvements after these "new" religions? Is the world free of war, suffering, cruelty? Are the prison's less full? Is there less crime? Religion has actually caused more bloodshed. Did God make a mistake then?

In my opinion religion is merely geographical culture. If the most devout muslim had been born in a western country, they would merely be a devout Christian, and vice versa.

I am a good person, I have compassion and I take action when I see suffering, I have never stolen, murdered or hurt any living thing and I respect this planet. I don't need a prophet to tell me what is right or wrong, and I dont believe any human does, unless they are mentally ill. And yet, most religions will tell me that I will burn in eternal hellfire for not having faith, while representatives of their religions kill eachother in their god's name and go to paradise/heaven!

I believe that, if there is a God, he will be quite happy with the way I lived my life, thank you. I will take my chances

Anyway, I am too busy biting my tongue...I should follow Femme's example and stay well away from this MONSTER thread I created!

i think religions or beliefs the latest things for discussion and thats to same blaming someone to be believer or unbeliever.Sure thats good to explain or discover everything with the guide of scienece and mind.But i believe theres never benefit on discuising about the main human rights...

In a sense AEnigma, it was quite good to open up this thread, at least we can share knowing what we are getting into, not hidden agenda in your topic !

I was brought up aethiest and remained that way until after living in Turkey for 5 years (I've been her longer than that now). After 5 years, I became a Christian. When I first arrived my whole in-law family were Muslims and pretty devout, I attended all the bayrams and everything. I reasearched so much into Islam and Christianity, prayed a lot, read the Bible and Quran and no matter what I did, prayed, said, felt, something very spiritually was right with Jesus Christ, son of God. His whole life, words, examples, teachings added to answered prayers made me become a Christian.

My answer is thus. Hope this helps answer your question AEnigma.

Have a nice day y'all Ya hear !!

spirtual uplifting

I remember doubting God from a very young age. What proof was there? Was there some strange old man sitting in the clouds, showering good upon those that deserved it? Over the years my doubt grew and I questioned even more. There are more questions remain unexplained about God than ever answered.

I am also quite synical about those who profess to be religious or regularly attend church but by their actions and words they are some of the most hypocritical people known. For instance, take the priests who abuse young boys placed in their trust. What about those who profess to be Christian but would walk past an injured or sick person in the street?

Then you have the major disasters, how could a God let this happen, why did he not protect the innocent victims? Why did so many people lose not just one relative but many? How can a person who has lost 22 members of his family believe in God?

As for how the earth was created, if you believe in God, then it was He who created it, even though science proves that the world has been here for billions of years. For example, Jehovah Witnesses only believe in (AD) after Christ and don't believe in dinnosaurs when clearly they existed. Adam and Eve, impossible!

My mother is very religious and so was my Grandmother, regularly going to Church, my grandmother played the church organ. I was forced to go to church, but I was not happy and soon stopped, preferring to go fishing. I used to look around the church and wonder if God was sitting in the roof, watching me. I used to think, if there is a God make me fall of my bike on the way home. I never did!

These are just my opinions and my reasons for not believing in a God.

I guess that is why it is called "faith". Once you start to question it, much like Father Christmas, you get disappointed

is brain,mind and logic enough to explain everything??

Universe full with so unanswered questions still,sure noone of us never deny power of mind or science,but after some line not possible to find answers of many unknowns,so religions or believe in God good way for to be aware of that we r only very lil drops in an endless universeand religions different paths for unknowns with the same self

anyway thats possible to be good person without believe in God to,so to believe or to don't believe just a personal prefer and one of the most main human right which has to keepen unless don't give harm for to others

How to create your own religion!

1. You need a story
The Romans created the story of Romulus and Remus. The christians have Jesus. The muslims have Mohammad. You need a reason for the beginning of the religion.

2. Put roots in other, existing religions or philosophies. Play on what people already believe. Scientology has its roots in psychology. Christianity roots itself in judeaism. Satanism seems to root itself in greek religion and philosophy (as the satan figure has been referred to as promethean on a few accounts)

3. Form some sort of enemy or comparative opposition
Judaism seemed anti-gentile. Satanism mocks he 'pipedreams' of christianity.

4. Promise to make them happy..eventually.
Satanism is the only to promise immediate gratification. Scientology says it will come at some point, Hinduism and native americans think it may come some time in the next few lives, and christianity says it comes after judgement day.

5. Find a means of covertly isolating your people from other religions (if you want)
"though shalt not suffer a witch to live"--christian bible. Exodus, I believe. Scientology says you should not be around those who 'hinder your spiritual growth'
of course, hindus say we are all on the same path, and wiccans are taught to accept everyone, so who knows where to go with this.

6. Create rules for behavior.
Look at any religious text for this.

7. Create symbols of your religion.
Or use someone else's, like Lavayan satanism did.

8. Tell them why they are better then everyone else.
Lavay's satanic bible is like a handjob for your ego. The old testament refers to the hebrews as the chosen people, and scientology anounces certain members 'clear' (though they continue to beat there wives and emotionally abuse others)

9. A charasmatic leader

10. A set of beliefs.

11. A firm group of people to congregate and spread the word. it it not neccessary for this group of people to believe it, but helpful if the ones below them do. the ones who speak most about the religion just believe it.

(source unknown - sorry Alameda, it was sent in an email )

The above post says Hz Mohammed wrote the Koran himself, or with his companions 1400 years ago. This is not a bright new claim. Quite a large number of people have put forward such a claim since the beginning of Islam. However, none of them managed to write such a book when they were asked to do (God says a similar thing in the Koran to those people; Come and try!). Considering advances in computer technology in the 21st century why don't those who make such a claim write a book similar to the Koran, and prove their claim?

Where English speakers say: "It takes a thief to deal with a thief", we say : "Dinsizin hakkindan imansiz gelir." meaning : "It takes a faithless person to deal with an agnostic one." The only time I found this phrase particularly meaningful was when Turkish National Soccer Team beat a tough opponent with a goal scored by Ilhan Mansiz. At that time one of the newspaper headlines read:
"Dinsizin Hakkindan I. Mansiz gelir."

It seems most faithfull people have a problem with those who don't believe. We experience the usual problems associated with being in minority. We cannot get our message through. Our choices about belief are not properly taught in schools and presented as viable options to school children. It is obvious that we non-believers are subjected to a large scale silencing campaign.

Sometimes, people confuse the non-acceptance of something's existence with the acceptance of its non-existence. While the former is only a negation or a rejection, and it is simply a choice. No one could have anything to say or interfere, on the other hand, the latter is a judgment needing proof.

I should add that the part you quoted from him, is something I feel close to, though.

I bought a couple of his books when I was in Istanbul in October but I left the at my friend's home. Good reason to return soon! He has a website too and the Fountain publication is also online. I'm sure you already know though.

Be very careful Qdemir - I would not want you to break the rules of this thread:-

"ADMIN'S NOTE: This thread is only allowed if you speak of your personal thoughts and don't try to persuade or argue with each other or make universal statements about religion and/or who/what is right or wrong. "

I am refraining from giving links to very convincing sites which deny the existance of God

May I just add, that if you ARE religious, that you pray for your God(s) to make a few changes - he has not done such a very good job with his religions or world, has he?

There is no place in the Quran where Muhammad commands Muslims to love people of other religions. By contrast there are at least three dozen verses that tell Muslims to fight against non-Muslims and about 500 that speak of their place in hell. They are from each period in Muhammad's life, scattered across 87 of the Quran's 114 chapters.

To put this in perspective, nearly one out of twelve verses in the Quran says that Allah hates non-Muslims to the extent that he will torment them for eternity in horrible ways. The Suras that make reference to this comprise about 95% of the Quran's total volume. If Allah creates infidels merely to fuel the fires of Hell, then there is little reason for Muslims to believe that such lives are of any worth in this world either.

Do you want me to quote them?

Choice quotes from the hadeth :-

Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Muslim (40:6831) - Non-Muslims in Hell will be given thick skin so as to prolong their agony (before they are given fresh skin for a new round of torture - Sura 4:56).

Bukhari (59:727) - Allah's Apostle [said]... "Allah's curse be on the Jews and the Christians" This was spoken on Muhammad's death bed, and was one of the last things that he ever said.

Ishaq 240 - "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people"

i suggest to take freezers with yourselves

I actually hate raki. I prefer vodka with red bull... I might have to choose a different section of hell.. :-S

Dear Qdemir,
Thank you for your clarification. It seems that it is yet another "translation problem". The same "translation problem" that causes thousands of extremists to behave in the way they do.

May I suggest someone make a CORRECT translation one day? I wonder though....why do arabic countries misunderstand it too?

Yours sincerely,
AEnigma

quoting AEnigma

Unfortunately our only education and dialogue comes from the hatred banners and the wild screams of our British muslim population,

end of quote.


You are so predictable and that statement above is inflammatory, as if you didn't know. You mentioned thread locking earlier, perhaps now is the time.

It makes me laugh how Brits are so "politically correct" and always attack anyone who complains. Yet they remain silent when people come to live in our country and fail to integrate at all into our society or learn the language, and do nothing but talk about the "evil west" and promote extremist and fundamentalist views and actions.

You are their biggest allies!

Peacetrain you look at everything with rose-tinted glasses, because you have a few nice friends who are muslims!! Of course, so do I

But do you never look around you and see what is happening? Do you deny that we have more radical extremist muslims in the UK than in Turkey? Do you deny that we are in more danger from terrorism from our own citizens than from anywhere else in the world?

There is nothing sensationalist in my words. There are MORE non-integrated muslims in the UK, than integrated ones. There are whole parts of our biggest cities taken over by them, they use their OWN doctors, taxis, businesses and have their own social lives. In fact, they live completely separate lives to the rest of the UK, because they see us as evil. Do you deny this?

Qdemir, I dont want to get in any discussion bashing religions or anything. But dont you think the Quran is full of contradictions? I have read several sources upon it, (as a study Islamology at university), and read quoted verses there in Quran. At one point, it asks the Muslims to kill all Christians, but somewhere it writes that Muhammad says that EVERYBODY who says that there is only ONE god (no matter whether you clal it ALlah and believe in his prophet),will go to heaven. It ıs very unclear which things are really meant. No wonder there are a million different groups among Muslims. How is one to know what is true? There are very few people in Turkey who can read Arabic, and if they can, they can only read the ltters and not understand the words. How are they to read the Quran, since its forbidden to read its translation? I am just struggling to get a picture of this complex religion, whose believers are strong defenders of things that I just cant understand.


I am really trying to get an idea of what Islam is. But the more I learn, the more disappointed I get. And it is not because I am anti-religious, I am actually really spiritual. But all that I read, doesnt make me think of a Good Power.

Will give you the last word peace train, because arguing with you is not as much fun as arguing with Qdemir and I am getting sleepy at the thought of more posts...

Zzzzzzzzzzz

Deli_kizin, just sent you a pm concerning your above post.

Pointing out to translation problems Aenigma asks why Quran can't be properly translated and why even Arabs misunderstand it: Arabic is full of equivocal words which produce immensely different meanings in different contexts.
This aspect of the Arabic language is somewhat in line with how Arabs generally are.

To make things more complicated, The Quran was written in Phasih Arabic, almost a separate language not spoken by the masses but vaguely understood. Add to that the fact that, The Qoran was first memorized by certain individuals the credibility of whom was said to be determined by a board of scholars. Some of the verses were eliminated and some were included, the wording depended on how well those people memorized the verses and it did not happen in prophet's life time nor did it happen before some 40-50 years. The Quran was first hand written on gazelle hide and sealed.

In addition to all this, there is a principle in the Islamic Faith called Taqiyye which means if your life is at stake, or if you think you are serving a good purpose such as the spreading of your faith then you are free to tell lies.

No one knows, what is true from an Islamic point of view (turban included) whether it is a taquiyye, translation problem or lack of IQ to properly understand it.

Thanks for the straight forward post Handsom. It's much appreciated. I've learned quite a lot about the strength of feeling that prevails in Turkey regarding various issues. A good discussion about Gulen would be enlightening to read. I wonder if anyone will oblige . . .

On a lighter note, me thinks you are jealous of his looks and his ability to fake. But there is hope for you, you have more hair

If your life or life of a member of your family is under threat just because of your faith, you are allowed to hide your faith, or you are allowed to say as opposed to whay you actually believe.
This is called 'takiyye' in Islam.

One of the companions of Hz Mohammed, Ammar and his parents were tortured by non-believers as he became a Muslim. He was forced to denial of his belief by torturing his father and mother heavily. His father and mother died of severe torture. As he was exposed to excruciating torture he said what he was asked for by non-believers. However, it was just a denial in words, but not one from the heart. Hz Mohammed told him if he was exposed to such a torture again he would say in the same way.

If your properties or money are under threat you are allowed to tell lies.
This is also called 'takiyye'

Nobody tells the truth when they are threatened by robbers. It wouldn't be wise just for sake of telling the truth.

Takiyye doesn't mean you are allowed to tell lies about issues related to Islam in order to spread your belief.

Every thing is distinctly stated in the Koran. Nobody is allowed, or licensed to state otherwise.

Takiyye isn't one of the principles or prays in Islam, but just a permission to tell such lies to save your life, properties, money, etc. in such cases.

kadersokak,
its not that innocent with cheating as you describe above. it is allowed at any time under any circumstnces.
and one of the names of allah is a great deceiver. just wonderful!
while other two religions dont allow such behaviour.

i guess islam is the only religion that obsessively defends itself even using lies.

In Islam women don't perform their daily prayers when they are on menstruation period because a woman who is menstruating can't keep ablution as blood keeps flowing from her body on her period. Ablution is a prerequisite for a prayer. And they aren't obliged to make up those prayers they missed during their periods.

That's not because menstruation is considered dirty or blood is impure. Ablution is not only getting clean physically but also getting ready spiritually for a prayer.
And there are some principles to keep an ablution. One of them is; you mustn't bleed in any way.

what is the aim of this thread? to determine how good or bad islam is?

It is specifically to annoy you Ciko

You got me Qdemir? Perhaps you missed my response to your kind offer

Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting qdemir: If you would like, I can recommend you one. I have an idea that your recommended one would be the preferred translation of Fethulla Gulen - maybe a nice "soft" version for converting westerners!!

i really really wonder didnt you islam proffesors read anything beautiful in qoran i would like to hear something nice about islam from you for only once

Oh, by the way, I'm not defending or promoting Catholicism, I'm an atheist so I'm gonna burn in hell anyway...

Now I am a bit confused qdemir.
previously you wrote that :
"Every thing is distinctly stated in the Koran. Nobody is allowed, or licensed to state otherwise."
I assumed that takkiye is in Koran itself.
The event you are mentioning, thinking about the time scale, happened after Islam's creation. I mean Kuran was already there and Mohammad was the prophet. (Because his friend was a believer-believing in Islam- had been tortured by non-believers etc)

If takkiye is in Kuran, are you suggesting that 'that incident' had happened and God sent that a new verse because of that event?
Or takkiye is not in Kuran itself?

ps..I am really trying to understand the timescale of it..I am not trying insinuate anything.

btw, what allah has prepared for women in the jannah?

Back in the 80's, I was representing an American publication and had a guest from Saudi Arabia. I took him to a nice bar in the center of Taksim (Etap Marmara), and we began discussing Turkey, Islam. He said Turkey was going through all these economic problems because Turks had betrayed Islam. The guy was holding a glass of whiskey on the rocks and cursing Ataturk and his reforms. Of course, he wanted me to help him arrange a woman for that night. Now, if this is not takiyye or whatever it is a tell tale sign of how immature these medieval people are.

I believe it's only Islam that gives people explicit directions about every area of their lives.