Quoting azade:

Alpha seeing you is like looking at a piece of history, "politic views of the previous century, protecting the homeland?".

Quoting AlphaF:

Which item(s) of the Manifesto disturbs you?

Quoting AlphaF:

Global world, yes.
But not as led by neocons.

Stop talking in vague sentences...I would appreciate if I knew which items of my manifesto is disturbing to Turks of different opinions.......

Quoting AlphaF:

1. Anyone who is telling Turks that Ataturk's time is over, his pictures should be removed from display and he should be forgotten

Quoting AEnigma III:

Point 2 - Turkish nationalists should seriously re-think the size of their moustaches

Quoting Waseem_UK:

What a Topic... Welcome to Turkish Class...students! A good lesson about Turkish Nationalism here...? This thread should be wiped. Seems to be exclusively filled with hate, or is it politics?

Quoting Waseem_UK:

What a Topic... Welcome to Turkish Class...students! A good lesson about Turkish Nationalism here...? This thread should be wiped. Seems to be exclusively filled with hate, or is it politics?

Quoting AlphaF:

My manifesto, though seems light hearted and though may be objectionable to some, clearly adresses most major issues in Turkia today...without any uncertain statements and leaving no doubt to my philosopy.

Do not bother writing insincere remarks, asking peanut questions - unless you have the heart for it.

What do you want? A full doctorate course?
Are you ashamed or scared to say what you think?...You probably are!..

Quoting AlphaF:

Why do you think all this crap flows in and nobody dare offer a counterview, a different opinion on any of the points there, except my dear partner.. You, yourself, offered an honest objection in no uncertain terms; did my reply hurt?

Quoting AlphaF:

What some people here want is to be able to mutter somethings in the dark, without giving away their true colors. No honesty, no self respect......

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting AlphaF:

CAN YOU NOT TELL WHAT IT IS THAT DISTURBS YOU?

Quoting azade:

Alpha seeing you is like looking at a piece of history, "politicAL (edit, ehem) views of the previous century, protecting the homeland?".

Are you denying that we live in a globalized world?

Quoting AlphaF:

2. Anyone who says Ataturk's revolutions were works of a dictator, not necessarily according to public wishes

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting AlphaF:

That definitely gives you the right to disagree with me on any subject, at you own will and pleasure.

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting AlphaF:

When he died, he left everything he owned in life to Turkish Nation, excep for a minor sum he allocated to some kids he was taking care of.

For lack of further funds, he actually had a request (in his will) from people of Turkia, that Turks should care for the family Mr. Ismet Inonu (one of his friends, prime ministers and close comrade-in-arms), should they ever be in need of such support.

Quoting AEnigma III:

I must confess it is rather strange to have opposing views with someone on Turkish Class without them resorting to insulting me

Quoting AlphaF:

For that, you should give the merit to yourself...

Quoting SuiGeneris:

One question!

If we do not have that moustache, cant we agree/support on these lines?

Quoting SuiGeneris:

One question!

If we do not have that moustache, cant we agree/support on these lines?


Though i have problems with liking Ismet Inonu...

Quoting AlphaF:

but he was not as bright as Ataturk and he made some serious mistakes.

Quoting AlphaF:

Quoting AlphaF:

Revised to include a special item on dudus....



For us, fiercely moustached Turkish Nationalists (not to be confused with racists), life is simple...

1. Anyone who is telling Turks that Ataturk's time is over, his pictures should be removed from display and he should be forgotten,
his time is over, in a way to say that he passed away.
he should never be forgotten. the contributions he made were essential for Turkia. And worth to be continued in a way that to develop the country. his ideas and achievements need to be taken as a foundation in further openings.
2. Anyone who says Ataturk's revolutions were works of a dictator, not necessarily according to public wishes,
from the very little i know, his works were - taken in generally benefic. might he had oposing public wishes... a country must be very difficult to lead. ))) sometimes sacrifices have to be done.
here is a review i found interesting. i know few of Ataturk's life, deeds and the whole political and historical conjuncture.

ATATURK

by Andrew Mango

Woodstock, N.Y.: Overlook, 2000. 666 pp. $40

Middle East Quarterly
March 2000

Reviewed by Daniel Pipes

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1881-1938), one of the great political figures of the twentieth century, has not been the subject of a full-scale biography in English since one published by Lord Kinross in 1964. The author, Istanbul-born and a writer on things Turkish, has produced far and away the best biography of Atatürk in English, one boasting solid research, fine presentation, and sensible judgments. The result is a more textured and complex picture than hitherto available.

Mango skillfully captures the themes of his tale. "Atatürk was a competent commander, a shrewd politician, a statesman of supreme realism. But above all he was a man of the Enlightenment. And the Enlightenment was not made by saints." "Atatürk was often described as a dictator - a description he hated above all others. It was, in fact, inappropriate, for he behaved not like a modern dictator, but like a latter-day king, who had delegated government to his chief minister, and then sought to amuse himself as best he could." Atatürk emerges from this biography as resolute yet contradictory. He forwarded women's rights but in his private life "could not accept women as equals." He was a devoted rationalist but invented "fantastic historical and linguistic theories."

Mango concludes with an assessment of the Atatürk experiment that bears quoting for its succinct insight and enduring message: "Atatürk's message is that East and West can meet on the ground of universal secular values and mutual respect, that nationalism is compatible with peace, that human reason is the only true guide in life. It is an optimistic message and its validity will always be in doubt. But it is an ideal that commands respect."

3. Anyone who advocates that Turks should go back to their Ottoman roots, ie. use Ottoman language, adopt Ottoman dress code etc.
why should Turkia go back?
4. Anyone who says being the free citizen of a republic and the follower of a religious belief are two concepts in competition, and Turks should obviously prefer the latter,
the concepts are not in competition.
5. Anyone who preaches that the people in Turkia are from different ethnic groups, and that they should be allowed to separate themselves from the unity...like small pebbles from a mozaic. PKK supportes.
different ethnicities are different ethnicities. they are smole pieces of a mosaic. that is diversity. in unity, as it is called. mosaics are beautiful... i am not aware of what the PKK supporters do and say. (under developement)
6. Any coward (ablebodied, male citizen) who flees the country, when it is his turn to serve in the Army,
if the army is no other way, but an education for those who does not have means to that, it is beneficial. some people learn to wash their clothes there( sorry, it is what a high employee told me... officer?), have discipline... as i was told. now, army might not offer proper conditions, either. i do not think that neither sticking in a place 1.5 years necessary improves a person(in Romania, for ex, some came home with ulcer...), nor that the way armies are equipped nowadays compulsory service would mean a major contribution to the safety of the country. responsibility can be assumed in many ways. the best should be a non-compulsory military service. why not serving civil duties? planting trees, helping disabled? in my opinion, this is also a worthy contribution. this should be compulsory. i think if someone flees responsibilities of life, or being human and just in the meantime, that is condemnable. Armies should introduce civil services, in my opinion. There will always be men fleeing away from army.
7. Anyone who suggests that Turkia should stop being a nation-state and becomes a part of the merry Global crowd,
isn't Turkia part of the global merry crowd? ))) merry crowd. either way, it is a state part of a global "crowd" of states. extend what you have said about the pieces of mosaic. and here we are. what makes the difference? the way you take part in that crowd... what influence do you have, how far it goes, what do you offer to the citizens of your country, how you coop in resolving internal and external conflicts, balancing your own welfare with the global one.
something puzzles me in this. i think the nation state term. nation means that is a group sharing common cultural heritage, common values. a multicultural nation? for example, lutherans are good citizens, but they will not whirl three times round the table the way catholics do(rituals). this is also part of a heritage. if hungarians, they will have different motives on pottery than romanians. yet, they are the members of the same country, co-nationals.
8. Anyone who preaches EU is the only life saving option open to Turkia and strives for membership - even at the cost of national soveregnity and pride,
(chapter under development and reading. at a first glance i would say that, due to it's position adherence to EU is not the only solution for Turkey.).

9. Anyone trying to sell a different religion to Turkish citizens; missionaries of all kinds, operating under veils,
in Romania sects have extended. in what ways? between other things, they went even in isolated mountain village and preached the people. more then that, they helped the poor. they encourage collectivity, common interests and mutual help. Orthodox priests did not much thing in their mandate (as they are, in a way to say "invested"). many times they just accepted gifts, respect without doing much of a thing to their religious community. this created a pre-condition to desert religion. the second was they offered money. people need better financial state and to learn how to make their lives better. then again, if religion is a matter of choice... i think this should relate very much on the personal belief. a good believer had belief in the heart. religion always mixed political and social interests and comes to define identity. still does. hence the reprobation at missionaries. missionaries existed and will exist. and probably there exist methods in avoiding this. one of them should be tie the belief to the heart.(my idealist view here) religions should not be sold... yet they are.
10. Anyone who supports those who intend to replace the current democratic and secular republic with an Islamic mode of government (whether of fundamentalist, or soft kind),
taking number four, this is not a good choice. it looks like a trap. religions have not been reformed. hence, there are some dangers. spiritual should reflect in conducts in everyday life. fundamentalism, in my opinion, is also not a good choice.
11. Anyone who fancies himself to be ethnically of pure Turkish blood, hence imagines that he is superior to all other etnic citizen groups in Turkia, or that he is a better patriot,
so there are ethnicities. all this terminology((... Citizenship gives you rights and restrictions. one of the restrictions should be (and legally is) the referring to a so called superiority in blood. this reminds me many jews bought noble titles... counts i think (these were "buyable" titles)
12. Anyone who likes to sing false songs about Armenian misfortunes, but demands a down payment of 14 billion dollars to start discussing realities in historical terms,
(not aware of the whole situation of the Armenian killing, but there are also always good ways to ask for some money)
13. Any creep who approaches love stricken Western Ladies with intentions to cheat them out of their money, telephones, laptops or gold ear rings, whatever (dudu),
i like point 13. it is a personal statement of integrity which tells that the first 12 are a mixture of beliefs, values, terminologies, facts that belong to political philosophy, and are of big importance in developing national strategies, social conducts and applying terminologies to these. if you ask me, this post is a bubby trap.))) what i like is the way ideas were switched and connected here. a beautiful mind.
not any inloved lady or gentlemen should be approached with the mere intention of cheating. cheating is morally and legally condemnable. love has several levels. treat it like a pleasure of life, like a miracle, like a long term investment, like a shrine yet/but/and love always deserves the best. and energy, and time, devotion, raising mutual interests, learning, effort.

is not our friend....

Quoting AlphaF:

The revolution that Ataturk started died out, immediately after he was murdered...

Quoting portokal:

Quoting azade:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting azade: Quoting AlphaF: The revolution that Ataturk started died out, immediately after he was murdered... And when exactly was it that Atatürk was murdered..?

Quoting AlphaF:

Quoting peace train:

Portokal,

Are these your own words? I only aske because your command of English has come on in leaps and bounds all in one day.

Quoting AEnigma III:

You know very well that what disturbs people is that you are speaking your mind!! You are supposed to hide your real thoughts behind a mask of political correctness

Quoting portokal:

Quoting peace train:

I wasn't referring to your opinion Portokal. I was referring to your writing style in that particular post. It is very different to your usual style, and indeed different to you reply to me, and the grammar is almost perfect. I thought perhaps you were quoting somebody and had forgotten to give the source. Actually the style seems familiar. Oh well perhaps you simply got help from a friend, no harm in that.

take care

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting catwoman:

Maybe that was over-interpreting, but a perfect example of peace train being sanctimonious? :-S I think that you and Aenigma are just not as good mind readers as you think you are.

Quoting catwoman:

Those radicals in your country Aenigma, also speak their minds, are they also on your A-list?

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AlphaF: Quoting AEnigma III: I must confess it is rather strange to have opposing views with someone on Turkish Class without them resorting to insulting me For that, you should give the merit to yourself...

Quoting catwoman:

Maybe that was over-interpreting, but a perfect example of peace train being sanctimonious? :-S I think that you and Aenigma are just not as good mind readers as you think you are.

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting peace train:

I plead insanity. I don't think there are any "lawyers" on this site, only a few puppeteers. I feel a new thread coming on . . . "Who is working who?"

Quoting peace train:

Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting catwoman: Maybe that was over-interpreting, but a perfect example of peace train being sanctimonious? :-S I think that you and Aenigma are just not as good mind readers as you think you are. Are you peace train's lawyer? You seem to do a better job defending her than I ever did for Femme (to your obvious disgust!!!!) Maybe only stealth mode members are allowed to defend others?

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting catwoman: Quoting AlphaF: Quoting AEnigma III: I must confess it is rather strange to have opposing views with someone on Turkish Class without them resorting to insulting me For that, you should give the merit to yourself... You do make a beautiful couple AlphaF & AEnigmaIII... both start with an A and end with capitals, Aenigma a bit fatter, Alpha a "bit" older. Wisdom and beauty finally meets, like in "beauty and the beast"?

Quoting AlphaF:

She definitely has a soft spot for me partner !

Notice, I am only just "a bit" older?

Quoting AlphaF:

Quoting peace train: Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting catwoman: Maybe that was over-interpreting, but a perfect example of peace train being sanctimonious? :-S I think that you and Aenigma are just not as good mind readers as you think you are. Are you peace train's lawyer? You seem to do a better job defending her than I ever did for Femme (to your obvious disgust!!!!) Maybe only stealth mode members are allowed to defend others? I don't have a lawyer, I plead insanity. I don't think there are any "lawyers" on this site, only a few puppeteers. I feel a new thread coming on . . . "Who is working who?"

Quoting AlphaF:

She definitely has a soft spot for me partner !

Notice, I am only just "a bit" older? Should I be alarmed?

Quoting AlphaF:

Where were you trained peace-train?

Quoting portokal:

Quoting AEnigma III:

You are displaying symptoms of paranoia and an unhealthy obsession with me! I agree - I think you need therapy

Quoting catwoman:

Canim, it's more like you displaying an unhealthy obsession with yourself. On top of that, you see things...

Quoting AEnigma III:

Are you peace train's lawyer? You seem to do a better job defending her than I ever did for Femme (to your obvious disgust!!!!)

Maybe only stealth mode members are allowed to defend others?

Quoting AEnigma III:

I look foward to your nightly activity of passing comment on 60% of my posts, but decline to reply anymore

Quoting AEnigma III:

Anyway, it is nice to see you proved my original point

Quoting portokal:

MANIFESTO

Hereby I put into writing my fundamentals and strategic directions to be followed in a nation state, in accordance to policies and legislation.

1. Ataturk’s time is not over, his pictures are on the display, deeds remembered.
2. Ataturk is not a dictator, revolutions were in accordance with public wishes.
3. there is no returning to Ottoman cultural habits and no advocacy towards that.
4. a home is the secular state where religion melts with policy perfectly yet being separate. love penetrates in everyday, everyday penetrates love through duties.
5. no separatism is acceptable
6. Army services are of highest duty to citizens.
7. There is the Nation State and there is the Global merry crowd. Citizens find joy in the State.
8.national sovereignty and pride are coming above all.
9. citizens of the national state will not buy from missionaries.
10 no to fundamentalism or soft dictatorship tendencies.
11. no to individualism and self-praising tendencies.
12. there were no Armenian misfortunes; leasing methods are preferred.
13. beauty and wisdom are shared, mutual and reciprocal.

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quote:

Quote:

Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting portokal: Portokal, is the extent of your politics only that which your friend Alpha has taught you? no...

Quote:

Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting portokal: Portokal, is the extent of your politics only that which your friend Alpha has taught you? no...

Quoting portokal:

9. citizens of the national state will not buy from missionaries.
10 no to fundamentalism or soft dictatorship tendencies.
11. no to individualism and self-praising tendencies.

Quoting AEnigma III:

It is strange you became a Turkish Nationalist without even being Turkish

Quoting AEnigma III:

Also, could you explain Point 7 to me. It is a little unclear. What exactly do you mean?

"Citizens find joy in the state" meaning what?

You mean they want to cut themselves off from the "global merry crowd" completely? Do they not need US money anymore?

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Portokal?

Quoting azade:

Anaaaamm! Manyak misin sen, deli misin neyisin sen?

You're probably a lost case, otherwise I would google around to document that you are wrong.

Quoting portokal:

if you do not have principles to respect, what do you have besides appartenance and heart affiliation?
i do not think that doing things that have to be done, or having a walk, or a night in Kumkapi is stepping over principles.
what is basic is the need to keep clean, to agree, to decide democratic. and with wisdom.

Quote:

Quoting thehandsom: Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting portokal: Portokal, is the extent of your politics only that which your friend Alpha has taught you? no... It is strange you became a Turkish Nationalist without even being Turkish

Quoting azade:

Quoting azade:

Your rules are quite specific and limiting the individual so my question is still, how is that democratic?

Quote:

Quoting peace train: Quoting thehandsom: Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting portokal: Portokal, is the extent of your politics only that which your friend Alpha has taught you? no... It is strange you became a Turkish Nationalist without even being Turkish She is not the only one, I think..

Quoting peace train:

There's a long queue of ladies lining up to surrender their TC passwords... it's quicker than signing up for training. I said he looked good in red.

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Werent you the one I pmd with about some sort of goth-like art personal picture, quite some time ago, Portokal?

Quoting portokal:

and weren't you the one who did not answer at a pm from a romanian young lady which i told to put her inquiries to you regarding university in turkey?

Quoting Deli_kizin:

why dont you come to the Netherlands Lots of choice here and aaaaaalll legal.

Quoting catwoman:

Portokal.... are you smoking the same plant as you were the other day?

Quoting catwoman:

oh..... those were the days....

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting portokal:

right now i am having a rubeddenciopis gulinata.
you have this one also? and is legal?

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting peace train:

nah it was sarcasm, pure and simple.

oh and I was being condescending and patronizing, not sanctimonious .

oops I'm doing it again, I'll go and sit on the naughty step.

Feel free to reply. It will fall on deaf ears.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

This is why I am up so late, I daren'y go to bed because I know when I wake I will be sanctimonious again. Perhaps the Mods will allow me dual membership, then I can have two personalities.

Quoting catwoman:

It's ok to be patronizing, condescending, arrogant, mysogynist, demeaning, racist, but don't you dare being sanctimonious!!!!!

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting peace train:

nah it was sarcasm, pure and simple.

oh and I was being condescending and patronizing, not sanctimonious .

oops I'm doing it again, I'll go and sit on the naughty step.

Feel free to reply. It will fall on deaf ears.

Quoting girleegirl:

And cat...I'm surprised by your consistent defense of peace train. The only difference between her and femme is that femme was direct and to the point in her comments whereas peace train just hides behind this 'oh-gosh-it's-just-poor-little-ol-me' persona.
Give me 'in-your-face' anyday.

Quoting catwoman:

You are confusing something here GG. I'm not defending Peace Train, I'm stating my opinions about what I read! You can post your opinions and I can post mine, why is it so surprising that we happen to disagree??? Apparently I haven't noticed the PT's 'oh-gosh-it's-just-poor-little-ol-me' persona.

Quoting girleegirl:

Of course you can post your opinions (which, I think you know, many times I agree with)!!!! My point here is that it seems that you have been jumping in on any post in which peace train's arrogance is called in to question. So it would appear...in my opinion....that you are consistently defending her. I guess it surprises me because I just find the 'oh gosh' persona so blatant.
Can we agree to disagree?

Quoting catwoman:

I don't want to argue about it,

Quoting catwoman:

I still like you GG.

Quoting girleegirl: