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GAZZE - WHAT IS GOING ON ?
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1.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:33 pm

GAZZE is a small town in which about 1.5 million Arabs are ransomed by Israel..There is an Israeli wall around the city, there is no electricity, there is no water, there is not enough food, medical supplies are non existent.

People in Gazze have torn this wall of shame down and gained temporary access to Egypt few days ago.

US stepped in and forced Egyptian authorities to close this entry into Egypt. Egyptian Army and police have done exactly as ordered and are now stopping and severely beating up their own brethen - who is only after their most basic needs.

Perhaps some of you think, people of Gazze deserve this....

Anyone?

2.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:43 pm

Ofcourse noone deserves a behaviour to be in like a zoo...

I dont read much about the "what is going on in Gazze", only what i see on the news of CNN Turk and NTV and the web portal of NTV...

On the other hand, i have some points that i cannot ever accept in arabic culture, which is the very modified version of Islam and which makes other people think bad and unrelated thoughts about Islam...

But ofcourse we have to go very far deep into this topic to find out who deserves what, however for sure we cannot decide this so easily, and even if we do, it wont go far more than just making ourselves busy....


But indeed, this is very interesting and serious 'Topic' but i dont see anything close about this topic with Turkia.

You could post this under News and Annoucements part i guess...

3.       farukdemirhan
41 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:48 pm

i wish this topic have the largest amount of replies...

we r living kind of shame life , that we r even cant say that the people in Gazzah r suffering ...

here we r in need just for a word from u TC's friends..
We r not brave to do ...at least we should be brave to say that


WE R WITH U GAZZAH'S PEOPLE*



ANYONE?

4.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:48 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

But indeed, this is very interesting and serious 'Topic' but i dont see anything close about this topic with Turkia.

You could post this under News and Annoucements part i guess...



Sadly it seems people don't care WHERE they post things Sui, so I gave up mentioning it.

I think even News and Announcements is for Turkish related topics....such as "SuiGeneris' Birthday" or "Sui goes to Austria"...stuff like that

5.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:48 pm

Sui, we shall use that forum for your wedding announcements. Until then, mind your own bussiness...

6.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:51 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Sui, we shall use that forum for your wedding announcement. Until then, mind your own bussiness...



I see you abit angry Father, you have no right to tell anyone or anybody here what to do or what to tell... Why dont you accept when people you talk are right?

And please dont contradict with yourself...

7.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:52 pm

SUI IS GETTING MARRIED!!!!
Congratulations SG

8.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:54 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

SUI IS GETTING MARRIED!!!!
Congratulations SG



In your dreams only
I am too old for that i am afraid

9.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:56 pm

Quoting farukdemirhan:

i wish this topic have the largest amount of replies...

we r living kind of shame life , that we r even cant say that the people in Gazzah r suffering ...

here we r in need just for a word from u TC's friends..
We r not brave to do ...at least we should be brave to say that


WE R WITH U GAZZAH'S PEOPLE*



ANYONE?



I have checked your profile Faruk,

And i see you are living in Dubai...

So how many people in Dubai really care people in Gazzah?

only you?

10.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 12:58 pm

Start counting Faruk.....This is what Sui has to say on this issue and Sui demands a reply )))))))))))))

11.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:01 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Start counting Faruk.....Sui demands a reply )))))))))))))



I am sure i am not the only who told you that you are so funny )))))

12.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:05 pm

You are definitely funnier...Pathetic !

13.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:07 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

You are definitely funnier...Pathetic !



Keep your feelings for people in Gazzah! I am really sure you care them...

Anyway... why dont you tell us... what you think about what they deserve? or at least your opinions?
I will be really glad to read them...

14.       ciko
784 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:09 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Ofcourse noone deserves a behaviour to be in like a zoo...

I dont read much about the 'what is going on in Gazze', only what i see on the news of CNN Turk and NTV and the web portal of NTV...

On the other hand, i have some points that i cannot ever accept in arabic culture, which is the very modified version of Islam and which makes other people think bad and unrelated thoughts about Islam...

But ofcourse we have to go very far deep into this topic to find out who deserves what, however for sure we cannot decide this so easily, and even if we do, it wont go far more than just making ourselves busy....


But indeed, this is very interesting and serious 'Topic' but i dont see anything close about this topic with Turkia.

You could post this under News and Annoucements part i guess...



what the hell you are talking about!!!!!!
who told you anything about arabic culture? it was about 2 million people under danger...and some of them may starve soon..but you say ' ohh this is not very interesting and serious and close topic to turkia!!!! tell me how many posts you send about turkia? are the prostitutes in mexico about turkey? is the fight between aenigma and libra about turkey?..only a few of threads are about turkey in this site!!! you dont have to post if you have such a hatred on arabs!

15.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:10 pm

Sui,

I dont think you can understand....
I shall not bother with you anymore...

16.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:12 pm

Quoting ciko:

is the fight between aenigma and libra about turkey?..only a few of threads are about turkey in this site!!!



Hey! That is below the belt!!! lol
Actually Ciko, you will notice that the "fight" thread is under OFF TOPIC and this thread is under TURKEY. That is all SG was saying.

Calm down everyone!

17.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:15 pm

Quoting ciko:


what the hell you are talking about!!!!!!
who told you anything about arabic culture? it was about 2 million people under danger...and some of them may starve soon..but you say ' ohh this is not very interesting and serious and close topic to turkia!!!! tell me how many posts you send about turkia? are the prostitutes in mexico about turkey? is the fight between aenigma and libra about turkey?..only a few of threads are about turkey in this site!!! you dont have to post if you have such a hatred on arabs!



What i am doing or what i have done are not related to what i can say or do, first of all.

Secondly what i know about arabic culture is about what i see about what they are doing... Tell me is that real the affect of Islam over arabs, to have the luxury one side and the other hand the poor people?

And also you were in those threads aswell Ciko... Calm down first and speak your mind...

and i am not gonna ask you what did you post about Turkey aswell... this is nonsense to argue in a way, you did so and i did in other way...


If you know something tell!! and enlight me! dont leave with the questions only...
Always delighted to read something contains information...

18.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:17 pm

Be honest partner...do not lose your credibility..
Sui mumbled more than you claim....

He should have waited to be enlightened, before he started mumbling...

19.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:19 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Sui,

I dont think you can understand....
I shall not bother with you anymore...



Look AlphaF,

Sometimes you say great things that i say "vay be"
But sometimes you are not doing this...

So why dont you share... why the state Gazzah like this, or why the other things are on this way...

I am really sad for people there... wish i could be help... (maybe later i will)

But again i say, i would like to hear what you think...

20.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:22 pm

Ok apologizes for "mumbling"...

Waiting to be enlightened... patiently...

21.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:23 pm

Sui...here is a homework for you...

Read up on the subject and present this group with an enlightening report on the subject.

That should stop you from starting unnecesarry discusssions, on subjects you know very little about...

Send me an invitation to your wedding !

22.       ciko
784 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:25 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Quoting ciko:


what the hell you are talking about!!!!!!
who told you anything about arabic culture? it was about 2 million people under danger...and some of them may starve soon..but you say ' ohh this is not very interesting and serious and close topic to turkia!!!! tell me how many posts you send about turkia? are the prostitutes in mexico about turkey? is the fight between aenigma and libra about turkey?..only a few of threads are about turkey in this site!!! you dont have to post if you have such a hatred on arabs!



What i am doing or what i have done are not related to what i can say or do, first of all.

Secondly what i know about arabic culture is about what i see about what they are doing... Tell me is that real the affect of Islam over arabs, to have the luxury one side and the other hand the poor people?

And also you were in those threads aswell Ciko... Calm down first and speak your mind...

and i am not gonna ask you what did you post about Turkey aswell... this is nonsense to argue in a way, you did so and i did in other way...


If you know something tell!! and enlight me! dont leave with the questions only...
Always delighted to read something contains information...



i know i was in same threads but i didnt blame you for posting in those threads..

and what you know about arabic culture is 1% of it anyway i wont defend arabs here but i can enlighten you about what has been happening in Palestine for 50 years if you want.

23.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:26 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Sui...here is a homework for you...

Read up on the subject and present this group with an enlightening report on the subject.

That should stop you from starting unnecesarry discusssions, on subjects you know very little about...

Send me an invitation to your wedding !



When there is no information... nothing to read...

And you are welcome to wedding or anyother thing i will do in public...

Were you in Solar Car Races this summer in Ankara?

24.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:31 pm

Quoting ciko:


i know i was in same threads but i didnt blame you for posting in those threads..

and what you know about arabic culture is 1% of it anyway i wont defend arabs here but i can enlighten you about what has been happening in Palestine for 50 years if you want.



Look Ciko, Arabic culture can be rich in its past, like the same other cultures,

But come to the 21st century...what you see?? you can see that for Turkish people aswell if you look at the istiklal and see the changes... this is the result of the time and period...

What i say is not related to different cultures one by one... its for humanbeing... i guess you understand what i mean...

And i did ask you to say what you know... please waiting for you...
and one more thing... it was me and a few friends in High School doing presentations about whats going on in Mid East while the others were doing about other things...

25.       farukdemirhan
41 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:39 pm

sui,all cares here but u should ask who can be brave to talk..
A war here !!!,, maybe the issue is nothing to do with turkey but at least she did something for gazzah's ppls at the time we didn't
WElldone

26.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:43 pm

Quoting farukdemirhan:

sui,all cares here but u should ask who can be brave to talk..
A war here !!!,, maybe the issue is nothing to do with turkey but at least she did something for gazzah's ppls at the time we didn't
WElldone



You dont see my point! the talk of the people in streets wont be a help to the people in Gazzah!

What would be the help to the people in Gazzah is this:
The riches of the Dubai.. I am sure there are alot! will keep some of their pocket money they give to their child for the people in Gazzah! or they should have melt the golds in that 7 starred hotel and send that money to the people in Gazzah...

Now do you understand me?

27.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:45 pm

As far as I heard and read in Dutch newspapers, the Egyptian government as well as the people were not bothered by the people buying food. As long as THEY are not bothered, then what has US got to do with it, making people stop to provide in their basic needs?

28.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:46 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

You dont see my point! the talk of the people in streets wont be a help to the people in Gazzah!



Offfffffff Sui you have said this to me before here "talking about something will not change it". It is a "head in the sand" way of thinking. Talking about such things is healthy and .... actually in some cases, can bring about change (maybe not on turkish class!!!).

29.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:49 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

You dont see my point! the talk of the people in streets wont be a help to the people in Gazzah!



Offfffffff Sui you have said this to me before here "talking about something will not change it". It is a "head in the sand" way of thinking. Talking about such things is healthy and .... actually in some cases, can bring about change (maybe not on turkish class!!!).



Please will you read the rest of it aswell?
Talking "only" is what the politicians do... and its bare truth... talk and do something aswell...

30.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 01:52 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

You dont see my point! the talk of the people in streets wont be a help to the people in Gazzah!



Offfffffff Sui you have said this to me before here "talking about something will not change it". It is a "head in the sand" way of thinking. Talking about such things is healthy and .... actually in some cases, can bring about change (maybe not on turkish class!!!).



Please will you read the rest of it aswell?
Talking "only" is what the politicians do... and its bare truth... talk and do something aswell...



Of course I read the rest of your post. However, you cannot change my mind to your opinion that you should not talk about something unless you can change it.

31.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 Jan 2008 Sat 02:02 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

You dont see my point! the talk of the people in streets wont be a help to the people in Gazzah!



Offfffffff Sui you have said this to me before here "talking about something will not change it". It is a "head in the sand" way of thinking. Talking about such things is healthy and .... actually in some cases, can bring about change (maybe not on turkish class!!!).



Please will you read the rest of it aswell?
Talking "only" is what the politicians do... and its bare truth... talk and do something aswell...


Of course I read the rest of your post. However, you cannot change my mind to your opinion that you should not talk about something unless you can change it.



What we do is already "talking" i thought we always talk...

So what do you think about Gazzah?

32.       teaschip
3870 posts
 28 Jan 2008 Mon 10:27 pm

It's a border breach, an open border in Egypt is concerning. I agree something has to be done for the suffering, however Egypt is reluctant to have an open border with a territory rule by Islamic militants, rightfully so..The US never forced the Egyptian authorities....

However, Egypt is after all an Arab country, the Palestinians' elder sister, which connects them to the Arab world historically. Egypt has good relations with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Egypt had control over Gaza until 40 years ago. In Gaza, Arabic is spoken with an Egyptian accent. Why then, should the burden fall on the shoulders of Israel, the Palestinians' enemy, of all countries?

Egypt should have no doubt that the terror regime in Gaza will impact the entire Sinai Peninsula, and ultimately Cairo as well. The Egyptians must understand that there are no more excuses and that now they are obliged to act: Prevent arms from flowing into Gaza, while entering the Strip and getting increasingly involved.

I believe some responsibility for restoring order lies with Egypt. These people need some form of help..











33.       CANLI
5084 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 01:04 am

Because Israel caused it ?
Because İsrael has NO right to be in Gazzah or in all Palestin ?
Maybe that is reason enough why the burden should lay on İsrael..

We help them alright because they are our neighbours,our brothers and sisters..
But no,to carry the responsibility..NO

Because that is exactly what İsrael and US want us to do..

For those who forget,or who dont know,Gazzah is PART of Palestin,and will always be
İf we accept what they want us to do,by time İsrael will seperat it from Palestin,and as obvious that is what its tring to do already
Gazzah is pain in İsrael's.. body,and its trying to get rid of it,so it wont have any headache of people who wants their lands back or fight for it.
İt planted hate already between them,between brothers 'and Palestainians were naive enough and took the bait' but that wasnt enough,and Gazzah still pain ,so now trying to kill them,to kick them out,and wait for anyone to help them !

So NO...
We will help,but they STİLL have their homes back in Gazzah,in Palestine
GAZZAH is part of Palestine,and Palestine will always exist..and wont die that easy,and we wont be part of that game too.
So...better live with that !

''Wednesday, the border city of Rafah and its neighbouring city of Arish were inundated with Palestinians who managed to pass the border. Hours later, a spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry berated Egypt for allowing the Palestinians to exit Gaza. Israel said it would deny Gaza emergency fuel supplies it had earlier promised. But according to Egyptian security sources onsite, when the protesters broke through at dawn Wednesday there was no way that Egyptian security would repel them with armed force. "It was simply out of the question," commented one security source.''

''Wednesday, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak told reporters that at dawn he ordered Egyptian security forces stationed in Rafah to allow Palestinian crowds to enter Egyptian territory and "allow them to buy their basic needs and go back to Gaza -- as long as they are not carrying arms or anything illegal". Eyewitnesses in Rafah and Arish tell the Weekly that many Palestinians are doing exactly that. "Some keep coming and going back to carry more commodities. They carry so much. It looks horrible," commented one Arish resident. According to some accounts, hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians are renting flats -- sometimes shared -- to stay in Arish for an indefinite period. ''

''Egyptian official sources reveal that there has been US and Israeli protests over the breach of the Rafah crossing. However, they say that Cairo is not in a position to force any Palestinian to return. Egypt, they acknowledge, already has a bad image with the citizens of Gaza and their political leadership''

AlAhram Weekly

34.       teaschip
3870 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 05:20 pm

Egypt occupied Gaza from 1948 to 1967. However when Israel and Egypt signed their peace treaty in 1979, in which Egypt got back much of their land lost in the 1967 war, they didn’t push the issue to get Gaza back. Why not? Because Gaza was occupied by Palestinians, which Egypt didn’t want responsibility for.

The Arab countries have not wanted to take responsibility for the Palestinians. Why are most Palestinians still living in refuge camps, not only in “occupied” territory, but Arab countries as well? Are the Palestinians being used as pawns in the battle to exercise “right of return” which would eliminate Israel as we now know it?

Why did the Palestinians only resort to terror tactics once Israel “occupied” the territories? Why didn’t they use these tactics they are using today against Jordan in the West Bank and Egypt in Gaza? Why didn’t they attack the civilian populations of the same countries as the do in Israel?

What historical president is there for a country to return land won in a war? Remember how many wars there were between Israel and multiple Arab countries. The 1967 war was started by Israel, but only because they had information that an attack was pending by Jordan, Egypt and Syria. If Israeli land was now occupied by any of those countries would there be similar demands for them to return captured territory?

Are the Palestinians pawns? Sadly, yes. Should they act as a state if they want to be treated as such? Yes. Are they (Hammas) doing so? No. Is there some blame for Israel for the current situation? Yes. Are they the only ones with such responsibility? No.

35.       MrX67
2540 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 05:26 pm

Gazze is one of humanity shame center of this century..how can be this much blind and deaf all world this untold treagedy???

36.       ciko
784 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 05:40 pm

Quoting MrX67:

Gazze is one of humanity shame center of this century..how can be this much blind and deaf all world this untold treagedy???



Because there is nothing more powerful than israel and jewish in the world Money talks...

37.       MrX67
2540 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 06:24 pm

Quoting ciko:

Quoting MrX67:

Gazze is one of humanity shame center of this century..how can be this much blind and deaf all world this untold treagedy???



Because there is nothing more powerful than israel and jewish in the world Money talks...

but humanity must be stronger then dirty paper pieces,is peace more cheap then money????

38.       portokal
2516 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 06:50 pm

if i only knew much things about gazze.
what was going on...
what i am?
what will be going on?

39.       KeithL
1455 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 07:13 pm

I was extremely happy the day I read the news about the border wall torn down in rafah. This is not the only obstacle to peace in the middle east but it is certainly its main pillar. I hate what Israel has done to these people. And I am ashamed of the Arabs for letting it happen. And I am disgusted that my government pays for it...

40.       portokal
2516 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 07:23 pm

Arjun-Vishad The Dejection of Arjuna
Krishna! as I behold, come here to shed Their common blood, yon concourse of our kin, My members fail, my tongue dries in my mouth, A shudder thrills my body, and my hair Bristles with horror; from my weak hand slips Gandiv, the goodly bow; a fever burns My skin to parching; hardly may I stand; The life within me seems to swim and faint; Nothing do I foresee save woe and wail! It is not good, O Keshav! nought of good Can spring from mutual slaughter! Lo, I hate Triumph and domination, wealth and ease, Thus sadly won! Aho! what victory Can bring delight, Govinda! what rich spoils Could profit; what rule recompense; what span Of life itself seem sweet, bought with such blood? Seeing that these stand here, ready to die, For whose sake life was fair, and pleasure pleased, And power grew precious: - grandsires, sires, and sons. Brothers, and fathers-in-law, and sons-in-law, Elders and friends! Shall I deal death on these Even though they seek to slay us? Not one blow, O Madhusudan! will I strike to gain The rule of all Three Worlds; then, how much less To seize an earthly kingdom! Killing these Must breed but anguish, Krishna! If they be Guilty, we shall grow guilty by their deaths; Their sins will light on us, if we shall slay Those sons of Dhritirashtra, and our kin; What peace could come of that, O Madhava? For if indeed, blinded by lust and wrath, These cannot see, or will not see, the sin Of kingly lines o'erthrown and kinsmen slain, How should not we, who see, shun such a crime We who perceive the guilt and feel the shame Oh, thou Delight of Men, Janardana? By overthrow of houses perisheth Their sweet continuous household piety, And - rites neglected, piety extinct Enters impiety upon that home; Its women grow unwomaned, whence there spring Mad passions, and the mingling-up of castes, Sending a Hell-ward road that family, And whoso wrought its doom by wicked wrath. Nay, and the souls of honored ancestors Fall from their place of peace, being bereft Of funeral-cakes and the wan death-water.1

So teach our holy hymns. Thus, if we slay Kinsfolk and friends for love of earthly power, Ahovat! what an evil fault it were! Better I deem it, if my kinsmen strike, To face them weaponless, and bare my breast To shaft and spear, than answer blow with blow.

41.       KeithL
1455 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 07:40 pm

does that somehow relate to Gaza and the palestinians?

42.       alameda
3499 posts
 29 Jan 2008 Tue 08:26 pm

The situation in Palestine/Gaza/Israel is like a gangrenous wound. Quietly, insidiously it infects the whole world, rotting and destroying as it continues to fester and spread it's malodorous atmosphere unchecked.

43.       CANLI
5084 posts
 30 Jan 2008 Wed 12:31 am

Quoting teaschip1:

Egypt occupied Gaza from 1948 to 1967. However when Israel and Egypt signed their peace treaty in 1979, in which Egypt got back much of their land lost in the 1967 war, they didn’t push the issue to get Gaza back. Why not? Because Gaza was occupied by Palestinians, which Egypt didn’t want responsibility for.

The Arab countries have not wanted to take responsibility for the Palestinians. Why are most Palestinians still living in refuge camps, not only in “occupied” territory, but Arab countries as well? Are the Palestinians being used as pawns in the battle to exercise “right of return” which would eliminate Israel as we now know it?

Why did the Palestinians only resort to terror tactics once Israel “occupied” the territories? Why didn’t they use these tactics they are using today against Jordan in the West Bank and Egypt in Gaza? Why didn’t they attack the civilian populations of the same countries as the do in Israel?

What historical president is there for a country to return land won in a war? Remember how many wars there were between Israel and multiple Arab countries. The 1967 war was started by Israel, but only because they had information that an attack was pending by Jordan, Egypt and Syria. If Israeli land was now occupied by any of those countries would there be similar demands for them to return captured territory?

Are the Palestinians pawns? Sadly, yes. Should they act as a state if they want to be treated as such? Yes. Are they (Hammas) doing so? No. Is there some blame for Israel for the current situation? Yes. Are they the only ones with such responsibility? No.


Actually,im afraid to say you got your base wrong,thats why you got your conclusions as wrong too!

First of all Egypt didnt OCCUPY Gaza from 1948 to 1967,because both Egypt and Gazza were occupied with GREAT BRİTİAN !
We just kicked them out from our lands in 1956,and then we got attacked by the 2 GREAT countries Britian and France and of course İsrael didnt miss that chance !
And on 1956 it was the time when UN devided Palastin into 2 parts,İsraelian and Arab.
So it was ,we take the responsibiliy of Gaza and keep the Palastinian live there,or İsrael have it and kick them out as she did to the others...
Thats why Palastinian live in other countries,because they have been kicked out of their country !

So Gazah was and still a Palastinian land ...and the responsibility of it goes to the Palastinian people not to anyone else !

Thats why when we signed our peace treaty in 1979 we didnt include Gazah too because we are not the one who should talk about it,but we suggested one to the Palastinians,and they refused it ...
İt was their decision..wrong or right,they carry its responsibility

''The Arab countries have not wanted to take responsibility for the Palestinians ''
İ guess you NEED to read more history before you made such comments,our blood are there in the Palastinian land in 1948 was flowing like river there..
That blood which we paid for it through the years,and in all our wars no one can deny,NOT even the palastinians

So i guess before you made such comment,and take people's rights,you need to read some history,they were our fathers and grandfathers,uncles who died there with honor
And their blood was not that cheep so you can easily come and say, ''Egypt didnt want to have responsibility for Palastinians ''
We didnt pay little,it was with high price and we've paid it...

You didnt even think once how Palastinians got that name ?
İ mean ,you are American,and your country is USA 'America' im Egyptian,and my country is Egypt
They are Palastinian...where is Palastin ?
Did you think it was a ghost or something ?a fairy tail ?
No dear...NO..it was there and exist before they took it from the Palastinians,and it İS there and STİLL exist.

So NO,and BİG NO...no one is going to take the responsibility of the Palastinians,NO one is going to take the responsibility of Gazah,because it has its own people,and Palastinians have their own country
They want live there,and fight for their land...

And no one,NO ONE can deny them that right !

To say,out of humanity we 'other countries not just us' must have them in our lands and give them home and shelters,that is like putting the poison in the honey.

İts not kindness or tenderness,its another invaid for their right to have their land!

They are and were welcome to live here ' in Egypt'they go to our schools,live among us ,with us..they are most welcome.
But they HAVE their land...and they want it.
İts not what WE want,its what THEY want

You cant just kick someone out of his home,then ask his neighbours out of humanity,to have them..and at same time forbid him to have or be in his home !
We welcome them,we host them,but they still want their home...can you blame them ?!

''Are the Palestinians being used as pawns in the battle to exercise “right of return” which would eliminate Israel as we now know it?''

Actually,i dont understand even the question !
Used by who ? and the right of return to whom ?!!!!

They..THE PALASTİNİANS are fighting to HAVE THEİR right of return to THEİR LANDS !

İts not a game,or something funny they ask for,they are people have been kicked out of THEİR country,and they fight to go back

''
Why did the Palestinians only resort to terror tactics once Israel “occupied” the territories? Why didn’t they use these tactics they are using today against Jordan in the West Bank and Egypt in Gaza? Why didn’t they attack the civilian populations of the same countries as the do in Israel? ''

Because we ALL were under the authority of GREAT BRİTİAN
WE didnt take anyone's land...unlike İsrael...i guess that is why they fighting İsrael and didnt fight us ?!
We ALL were invaded by Britian,and we didnt have our choices in our hands.

GOD !

''What historical president is there for a country to return land won in a war? Remember how many wars there were between Israel and multiple Arab countries. The 1967 war was started by Israel, but only because they had information that an attack was pending by Jordan, Egypt and Syria. If Israeli land was now occupied by any of those countries would there be similar demands for them to return captured territory? ''

Then if Mixco,took over the USA,you will just leave it to them and find yourself another nice country ?
Sorry,we dont work this way,OUR country İS OUR country,we pay our blood for it...
And so are the Palastinians too

return captured territory for İsrael...!
Hmmm,let me get this straight,İsrael wasnt exist before 1948,do you think its was an empty land there,with no people living in,with no name and identity? İsrael took their land on 1948 with a promise from who has no right to give what is not his!
İt was a promise from Britian,and when Palastinian take their land back from İsrael,then,they should give it back to İsrael again ?!
By any law ?!

And you know something ?
Palastinians dont demand even to have their whole land back,they just ask for what UN desided,for half of their lands,and even that,they cant have!
And the little what they already have,they fight for it,and you say WE should carry their responsibilities and have them in our countries,and they should leave their country!

WHAT YOU ACCEPT FOR YOURSEL,ACCEPT FOR OTHERS!

44.       KeithL
1455 posts
 31 Jan 2008 Thu 06:43 pm

Free Gaza Website

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2008/01/30/free_gaza

45.       portokal
2516 posts
 31 Jan 2008 Thu 06:59 pm

Quoting farukdemirhan:

i wish this topic have the largest amount of replies...

we r living kind of shame life , that we r even cant say that the people in Gazzah r suffering ...

here we r in need just for a word from u TC's friends..
We r not brave to do ...at least we should be brave to say that


WE R WITH U GAZZAH'S PEOPLE*



ANYONE?



I AM WITH YOU GAZZAH'S PEOPLE*
WE ARE WITH YOU GAZZAH'S PEOPLE*

46.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 12:07 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:


But indeed, this is very interesting and serious 'Topic' but i dont see anything close about this topic with Turkia.



İ agree,its a serious 'Topic' not related to Türkiye,but sure it was interesting to see and read how Turkish people react towards something SERİOUS happening to their neighbours...or let me say Eastern neighbours ?!

Not even a word of sympathy without criticizing !
Maybe they dont want to be mistaken of ''ARAB LOVERS''?!

Anyway,
Long live EU !

47.       teaschip
3870 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 04:03 pm

Quote:

First of all Egypt didnt OCCUPY Gaza from 1948 to 1967,because both Egypt and Gazza were occupied with GREAT BRİTİAN !
We just kicked them out from our lands in 1956,and then we got attacked by the 2 GREAT countries Britian and France and of course İsrael didnt miss that chance !
And on 1956 it was the time when UN devided Palastin into 2 parts,İsraelian and Arab.
So it was ,we take the responsibiliy of Gaza and keep the Palastinian live there,or İsrael have it and kick them out as she did to the others...
Thats why Palastinian live in other countries,because they have been kicked out of their country !



Following the dissolution of the British mandate of Palestine and 1947-1948 Civil War in Palestine, Israel declared its independence in May 1948. The Egyptian army invaded the area from the south, starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. [8] "Egypt occupied the Strip from 1949 (except for four months of Israeli occupation during the 1956 Suez Crisis) until 1967."

Source
Gaza Strip
From Wikipedia

Egypt didn't OCCUPY Gaza from 1948 70 1967? Canli...I think your history books are outdated......or maybe it's denial.

Let’s face it, Egypt does not want to look bad in the middle east but absolutely does not want to be active in the use of Gaza by Hamas and their financiers to make war against Israel. Anyone who does not see Hamas and those financing Hamas is THE Enemy of the people in Gaza can be sold absolutely anything.

Canli, why does Egypt maintain a wall between itself and Gaza, I was curious? While Israelis are scrutinized for maintaning a fence and stretches of a wall between themselves and Arab terrorists trying to infiltrate Israel from the "West Bank" to set off bombs and kill people. What's Egypt's reason?


48.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 05:53 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quote:

First of all Egypt didnt OCCUPY Gaza from 1948 to 1967,because both Egypt and Gazza were occupied with GREAT BRİTİAN !
We just kicked them out from our lands in 1956,and then we got attacked by the 2 GREAT countries Britian and France and of course İsrael didnt miss that chance !
And on 1956 it was the time when UN devided Palastin into 2 parts,İsraelian and Arab.
So it was ,we take the responsibiliy of Gaza and keep the Palastinian live there,or İsrael have it and kick them out as she did to the others...
Thats why Palastinian live in other countries,because they have been kicked out of their country !



Following the dissolution of the British mandate of Palestine and 1947-1948 Civil War in Palestine, Israel declared its independence in May 1948. The Egyptian army invaded the area from the south, starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. [8] "Egypt occupied the Strip from 1949 (except for four months of Israeli occupation during the 1956 Suez Crisis) until 1967."

Source
Gaza Strip
From Wikipedia

Egypt didn't OCCUPY Gaza from 1948 70 1967? Canli...I think your history books are outdated......or maybe it's denial.

Let’s face it, Egypt does not want to look bad in the middle east but absolutely does not want to be active in the use of Gaza by Hamas and their financiers to make war against Israel. Anyone who does not see Hamas and those financing Hamas is THE Enemy of the people in Gaza can be sold absolutely anything.

Canli, why does Egypt maintain a wall between itself and Gaza, I was curious? While Israelis are scrutinized for maintaning a fence and stretches of a wall between themselves and Arab terrorists trying to infiltrate Israel from the "West Bank" to set off bombs and kill people. What's Egypt's reason?



You didnt get it again as i see tea,did you ?

Egypt has been totally indebendent ON 1956 when last British solder left our lands
We've been ruled by Britian exactly till July 1952
So how can you say we Occupied Gazah from 1948
We both been occupied by Britian
We took our country back and Palstin did not obviously because it has been occupied by İsrael on 1948 after Britian
And on 1956 the UN seperated Palstin to 2 parts Arab and İsraeli,
On that time there was no Palstinian goverment to take over,so
AGAİN,it was either we take this responsibility,and let the land for its original people which is the Palastinians or İsrael take it,and by time kick them off as its trying now !

You really make me laugh,you quote from Wikipedia,and asking me to read MY history which was not far away,which grandfather,my father,uncles ,mother,aunts,lived it and told us about too not only studied it in school,which Palstinians still living it till now ?
And you want me to brows it ?!

Outdated? No dear,its updated,very much updated there at our borders !

''Canli, why does Egypt maintain a wall between itself and Gaza, I was curious?''
Why ?
You have open borders between you and Mixco or you and Canada ?
People can come and go all the times as they wants as if its one country ?!

WE are 2 different countries,Egypt,and Gazah which is part of Palastin,we should have borders.
İsrael,is İN THEİR lands,took part of of it,even accourding to the UN seperation borders,and making a fence so they cant renter it .

And you are comparing what ?!

49.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 05:57 pm

İ dont see what are you arguing about here actually

İsrael turing Palastinians life into hell in Gazah,people escape to our lands to get their life necessaries.

And you are BLAMİNG US for WHAT ?!

50.       teaschip
3870 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 06:33 pm


Maybe Egypt should have not occupied Gaza from 1948 to 1967 after it attacked Israel in 1948? There would have been a Palestinian state 60 years old now had they hadn’t, and had Jordan not attacked Israel and occupied the west bank for the same time period. It all stems back to putting these people in refugee camps years ago, and by who.

And wouldn’t it be correct to draw the inference that up till now Egypt, like Israel, has also maintained a closed border with Gaza? Yet I seem only to have read accounts in the media of the cruel and brutal actions of the Israelis in blocking passage to and from Gaza, but not a single judgemental word till now about the Egyptians doing exactly the same (and why can’t they supply Gaza with energy, instead of the hated Zionist entity?

51.       teaschip
3870 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 06:36 pm

Did I mention, nice to see you back Canli.

52.       portokal
2516 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 06:44 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Did I mention, nice to see you back Canli.


Canli?!

53.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:34 pm

Quoting teaschip1:


Maybe Egypt should have not occupied Gaza from 1948 to 1967 after it attacked Israel in 1948? There would have been a Palestinian state 60 years old now had they hadn’t, and had Jordan not attacked Israel and occupied the west bank for the same time period. It all stems back to putting these people in refugee camps years ago, and by who.

And wouldn’t it be correct to draw the inference that up till now Egypt, like Israel, has also maintained a closed border with Gaza? Yet I seem only to have read accounts in the media of the cruel and brutal actions of the Israelis in blocking passage to and from Gaza, but not a single judgemental word till now about the Egyptians doing exactly the same (and why can’t they supply Gaza with energy, instead of the hated Zionist entity?



İ know my first language isnt English,but i thought i speak it fair enough !

Well,tea actually i dont know how can i put it so you get the idea,
There was NO israel
İt has been created in 1948
And it hasnt been created in an empty land
So its the other way arround,İsrael were attacking the people to take their lands
And they were defending it!
Egypt,Jordan and Syria were having wars with İsrael to get that land back for the Palstinians
And as you see,both the lands which we and Jordan occupided now under the Palstinian's authority
So we actually give it to them...its not ours
dear,
İf we didnt occupy Gazzah on that time and if Jordan didnt occupay the West Bank,there would be nothing absolutly NOTHİNG for Palstinians now .
İ wont argue about whats obvious...

At the end,you actually made it our fault that İsrael took Palstinians' lands !
And i guess we made the British to give Jewish that promise 'as you see they were called Jewish not İsraelians because there was no İsrael on that time' and WE forced them to took it over?!

İts a beautiful life ... !

54.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:35 pm

Thx tea
Sry,we are having a bad connections here,for the cut in the under sea cables

Yes portokal ?

55.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:41 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Did I mention, nice to see you back Canli.



+100000

56.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:41 pm

Quoting CANLI:


Sry,we are having a bad connections here,for the cut in the under sea cables



I think Femme was on a diving holiday near there..... lol

57.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:51 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting CANLI:


Sry,we are having a bad connections here,for the cut in the under sea cables



I think Femme was on a diving holiday near there..... lol



I wonder how things are going with her in Tahiti?

58.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:51 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting CANLI:


Sry,we are having a bad connections here,for the cut in the under sea cables



I think Femme was on a diving holiday near there..... lol



I wonder how things are going with her in Tahiti?



Her "adjustments" must be finished by now

59.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:53 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting teaschip1:

Did I mention, nice to see you back Canli.



+100000


Thx canım

60.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:54 pm

Quoting teaschip1:


Maybe Egypt should have not occupied Gaza from 1948 to 1967 after it attacked Israel in 1948? There would have been a Palestinian state 60 years old now had they hadn’t, and had Jordan not attacked Israel and occupied the west bank for the same time period. It all stems back to putting these people in refugee camps years ago, and by who.

And wouldn’t it be correct to draw the inference that up till now Egypt, like Israel, has also maintained a closed border with Gaza? Yet I seem only to have read accounts in the media of the cruel and brutal actions of the Israelis in blocking passage to and from Gaza, but not a single judgemental word till now about the Egyptians doing exactly the same (and why can’t they supply Gaza with energy, instead of the hated Zionist entity?



Gee teaschip1....get a grip here....you really know very tiny fraction of the issue going on here, but you sure don't mind spouting your "opinion".

Sir Ronald Storrs, the governor of Jerusalem under the British Mandate, wrote this in Orientations, published in 1937. Storrs said that a Jewish homeland in Palestine “will form for England a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.”

In 1946, not long after the Second World War was won, Britain was again under threat. Jewish insurgents, who had long been fighting a bloody insurgency campaign against British troops in Palestine, were about to take their war to London. Previously top secret documents reveal that assassination squads were being sent to the capital armed with a hit list. On it were the names of several top government figures. These included Britain’s Foreign Secretary, Earnest Bevin.

Jewish insurgency in Palestine

61.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:54 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting CANLI:


Sry,we are having a bad connections here,for the cut in the under sea cables



I think Femme was on a diving holiday near there..... lol



Hmmmmm,that makes sense then lol

62.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:55 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting CANLI:


Sry,we are having a bad connections here,for the cut in the under sea cables



I think Femme was on a diving holiday near there..... lol



I wonder how things are going with her in Tahiti?



Her "adjustments" must be finished by now



My sources have revealed that she is "coming along" nicely!!

63.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:56 pm

Quoting alameda:

....get a grip here....you really know very tiny fraction of the issue going on here,



Me too!
Which is why I have steered clear of this thread!!! But I have my own, secret opinions

64.       teaschip
3870 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 07:57 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1:


Maybe Egypt should have not occupied Gaza from 1948 to 1967 after it attacked Israel in 1948? There would have been a Palestinian state 60 years old now had they hadn’t, and had Jordan not attacked Israel and occupied the west bank for the same time period. It all stems back to putting these people in refugee camps years ago, and by who.

And wouldn’t it be correct to draw the inference that up till now Egypt, like Israel, has also maintained a closed border with Gaza? Yet I seem only to have read accounts in the media of the cruel and brutal actions of the Israelis in blocking passage to and from Gaza, but not a single judgemental word till now about the Egyptians doing exactly the same (and why can’t they supply Gaza with energy, instead of the hated Zionist entity?



Gee teaschip1....get a grip here....you really know very tiny fraction of the issue going on here, but you sure don't mind spouting your "opinion".

Sir Ronald Storrs, the governor of Jerusalem under the British Mandate, wrote this in Orientations, published in 1937. Storrs said that a Jewish homeland in Palestine “will form for England a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.”



Yes, and we have to tolerate your opinions here Alameda as well. I thought tolerance came with age, I guess not. lol

65.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:01 pm

Quoting teaschip1:



Yes, and we have to tolerate your opinions here Alameda as well. I thought tolerance came with age, I guess not. lol



This has nothing to do with opinions dear...if you like it or not, facts speak for themselves.....

66.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:07 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1:



Yes, and we have to tolerate your opinions here Alameda as well. I thought tolerance came with age, I guess not. lol



This has nothing to do with opinions dear...if you like it or not, facts speak for themselves.....



Yes alameda thats true,facts speak,but that doesnt mean they can be heared...right ?

67.       teaschip
3870 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:12 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1:



Yes, and we have to tolerate your opinions here Alameda as well. I thought tolerance came with age, I guess not. lol



This has nothing to do with opinions dear...if you like it or not, facts speak for themselves.....



Yes, and I have many that come to mind..regarding you. lol

68.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:30 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

.............Yes, and I have many that come to mind..regarding you. lol



And just what "facts" do you know about me teashcip1? I don't post much personal information regarding myself, not my age or even my gender....so just what "facts" do you know about me? Not much I venture to say. It seems your imagination is running away with itself. I do not appreciate personal attacks.

Do you have something relevant to post regarding the thread, or have you decided to do personal attacts instead?

I am trying to bring to light relevant historic facts, not biased opinion. The fact of the matter with the Palestine/Israel/Gaza situation is many of the problems have occurred due to outside interference. That's a fact. Read the history.

69.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:33 pm

Quoting alameda:

Do you have something relevant to post regarding the thread, or have you decided to do personal attacts instead?



Too much of that lately

70.       azade
1606 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:58 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting teaschip1:

Did I mention, nice to see you back Canli.



+100000



Please stay this time ukhti you were missed on the site

71.       teaschip
3870 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 09:59 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1:

.............Yes, and I have many that come to mind..regarding you. lol



And just what "facts" do you know about me teashcip1? I don't post much personal information regarding myself, not my age or even my gender....so just what "facts" do you know about me? Not much I venture to say. It seems your imagination is running away with itself. I do not appreciate personal attacks.

Do you have something relevant to post regarding the thread, or have you decided to do personal attacts instead?

I am trying to bring to light relevant historic facts, not biased opinion. The fact of the matter with the Palestine/Israel/Gaza situation is many of the problems have occurred due to outside interference. That's a fact. Read the history.



First of all, I don't recall posting a personal attack here regarding you. If my memory serves me well, quite the opposite on how you respond to EVERY one of my posts..

Part of discussing events includes facts AND opinions. But you never seem to have an opinion here, it's always supplied with links.. The only opinions I hear you give are sarcastic comments towards me. So I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself. Now there's a fact for you...

72.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 10:24 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

....First of all, I don't recall posting a personal attack here regarding you. If my memory serves me well, quite the opposite on how you respond to EVERY one of my posts..

Part of discussing events includes facts AND opinions. But you never seem to have an opinion here, it's always supplied with links.. The only opinions I hear you give are sarcastic comments towards me. So I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself. Now there's a fact for you...



earlier you said..."Yes, and we have to tolerate your opinions here Alameda as well. I thought tolerance came with age, I guess not. "

In other posts you have called me an old bag...

You are contradicting yourself, make up your mind...do I give my opinions or not?

I collect the facts and share them in order to facilitate the forming of educated opinions. To achieve that aim, I supply links to resources, as is common practice in educated circles.

73.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 10:41 pm

Quoting alameda:


I collect the facts and share them in order to facilitate the forming of educated opinions. To achieve that aim, I supply links to resources, as is common practice in educated circles.


Pardon me dear but your arrogance is showing.....again! Your posts continually show that you believe yourself to be intellectually superior to everyone else here.
It may surprise you to find that there are some highly intelligent individuals here who don't need every post to be turned into an educational opportunity!!! Some of us actually come here to have fun.
And I'm pretty damn sure we can all form our own educated opinions without you and your links...we did it LONG before you happened upon this site and will continue to do it long after you go.


74.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:08 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1:

....First of all, I don't recall posting a personal attack here regarding you. If my memory serves me well, quite the opposite on how you respond to EVERY one of my posts..

Part of discussing events includes facts AND opinions. But you never seem to have an opinion here, it's always supplied with links.. The only opinions I hear you give are sarcastic comments towards me. So I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself. Now there's a fact for you...



earlier you said..."Yes, and we have to tolerate your opinions here Alameda as well. I thought tolerance came with age, I guess not. "

In other posts you have called me an old bag...

You are contradicting yourself, make up your mind...do I give my opinions or not?

I collect the facts and share them in order to facilitate the forming of educated opinions. To achieve that aim, I supply links to resources, as is common practice in educated circles.



I'm out of rehab and I forgot to take my pill and now I feel a sanctimonious moment creeping up on me.

Of course opinions and facts are important elements of any debate or discussion. Teaschip has a right to her opinion on issues, the same as everyone else and it is almost certain she has informed herself before formulating a decision. She doesn't have to name any sources of information and I'm sure nobody expects her to.

Almeda often gives her opinions. I know this because, from what I have read, people often refer to her catch phrase IMHO. Of course this is a useful phrase to help the audience understand Alameda doesn't expect people to agree with her. Giving links is useful because they inform and thus give others an opportunity to contribute to the discussion. It's also a much quicker way of relating a fact or point when time is short for the person making the post.

Now you may say "what business is this of mine?" Well it is my business because it is on a public forum on a website of which I am a member. Such forums by their very nature invite audience participation, when an opportunity presents itself. I have been involved in several exchanges of words recently and people have intervened and commented. I've never remonstrated with them for it and said it is none of their business. If we want to keep arguments exclusive then we have msn and email to fall back on.

OK I've had my fix of sanctimony. I've gotta go . . . I see the men in white coats heading my way.

75.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:09 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

It may surprise you to find that there are some highly intelligent individuals here who don't need every post to be turned into an educational opportunity!!! Some of us actually come here to have fun.



Ouh this is sooooo true (take note peace train)

Quoting girleegirl:


And I'm pretty damn sure we can all form our own educated opinions without you and your links...we did it LONG before you happened upon this site and will continue to do it long after you go.



Not me I had an IQ of 100 before I met Alameda

Incidently, do intellectual circles spend all their time posting links on the internet these days?

76.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:16 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting alameda:


I collect the facts and share them in order to facilitate the forming of educated opinions. To achieve that aim, I supply links to resources, as is common practice in educated circles.


Pardon me dear but your arrogance is showing.....again! Your posts continually show that you believe yourself to be intellectually superior to everyone else here.
It may surprise you to find that there are some highly intelligent individuals here who don't need every post to be turned into an educational opportunity!!! Some of us actually come here to have fun.
And I'm pretty damn sure we can all form our own educated opinions without you and your links...we did it LONG before you happened upon this site and will continue to do it long after you go.




oops. I'm in for it now. Hopefully you are out of the firing line Alameda.

77.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:18 pm

Quoting peace train:

oops. I'm in for it now. Hopefully you are out of the firing line Alameda.



Your false little act is starting to wear a bit thin now. We have all been in YOUR firing line Peace train - but you clothe it nicely with "ouh I am just a silly old, forgetful woman who is just giving you caring advice" routine.

78.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:21 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting girleegirl:

It may surprise you to find that there are some highly intelligent individuals here who don't need every post to be turned into an educational opportunity!!! Some of us actually come here to have fun.



Ouh this is sooooo true (take note peace train)



Ha ha ha I knew it

79.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:26 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting peace train:

oops. I'm in for it now. Hopefully you are out of the firing line Alameda.



Your false little act is starting to wear a bit thin now. We have all been in YOUR firing line Peace train - but you clothe it nicely with "ouh I am just a silly old, forgetful woman who is just giving you caring advice" routine.



You can form any opinion you want about me, if it helps you. I don't mind being in anyone's firing line. This is a public forum, it's inevitable.

80.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:33 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:


Incidently, do intellectual circles spend all their time posting links on the internet these days?



No, no, no!!! III I know it's difficult with your limited intellect but please just TRY to pay attention!! He/she/it (alameda stated we don't know it's sex so what else can I call it??) clearly said EDUCATED CIRCLES not intellecutal circles!!!!!

81.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:36 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

No, no, no!!! III I know it's difficult with your limited intellect but please just TRY to pay attention!! He/she/it (alameda stated we don't know it's sex so what else can I call it??) clearly said EDUCATED CIRCLES not intellecutal circles!!!!!



Ouh thank you for correcting my error GG. Ben salakim

It does, indeed, make a world of difference! You can have all the best education available and still NEVER be an intellectual lol

82.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:43 pm

Quoting peace train:


oops. I'm in for it now. Hopefully you are out of the firing line Alameda.


Why, what's alameda gonna do...shoot me with a LINK!?!?

83.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:45 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting peace train:


oops. I'm in for it now. Hopefully you are out of the firing line Alameda.


Why, what's alameda gonna do...shoot me with a LINK!?!?



Careful GG - she has had LOTS of practice

84.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:48 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:


Careful GG - she has had LOTS of practice


I can take her!
Hey, we could have a double-bill. GG vs.alameda and III vs. LL. It could be big money for both of us!!

85.       alameda
3499 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 12:10 am

Quoting AlphaF:

GAZZE is a small town in which about 1.5 million Arabs are ransomed by Israel..There is an Israeli wall around the city, there is no electricity, there is no water, there is not enough food, medical supplies are non existent.

People in Gazze have torn this wall of shame down and gained temporary access to Egypt few days ago.

US stepped in and forced Egyptian authorities to close this entry into Egypt. Egyptian Army and police have done exactly as ordered and are now stopping and severely beating up their own brethen - who is only after their most basic needs.

Perhaps some of you think, people of Gazze deserve this....

Anyone?



Well I see things livened up a bit...happy now ladies? Some of you mentioned you were bored...

Anyway, how about discussing the topic?

86.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 12:14 am

How bout we talk about whatever we want to talk about?

87.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 12:21 am

*As alameda lurks about in her corner, frantically searching for google links to tell her how to respond, GG lies in wait...ready to pounce*

88.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 12:24 am

Quoting girleegirl:

*As alameda lurks about in her corner, frantically searching for google links to tell her how to respond, GG lies in wait...ready to pounce*


Vow...GG seems quite confident..
If there is going to be a fight, all my savings to GG..

89.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 04:46 pm

Gaza
http://electronicintifada.net:80/v2/article6374.shtml

90.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 05:25 pm



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7R_YZiRlPs


91.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 05:31 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:




92.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 05:33 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting femme_fatal:







My thought exactly



BUT am I the only one who thinks that that smiley means like a "thank you for your compliments"??? Like an actor bows in front of its public that throws flowers at him? Or..

93.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 08:00 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7R_YZiRlPs


hip hip hurray

94.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 08:04 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

BUT am I the only one who thinks that that smiley means like a 'thank you for your compliments'??? Like an actor bows in front of its public that throws flowers at him? Or..



Hmmm you are right
This better?

Welcome back Femme

95.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 08:35 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

BUT am I the only one who thinks that that smiley means like a 'thank you for your compliments'??? Like an actor bows in front of its public that throws flowers at him? Or..



Hmmm you are right
This better?

Welcome back Femme



calm down plz, you may upset some people here.

96.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 08:42 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7R_YZiRlPs


Have you ever read the papers femme?
some examples on the net for you about how isralies refering to arabs:
r fisk

The "bestialisation" story referred to Israeli leaders who had at various times called Palestinians "serpents", "two-legged beasts", "cockroaches in a glass jar", and "crocodiles". Of course, honestreporting.com erased all mention of that in its "communiqué".


http://www.swans.com/library/art12/ga212.html
Too bad they are inhabited by Palestinians, known as -- pick and choose -- Arabs, Muslims, terrorists, rattlesnakes, cockroaches, rats, or monkeys. Israel decides. America applauds. Europe quivers. Life goes on.

anyway..
you are trying to blame the victim there..

97.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 02 Feb 2008 Sat 08:47 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting femme_fatal:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7R_YZiRlPs


Have you ever read the papers femme?
some examples on the net for you about how isralies refering to arabs:
r fisk

The "bestialisation" story referred to Israeli leaders who had at various times called Palestinians "serpents", "two-legged beasts", "cockroaches in a glass jar", and "crocodiles". Of course, honestreporting.com erased all mention of that in its "communiqué".


http://www.swans.com/library/art12/ga212.html
Too bad they are inhabited by Palestinians, known as -- pick and choose -- Arabs, Muslims, terrorists, rattlesnakes, cockroaches, rats, or monkeys. Israel decides. America applauds. Europe quivers. Life goes on.

anyway..
you are trying to blame the victim there..



you are so delusional

98.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Feb 2008 Sun 05:19 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUFLpP9Prxo

99.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 03 Feb 2008 Sun 11:46 am

i wanna answer the question.
britan had a right to grant the land to anyone it wished to or keep to itself.
if you occuppy the land, its yours and you do what you like.
i dont tend to think the land was given to jews because of holocaust.
btw, there was no nation called palestinians before, nor there was such country. it were jews who used to call their land palestine as their home to go back one day.

and actually almost no one lived in the deserted area of palestine, so to claim the land was someones.

as far as im concerned if not jews then arab would fight someone else or with each other. middle eastern states never were in peace with each other.

100.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Feb 2008 Mon 01:49 am

Quoting femme_fatal:

...........btw, there was no nation called palestinians before, nor there was such country. it were jews who used to call their land palestine as their home to go back one day.

and actually almost no one lived in the deserted area of ipalestine, so to claim the land was someones.
as far as im concerned if not jews then arab would fight someone else or with each other. middle eastern states never were in peace with each other.



Actually the name Palestine was not used by the Jews. They called the area Israel and Judea, or Eretz Israel.

The name Palestine was given the area as a slap in the fact to the Jews by the Emperor Hadrian to blot out the names the Jews had given the area. I read he asked who were the most hated people to the Jews. He was told the the Philistine (who had become extinct by that time) That name morphed into what we now know as Palestine.

The name Palestine came from the Philistines who invaded the area and were not Semites at all. It's sad the area ever got that name as it was given in hate. Before that it was called the Land of Canaan.

That area is one of the most continually inhabited areas in the world for many thousands of years. In fact the remains of Neanderthals have been found in the Kebara Cave.

What are called Palestinians today are the indiginous people of the area who have been there many years. DNA analysis shows they are related to the Jews. Of course, being as the area has been invaded many times, there is DNA evidance of just about everyone there.....after all it is in the Fertile Crescent....aka the cradle of civilization.


101.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 04 Feb 2008 Mon 08:00 pm

CHRISTIAN AID CONDEMNS ISRAEL'S BLOCKADE OF GAZA

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/218275/120110166252.htm

102.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 03:35 am

Quoting femme_fatal:

i wanna answer the question.
britan had a right to grant the land to anyone it wished to or keep to itself.
if you occuppy the land, its yours and you do what you like.


By what law ?
Britan has no rights on that land so it can give it to anyone she likes
İf so,why didnt it give them part of Britain itself,she actually own that land
But you see,no one gives something REALLY belong to him.
So,you mean USA and Britain have the right now to give İraq to whome ever they wish ?!
That wasnt your opinion about İraq as i recall!


Quoting femme_fatal:


and actually almost no one lived in the deserted area of palestine, so to claim the land was someones.



So anyone can go to Nevada desert and claim the land there and make his own country over it?!lol
Thats really funny

Quoting femme_fatal:


as far as im concerned if not jews then arab would fight someone else or with each other. middle eastern states never were in peace with each other.


Actually Middle East have lots of goodies,so for long,long time we didnt have that pleasure so anyone can state such comment.

103.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 01:33 pm

Quoting alameda:


Actually the name Palestine was not used by the Jews. They called the area Israel and Judea, or Eretz Israel.


well, i didnt mean the ancient times, alameda. i was talking about late centuries. jews used to call their homeland palestine before israel was established.

Quoting alameda:



The name Palestine was given the area as a slap in the fact to the Jews by the Emperor Hadrian to blot out the names the Jews had given the area. I read he asked who were the most hated people to the Jews. He was told the the Philistine (who had become extinct by that time) That name morphed into what we now know as Palestine.


wow, im impressed by your educational skills.
you have to also underline that philistinians were the life time enemies of israel. they were called the people of sea from north, obviously from greece or from mesopotamia area.

Quoting alameda:



The name Palestine came from the Philistines who invaded the area and were not Semites at all. It's sad the area ever got that name as it was given in hate. Before that it was called the Land of Canaan.


as above

Quoting alameda:



That area is one of the most continually inhabited areas in the world for many thousands of years.


the actual land of palestine was deserted for last couple of centuries as a result of endless invasions, barely a few thousands lived there.

Quoting alameda:


In fact the remains of Neanderthals have been found in the Kebara Cave.


very interesting

Quoting alameda:



What are called Palestinians today are the indiginous people of the area who have been there many years.


well, simply after it was taken by arabs.

Quoting alameda:


DNA analysis shows they are related to the Jews. Of course, being as the area has been invaded many times, there is DNA evidance of just about everyone there

and ????

Quoting alameda:


.....after all it is in the Fertile Crescent....aka the cradle of civilization.



alameda, this is now blah blah blah!

ps. how come this time you forgot to give your links?

104.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 01:48 pm

Quoting CANLI:


By what law ?


by what law egypt belongs to arabs? by what law persia belongs to muslims? by what law byzantium belongs to turks? so and on.

Quoting CANLI:


Britan has no rights on that land so it can give it to anyone she likes


canli, thats what you do when you occupy the country. it has been so for all the centuries.

Quoting CANLI:


İf so,why didnt it give them part of Britain itself,she actually own that land


well, great britain was actually an empire, if you know it. they also have occupied your country but granted it back to you. how britain was merciful in comparison to other empires!!!
if not british occupation you wouldnt be able today use internet (invented by evil western jews).

Quoting CANLI:


But you see,no one gives something REALLY belong to him.
So,you mean USA and Britain have the right now to give İraq to whome ever they wish ?!
That wasnt your opinion about İraq as i recall!


what i know is USA and UK are not invading, they will leave iraq, they are not establishing the 51st state in iraq.

Quoting CANLI:


So anyone can go to Nevada desert and claim the land there and make his own country over it?!lol
Thats really funny


if you can and invade the nevada (i see you prefer deserts only ) why not?

Quoting CANLI:


Actually Middle East have lots of goodies,so for long,long time we didnt have that pleasure so anyone can state such comment.


thats why the majority of middle east live in poverty?

105.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 02:18 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:



Who said Egypt belong to arabs?
Egypt belong to US,EGYPTİANS!

You are not EVEN making any sense ,so actually i wont bother to reply.
You know nothing about what happened back days,or what is happening,but as usual you are taking the side against Muslims,or Arabs,or Easters
İ guess habits dont die by time,how about if its a way of life ?!
You even contradicting yourself in your other posts,and now defending what you said in a naive way
So USA and UK told you about their actual plans,thats they wont stay in iraq,thats why they dont have a right there,but if they were planing to take it,so...
İ guess it would be ok in your opinion,because they occupied it ...!

İf you or anyone see any logic in what you say,please point it out!

Simply no one should take what it doesnt belong to him,
STEAL is a sin..didnt you know that ?!

And as i said,you just argue without knowledge,if you occupy some country for years and years,taking advantage of its resources,then later leaving it..or sometimes not 'as in İraq'
that would leave it in a rich state ?!

106.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 02:25 pm

Quoting CANLI:

And as i said,you just argue without knowledge,if you occupy some country for years and years,taking advantage of its resources,then later leaving it..or sometimes not 'as in İraq'
that would leave it in a rich state ?!



There are figures on this somewhere and I will have to check them. But... if you compare what the US has spent in the war, it would take them DECADES to make any profit from their resources.

107.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 02:45 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting CANLI:

And as i said,you just argue without knowledge,if you occupy some country for years and years,taking advantage of its resources,then later leaving it..or sometimes not 'as in İraq'
that would leave it in a rich state ?!



There are figures on this somewhere and I will have to check them. But... if you compare what the US has spent in the war, it would take them DECADES to make any profit from their resources.


yes, chack them.

what i heard is it would take USA 200 years to regain the means spent on iraq, if we talk about iraq oil lol

108.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 03:00 pm

Quoting CANLI:


Who said Egypt belong to arabs?
Egypt belong to US,EGYPTİANS!


canli, pls, dont expose your foolishness and your high education.

there are no copts in egypt anymore, copts were wiped away from the face of egypt, whats left is a little powerless minority/communities. egypt was christian country before it was invaded by wild arabs. are you giving egypt back to copts before you eliminate them all to the end?
what language do you speak in egypt? whats the official language?

Quoting CANLI:


You are not EVEN making any sense ,so actually i wont bother to reply.
You know nothing about what happened back days,or what is happening,but as usual you are taking the side against Muslims,or Arabs,or Easters
İ guess habits dont die by time,how about if its a way of life ?!
You even contradicting yourself in your other posts,and now defending what you said in a naive way
So USA and UK told you about their actual plans,thats they wont stay in iraq,thats why they dont have a right there,but if they were planing to take it,so...
İ guess it would be ok in your opinion,because they occupied it ...!

İf you or anyone see any logic in what you say,please point it out!


this doesnt make sense. you are difficult to read.

Quoting CANLI:



Simply no one should take what it doesnt belong to him,
STEAL is a sin..didnt you know that ?!



well, arabs have a lot to return, give all the lands and goods back to the world.
not mentioning mohammed was the one who loved robbing caravans
he s the great example for being a great invader.

Quoting CANLI:


And as i said,you just argue without knowledge,if you occupy some country for years and years,taking advantage of its resources,then later leaving it..or sometimes not 'as in İraq'
that would leave it in a rich state ?!


if i had your knowledge i wouldnt debate

watch this
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VTPJVnxbpqo

109.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:02 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting CANLI:

And as i said,you just argue without knowledge,if you occupy some country for years and years,taking advantage of its resources,then later leaving it..or sometimes not 'as in İraq'
that would leave it in a rich state ?!



There are figures on this somewhere and I will have to check them. But... if you compare what the US has spent in the war, it would take them DECADES to make any profit from their resources.


You mean USA will stay there for DECADES to gain the profits?!
Dont tell me USA and UK has invaded İraq for charity reasons !

110.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:10 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting CANLI:


Who said Egypt belong to arabs?
Egypt belong to US,EGYPTİANS!


canli, pls, dont expose your foolishness and your high education.



There is something called RESPECT if you dont know about it
And i dont accept that language from you,and will report it to admin
İf its not JUST in Forum rules to debat with RESPECT with each others,but also i guess that is what they've taught us while we were kids.

111.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:17 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting AEnigma III:


There are figures on this somewhere and I will have to check them. But... if you compare what the US has spent in the war, it would take them DECADES to make any profit from their resources.


yes, chack them.

what i heard is it would take USA 200 years to regain the means spent on iraq, if we talk about iraq oil lol


You are hallucinating, day dreaming about this topic..
You are delusional again
Some articles for you :

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Blood and oil: How the West will profit from Iraq's most precious commodity
some headlines: (in case you find it long )

The 'IoS' today reveals a draft for a new law that would give Western oil companies a massive share in the third largest reserves in the world. To the victors, the oil? That is how some experts view this unprecedented arrangement with a major Middle East oil producer that guarantees investors huge profits for the next 30 years


And Iraq's oil reserves, the third largest in the world, with an estimated 115 billion barrels waiting to be extracted, are a prize worth having. As Vice-President Dick Cheney noted in 1999, when he was still running Halliburton, an oil services company, the Middle East is the key to preventing the world running out of oil.

under a system known as "production-sharing agreements", or PSAs, oil majors such as BP and Shell in Britain, and Exxon and Chevron in the US, would be able to sign deals of up to 30 years to extract Iraq's oil.

PSAs allow a country to retain legal ownership of its oil, but gives a share of profits to the international companies that invest in infrastructure and operation of the wells, pipelines and refineries. Their introduction would be a first for a major Middle Eastern oil producer


In just 40 pages, Iraq is locked into sharing its oil with foreign investors for the next 30 years

A 40-page document leaked to the 'IoS' sets out the legal framework for the Iraqi government to sign production- sharing agreement contracts with foreign companies to develop its vast oil reserves.

The $50bn bonanza for US companies piecing a broken Iraq together

The task of rebuilding a shattered Iraq has gone mainly to US companies.

The largest beneficiary of reconstruction work in Iraq has been KBR (Kellogg, Brown & Root), a division of US giant Halliburton,



Iraq poised to end drought for thirsting oil giants
After 35 years, the third-largest reserves in the world are to be opened to American and British companies

=====
So usa and uk is not there for charity and got 1.000.000 Iraqis got killed for nothing.

112.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:27 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:


there are no copts in egypt anymore, copts were wiped away from the face of egypt, whats left is a little powerless minority/communities. egypt was christian country before it was invaded by wild arabs. are you giving egypt back to copts before you eliminate them all to the end?
what language do you speak in egypt? whats the official language?



West were not Christian before Christ,and Christianity,but now they are
So ALL Christian people in the world originally from here,Middle East where Christ came from?
There in NO British,Greeks,French...ect
All are middle Easterns invaded the west and made them believe in Christianity ?!

Dont bother to reply,because at that point i dont think you can add something can make any sense!

113.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:32 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting femme_fatal:


there are no copts in egypt anymore, copts were wiped away from the face of egypt, whats left is a little powerless minority/communities. egypt was christian country before it was invaded by wild arabs. are you giving egypt back to copts before you eliminate them all to the end?
what language do you speak in egypt? whats the official language?



West were not Christian before Christ,and Christianity,but now they are
So ALL Christian people in the world originally from here,Middle East where Christ came from?

There in NO British,Greeks,French...ect
All are middle Easters invaded the west and made them believe in Christianity ?!


actually i dont understand you.

Quoting CANLI:


Dont bother to reply,because at that point i dont think you can add something can make any sense!


well, first learn to write things clear and then we shall see what we can do about your post.

114.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:37 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:


well, arabs have a lot to return, give all the lands and goods back to the world.
not mentioning mohammed was the one who loved robbing caravans
he s the great example for being a great invader.



You wouldnt find Muslim show this lack of respect towards Christ
And even its aginist forum rules,but STİLL its allowed
WHY?
Because he is Muslim's prophet,not Christian's prophet?!

115.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:37 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

You are hallucinating, day dreaming about this topic..
You are delusional again




i dont believe oil and uranum theories. i have told you before all my points on this war. dont want to repeat.
like the millions of iraqis were killed by jihadists from all over the world, not actually from the USA bullets.



let us see and wait what happens next. if americans start stealing oil from iraq or not.

116.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:38 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:


actually i dont understand you.


İ didnt think you would !

117.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 05:47 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting thehandsom:

You are hallucinating, day dreaming about this topic..
You are delusional again



i dont believe oil and uranum theories. i have told you before all my points on this war. dont want to repeat.
like the millions of iraqis were killed by jihadists from all over the world, not actually from the USA bullets.


let us see and wait what happens next. if americans start stealing oil from iraq or not.


I think you have not read the articles femme.
They are not theories they are FACTS.
Oil robbing has already started..Check the major oil companies profits..
well, as far as the killed iraqis are concerned, If you are invading a country, and then removing its government by force like a bully, destroying everything there, removing its army and police and what did you expect? I would like to see what would have happened if someone removed the police and destroyed the the government engine in the USA. Even when there is an electricity problem for a night looting is starting there.
it is a fantastic logic actually..
Invade a country for saying that 'we will bring freedom' and fail miserably, could not protect them. And turn around and say 'but they are killing eachother'. Peh.

118.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 06:04 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Peh.

+1000000

119.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 06:34 pm

DEATH IN GAZA - documentarians James Miller and Saira Shah planned to produce an in-depth look at the culture of martyrdom and hate pervading the Middle East. In 2003, they chronicled the lives of three Palestinian adolescents growing up in war-torn Gaza.
Miller and Shah also wanted to show the Israeli side of the dispute, but during filming, Miller fell victim to the conflict when Isreali forces killed him. A tragic story.

Death in Gaza exposes the true horror that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has caused to both the Palestinians and the Israelis. The story by James Miller and Saira Shah show us how everyday Palestinians live. They never give any biased opinions on whether the Israelis are to blame for the current state the Palestinians live in, yet they show in a true journalistic fashion Palestinian life and culture in its fullest form. The movie is a documentation of children in Palestine and the struggles and dangers they face on an every day basis. It shows how they are pushed by cultural ideologies to believe that being a martyr is somehow more glorious than living a peaceful life. In the movie the children are the focal point of the movie. From an American standpoint it is a real eye-opener at the way they live, what they are taught at school, how they create bombs out of cans, and the way they are recruited by radical groups in Palestine to perform acts of terror against the Israelis. We are shown the other side to a conflict we only usually receive an Israeli voice for. The fact that director James Miller died creating this movie only adds to this dramatic documentary that made me think about what can we do to make this world a better place?

Baghdad Burning II
More Girl Blog From Iraq Riverbend from Feminist Press
www.feministpress.org

120.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 07:07 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting thehandsom:

You are hallucinating, day dreaming about this topic..
You are delusional again



i dont believe oil and uranum theories. i have told you before all my points on this war. dont want to repeat.
like the millions of iraqis were killed by jihadists from all over the world, not actually from the USA bullets.


let us see and wait what happens next. if americans start stealing oil from iraq or not.


I think you have not read the articles femme.
They are not theories they are FACTS.
Oil robbing has already started..Check the major oil companies profits..


we shall see...

Quoting thehandsom:


well, as far as the killed iraqis are concerned, If you are invading a country,


well, i still insist not to use the word.

Quoting thehandsom:


and then removing its government by force like a bully,


you mean the iraqi gov wasnt a bully?

Quoting thehandsom:


destroying everything there, removing its army and police and what did you expect?


they destroyed the old system, but building a new one.

Quoting thehandsom:


I would like to see what would have happened if someone removed the police and destroyed the the government engine in the USA.


they will not resist to build a new one by blowing thmselves in crowds or churches. they will as one pace re-build it.

Quoting thehandsom:


Even when there is an electricity problem for a night looting is starting there.


you know who started looting? the robbers and criminals, but not in the name of God.

Quoting thehandsom:


it is a fantastic logic actually..


i know

Quoting thehandsom:


Invade a country for saying that 'we will bring freedom' and fail miserably, could not protect them. And turn around and say 'but they are killing eachother'. Peh.


well, if you invade UK or USA, they will not blow themselves in order to fight the enemy.

theres a difference.

all arab nations have a hatred culture, they are raised to hate jews and christians.

121.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 08:22 pm

Quote:

well, i still insist not to use the word.



invading or occupation are the only ones I can think of

Quote:

you mean the iraqi gov wasnt a bully?



None of usa's bussiness who is bully or who is not. Why did they not invade north korea for example?

Quote:

they destroyed the old system, but building a new one.



instead of getting 1.000.000 people killed they should have left the iraq alone.

Quote:

they will not resist to build a new one by blowing thmselves in crowds or churches. they will as one pace re-build it.



Even under invation? assuming that usa or uk was invaded and a puppet govr. established and they will run to re-build it? why did western countries not do it in II WW and resisted the germans?

Quote:

you know who started looting? the robbers and criminals, but not in the name of God.



Some of them are resistance..and resisting to invation of your country is LEGITAMETE

Quote:

i know



sarcasm!

Quote:

well, if you invade UK or USA, they will not blow themselves in order to fight the enemy.



have you ever read the stories some resistance fighters went to battle knowing that they would die in Europe in II WW?

Quote:

theres a difference.

all arab nations have a hatred culture, they are raised to hate jews and christians.


very generalistic idea..smells racism too..I would insist you dont use it..

122.       catwoman
8933 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 08:25 pm

Mass graves discovered near Baghdad

123.       catwoman
8933 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 08:26 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting femme fatal:

theres a difference.

all arab nations have a hatred culture, they are raised to hate jews and christians.


very generalistic idea..smells racism too..I would insist you dont use it..


+1000000000000

124.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:02 pm

you would think that north korea doesnt have oil?
but not only iraq has oil.
iraq was one of the most military powerful state in middle east. why did they actually choose iraq but not saudi that has much more oil?

as for north korea. USA will never touch that country because Russia. north korea is protected by russia so are many other neighbours.

your political points are weak.

125.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:08 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

you would think that north korea doesnt have oil?
but not only iraq has oil.
iraq was one of the most military powerful state in middle east. why did they actually choose iraq but not saudi that has much more oil?

as for north korea. USA will never touch that country because Russia. north korea is protected by russia so are many other neighbours.

your political points are weak.



We will get that oil sooner or later, femme....I am working on a plan now! (bed amerikan laugh hahahahehehehohoho )

126.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:10 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

your political points are weak.



It all sounds very Star Wars
"Your powers are weak, young Canliwalker" or is it "handsomwalker".... lol

127.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:11 pm

Quoting thehandsom:


very generalistic idea..smells racism too..I would insist you dont use it..


silly boy, i dont mind being called a racist, i prefer being called a racist to keeping silent and acting hypocrite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd_hJ3HsJkc

and all arab nations raise their children :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t2WgUiHIfk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upbq9bwBxkA

128.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:13 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting femme_fatal:

your political points are weak.



It all sounds very Star Wars
"Your powers are weak, young Canliwalker" or is it "handsomwalker".... lol


i know, i know lol
im the power, everyone join me.
handsometalker sucks so does canlisweetcandy lol

129.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:14 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting femme_fatal:

your political points are weak.



It all sounds very Star Wars
"Your powers are weak, young Canliwalker" or is it "handsomwalker".... lol


i know, i know lol
im the power, everyone join me.
handsometalker sucks so does canlisweetcandy lol



If we strike you down you will become more powerful than we can ever imagine!!

130.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:29 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting femme_fatal:

your political points are weak.



It all sounds very Star Wars
"Your powers are weak, young Canliwalker" or is it "handsomwalker".... lol



Impressive, very impressive!! lol Come to the dark side Canli....we are much more fun!!

131.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 09:46 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting femme_fatal:

you would think that north korea doesnt have oil?
but not only iraq has oil.
iraq was one of the most military powerful state in middle east. why did they actually choose iraq but not saudi that has much more oil?

as for north korea. USA will never touch that country because Russia. north korea is protected by russia so are many other neighbours.

your political points are weak.



We will get that oil sooner or later, femme....I am working on a plan now! (bed amerikan laugh hahahahehehehohoho )


Hmmmm,not likely Liz im afraid, for 2 reasons
Nuclear weapons
Crusade

132.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 10:47 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting thehandsom:


very generalistic idea..smells racism too..I would insist you dont use it..


silly boy, i dont mind being called a racist, i prefer being called a racist to keeping silent and acting hypocrite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd_hJ3HsJkc

and all arab nations raise their children :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t2WgUiHIfk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upbq9bwBxkA


Ha ha
Are they the only source you could come up with?
Only youtube? Nothing else?

133.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 10:50 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting thehandsom:


very generalistic idea..smells racism too..I would insist you dont use it..


silly boy, i dont mind being called a racist, i prefer being called a racist to keeping silent and acting hypocrite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd_hJ3HsJkc

and all arab nations raise their children :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t2WgUiHIfk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upbq9bwBxkA


Ha ha
Are they the only source you could come up with?
Only youtube? Nothing else?


the video gives you the whole picture
you can get your beer and crisps and relax

or you think im rosweeta or alameda?

134.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 10:51 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

you would think that north korea doesnt have oil?
but not only iraq has oil.
iraq was one of the most military powerful state in middle east. why did they actually choose iraq but not saudi that has much more oil?

as for north korea. USA will never touch that country because Russia. north korea is protected by russia so are many other neighbours.

your political points are weak.


You have not read my links Femme. Have you?
And above the simplified version of your ideas about the world politics?
Or it is all of it?
Tut tut tut..
lol

135.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:02 pm

heres your article. i have read it. i still cant get your points.

By Danny Fortson, Andrew Murray-Watson and Tim Webb
Sunday, 7 January 2007

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war

Iraq's massive oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, are about to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by Western oil companies under a controversial law which is expected to come before the Iraqi parliament within days.

The US government has been involved in drawing up the law, a draft of which has been seen by The Independent on Sunday. It would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.

The huge potential prizes for Western firms will give ammunition to critics who say the Iraq war was fought for oil. They point to statements such as one from Vice-President Dick Cheney, who said in 1999, while he was still chief executive of the oil services company Halliburton, that the world would need an additional 50 million barrels of oil a day by 2010. "So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies," he said.

Oil industry executives and analysts say the law, which would permit Western companies to pocket up to three-quarters of profits in the early years, is the only way to get Iraq's oil industry back on its feet after years of sanctions, war and loss of expertise. But it will operate through "production-sharing agreements" (or PSAs) which are highly unusual in the Middle East, where the oil industry in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the world's two largest producers, is state controlled.

Opponents say Iraq, where oil accounts for 95 per cent of the economy, is being forced to surrender an unacceptable degree of sovereignty.

Proposing the parliamentary motion for war in 2003, Tony Blair denied the "false claim" that "we want to seize" Iraq's oil revenues. He said the money should be put into a trust fund, run by the UN, for the Iraqis, but the idea came to nothing. The same year Colin Powell, then Secretary of State, said: "It cost a great deal of money to prosecute this war. But the oil of the Iraqi people belongs to the Iraqi people; it is their wealth, it will be used for their benefit. So we did not do it for oil."

Supporters say the provision allowing oil companies to take up to 75 per cent of the profits will last until they have recouped initial drilling costs. After that, they would collect about 20 per cent of all profits, according to industry sources in Iraq. But that is twice the industry average for such deals.

Greg Muttitt, a researcher for Platform, a human rights and environmental group which monitors the oil industry, said Iraq was being asked to pay an enormous price over the next 30 years for its present instability. "They would lose out massively," he said, "because they don't have the capacity at the moment to strike a good deal."

Iraq's Deputy Prime Minister, Barham Salih, who chairs the country's oil committee, is expected to unveil the legislation as early as today. "It is a redrawing of the whole Iraqi oil industry [to] a modern standard," said Khaled Salih, spokesman for the Kurdish Regional Government, a party to the negotiations. The Iraqi government hopes to have the law on the books by March.

Several major oil companies are said to have sent teams into the country in recent months to lobby for deals ahead of the law, though the big names are considered unlikely to invest until the violence in Iraq abates.

James Paul, executive director at the Global Policy Forum, the international government watchdog, said: "It is not an exaggeration to say that the overwhelming majority of the population would be opposed to this. To do it anyway, with minimal discussion within the [Iraqi] parliament is really just pouring more oil on the fire."

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman and a former chief economist at Shell, said it was crucial that any deal would guarantee funds for rebuilding Iraq. "It is absolutely vital that the revenue from the oil industry goes into Iraqi development and is seen to do so," he said. "Although it does make sense to collaborate with foreign investors, it is very important the terms are seen to be fair."

136.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:06 pm

No further question and no more reading for you femme..
next time, I will try to find youtube links for you..lol

137.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:11 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

No further question and no more reading for you femme..
next time, I will try to find youtube links for you..lol


No!! Dammit handsom we don't need another alameda!!!

138.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:12 pm

heres you second article.


So was this what the Iraq war was fought for, after all? As the number of US soldiers killed since the invasion rises past the 3,000 mark, and President George Bush gambles on sending in up to 30,000 more troops, The Independent on Sunday has learnt that the Iraqi government is about to push through a law giving Western oil companies the right to exploit the country's massive oil reserves.

And Iraq's oil reserves, the third largest in the world, with an estimated 115 billion barrels waiting to be extracted, are a prize worth having. As Vice-President Dick Cheney noted in 1999, when he was still running Halliburton, an oil services company, the Middle East is the key to preventing the world running out of oil.

Now, unnoticed by most amid the furore over civil war in Iraq and the hanging of Saddam Hussein, the new oil law has quietly been going through several drafts, and is now on the point of being presented to the cabinet and then the parliament in Baghdad. Its provisions are a radical departure from the norm for developing countries: under a system known as "production-sharing agreements", or PSAs, oil majors such as BP and Shell in Britain, and Exxon and Chevron in the US, would be able to sign deals of up to 30 years to extract Iraq's oil.

PSAs allow a country to retain legal ownership of its oil, but gives a share of profits to the international companies that invest in infrastructure and operation of the wells, pipelines and refineries. Their introduction would be a first for a major Middle Eastern oil producer. Saudi Arabia and Iran, the world's number one and two oil exporters, both tightly control their industries through state-owned companies with no appreciable foreign collaboration, as do most members of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, Opec.

Critics fear that given Iraq's weak bargaining position, it could get locked in now to deals on bad terms for decades to come. "Iraq would end up with the worst possible outcome," said Greg Muttitt of Platform, a human rights and environmental group that monitors the oil industry. He said the new legislation was drafted with the assistance of BearingPoint, an American consultancy firm hired by the US government, which had a representative working in the American embassy in Baghdad for several months.

"Three outside groups have had far more opportunity to scrutinise this legislation than most Iraqis," said Mr Muttitt. "The draft went to the US government and major oil companies in July, and to the International Monetary Fund in September. Last month I met a group of 20 Iraqi MPs in Jordan, and I asked them how many had seen the legislation. Only one had."

Britain and the US have always hotly denied that the war was fought for oil. On 18 March 2003, with the invasion imminent, Tony Blair proposed the House of Commons motion to back the war. "The oil revenues, which people falsely claim that we want to seize, should be put in a trust fund for the Iraqi people administered through the UN," he said.

"The United Kingdom should seek a new Security Council Resolution that would affirm... the use of all oil revenues for the benefit of the Iraqi people."

That suggestion came to nothing. In May 2003, just after President Bush declared major combat operations at an end, under a banner boasting "Mission Accomplished", Britain co-sponsored a resolution in the Security Council which gave the US and UK control over Iraq's oil revenues. Far from "all oil revenues" being used for the Iraqi people, Resolution 1483 continued to make deductions from Iraq's oil earnings to pay compensation for the invasion of Kuwait in 1990.

That exception aside, however, the often-stated aim of the US and Britain was that Iraq's oil money would be used to pay for reconstruction. In July 2003, for example, Colin Powell, then Secretary of State, insisted: "We have not taken one drop of Iraqi oil for US purposes, or for coalition purposes. Quite the contrary... It cost a great deal of money to prosecute this war. But the oil of the Iraqi people belongs to the Iraqi people; it is their wealth, it will be used for their benefit. So we did not do it for oil."

Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Defense Secretary at the time of the war and now head of the World Bank, told Congress: "We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."

But this optimism has proved unjustified. Since the invasion, Iraqi oil production has dropped off dramatically. The country is now producing about two million barrels per day. That is down from a pre-war peak of 3.5 million barrels. Not only is Iraq's whole oil infrastructure creaking under the effects of years of sanctions, insurgents have constantly attacked pipelines, so that the only steady flow of exports is through the Shia-dominated south of the country.

Worsening sectarian violence and gangsterism have driven most of the educated élite out of the country for safety, depriving the oil industry of the Iraqi experts and administrators it desperately needs.

And even the present stunted operation is rife with corruption and smuggling. The Oil Ministry's inspector-general recently reported that a tanker driver who paid $500 in bribes to police patrols to take oil over the western or northern border would still make a profit on the shipment of $8,400.

"In the present state, it would be crazy to pump in more money, just to be stolen," said Greg Muttitt. "It's another reason not to bring in $20bn of foreign money now."

Before the war, Mr Bush endorsed claims that Iraq's oil would pay for reconstruction. But the shortage of revenues afterwards has silenced him on this point. More recently he has argued that oil should be used as a means to unify the country, "so the people have faith in central government", as he put it last summer.

But in a country more dependent than almost any other on oil - it accounts for 70 per cent of the economy - control of the assets has proved a recipe for endless wrangling. Most of the oil reserves are in areas controlled by the Kurds and Shias, heightening the fears of the Sunnis that their loss of power with the fall of Saddam is about to be compounded by economic deprivation.

The Kurds in particular have been eager to press ahead, and even signed some small PSA deals on their own last year, setting off a struggle with Baghdad. These issues now appear to have been resolved, however: a revenue-sharing agreement based on population was reached some months ago, and sources have told the IoS that regional oil companies will be set up to handle the PSA deals envisaged by the new law.

The Independent on Sunday has obtained a copy of an early draft which was circulated to oil companies in July. It is understood there have been no significant changes made in the final draft. The terms outlined to govern future PSAs are generous: according to the draft, they could be fixed for at least 30 years. The revelation will raise Iraqi fears that oil companies will be able to exploit its weak state by securing favourable terms that cannot be changed in future.

Iraq's sovereign right to manage its own natural resources could also be threatened by the provision in the draft that any disputes with a foreign company must ultimately be settled by international, rather than Iraqi, arbitration.

In the July draft obtained by The Independent on Sunday, legislators recognise the controversy over this, annotating the relevant paragraph with the note, "Some countries do not accept arbitration between a commercial enterprise and themselves on the basis of sovereignty of the state."

It is not clear whether this clause has been retained in the final draft.

Under the chapter entitled "Fiscal Regime", the draft spells out that foreign companies have no restrictions on taking their profits out of the country, and are not subject to any tax when doing this.

"A Foreign Person may repatriate its exports proceeds [in accordance with the foreign exchange regulations in force at the time]." Shares in oil projects can also be sold to other foreign companies: "It may freely transfer shares pertaining to any non-Iraqi partners." The final draft outlines general terms for production sharing agreements, including a standard 12.5 per cent royalty tax for companies.

It is also understood that once companies have recouped their costs from developing the oil field, they are allowed to keep 20 per cent of the profits, with the rest going to the government. According to analysts and oil company executives, this is because Iraq is so dangerous, but Dr Muhammad-Ali Zainy, a senior economist at the Centre for Global Energy Studies, said: "Twenty per cent of the profits in a production sharing agreement, once all the costs have been recouped, is a large amount." In more stable countries, 10 per cent would be the norm.

While the costs are being recovered, companies will be able to recoup 60 to 70 per cent of revenue; 40 per cent is more usual. David Horgan, managing director of Petrel Resources, an Aim-listed oil company focused on Iraq, said: "They are reasonable rates of return, and take account of the bad security situation in Iraq. The government needs people, technology and capital to develop its oil reserves. It has got to come up with terms which are good enough to attract companies. The major companies tend to be conservative."

Dr Zainy, an Iraqi who has recently visited the country, said: "It's very dangerous ... although the security situation is far better in the north." Even taking that into account, however, he believed that "for a company to take 20 per cent of the profits in a production sharing agreement once all the costs have been recouped is large".

He pointed to the example of Total, which agreed terms with Saddam Hussein before the second Iraq war to develop a huge field. Although the contract was never signed, the French company would only have kept 10 per cent of the profits once the company had recovered its costs.

And while the company was recovering its costs, it is understood it agreed to take only 40 per cent of the profits, the Iraqi government receiving the rest.

Production sharing agreements of more than 30 years are unusual, and more commonly used for challenging regions like the Amazon where it can take up to a decade to start production. Iraq, in contrast, is one of the cheapest and easiest places in the world to drill for and produce oil. Many fields have already been discovered, and are waiting to be developed.

Analysts estimate that despite the size of Iraq's reserves - the third largest in the world - only 2,300 wells have been drilled in total, fewer than in the North Sea.

Confirmation of the generous terms - widely feared by international non government organisations and Iraqis alike - have prompted some to draw parallels with the production-sharing agreements Russia signed in the 1990s, when it was bankrupt and in chaos.

At the time Shell was able to sign very favourable terms to develop oil and gas reserves off the coast of Sakhalin island in the far east of Russia. But at the end of last year, after months of thinly veiled threats from the environment regulator, the Anglo-Dutch company was forced to give Russian state-owned gas giant Gazprom a share in the project.

Although most other oil experts endorsed the view that PSAs would be needed to kick-start exports from Iraq, Mr Muttitt disagreed. "The most commonly mentioned target has been for Iraq to increase production to 6 million barrels a day by 2015 or so," he said. "Iraq has estimated that it would need $20bn to $25bn of investment over the next five or six years, roughly $4bn to $5bn a year. But even last year, according to reports, the Oil Ministry had between $3bn and $4bn it couldn't invest. The shortfall is around $1bn a year, and that could easily be made up if the security situation improved.

"PSAs have a cost in sovereignty and future revenues. It is not true at all that this is the only way to do it." Technical services agreements, of the type common in countries which have a state-run oil corporation, would be all that was necessary.

James Paul of Global Policy Forum, another advocacy group, said: "The US and the UK have been pressing hard on this. It's pretty clear that this is one of their main goals in Iraq." The Iraqi authorities, he said, were "a government under occupation, and it is highly influenced by that. The US has a lot of leverage... Iraq is in no condition right now to go ahead and do this."

Mr Paul added: "It is relatively easy to get the oil in Iraq. It is nowhere near as complicated as the North Sea. There are super giant fields that are completely mapped, [and] there is absolutely no exploration cost and no risk. So the argument that these agreements are needed to hedge risk is specious."

One point on which all agree, however, is that only small, maverick oil companies are likely to risk any activity in Iraq in the foreseeable future. "Production over the next year in Iraq is probably going to fall rather than go up," said Kevin Norrish, an oil analyst from Barclays. "The whole thing is held together by a shoestring; it's desperate."

An oil industry executive agreed, saying: "All the majors will be in Iraq, but they won't start work for years. Even Lukoil [of Russia], the Chinese and Total [of France] are not in a rush to endanger themselves. It's now very hard for US and allied companies because of the disastrous war."

Mr Muttitt echoed warnings that unfavourable deals done now could unravel a few years down the line, just when Iraq might become peaceful enough for development of its oil resources to become attractive. The seeds could be sown for a future struggle over natural resources which has led to decades of suspicion of Western motives in countries such as Iran.

Iraqi trade union leaders who met recently in Jordan suggested that the legislation would cause uproar once its terms became known among ordinary Iraqis.

"The Iraqi people refuse to allow the future of their oil to be decided behind closed doors," their statement said. "The occupier seeks and wishes to secure... energy resources at a time when the Iraqi people are seeking to determine their own future, while still under conditions of occupation."

The resentment implied in their words is ominous, and not only for oil company executives in London or Houston. The perception that Iraq's wealth is being carved up among foreigners can only add further fuel to the flames of the insurgency, defeating the purpose of sending more American troops to a country already described in a US intelligence report as a cause célèbre for terrorism.

America protects its fuel supplies - and contracts

Despite US and British denials that oil was a war aim, American troops were detailed to secure oil facilities as they fought their way to Baghdad in 2003. And while former defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld shrugged off the orgy of looting after the fall of Saddam's statue in Baghdad, the Oil Ministry - alone of all the seats of power in the Iraqi capital - was under American guard.

Halliburton, the firm that Dick Cheney used to run, was among US-based multinationals that won most of the reconstruction deals - one of its workers is pictured, tackling an oil fire. British firms won some contracts, mainly in security. But constant violence has crippled rebuilding operations. Bechtel, another US giant, has pulled out, saying it could not make a profit on work in Iraq.

In just 40 pages, Iraq is locked into sharing its oil with foreign investors for the next 30 years

A 40-page document leaked to the 'IoS' sets out the legal framework for the Iraqi government to sign production- sharing agreement contracts with foreign companies to develop its vast oil reserves.

The paper lays the groundwork for profit-sharing partnerships between the Iraqi government and international oil companies. It also lays out the basis for co-operation between Iraq's federal government and its regional authorities to develop oil fields.

The document adds that oil companies will enjoy contracts to extract Iraqi oil for up to 30 years, and stresses that Iraq needs foreign investment for the "quick and substantial funding of reconstruction and modernisation projects".

It concludes that the proposed hydrocarbon law is of "great importance to the whole nation as well as to all investors in the sector" and that the proceeds from foreign investment in Iraq's oilfields would, in the long term, decrease dependence on oil and gas revenues.

The role of oil in Iraq's fortunes

Iraq has 115 billion barrels of known oil reserves - 10 per cent of the world total. There are 71 discovered oilfields, of which only 24 have been developed. Oil accounts for 70 per cent of Iraq's GDP and 95 per cent of government revenue. Iraq's oil would be recovered under a production sharing agreement (PSA) with the private sector. These are used in only 12 per cent of world oil reserves and apply in none of the other major Middle Eastern oil-producing countries. In some countries such as Russia, where they were signed at a time of political upheaval, politicians are now regretting them.

The $50bn bonanza for US companies piecing a broken Iraq together

The task of rebuilding a shattered Iraq has gone mainly to US companies.

As well as contractors to restore the infrastructure, such as its water, electricity and gas networks, a huge number of companies have found lucrative work supporting the ongoing coalition military presence in the country. Other companies have won contracts to restore Iraq's media; its schools and hospitals; its financial services industry; and, of course, its oil industry.

In May 2003, the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), part of the US Department of Defence, created the Project Management Office in Baghdad to oversee Iraq's reconstruction.

In June 2004 the CPA was dissolved and the Iraqi interim government took power. But the US maintained its grip on allocating contracts to private companies. The management of reconstruction projects was transferred to the Iraq Reconstruction and Management Office, a division of the US Department of State, and the Project and Contracting Office, in the Department of Defence.

The largest beneficiary of reconstruction work in Iraq has been KBR (Kellogg, Brown & Root), a division of US giant Halliburton, which to date has secured contracts in Iraq worth $13bn (£7bn), including an uncontested $7bn contract to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure. Other companies benefiting from Iraq contracts include Bechtel, the giant US conglomerate, BearingPoint, the consultant group that advised on the drawing up of Iraq's new oil legislation, and General Electric. According to the US-based Centre for Public Integrity, 150-plus US companies have won contracts in Iraq worth over $50bn.

30,000 Number of Kellogg, Brown and Root employees in Iraq.

36 The number of interrogators employed by Caci, a US company, that have worked in the Abu Ghraib prison since August 2003.

$12.1bn UN's estimate of the cost of rebuilding Iraq's electricity network.

$2 trillion Estimated cost of the Iraq war to the US, according to the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

WHAT THEY SAID

"Oil revenues, which people falsely claim that we want to seize, should be put in a trust fund for the Iraqi people"

Tony Blair; Moving motion for war with Iraq, 18 March 2003

"Oil belongs to the Iraqi people; the government has... to be good stewards of that valuable asset "

George Bush; Press conference, 14 June 2006

"The oil of the Iraqi people... is their wealth. We did not [invade Iraq] for oil "

Colin Powell; Press briefing, 10 July 2003

"Oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50bn and $100bn in two or three years... [Iraq] can finance its reconstruction"

Paul Wolfowitz; Deputy Defense Secretary, March 2003

"By 2010 we will need [a further] 50 million barrels a day. The Middle East, with two-thirds of the oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize lies"

Dick Cheney; US Vice-President, 1999

139.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:14 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting femme_fatal:

you would think that north korea doesnt have oil?
but not only iraq has oil.
iraq was one of the most military powerful state in middle east. why did they actually choose iraq but not saudi that has much more oil?

as for north korea. USA will never touch that country because Russia. north korea is protected by russia so are many other neighbours.

your political points are weak.


You have not read my links Femme. Have you?
And above the simplified version of your ideas about the world politics?
Or it is all of it?
Tut tut tut..
lol


im not a philosopher, thats how i draw my deepest thoughts.
its very simple, usa will not dare to tease russia, at least not at this moment when theres a person like putin.

140.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:15 pm

and they dont make any sense to you?

141.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:19 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

No further question and no more reading for you femme..
next time, I will try to find youtube links for you..lol


read this article, sort of a sensational type. to draw peoples attention that have already foreseen it as an oil war.
nothing new. actually we dont know for sure if it would go further, thats first.
second, you wanted usa walk away from iraq after spending billions just like that? like in vietnam? or korea?
so, iraq will not profit from oil at all? usa will just drink it away without paying a pennie to iraq?

interesting

142.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:20 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

and they dont make any sense to you?


the articles make perfect sense. no joke
they just confirm my thoughts not yours, handsome.

143.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:24 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting thehandsom:

and they dont make any sense to you?


the articles make perfect sense. no joke
they just confirm my thoughts not yours, handsome.


And you did not see below then?
This is oil robbery silly girl


"production-sharing agreements", or PSAs, oil majors such as BP and Shell in Britain, and Exxon and Chevron in the US, would be able to sign deals of up to 30 years to extract Iraq's oil.

PSAs allow a country to retain legal ownership of its oil, but gives a share of profits to the international companies that invest in infrastructure and operation of the wells, pipelines and refineries. Their introduction would be a first for a major Middle Eastern oil producer. Saudi Arabia and Iran, the world's number one and two oil exporters, both tightly control their industries through state-owned companies with no appreciable foreign collaboration, as do most members of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, Opec.

144.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 05 Feb 2008 Tue 11:40 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting thehandsom:

and they dont make any sense to you?


the articles make perfect sense. no joke
they just confirm my thoughts not yours, handsome.


And you did not see below then?
This is oil robbery silly girl


"production-sharing agreements", or PSAs, oil majors such as BP and Shell in Britain, and Exxon and Chevron in the US, would be able to sign deals of up to 30 years to extract Iraq's oil.


silly boy, my country has loads of long term agreements with chevron, shell and bp. oh those evil westerners are robbing my country along with my government lol

Quoting thehandsom:


PSAs allow a country to retain legal ownership of its oil, but gives a share of profits to the international companies that invest in infrastructure and operation of the wells, pipelines and refineries. Their introduction would be a first for a major Middle Eastern oil producer. Saudi Arabia and Iran, the world's number one and two oil exporters, both tightly control their industries through state-owned companies with no appreciable foreign collaboration, as do most members of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, Opec.


to whom they sell the oil? who anyway exploires, drills, sells and buys? who would buy the oil if not the west?
the oil market/business has its own rules.

145.       Animal Mother
0 posts
 06 Feb 2008 Wed 02:22 am

semitic craps are on the play which titled dog eat dog. Who cares.

146.       admin
758 posts
 06 Feb 2008 Wed 05:02 am

Thread locked because of political discussion and personal attacks.

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