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Ataturk or Khomeini?
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10.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Jun 2008 Sat 11:49 pm

Quoting cynicmystic:

Swiss men gets 75 years for insulting the Thai king...

Gee, maybe us Turks should go to Thailand to learn their tactics...

http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/swiss-man-faces-75-years-jail-for-insulting-thai-king/

Another proof for you to realize that all these topics you post as problems inTurkey are actually a global problem.


We should be better than Thailand for sure.
And because it is ALSO hapening in Thailand, do you think we should just say 'ah..look..same shit is going on in Thailand as well..It is fine then'?

11.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Jun 2008 Sat 11:52 pm

Quoting cynicmystic:

Check this out...
Another gem from Europe - this time victim is a Polish priest ...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6945201/Polish-Radio-priest-faces-jail.html#abstract

See how global the epidemic is?


Well..
I am spending enough time with my own country's problems, it is better if poles dealt with that

12.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 12:07 am

I think, the point is missed up there.
The point I was trying to make was if a person should go to jail because of their 'feelings'.

Because those women, apperantly only said 'they DONT LIKE Ataturk'.

Liking or loving somebody is a feeling.

I was trying to say that it is one notch worse than other cases.

13.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 12:20 am

I agree with you on that. A person should not go to jail for expressing their feelings about something.

Sure. It is outright oppresion in a softcore package.

Quoting thehandsom:

I think, the point is missed up there.
The point I was trying to make was if a person should go to jail because of their 'feelings'.

Because those women, apperantly only said 'they DONT LIKE Ataturk'.

Liking or loving somebody is a feeling.

I was trying to say that it is one notch worse than other cases.

14.       alameda
3499 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 05:37 am

Unfortunately it's an international phenomenon...we are in a cycle now. It seems to come around about every 100 years. Adams had the

Alien and Sedition Act

threatened for wearing peace T-shirt

Now we have the

Military Commisions Act

The act was found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court on 12 June 2008...but they are fighting it.

the beginning of the end

....Woodrow Wilson insisted that the Espionage Act was necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use that Act to prosecute 2,000 Americans, especially those he disparaged as “Hyphenated Americans,” most of whom were guilty only of advocating peace in a time of war.

15.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 01:49 pm

I must say, the ideas of 'aah..this is a cycle; it is happening all over the world; look what was happening 100 years ago' are annoying me a lil bit.

Assume that 'a woman is burnt' today somewhere in the world or in Turkey. I, personally, would criticize and condemn it.
Then, would you come up with the idea that 'look it was happening in the middle ages, in Europe too' or 'look some women were burnt in Malaysia'?
It would be pathetic. would not it?
or it would not make it less acceptable. would it?

I think, in generic terms, you are completely forgetting the principles of how civilizations/human beings advance.
The ideas like 'The world has gone shit', 'the world goes crazy' are quite short sighted and derived from the luck of understanding of the philosophy- 'law of transformation'- ( the cycle of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis).
Nothing goes shit or crazy without a reason.
When something happens, it causes a reaction which itself bound cause another reaction.
There have been American policies in the middle east, Afghanistan, pakistan etc; They created al kaida. Al qaida caused 9/11; 9/11 caused paranoia of security in the west; it resulted tin those strange laws etc etc..
They will go away or they will be transformed into milder form in the future.
So calm down..

16.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 03:10 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

I must say, the ideas of 'aah..this is a cycle; it is happening all over the world; look what was happening 100 years ago' are annoying me a lil bit.



Yes, me too. You do not make something less worse by saying it has happened somewhere else too. Will you go heal the pain of all the childless parents in China by saying 'ah look, Japan has had an earthquake too!". You simply don't.

I understand that soem things have to be seen in a broader perspective, to understand that a situation is maybe not outrageously surprising somewhere or anything. But the fact that my country, the netherlands, has a law against insulting of our queen, does not make it less worse that Turkey has a law against insulting Atatürk. I am against both laws, but if you want to compare them dont just look at the law itself, but als at how it is practiced. In all my life, I have heard just of one case of which someone was judged by this law in the Netherlands, and it was because he was telling in public how he thought our queen was a whore and all the things he was gonna do to her. It was rather respectless, though I dont think a reason for punishment. I have been interested in Turkey only a couple of years, lets say 3, and Ive heard numerous cases of people who are put to trial on basis of this law. And then please compare the one case in the Netherlands, which seriously insulting and the numerous cases in Turkey, who are rather funny (like İpek Çalışlar in her book saying that Atatürk escaped dressed as a woman and that she was sued for that).

You can keep posting links about a 'world trend', but
(1) Maybe the laws are the same, but their actual usage differs
(2) It doesnt make the fact that this is a ridiculous law, wherever in the world it is, any less. So instead of posting contra-links, why don't just debate on it.
(3) It is Turkish class, it is very normal for members to just post about Turkey and not other parts of the world

17.       alameda
3499 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 06:33 pm

Everything happens in context. Things do not happen in a vacuum. Looking at the larger whole gives perspective, and possible answers to potential solutions.

If the world is in an ice age, ignoring that fact when considering the cold is not reasonable.

18.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 10:32 pm

We are not saying that "two wrongs make it right".

On the contrary... I think a lot of Turks agree with the element of injustice in these isolated incidents. Sure. What usually triggers us is that Turkey is actaully on the right path, and is on its way to eliminate a lot of these factors of discrimination in the future. It will take some more time, but it is, and has been happening.

I personally don't like it when foreigners come to these forums and gibber away as if, their countries were any different just 20 years ago. Someone from Poland comes along and gibbers away as if poland was any different during the Cold War era. Another comes from the US and gibbers away about human rights as if it wasn't in the US that you couldn't get a haircut at the same place as whites only as recently as 1960s.

Turkey is going through what every other developing country is going through today. Due to its geopolitical importance, and yes Turkey occupies a critical region on the map of power dynamics, Turkey is doing quite well. In comparison to its neighbours, it has a moderate system, not a dictatorship of one sort of the other. More importantly, the people, who happen to be living within the borders of Turkey, regardless of their ethnicities, are also changing, just as China is changing, or Latin America.

I think that I, as well as quite a few other posters, feel as if these threads are being started to rub shit on our faces. The truth is that we all have enough shit rubbed on faces already.

If you try to highlight a social injustice, at least try to show the courtesy of implicating that the issue is not unique or special to Turkey. Maybe that way, if you demonstrate your impartiality first, people may open themselves up in different ways than outright counter-attacks.

19.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 15 Jun 2008 Sun 10:58 pm

Well, just a short reaction as Im off to watch the second half of bad playing Turkey (what happened to them! When they play in their own teams they are so good, but in the Euro08 they seem to have forgotten how to play! Such a shame, I really hope they can get through).

It is not about rubbing shit in once face. The only reason I, and some others (among them thehandsom whom you probably also accuse of rubbing shit in one's face) criticize Turkey is because we love it. Just like you want, I want Turkey to develop the way others have before Turkey. The reason I said that saying that the same things in other countreis happens as well, is because there is a tendency on this website, that one says something 'bad' about Turkey, some people immedaitly say 'Yeah but it happens there and there too, and you are all anti-Turkish'. And those people have never tried to explain their opinions in a sophisticated way, on the contrary, many of us have been threatened by them lol And when we say something about Islam, the contra-argument is always about Christianity. I dont see the point, for me they are both as useless. So that is all I wanted to say But at least you (cynicmystic) are not of the type who tries to shut up people with 'Got it' and 'You cannot speak about my country' lol

20.       bydand
755 posts
 16 Jun 2008 Mon 12:17 am

Quoting cynicmystic:

We are not saying that "two wrongs make it right".

On the contrary... I think a lot of Turks agree with the element of injustice in these isolated incidents. Sure. What usually triggers us is that Turkey is actaully on the right path, and is on its way to eliminate a lot of these factors of discrimination in the future. It will take some more time, but it is, and has been happening.

I personally don't like it when foreigners come to these forums and gibber away as if, their countries were any different just 20 years ago. Someone from Poland comes along and gibbers away as if poland was any different during the Cold War era. Another comes from the US and gibbers away about human rights as if it wasn't in the US that you couldn't get a haircut at the same place as whites only as recently as 1960s.

Turkey is going through what every other developing country is going through today. Due to its geopolitical importance, and yes Turkey occupies a critical region on the map of power dynamics, Turkey is doing quite well. In comparison to its neighbours, it has a moderate system, not a dictatorship of one sort of the other. More importantly, the people, who happen to be living within the borders of Turkey, regardless of their ethnicities, are also changing, just as China is changing, or Latin America.

I think that I, as well as quite a few other posters, feel as if these threads are being started to rub shit on our faces. The truth is that we all have enough shit rubbed on faces already.

If you try to highlight a social injustice, at least try to show the courtesy of implicating that the issue is not unique or special to Turkey. Maybe that way, if you demonstrate your impartiality first, people may open themselves up in different ways than outright counter-attacks.



Brilliant post cynicmystic very well said, the best I have seen here in a long time.There is a lot of flame baiting going on here and some have reacted in the wrong way but you have put it in a nutshell, well done!

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