Quoting cynicmystic:

We are not saying that "two wrongs make it right".

On the contrary... I think a lot of Turks agree with the element of injustice in these isolated incidents. Sure. What usually triggers us is that Turkey is actaully on the right path, and is on its way to eliminate a lot of these factors of discrimination in the future. It will take some more time, but it is, and has been happening.

I personally don't like it when foreigners come to these forums and gibber away as if, their countries were any different just 20 years ago. Someone from Poland comes along and gibbers away as if poland was any different during the Cold War era. Another comes from the US and gibbers away about human rights as if it wasn't in the US that you couldn't get a haircut at the same place as whites only as recently as 1960s.

Turkey is going through what every other developing country is going through today. Due to its geopolitical importance, and yes Turkey occupies a critical region on the map of power dynamics, Turkey is doing quite well. In comparison to its neighbours, it has a moderate system, not a dictatorship of one sort of the other. More importantly, the people, who happen to be living within the borders of Turkey, regardless of their ethnicities, are also changing, just as China is changing, or Latin America.

I think that I, as well as quite a few other posters, feel as if these threads are being started to rub shit on our faces. The truth is that we all have enough shit rubbed on faces already.

If you try to highlight a social injustice, at least try to show the courtesy of implicating that the issue is not unique or special to Turkey. Maybe that way, if you demonstrate your impartiality first, people may open themselves up in different ways than outright counter-attacks.

Quoting cynicmystic:

We are not saying that "two wrongs make it right".

Quote:

On the contrary... I think a lot of Turks agree with the element of injustice in these isolated incidents. Sure. What usually triggers us is that Turkey is actaully on the right path, and is on its way to eliminate a lot of these factors of discrimination in the future. It will take some more time, but it is, and has been happening.

Quote:

I personally don't like it when foreigners come to these forums and gibber away as if, their countries were any different just 20 years ago. Someone from Poland comes along and gibbers away as if Poland was any different during the Cold War era. Another comes from the US and gibbers away about human rights as if it wasn't in the US that you couldn't get a haircut at the same place as whites only as recently as 1960s.

Quote:

Turkey is going through what every other developing country is going through today. Due to its geopolitical importance, and yes Turkey occupies a critical region on the map of power dynamics, Turkey is doing quite well. In comparison to its neighbours, it has a moderate system, not a dictatorship of one sort of the other. More importantly, the people, who happen to be living within the borders of Turkey, regardless of their ethnicities, are also changing, just as China is changing, or Latin America.

Quote:

I think that I, as well as quite a few other posters, feel as if these threads are being started to rub shit on our faces. The truth is that we all have enough shit rubbed on faces already.

If you try to highlight a social injustice, at least try to show the courtesy of implicating that the issue is not unique or special to Turkey. Maybe that way, if you demonstrate your impartiality first, people may open themselves up in different ways than outright counter-attacks.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Check this out...
Another gem from Europe - this time victim is a Polish priest ...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6945201/Polish-Radio-priest-faces-jail.html#abstract

See how global the epidemic is?

Quoting cynicmystic:

We are not saying that "two wrongs make it right".

On the contrary... I think a lot of Turks agree with the element of injustice in these isolated incidents. Sure. What usually triggers us is that Turkey is actaully on the right path, and is on its way to eliminate a lot of these factors of discrimination in the future. It will take some more time, but it is, and has been happening.

I personally don't like it when foreigners come to these forums and gibber away as if, their countries were any different just 20 years ago. Someone from Poland comes along and gibbers away as if poland was any different during the Cold War era. Another comes from the US and gibbers away about human rights as if it wasn't in the US that you couldn't get a haircut at the same place as whites only as recently as 1960s.

Turkey is going through what every other developing country is going through today. Due to its geopolitical importance, and yes Turkey occupies a critical region on the map of power dynamics, Turkey is doing quite well. In comparison to its neighbours, it has a moderate system, not a dictatorship of one sort of the other. More importantly, the people, who happen to be living within the borders of Turkey, regardless of their ethnicities, are also changing, just as China is changing, or Latin America.

I think that I, as well as quite a few other posters, feel as if these threads are being started to rub shit on our faces. The truth is that we all have enough shit rubbed on faces already.

If you try to highlight a social injustice, at least try to show the courtesy of implicating that the issue is not unique or special to Turkey. Maybe that way, if you demonstrate your impartiality first, people may open themselves up in different ways than outright counter-attacks.

Quoting peacetrain:

Quoting Daydreamer:

you just couldn't find a better example. That "victim" is a hate-mongering businessman rather than priest. He created an empire in Poland with his "Radio Maryja" He's guilty of embezzlement, and numerous cons. He's got what we call "A Mohair Army" - elderly ladies wearing mohair hats and treating him like god. He drives a Maybach and is one of the richest people in Poland. Also, he's an anti-semite, in his radio auditions he openly talks about it. Actually many people here would like him for the global Jewish conspiracy theory they share...
He didn't shoulder any consequences for calling presidents wife a witch and saying about her that a cesspit will never be a perfume shop.

If you consider freedom of speech insulting then you're wrong. If anybody says they dislike our president, Church or Poland, there's no basis for charges. But even if my neighbour calls me an idiot, I can sue him. It's simple - criticise but don't insult.

Also, the government functioning at that time was overthrown (no, not by an army - imagine that) but by means of earlier elections as a lot of people were dissatisfied with how close they were to violating freedoms of free speech.

Still, I'm moved that you chose Poland to exemplify your argument. However, if you speak about Poles who had no freedom of speech 50 years ago, do remember that we were not an independent country. We can be held responsible for what goes on in Poland from 1989 and, there's a lot of dirt to dust. I don't understand that any comment on how Turkey should improve gains such bitter reactions. Don't say that only when foreigners say so, because even the Turks who openly say "yeah, we have a few problems" immediately get barked at. Nobody here joined this site to express their hate to Turkey (at least I haven't observed anyone like that). Just the opposite, we all felt good being there and now we're trying to learn about this country. Learn meaning see the good and the bad things, as there are many bad things about Turkey as well as good ones. Meanwhile, some people here act as if there was nothing bad to work on. In each country there is, why should Turkey be different?

Some say that this forum is biased, it is untrue, all those users you called one-sided, posted inflammatory posts etc, have done a huge job praising some aspects of Turkey. Had you been a member here for a little longer, you'd have seen it.

Quoting catwoman:

Quote:

I cannot sleep last night because of the shock that i faced in the TV program Teke Tek. My aim is to discuss headscarf issue wit the girls who are educating in universities. Two of my guests were wearing headscarf and other two are not. One of the girls who is not wearing headscarf, declared herself liberal and the other one declared herself Kemalist. All four girls are working in the associations paralel to their views. And be sure that, no program that i prepared, shocked me like this one. Nuray who has been acting on headscsarf propogand since 1999, defending the education rights with headscarf and addes that this should also encompass all the rights to work for state jobs. These are the ideas we got used to hear. All the headscarf activists hold on this subject. Namely the change in the constitution which AKP done and later cancelled, is not enough for them. It is also known. But Nuray carried subject to another demands. I asked Nuray “ who can guarantee that in future you wont demand to judge according to your beliefs since you wont satisfied with juristicals made by legislation, namely who can guarantee that in furure you wont demand a Kadı(Islamic judge) to judge you?”
Answer is sincere. “Nobody can guarantee. Even we want this. Why one cannot be judged according to laws that he/she believes?”
I was shocked.
I replied and asked “This means multiple juristicals. How can something like that be exist in democracy?”
“Why not” she added.
Later then i asked the other girl with headscarf named Kevser;
“You imply that the coercion regime in Iran cannot be an example of Islam but you have photos of Humeyni in your facebook page?”
-Yes there are. I love Humeyni so much.
-Isnt that the one who is the founder of the Iranian regime?
-Today it is not same, damaged.
Then i asked again
-Ok then you love Humeyni so much, what about Atatürk?
-He was very succeeded as a soldier.
The emphasis on military took my attention.
Later i asked the same question the other headscarfed Nuray.
-What about you?Do you love Atatürk?
Firstly she was confused, she couldnt decide what she would say.
And later replied sincerely ;
-No, i dont like Atatürk
-Why?
-The all suffering we face throughout the last 85 years is because of him.
-Thats good but the man you dont like, saved us from the occupation of Englishs, Frenchs, Greeks. We became an independent nation by the help of his leadership. If he was not present, today we could be still living under the domination of another nation, we will surely be a colony”
But Nuray was decisive;
-Atatürk did not start the Independence war, it was started by the believing muslims. It was started in Maraş by muslims and the instigation was headscarf of a woman tried to be pull-out. It is not related to Atatürk.
I replied;
-If Atatürk had not managed to organize this war, this you mentioned above is suppressed.
-Maybe it would be more better. We could live our religion better under the domination of another nation. We could be more free.
Dear Readers, this is the situation of what Turkish Republic faced.
Thats the one above which is wanted.
It is not voiced today maybe but thats the one which will be demanded.
Thats why there are reactions to the decision of Supreme Court.
Thats the revenge trying to be taken from Turkish Republic.
The envelope is freedom.
The envelope is democracy.
The envelope is liberalism.
If it is accepted.
If it is not, by force, they say like this.
Note: My liberal guest who explains her views on an utopic world, seems so pleased when congrulating sms messages sent to her phone by headscarfed women.

Quoting armegon:

-Maybe it would be more better. We could live our religion better under the domination of another nation. We could be more free.

Quoting armegon:

The quote below is the writing of program maker after the program. Another paranoid . Actually thehandsom is not more different than the girls who believe living under the domination of another nation is beter. They are on same boat.
p.s: it is translated roughly and quickly sorry for bad english.