General/Off-topic |
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What is wrong with Muslims?
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| 50. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 10:55 am |
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Quoting lady in red: Quoting libralady: Quoting CANLI:
We like OUR religion the way it is,we wont REFORM it the way YOU ''none Muslims' like
And CERTAİNLY we wont be taught about OUR religion and the way to practice it from none Muslims !
We will always be as we are ...Muslims
And guess what, we wont go anywhere either,we will always be here too same as you 'None Muslims' do
So ,dont you think its about time that we learn to live together the way we both are because that is what WAS and what İS and what WİLL going to be also maybe you 'None Muslims' learn to accept it even if you hate it ?! |
Don't get so upset and take things so personally! If thousands, no sorry millions of Christians came to your country and expect you to build churches, and make sure they had Christianity taught in schoolos, expected your country to make changes to accomodate them, and would not integrate you would understand better I am sure. No one is denegrading all Muslims so please dont take it like that.
You say we should learn to live together, I agree, then why do we have a city in England, Leicester, where now the balance has swung and white Britons are the minority and integration has not happened. Do we now have to integrate with the Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs? There are whole areas of most big cities where you would think you are in a different country.
We don't hate it, most British people tolerate it, but we just would like them to accept our way of life a little more and not expect us to bow down to them. If they want to live in Britain then accept us!!!!!!! |
+1 - very well put LL but you forgot schoolchildren not being allowed to celebrate Christmas in many schools in case it causes offence - I believe they have to refer to it as 'The Winter Holiday' or something equally ridiculous. |
and what is wrong with this? no secular country would allow religious celebrations in schools. That shows how secular Europe is.
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| 51. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 11:32 am |
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Quoting tamikidakika: Quoting lady in red: Quoting libralady: Quoting CANLI:
We like OUR religion the way it is,we wont REFORM it the way YOU ''none Muslims' like
And CERTAİNLY we wont be taught about OUR religion and the way to practice it from none Muslims !
We will always be as we are ...Muslims
And guess what, we wont go anywhere either,we will always be here too same as you 'None Muslims' do
So ,dont you think its about time that we learn to live together the way we both are because that is what WAS and what İS and what WİLL going to be also maybe you 'None Muslims' learn to accept it even if you hate it ?! |
Don't get so upset and take things so personally! If thousands, no sorry millions of Christians came to your country and expect you to build churches, and make sure they had Christianity taught in schoolos, expected your country to make changes to accomodate them, and would not integrate you would understand better I am sure. No one is denegrading all Muslims so please dont take it like that.
You say we should learn to live together, I agree, then why do we have a city in England, Leicester, where now the balance has swung and white Britons are the minority and integration has not happened. Do we now have to integrate with the Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs? There are whole areas of most big cities where you would think you are in a different country.
We don't hate it, most British people tolerate it, but we just would like them to accept our way of life a little more and not expect us to bow down to them. If they want to live in Britain then accept us!!!!!!! |
+1 - very well put LL but you forgot schoolchildren not being allowed to celebrate Christmas in many schools in case it causes offence - I believe they have to refer to it as 'The Winter Holiday' or something equally ridiculous. |
and what is wrong with this? no secular country would allow religious celebrations in schools. That shows how secular Europe is. |
Not sure you got my point tamiki - this is a situation where Christian children are not allowed to celebrate a Christian festival in case members of other religions are offended.
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| 52. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 11:42 am |
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Quoting lady in red:
Not sure you got my point tamiki - this is a situation where Christian children are not allowed to celebrate a Christian festival in case members of other religions are offended. |
here is what you said;
"you forgot schoolchildren not being allowed to celebrate Christmas in many schools in case it causes offence"
So what did I get wrong??? You`re telling that celebrating Christmas in schools should be allowed. Do we celebrate ramadan or other religious days here in schools in Turkey?
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| 53. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 12:10 pm |
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Quoting tamikidakika: Quoting lady in red:
Not sure you got my point tamiki - this is a situation where Christian children are not allowed to celebrate a Christian festival in case members of other religions are offended. |
here is what you said;
'you forgot schoolchildren not being allowed to celebrate Christmas in many schools in case it causes offence'
So what did I get wrong??? You`re telling that celebrating Christmas in schools should be allowed. Do we celebrate ramadan or other religious days here in schools in Turkey? |
I don't know - do you? And if not, why not?
But the point is, in Britain Christmas is celebrated by Christians and part of this has always been schoolchildren putting on Nativity plays and Christmas Carol concerts. Apparently these events now cause offense to non-Christians. Actually, I don't think they ever caused offense to atheists, agnostics, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons,Jehova's Witnesses or any other religious or non-religious group you can think of, but if anyone objected because of their beliefs then they were entitled to ask for their child to be excluded from the celebration - not have it banned altogether.
Oh - and your last comment - I wasn't aware that what we do in the UK is governed by what goes on in Turkey 
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| 54. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 12:24 pm |
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Quoting lady in red:
I don't know - do you?
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I know. we don`t. We only celebrate the national days in schools.
Quoting lady in red:
But the point is, in Britain Christmas is celebrated by Christians and part of this has always been schoolchildren putting on Nativity plays and Christmas Carol concerts. Apparently these events now cause offense to non-Christians. Actually, I don't think they ever caused offense to atheists, agnostics, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons,Jehova's Witnesses or any other religious or non-religious group you can think of, but if anyone objected because of their beliefs then they were entitled to ask for their child to be excluded from the celebration - not have it banned altogether.
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what if the Muslim students want to celebrate the sacrifice day in schools? will they allow them to slaughter a bull in schools? if not, why not? besides it`s equality.
and as for your last comment, you can do whatever you want in the UK, but you can`t call it a secular country if you celebrate Christmas in schools.
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| 55. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 12:41 pm |
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Quoting lady in red: Quoting tamikidakika: Quoting lady in red: Quoting libralady: Quoting CANLI:
We like OUR religion the way it is,we wont REFORM it the way YOU ''none Muslims' like
And CERTAİNLY we wont be taught about OUR religion and the way to practice it from none Muslims !
We will always be as we are ...Muslims
And guess what, we wont go anywhere either,we will always be here too same as you 'None Muslims' do
So ,dont you think its about time that we learn to live together the way we both are because that is what WAS and what İS and what WİLL going to be also maybe you 'None Muslims' learn to accept it even if you hate it ?! |
Don't get so upset and take things so personally! If thousands, no sorry millions of Christians came to your country and expect you to build churches, and make sure they had Christianity taught in schoolos, expected your country to make changes to accomodate them, and would not integrate you would understand better I am sure. No one is denegrading all Muslims so please dont take it like that.
You say we should learn to live together, I agree, then why do we have a city in England, Leicester, where now the balance has swung and white Britons are the minority and integration has not happened. Do we now have to integrate with the Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs? There are whole areas of most big cities where you would think you are in a different country.
We don't hate it, most British people tolerate it, but we just would like them to accept our way of life a little more and not expect us to bow down to them. If they want to live in Britain then accept us!!!!!!! |
+1 - very well put LL but you forgot schoolchildren not being allowed to celebrate Christmas in many schools in case it causes offence - I believe they have to refer to it as 'The Winter Holiday' or something equally ridiculous. |
and what is wrong with this? no secular country would allow religious celebrations in schools. That shows how secular Europe is. |
Not sure you got my point tamiki - this is a situation where Christian children are not allowed to celebrate a Christian festival in case members of other religions are offended. |
Statutory requirement for the teaching of Religious Education (not Instruction) in State schools in England and Wales.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880040_en_2.htm
The Government's suggested Scheme of Work for the teaching of RE. The scheme is not Statutory and Local Education Authorities can develop their own.
http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/schemes2/religion/principles?view=get
Children's Knowledge and Understanding of the World is planned for across the National Curriculum and through Religious Educations. Children learn ABOUT different faiths, especially those that make up the UK and especially Christianity.
I work in a school in Lancashire and the Lancashire Agreed Syllabus ensures between ages 5-16, 50% of learning is about Christianity and the other 50% is made up of Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism and Budhism. The ratio of these 5 faiths may vary, depending on the local community.
In my school 50% of the children are Muslim and in my 14 years experience they have always enjoyed sharing the Religious Traditions of their own faith, but also those of others. Children learn about the worship, traditions, holy scriptures and buildings.
The school has Christmas parties and Eid parties. There is always a school lunch prepared as a Christian Christmas meal would be, so that children learn about the Christian tradition. Halal and non halal turkey/chicken is provided. Those children who normally have a packed lunch are invited to have a school meal on the day. Father Christmas also visits the school. Similarly, a special school lunch is provided after Ramadhan and it reflects the food eaten in a typical Muslim home.
There is a Christmas concert each year and the Nativity is always performed. Parents are invited and tickets are always sold out. There have never been any complaints and none of the Muslim children have ever been withdrawn from proceedings by their parents.
The school works closely with all parents. Parents have the right to withdraw their children from Religious Education lessons and collective worship (CW is compulsory but children may be withdrawn by written request). I can think of only 3 families who have made this request in the last 14 years - 1 Pagan family and 2 Jehovah's Witness families.
I think, as a multicultural nation, we have a responsibility to teach children about the different belief systems, their histories and their traditions. The children in schools today are our future.
There are Islamic schools in the town where I work and also Catholic and Church of England schools. These schools may produce their scheme of work in line with their Regional See or Diocese. All state schools, Religious or not, do teach ABOUT other faiths. I work in a non religion based primary school and the atmosphere is great. Parents often mention that they prefer their children to attend our school because we reflect the cultural balance of the town's community. We have a school bus because many Muslim parents want their children to attend a multicultual school, not an Islamic school or a school that is mainly/mostly made up of Muslim children. They want a school that exposes their children to rich and diverse cultures. This seems sensible to me as it prepares them for real life, out of school.
Views change slightly once children reach High School age, but I would say it is mainly because parents want a good education for their children. Primary Education is, in the main, consistently good whereas there can be wide fluctuations in standards in the Secondary arena.
Entry to Church High schools is very competitive and I have known non Muslims go to church regularly for a few years, with the sole intention of winning a place at the school. Private, Church or Islamic schools are increasingly preferred by Muslim parents.
From the age of 5, Muslim children attend "Mosque School" between the hours of approx. 5pm to 7pm Monday to Friday.
Heads of schools in the Town meet every month or so to discuss any issues or strategies and this includes the Church and Islamic schools,primary and Secondary sector. Whilst we are a non religious primary school it has built up a relationship with a local Church and Mosque and visits are made to the places of Worship so that children can see what they are like.
I'm sure there are Local Authorities and schools in the UK that do things differently to the Authority I work within. I just felt it important to explain my experience so that non UK residents on this site understand that there is good practice of inclusion/education in the UK and not all establishments succumb to pressure or assume there will be a problem when, in fact, there may not be.
I think it is so important that children learn about other faiths and have positive experiences to take with them as they grow into our adults of the future.
Just a little funny story. Many years ago the school photographer made her annual visit to take indivivual and family photos of the children. Several weeks later the photos arrived in school. Somehow 2 children, one Indian Heritage and one White British Hertiage had managed to have their photo taken togather  .
Children (all children, whatever background) aren't born with prejudice, they learn it, through relationships, experiences, the media and education.
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| 56. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 12:50 pm |
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Quote:
what if the Muslim students want to celebrate the sacrifice day in schools? will they allow them to slaughter a bull in schools? if not, why not? besides it`s equality. |
Maybe if our children get Christmas back but unfortunatley I doubt that Health and Safety would allow it.
Quote: and as for your last comment, you can do whatever you want in the UK, but you can`t call it a secular country if you celebrate Christmas in schools. |
OK I promise I won't.
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| 57. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 01:41 pm |
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Schools have nothing to do with the 'non'secularism of a country. The Netherlands are a secular country, but we have schools with a Christian vision, an Islamic vision, public schools that have no religious vision, schools that teach according to the montessori or jenaplan vision. That does not make us less secular. It makes us secular because there is space for all religions to establish themselves in a school.
Tamikidakika, you may say your schoolsystem is more secular than, for instnace the UK, because they allow Christian festivities and Turkey does not. But in Turkish primary schools Sunni Islam is a compulsory lesson. In schools in the Netherlands, the type of religious education depends on the type of school you choose, it doesn't 'depend' on the fact that every state sponsored primary school offers obliged Sunni İslam lessons. They aren't as obliged as they used to be, Christian parents can send the Turkish schools letters that they are not Muslim and therefore their children don't have to take these lessons. Yes, a big improvement. But what about Alevis? They consider themselves Muslim, but they have to write a letter to the schoolprincipal 'that they are not Muslim' (though they consider themselves Muslim) in order for their children not to take Sunni lessons. How secular is that?
You can't debate on secularism comparing the UK, The Netherlands and Turkey. Because the meaning of secularism is different in those places. In the Netherlands, secularism means that the state doesnt interfere with religion, that you can establish religious schools and that parents are free to choose what school they send their children to. It means that you can celebrate Christmas with a schoolplay in a church, and you can celebrate Ramazan with an iftar-meal in the schoolhall. If you're lucky, your school does both.
In Turkey it means direct control of religion by the state, where the state has picked Sunni İslam to be the 'right' religion that needs state protection and state interference. Its no use to debate on secularism or education without keeping that in your mind. But what you say, is simply untrue: different types of education do not make a country less secular.
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| 58. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 04:15 pm |
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Ist your school, Peacetrain?
Pupils were ‘disrespectful of prophet’
CHESHIRE council has launched an investigation after pupils were punished for refusing to kneel and pray to Allah during a religious education lesson.
Parents complained after the two boys, year 7 pupils at Alsager high school, were given detention for being “disrespectful†to the prophet.
Parent Sharon Luinen said: “This isn’t right, it’s taking things too far.
“I understand that they have to learn about other religions, but it is taking it a step too far to be punished.â€
Cheshire county council confirmed that parents had complained about the lesson, and said the circumstances of the incident were to be “thoroughly†looked into.
A spokesman said: “Educating children in the beliefs of different faiths is part of our diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is, of course, essential to understanding.â€
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| 59. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 04:22 pm |
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Quoting zhang ziyi:
Ist your school, Peacetrain?
Pupils were ‘disrespectful of prophet’
CHESHIRE council has launched an investigation after pupils were punished for refusing to kneel and pray to Allah during a religious education lesson.
Parents complained after the two boys, year 7 pupils at Alsager high school, were given detention for being “disrespectful†to the prophet.
Parent Sharon Luinen said: “This isn’t right, it’s taking things too far.
“I understand that they have to learn about other religions, but it is taking it a step too far to be punished.â€
Cheshire county council confirmed that parents had complained about the lesson, and said the circumstances of the incident were to be “thoroughly†looked into.
A spokesman said: “Educating children in the beliefs of different faiths is part of our diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is, of course, essential to understanding.â€
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Can you quote your source please zhan zyi?
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| 60. |
06 Jul 2008 Sun 04:35 pm |
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Quoting zhang ziyi:
Ist your school, Peacetrain?
Pupils were ‘disrespectful of prophet’
CHESHIRE council has launched an investigation after pupils were punished for refusing to kneel and pray to Allah during a religious education lesson.
Parents complained after the two boys, year 7 pupils at Alsager high school, were given detention for being “disrespectful†to the prophet.
Parent Sharon Luinen said: “This isn’t right, it’s taking things too far.
“I understand that they have to learn about other religions, but it is taking it a step too far to be punished.â€
Cheshire county council confirmed that parents had complained about the lesson, and said the circumstances of the incident were to be “thoroughly†looked into.
A spokesman said: “Educating children in the beliefs of different faiths is part of our diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is, of course, essential to understanding.â€
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No this is not my school.
I'm surprised children were made to do such a thing in a lesson and whoever planned it has been misguided at best. To "punish" the children also seems extreme.
There will always be such stories, but I believe they are the exception rather than the norm.
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