Can anyone tell me what the life of a Turkish man, mid twenties, working as a waiter at a resort hotel would be like?

Oooooo don't tempt me!! Erm, depends on the guy I suppose

do you think all turkish boys do same things? everybody has a different life-style.

sleeps on bed. drinks tea at breakfast.

Obviously bored Barkin..... Bless you

He is a little too much interested on top end cell phones. He knows all the unnecessary information about makes and models.

Most of his collogues are very close friends of him. They share their experiences especially about foreign girls and there is always some dirty talking going on now and then.

They have come to this place for the season only and they stay together in a place close by. They share their lives. It is almost impossible for him to exist as an individual and to have his own values, style, private life etc. There is no such thing as enjoying your free time on your own.

He can not survive on his own. This is especially true when living in a foreign town. He must find his own people. For him the place where people are originated is very important. If another guy is from the same town as himself or a neighbor town, this alone is enough to be good friends and to share almost everything about his life after hours.

Of course it is not easy living far away from relatives (since independence is something they have heard about but are not sure what it is exactly). So, because of the sorrow of being far from relatives or the support of a known community, they like to drink from time to time accompanied with some suitable dark music.

He is not interested on the serious things in life and has always plans to earn lots of money the easy way without much effort. Of course it would not be a big deal if these things are a little bit illegal. He believes strongly that talent, effort, education, professionalizing etc are not so important and wont help much but the most important thing is to know the right people.

While he is very open minded about relationships with opposite sex, he also keeps his conservative understanding of ethical values that he carried from his background.

He has very strong ties to his relatives. Probably he sends back some money to his family. His mother is worried of his relaxed lifestyle and has plans to tie him down to a local girl expecially now since his military service has already finished.

According his ethical values, there are two kinds of females. One type are the ethical ones and the other type of girls are the unethical ones. With the unethical ones you have fun and with the ethical ones you marry. Of course the girl he will marry must be a virgin, otherwise she is unethical. I guess by now you have understood that all Western girls fall down to the second category.

But these details will be issues in the far future. So there is nothing important to bother for now. Currently our boy is busy entertaining himself and responsibility to a settled down and traditional life will follow anyway so why not have some fun until then. In his future life, there is a high possibility for domestic violence. This will be seen as an unimportant issue from the perspective of his cultural environment.
The local girl will suffer but will get hardly any support from her family. Depending on the place where they were originated the level of pressure will wary from suggesting not to divorce to an extreme of threatening her life if she divorces. These days there are few examples of this but we occasionally see, especially in non-Turkish ethnical backgrounds, that a woman is getting killed by family members because she wanted to divorce. There is no such Turkish tradition but other ethnical minorities in Turkia still try to keep these traditions despite the efforts of our government.

Not too many examples to this but still there are places where women are seen as a possession of men's family. In some conservative little towns women are not supposed to divorce. If the man dies, his wife will be transferred to his biggest brother. So the brother will have two wives. The point is that there is no escape for the female from a violent family.

I'm not suggesting that this will happen in a boy’s family who is a waiter in a touristic town. I'm just telling the extreme and you can have an idea what is likely to happen.

Most native females, especially the educated ones will identify in minutes, a person who is likely to use violence. They will also identify a traditional lifestyle, conservative background, any extreme ethical values and any other details that are suspicious about a male. Things like accent are the key on this.

Foreigners will always come across to the wrong guys.

For our young boy, there will be each and every day small issues that are a problem. It is not possible to live without making the small things a problem in life. There will be always excuses. Always somebody else is responsible for the things that go wrong in his life. After 50 years, when turning back to memory and picking up the best moments of life, there is no surprise to see that there are very few moments to pick.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Son model cep telefonlarına karşı biraz fazlaca ilgili biri. Markalar ve modeller konusunda her türlü gereksiz bilgiye sahip.

Meslektaşlarının büyük çoğunluğu aynı zamanda yakın arkadaşları. Özellikle yabancı hatunlar konusunda deneyimlerini paylaşıyorlar ve fırsat oldukça her zaman belden aşağı konuşmalar oluyor.

Buraya sadece yaz sezonu için geldiler ve buraya yakın bir yerde kalıyorlar. Hayatı paylaşarak yaşıyorlar. Onun için kendine ait değerlerin, kendi tarzının ve özel hayatının olması neredeyse imkansız bir şey. Boş vakitlerini kendi başına keyifle geçirmek diye bir şey söz konusu değil.

Tek başına yaşayabilmesi mümkün değil. Bu durum özellikle yabancı bir kentte bulunuyorsa daha da geçerli. Kendi insanlarını bulmak zorunda. Onun için insanların nereli olduğu çok önemli. Eğer başka biri onunla aynı memleketten geliyorsa bu kendi başına o kişiyle yakın arkadaş olmak ve birkaç saat içinde bütün hayat hikayesini paylaşmak için yeterli bir neden.

Elbette, akrabalardan uzak yaşamak hiç kolay değil (çünkü bağımsız olmak bir yerlerde işittikleri ama ne olduğunu tam olarak bilmedikleri bir şey). İşte bu nedenle, yani akrabalardan ve ait olunan çevrenin desteğinden uzak olmanın yarattığı keder yüzünden, zaman zaman duruma uygun bunalımlı bir müzik eşliğinde içmeyi seviyorlar.

Hayattaki ciddi konulara karşı ilgisi yok ama fazla çaba harcamadan, kestirmeden zengin olmanın yolları konusunda her zaman planları var. Elbette bu yollar birazcık yasadışı olsa bile çok önemli bir mesele değil bu. Yetenek, emek, eğitim ve uzmanlaşmanın çok da önemli olmadığına ama asıl önemli olan şeyin doğru kişileri tanımak olduğuna içtenlikle inanıyor.

Karşı cinsle olan ilişkiler konusunda gayet açık görüşlü olsa da, aynı zamanda geçmişinden gelen ve ahlaki değerlerin tutucu bir yorumu olan bir anlayışı da var.

Akrabalarıyla çok güçlü bağları var. Büyük ihtimalle ailesine bir miktar para gönderiyor. Annesi onun kaygısız yaşam tarzından biraz endişeli ve özellikle şimdi, askerlik de geride kaldığı için, onu çevredeki bir kızla baş göz etmeyi planlıyor.

Onun etik anlayışına göre iki çeşit kız vardır. Bunlardan birincisi ahlaklı olan kızlar ve ikincisi de ahlaksız olanlar. Ahlaksız kızlar eğlenmek için, ahlaklı kızlar ise evlenmek içindir. Elbette evleneceği kız bakire olmak zorunda yoksa ahlaklı biri olmazdı. Sanırım şimdiye kadar anlatılanlardan batılı hatunların ikinci gruba düştüklerini tahmin etmişsinizdir.

Ama bütün bu konular çok ilerideki bir zamanın meseleleri. Yani şimdiden kafa ağrıtmaya gerek yok. Şu an için bizim genç adam kendini eğlendirmekle meşgul. Sorumluluk, zaten düzenli ve geleneksel bir hayata geçildiğinde başlayacak. O zamana kadar biraz gönül eğlendirmenin ne zararı olabilir ki?

Gelecekteki yaşamında aile içi şiddet oldukça yüksek bir ihtimal. Bu onun kültürel çevresi tarafından çok da önemli olmayan bir mesele olarak algılanacak. Yakın çevreden seçtikleri kız ızdırap çekecek ama ailesinden neredeyse hiç destek göremeyecek. Geldikleri yerin neresi olduğuna bağlı olarak kıza yapılan baskı, boşanmamasını tavsiye etmekten başlayıp, en aşırı durumda boşanmaması için hayatını tehdit etmeye kadar gidebilir.

Bugünlerde bunun fazla örneği yok ama yine de ara sıra, özellikle etnik olarak Türk kökenli olmayan çevrelerde bir kadının boşanmak istediği için aile bireyleri tarafından öldürüldüğü görülebilir. Türklere özgü böyle bir töre yok ama diğer etnik gruplar devletin tüm çabalarına rağmen bu töreyi yaşatmaya devam etmeye çalışıyorlar.

Artık çok fazla örneği olmasa da, kadının erkeğin malı gibi görüldüğü yerler hala var. Bazı tutucu, küçük yörelerde kadınların boşanmaması gerektiği düşÃ¼nülüyor. Eğer adam ölürse karısı adamın en büyük erkek kardeşine verilir. Yani erkek kardeşin iki karısı oluyor bu durumda. Burada önemli olan şu ki, kadın için şiddet uygulayan bir aileden kurtuluş şansı yok.

Bütün bunlar turistik bir yörede garson olarak çalışan bir gencin ailesinde olabilir demiyorum. Gerçekte ne olacağı konusunda bir fikir vermek için en aşırı durumlarda olabileceklerden bahsediyorum sadece.

Türk kızlarının büyük çoğunluğu, özellikle eğitimli olanlar, birkaç dakika içinde şiddete eğilimli birisini ayırt edebilirler. Aynı zamanda geleneksel yaşama biçimlerini, tutucu aile yapısını, abartılmış ahlaki değerleri ve bir erkekte şÃ¼pheli gördükleri diğer konuları da hemen fark edebilirler. Özellikle şive gibi konular burada ipucu veriyor.

Yabancıların karşısına ise her zaman yanlış kişiler çıkacaktır.

Bizim genç adam için istisnasız her gün sorun olan küçük konular olacak. Hayatta küçük şeyleri sorun etmeden yaşamak mümkün olmayacak. Bahaneler her zaman var olacak. Kendi hayatında yanlış giden şeylerden dolayı her zaman bir başkası suçlu olacak. Elli yıl sonra, hafızasını kurcalayıp, hayattaki en güzel anları yakalamaya çalışınca çok az sayıda böyle anın var olduğunu görmek şaşırtıcı olmayacak.

Thanks for your insight and very well put.

Elisa, thank you from saving me to say exactly the same!!

I think Erdinc's reply should be posted on the MSN site English Girlfriends of Turkish men! In their eye's anyone who acts in the way you suggest - ask for money, phones etc are rats. Perhaps a little deeper understanding of Turkish men from rural areas and their culture would not go amiss for some of these ladies. Can anyone blame them for living this way when so many English women go to Turkey on holiday and "lay it on a plate" so to speak.

Very well said LibraLady - there are many 'different' people in the world - not all men are rats and not all women innocent victims!!!

Well I do agree Boop, but surely here we were not talking about ALL MEN - only resort workers.

I agree, some girls can be blamed but, really, you only have to read some of the translations here to realise that these girls really believe these boys and are taken in by them? They may seem cheap or easy - but most of these girls believe these boys when they start talking of marriage. English guys (GENERALLY!!!) are not so romantic and demonstrative, so these beautiful Turkish men seem like a dream come true to these girls!

Also, is it not important to stress the point that these resort workers are not typical of all Turkish men? Or, do we ALWAYS have to be politically correct on this site at the expense of truth?

Then t he question comes to my mind: what is politically correct?

I thought it was one of the rules to this site not to insult anyone. I think that Erdinç, if i may say so, should've sent that post as a private message to krazegrl. That's what i would have done if i was him (but if i was i would also speak perfect Turkish this only to stress the fact i am not)

And, not to hurt any of the girls around here, but don't we think it's a bit naive to believe a handsome guy that wants to marry you, after you've only spent a holiday (without the daily trouble) and when you're only of the age between 15-20?

Most people spend half a lifetime to find the loves of their lives, so it's a bit naive to expect you find your true love when you go on holiday at a young age.
For myself, I'm 18 and my love is 20, so maybe I have no right to speak But he's no holiday resort worker anyhow.

Nevertheless, i hope everyone finds a handsome Turk and gets incredibly happy ofcourse

And so what if an older 30, 40 or 50 year old woman is taken by a young Turkish resort worker? I would think that at that age, she is self sufficient financially, able to earn her own money and decide if she should spend it on a man that flattered her for a short time? Is it not as much as she is using him then like he uses her?

Food for thought...

I believe it is wrong to generalise about anybody - on the grounds of anything.
Whether it be age, sex, colour, race, status etc..
My point is that we are all individuals and should be judged on our own merits.
Experience hopefully comes with age and we all learn eventually not to trust everybody - but in order to gain experience we have to make our own mistakes. You can guide but you cannot live someones life for them.

In my opinion - the initial question was very general and deserved the generalised answer that it was given. And however awful or judgemental it may sound to say that if your a waiter in a resort your probably uneducated etc, the fact is that, the majority of men who work in resorts do it because theres nothing else for them to do - although, there are some who are students, or those working in tourism as a second job to earn extra money, otherwise I cant see any reason why anyone would wish to endure 18 hour shifts, slapping a fake smile on their face as they watch tourists waste money, all for a pitance of a wage - nobody in their right mind would do such a job enless there was no other option. I thought what Erdinç wrote was reasonably accurate, and iam sure when asking 'what its like working as a waiter in tourism', she wasnt expecting anyone to say that it was all fun and games etc. I think the bottom line is - not everyones the same, HOWEVER, the translation section of this website is living proof that there are men out there working in tourism who use tourists to their own advantage,(and you should see the other sites! i.e the english girlfriends of turkish men group!) and if your boyfriend starts asking you for money, a new mobile phone, trainers or whatever, then be careful. Whats the deal with mobile phones anyway? I find it really pathetic and to some extend greedy, although its completely wrong, atleast theres some logic in asking for money if the person is in a bad situation - but when the person has a perfectly good phone in working order, why ask for a new one? - its really beyond logic.

Thank you for your support... I initiated the question/thread in an attempt to understand the socio/economics of Turkish people...just as I would about a teachers life...although I have already been told about that...I also have seen much dialogue about the salary a teacher makes, spends, the cost of electricity, internet and telephone, but was curios about the resort wages, distance from home, relationships (in general) with other family members and where they live etc etc etc. Anyone know anything else to answer these questions? Your input is interesting...if it is supported with first hand knowledge

in response to the previous post, i would just like to say, that yes of course there are exceptions
to this sterotype. I met my now husband in a tourist resort, he was working for his uncle for the summer and was still at school.
we have now been together for 5 years, married for nearly two, and in that time he has proved to be resonsible, genuine and respectful.
he is a good husband to me and a great dad to our daughter.
Yes the sterotype certainly does exist but there also certainly are exceptions, if if they are rare!

Upon request I have added its Turkish translation to my post on page one.

Thank you for an encouraging reply Kimberley. It's great that you have such a wonderful story of success.
My boyfriend has a colourful past, he admits that, but I don't want to be classed as unethical or easy simply because I am Western, when in fact I am ethical status. My boyfriend told me that I remind him of Turkish girls because of this, but reading such bad things is very discourageing, it makes me worry that I'm just fun on the side. Yes, I've learnt that his friends are very important to him as is work, we speak a little on MSN each night, but now I won't hear from him for 20 days because he has work to do apparently. I could mistake this for him not caring, but I know that from his lazy-love personality love is in his heart but takes a back seat.I've heard the signs that these men aren't in love- now what are the signs that they do actually care?
I also want to make it clear that it is very unfortunate that some decent Western women are classed as easy fun and naive, just as it is unfortunate that so many Turkish men are given such a terrible reputation by generalisation.

In response to the entries in this forum, I must first say, aferin! It is my understanding that the purpose of this site is to learn about Turkish people, language, and culture. I think the posts here have been heartfelt, educational, and true to the goals of this site.

The discussion has expanded to include observations which demonstrate how much we all have in common. We are all self-serving at times, no matter what cultural roots spawned us. Men are men, and women are women, no matter where they come from. The differences, and similarities are fascinating, and will always make for an interesting discussion. It is important not to lose sight of the benefits of this open forum. Being politically correct, or overly polite can defeat the purpose of learning about each other. So I say, thank you erdinc for your candid remarks, and thank you mltm for starting the discussion.

Personally, I have learned from reading the posts that we can speak our minds here without fear of reprisal, as long as our intent is to educate, and not to denigrate.

Wow! What an eloquent, articulate and well balanced post! I am sure you will be a great asset to this site Ladywriter. Some of the posts were starting to sound like idealistic schmultzy interviews in a Miss World contest

Adios...

Thank you for the nice compliment, Aenigma. I can only imagine the sound of all the dictionary pages turning in search of the translation for the word, "schmaltzy". Heheh...a little chicken fat is always tasty.

My daughter is 16 and 100% innocent. she met her boyfriend whilst on holiday in Turkey last July. We returned to Turkey in October to see him again.

He is a resort worker, with impecable manners. He never once asked her for anything, (money, phones nothing).

I was worried because she was so young and he was a gorgeous 19 year old. But he treated her with respect at all times never expecting anything from her, and I mean anything on either visit. They speak to each other all the time on msn and phone each other regularly.

Her Dad and I like him very much. He will go in the army soon, and I know she will miss him very much then. But she is very young yet and only time will tell. But I have to say he was very different from most of the boys we met whilst on holiday.

That is so lovely to hear, it's a similar situation to my cousin, although they don't speak on the phone and he sometimes is not able to contact. Of course there are exceptions, and I wish your daughter the very best of luck and happiness. It can be very difficult to hold on to a relationship when everyone tells you that you will only get hurt by staying with that person. That is why it's a shame that there are so many stereotypes in the world today.
And yes, I add also that from my knowledge (which is little, I admit), these men do work very hard.

Ladies of this class !

Please beware that any boyfriend (whether Turkish or not) who starts asking you for favors involving your expenditure of money is a low life form, who can not represent the qualities of a decent man!. They must necessarily be avoided, at once.

Your spending money on your boyfriend, unless your relation is so advanced and close that you reasonably consider his wallet and your purse as a single entity, should be limited to small gifts only...and even then such gifts should be reciprocal and should never involve large sums of money.

Smart girls always believe my word !

....and I certainly agree with your wise words

only one smart girl here?

If I'd ever get married, it would have to be with someone like AlphaF. I'm a sucker for wise men

Thanks Elisa,
But AlphaF is way to wise and smart to marry again ))))))))

That was the moment of my life, honest...

I was complimented by two young pretty ladies, within the same 5 five minutes....Thank you both...

Out of the way little girls! AlphaF could only possible be interested in a woman of mature years. someone with experience, a continued zest for life, independence, of course beauty. Someone like me in fact!

I hope Krazegrl has read your answer Erdinc - it made fascinating reading. Thanks.

You heartbreaker Alpha - you said I was smart - but Sophie and Elisa were pretty .....I am going to bed now (sniff, sniff )

........ feeling sniff.... slightly...sniff better... sniff - thanx Ramayan you have made me feel better - oh the power of words.. (and I had a nice pm from Alpha )

Actually, I think all this 'in house' fighting to get attention and curry favour with Alpha is childish, stupid and demeaning (she said in a cunning move to detract, deride and divert the attention of the competition)

Furthermore (she said in that superior tone she sometimes uses when playing the Evil Moderator)

I shall have to consider using my Evil Moderator powers of deletion on any further suggestions that AlphaF could possibly be interested in anyone other than myself. (she said with an evil chuckle)

Finally, any bragging about getting Private Messages from AlphaF which are clearly untrue will be publicly humiliated and shown for the spurious liars they are. Moreover, anyone found actually receiving PM's from AlphaF will be hunted down, strung up by their belly bars and watch their thongs, skinny jeans and mini skirts burn on a bonfire. (she said with much maniacal chortling!)

So girls! (much emphasis on the word 'girls') stick with the boys and leave the men to the women!

I am not easily intimidated (she said - hiding under a blanket ) and these libelous allegations ( - not sure about spelling...)would not be upheld in a court of law. Notwithstanding the fact that certain points of your tirade do hold water - viz a vie ..thong, etc... - I do not - repeat - do not - have a belly bar...
But hey, just realised your point about being a Mod. ..hmmm well....errrr.....yeah .....mmmmm..... okay then I give in (Although I think we should talk about this with the man himself )

ALPHAF fan club.
Did I mention that in addition to my moderating duties I am also the OFFICIAL Secretary, Manager, Publicist, Body Guard, Chauffeur, Road Manager, blah blah of the OFFICIAL AlphaF Fan Club.In future ALL correspondence addressing the Master will be vetted and edited by me. OK?

AlphaF's 'Talking under a Plane tree 2006' world tour starts soon. Watch this space

Quote Elisa : AlphaF, you don't want a madwoman do you??


Opps - that rules me out then I guess

Were you also painting green smiley's on your walls then??

Were you also painting green smiley's on your walls then??

*** Didn't mean to post this twice

Hehehe First sign of madness Elisa - posting twice

OK, you got me

Hopefully Lyndie (evil moderator) will delete our posts re. madness, before anyone else notices

a brother or two?! aslan you greedy thing, how many do you need! maybe you could send one my way...

"Well!"said Lyndie quietly to herself, with a self satisfied smirk.

"I am happy to see that the 'girls' have gone very quiet. No doubt locking away their thongs, skinny jeans and mini skirts and checking their belly bars!" a slow, but sadistic smile replacing the satisfied smirk.

"The 'women'" she thought "seem to have engaged themselves nicely in bickering amongst themselves about madness and the painting of green smileys and the possibility of Alpha having a brother or two."

She slunk silently back into the shadowland of reading the posts without signing in, thus maintaining her stealth like secrecy and rightfully earning the title 'Evil Moderator'.
pause to allow sinister incidental music to fade.....

lyndie , you crack me up, i need a laugh at the moment since i have become a non smoker

CHECK OUT MY PERSONAL PICTURES LADIES!
There is nothing else left to say on this subject.

Lyndie chuckled. It was a sound so evil that the blood of all who heard it turned to ice in their veins. Her new personal picture would show them all. The competition is over ladies. Give up now. Prostrate yourself before the 1st Lady.

Fantastic Lyndie - I take my hat off to you (if I was wearing one )
I prostrate myself before you - Obviously you and Mr suprcool are made for each other - I concede - if things develop please may I be bridesmad??(I mean 'maid')

OK Lyndie, must admit, you two are mad for eachother. I wish you all the luck.
I'm looking forward to the invitation for the wedding


One thing I have to wonder though: why does AlphaF keep so low profile in all this....

You can be sure - he's noticed Elisa, nothing gets passed Mr. Super Cool

...and what about the eventual brothers?

...and it is not about being greedy, by the way...I have been told to be to much of a woman for one man to handle...

...perhaps AlphaF is to much of a man for one woman to handle?

...in that case I volonteer, sis! ...don´t be cimri...share him with me... ...the lioness is starving...

...I quote Gloria Gaynor - I will survive...

...evilest of the evil...I chew my fingers to the bones...what about the brothers???

...AlphaF, help me out! ...don´t you have a brother or two that a poor starving lioness could have, now that the evil moderator so egoisticly put her hands on you...

I haven't given up yet by the way. Just working behind the scene

"Never insult an alligator until you've crossed the river."

Does anyone actually remember the title of this thread? And to what (whom) it has been reduced to?

AlphaF, what does the world look like from up there?

A very interesting and informative piece of writing - with a valuable and sobering message to us all. I have always felt sad for anyone having to pander to the tourist - some of whom are vile, such a difficult existence for these hardworking souls - thanks for highlighting the harsh realities of their lives Lyndie

Thanks Boop.
I feel very strongly about this. These boys have terrible lives and you cant blame them for taking whatever small pleasure in life they can find.

Well said Lyndie

Thank you for sharing with us your feelings. I think is sad, but true, and the truth hurts. Thank you once more.

I just wanted to say thanks for your message Lyndie, very well said x

It is my mission in life to educate everyone about this industry. Tourists are often ignorant to the plight of the workers that make their holidays so special, simply because they see only happy smiling faces serving them.

It is interesting that most of the negative comments made about these boys came from other Turks. I am guessing that life in Ivory Towers is so high for them, that they miss the realities of life for others less fortunate.

I know this topic is about life of Turkish man, but I want to talk about life of woman they come to Turkey for having "holiday". I said "holiday" because they don't only come for holiday. It is said that they come for sunshine, drinking and eating cheaper and making love!. Yes for making love because it is very dificult for some woman to have a sex partner in their countries. Because they behave like real ladies in their countries but a bit wild with resort boys in Turkey. They like to be spoiled by these resort boys.They feel as if they are very important person here because resort boys think these women are real ladies.
And women also need to hear love words they can't hear so much in their life.

Oooooo brace yourself for some fireworks soon Subconscious Well, I take great exception to your comments. I travelled to Turkey to see Turkey and to enjoy the sunshine, thank you !!!! I will say no more because I am supposed to be working here (hehe)....I will leave it to my sisters

Well said Deli_kizin!!!! I didn't have enough time to write such a good answer - my boss keeps appearing hehehe

[Quoting subconscious:

Yes for making love because it is very dificult for some woman to have a sex partner in their countries.
]

Does this not apply to some Turkish men! who do not work in the tourist resorts?Perphaps you should get a job at a turkish resort subconscious,then you would not have to use MSN for your " hot chats"

Please Subconscious don't tar all men and all women with the same brush.

I also want to say that not only resort boys are not educated well but also girls enjoy spend time with these boys are not educated well.

Oh my word ... i think that that post could be true of both english and turkish young men (apart from the death before divorce thing)loved your post very very true speaking as a 28 year old ex barman believe me i know

Let's quit this part of discussion. It's impossible to say that only women or only men are guilty and are they guilty anyway?

1. Woman on holiday and holiday-resort-man have a wild night. They never see eachother anymore, but think back with a smile on that night. Now is anyone guilty?

2. Holiday-resort-man whispers romantic love words to woman on holiday, she is flattered and they make love the next night. Then she sees that man flirting with other girls the next day. Now, is it only him being guilty? No, she should not have expected 'full commitment' from him in the first place.

If you are a holiday-resort-man and you don't want to break women's hearts, then don't speak to them in a way only true lovers do. And for the women, if you give signs for 'easy access' then u mustn't complain about being used either.

Everyone is right about this latest turn to the discussion. Everyone has their reasons for what they do on holiday and everyone is free to do what they want to do on holiday, without fear of criticism. BUT the thread was about the lives of Turkish men working in holiday resorts; what their lives are really like, why they do the things that they do and the reason people (Turkish, English and everybody else) should undersatnd their lives. Maybe there should be a different thread about the so called 'morals' of everyone concerned and a lively and interesting debate it would be. But if you have a comment. (and now the voice of the Evil Moderator) - be sure that your comments are non judgmental, impersonal and objective, because I can see the potential for a lot of insulting and offensive words here if people are not careful what they say.

So who will start the new thread?

Everything said above is true, more or less. But I really don't understand what education has to do with it. Having graduated from a university doesn't mean that you are also educated in life. And vise versa.
Somebody's ethics have nothing to do with his studies. And why do we have to complain? If we go there looking for a sexual adventure, that's what we ll get. If not, then nobody is going to touch us. And this is the same in every country in the world.
I agree with Lyndie. Some of these men are really living and working under terrible conditions. And they are not to be blamed. As for education, what really matters for me, is the 'master degree' you get in life. Not in a university.

Bravo Sophie, well said. Problem var in Turkey degrees from the University of life don't really get you anywhere

It is about everything that has been discussed here.
Every person is different. Everybody sees things in a different way. Everybody thinks in a different way. Everybody has a different level of intellect and education.
Everybody's family life is different. Therefore everyone takes something different away from every experience.

Nobody is right or wrong - everyone is a guilty or innocent in any sort of relationship - wether sexual or not.

We all have choices in life - it is up to us all to behave in a responsible way to other human beings in every situation. We should learn to treat others as we wish to be treated. You generally get back what you give in life.
Take care of yourself and care for others, and hopefully the rewards are there.

Has it ever occured to you that it could be us, the 'educated' ones who are driving those people to the wrong direction? With a snobish attitude towards them?
They didn't graduate from a universtity. So what? This could be the result of various reasons. Their families' finacial situation, their parents' strict and out of date opinion about studies, or just their need to earn their own living and their desire for independence.
How can you blame them? And for what? For not studying maths or literature? When someone cant make ends meet, do you think that he has the luxury to have cultural worries? And, on the other hand, who said that those people are not cultural? Or who said that they are not worth to be dealt with.
I have the luck to know such people, working not in the turkish, but in the greek tourism industry. They are so wise that i can never be, no matter how many books i read. Their constant fight to survive in a snob society, has made them focus on how to get better and prove that they are equals with the rest of us. Some of them did, some not. But do we all succeed in this life?
Recently, me and you mltm, exchanged a few pms, about somebody, remember? Take his example. Well educated, but still a freak and a stain for this society. Doesn't he prove alone that this whole theory about education and character does not have a logical basis?

Now then güezlim! (i might have just made this word up, forgive me if it is not a word at all! ) You are right about everything. Especially the 'snob' society. Nowhere have I seen this better than in turkey.

My friend Yakup came to hospital with me once. He was looking after me there and translating for me. when he saw all these pretty nurses (who frankly looked like soap opera stars) he was saying 'oy oy oy!' under his breath. These girls looked at him like he was a donkey dropping on their cute little designer shoes!

I will never forget the look on their faces as they shamelessly looked him up and down and made a decision about him based on his clothes, hair and accent. I wanted to slap their silly over made up faces.

I will never forget the look of pain and embarrassment on his face when he saw the way they treated him. Slap them? I wanted to beat their (tiny) brains out!

This was a man who had cradled me in his lap for 2 hours over a mountain in a cab, absorbing all the bumps and shocks of the car so that I would not be in more pain, who had been silently praying over me the whole time. Who had wiped my tears, made jokes, bought me water, stroked my head and just about done more for me than any one had ever done in my life. This was a man so kind, that even though I was suffering from a potentially embarrassing gynaecological problem, still translated everything without a blush. I cant tell you how much I hated those nurses for looking down their pretty noses at him and this happens all the time. This is one thing I do NOT like about Turkey. The class system is alive and well. I hope so much that his 12 months in england with me, will teach him to hold his head up in the face of this bigotry. Give him confidence in who he is as a person, not as a class of person.Above all, I hope his education and experience here will give him an opportunity to find a 'proper' job, with a decent employer.

Offff ya.....

I think the best snob society is in English with their (some!) snob people. ı am not angry with you Lyndie but ıt is my opinion. Not only your (some!)people are snob but also your goverment. Look at! what your goverment do in Iraq?
Have happiness with your friend in England. But you can't blame and judge Turkish for some nurses don't like your friend.

What a good way to make your point - Subconscious. You don’t like something that someone English says, so you decide to talk about Iraq. Do you think that the majority of English agree with our governments decision? Really, don’t get me started on what I think of the USA and British in Iraq… but at least we are happy to criticise our country and government, which is pretty healthy I think. Are you really so unable to argue your point that you resort to mud-slinging about war? I am sure I could sling some mud back to you if I were as insensitive and inarticulate as you.

Subconscious - my point, if you can understand, was...if you were talking about snobbery, what was the relevance in discussing Iraq? You ran out of arguments, so decided to use a different subject to anger the English eh? Your other comment about my parents does not make sense, sorry, and i wont give you the satisfaction of replying to such a childish, personal attack.

Thank you very much uYkuSuz. I am sure this is the man to whom Kadir refers! :_D

Hmmm, class in Türkiye?? Unfortunately it happens, but we can't help it. It's not the fault of the educated and somehow economically "high class" people. It's just a result, but I don't think as a whole the Turks look upon another one. Turks are very emotional people and always feel very sorry and try to help when they see someone in a bad condition.
However, you can observe the kind of snobbery that you see in the nurses in women towards some men, but according to me it's because women encounter a lot of harassment from especially uneducated and "low classed" men. And I can imagine how many men harass especially those nurses, in Türkiye nurses are seen a bit like easy women. Turkish girls sometimes really have reason to be so snobbish towards men even tough sometimes it looks very rude.

I think the chance for snobbery in Türkiye is actually higher. The differences in income are much bigger in Türkiye than the ones in the UK. The difference between wealth and poorness, that is. Therefore snobbery from higher up on the lower classes is more likely, because there is more difference. Who whould be bothered to look down up on someone who may not wear designer shoes, but practically lives next door and pays the same rent?

And subconscious, yours wás a personal attack and also a rude reaction to Lyndie, which was totally unappropriate.

I also agree with Meltem about the educational part. We mustn't forget.. you cannot help it if you can't afford education or if you just don't have the capacity to study more. Nobody can be blamed for that. But there's one thing we easily forget.. education puts you in a certain environment which really affects your behavior. So even if you are interested in culture and have good ideas about life, the chance that you will be in the 'group' of 'uneducated ones' and have a, partly, similar lifestyle, is likely. This ofcourse doesn't count for everybody, don't get me wrong. I don't want to be seen as someone who thinks very black white, because i don't. But in a discussion like this (about the turkish man, not the whole snobbery-iraq-ware-i-have-no-more-arguements-so-i-made-this-up-discussion), it is impossible not to speak a little bit in general. Because yes. I am high educated, following the highest education possible, getting quite good grades, very likely to also earn my master degree within time. But i don't know life half as much as those men in Türkiye.