I know it is long and i tried hard to take only important parts..

We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

This is a column condemning cowardice including my own. It begins with the story of a novel you cannot read. The Jewel of Medina was written by a journalist called Sherry Jones. It recounts the life of Aisha, a girl who was married off at the age of six to a 50-year-old man called Mohamed ibn Abdallah. On her wedding day, Aisha was playing on a see-saw outside her home. Inside, she was being betrothed. The first she knew of it was when she was banned from playing out in the street with the other children. When she was nine, she was taken to live with her husband, now 53. He had sex with her. When she was 14, she was accused of adultery with a man closer to her own age. Not long after, Mohamed decreed that his wives must cover their faces and bodies, even though no other women in Arabia did.

.....
In Europe, we are finally abolishing the lingering blasphemy laws that hinder criticism of Christianity. But they are being succeeded by a new blasphemy law preventing criticism of Islam enforced not by the state, but by jihadis. I seriously considered not writing this column, but the right to criticise religion is as precious and hard-won as the right to criticise government. We have to use it or lose it.

Some people will instantly ask: why bother criticising religion if it causes so much hassle? The answer is: look back at our history. How did Christianity lose its ability to terrorise people with phantasms of sin and Hell? How did it stop spreading shame about natural urges pre-marital sex, masturbation or homosexuality? Because critics pored over the religion´s stories and found gaping holes of logic or morality in them.

....
We need to acknowledge the double-standard and that it will cost Muslims in the end. Insulating a religion from criticism surrounding it with an electric fence called "respect" keeps it stunted at its most infantile and fundamentalist stage. .....
What would Christianity be like today if George Eliot, Mark Twain and Bertrand Russell had all been pulped? Take the most revolting rural Alabama church, and metastasise it.

Since Jones has brought it up, let us look at Mohamed´s marriage to Aisha as a model for how we can conduct this conversation. It is true those were different times, and it may have been normal for grown men to have sex with prepubescent girls. The sources are not clear on this point. But whatever culture you live in, having sex when your body is not physically developed can be an excruciatingly painful experience. Among Vikings, it was more normal than today to have your arm chopped off, but that didn´t mean it wasn´t agony. If anything, Jones´s book whitewashes this, suggesting that Mohamed´s "gentleness" meant Aisha enjoyed it.

The story of Aisha also prompts another fundamentalist-busting discussion. You cannot say that Mohamed´s decision to marry a young girl has to be judged by the standards of his time, and then demand that we follow his moral standards to the letter. Either we should follow his example literally, or we should critically evaluate it and choose for ourselves. Discussing this contradiction inevitably injects doubt the mortal enemy of fanaticism (on The Independent´s Open House blog later today, I´ll be discussing how Aisha has become the central issue in a debate in Yemen about children and forced marriage).

So why do many people who cheer The Life Of Brian and Jerry Springer: The Opera turn into clucking Mary Whitehouses when it comes to Islam? If a book about Christ was being dumped because fanatics in Mississippi might object, we would be enraged.
...
The other reason is more honourable, if flawed. There is very real and rising prejudice against Muslims across the West. The BBC recently sent out identically-qualified CVs to hundreds of employers. Those with Muslim names were 50 per cent less likely to get interviews.
......
But I live in the Muslim majority East End of London, and this isn´t Weimar Germany. Muslims are secure enough to deal with some tough questions. It is condescending to treat Muslims like excitable children who cannot cope with the probing, mocking treatment we hand out to Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism. It is perfectly consistent to protect Muslims from bigotry while challenging the bigotries and absurdities within their holy texts.
..
When we pulp books out of fear of fundamentalism, we are decapitating the most precious freedom we have.

original article from the independent

I don´t want to be controversial or add to any controversy but.....

I am Christian and defend anybody´s right to criticise my religion - including my own right. I personally believe that if you are confident in your religion then debate about it can surely be healthy and not harmful. There is nothing in this world that is so perfect that there is nothing that can be questioned. Remember that all religions practised in this world are governed by man made rules and interpretations! (They may have been more perfect if the interpretations had been made by women!!!)

I think it is a good article and I also agree with tina, it is a person´s right to ask, probe, debate.

I find it curious that so many Christians are willing to point out splinters but miss the logs in their own eyes. Willing to cast the first stone, despite claiming they *do* have some blame.

But then, post-Christian Liberal Democratic Globalized Capitalism has removed all racism, sexism, poverty, unemployment, warfare, spiritual void, etc. from the Western World. We´ve got no problems here, so we might as well criticize and critique other backward-ass cultures, right?

Strangely enough the woman who wrote the article is Muslim. 

She has raised some very good points in a non-confrontational way.  Her writing is usually very well balanced and I for one am a fan of her articles. 

Strangely enough, the *MAN* (Johann Hari) who wrote the article is a self-described "anti-theist" (see http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=540 ).

The points raised are typical of Western critiques of Islam. We´ve heard them all before, and we will continue to hear them.

I support the right to publish clap-trap books and articles such as these, just as I support the right of Nazis and morons to publish their malignant and stupid hate-filled BS.

But that doesn´t mean I have to respect it.

 Ooops!  How to be deceived by a photo!  I have the Independent regularly and I always thought that he was a woman, purely by the photo and way "he" wrote, in a very feminine fashion.

haha

I was just about to say that actually..And he is a jew..

But a fantastic follow up in the blog from the same guy:

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/openhouse/2008/08/the-rebellion-o.html#more

Late last year, a tiny little ten year old girl turned up alone at the court in Sana, Yemen, and declared: "I have come to get a divorce." This hadn´t happened before. According to the Yemen Times, in some parts of the country the average marriage age is ten, and some 50 percent of marriages are to underage girls. But Nujood Ali was unique in escaping to a court door, pleading for help.

Nujood explained how her father had married her off to a thirtysomething motorcycle courier. On their wedding night, he ordered her to share a bed with him. She ran out of the room, so he dragged her back and raped her.

At first she was ashamed. "But I passed through that," she said recently. "All I want now is to finish my education. I want to be a lawyer… I want to defend oppressed people. I want to be an example for all the other girls." After saying this, she ran off to play hide-and-seek.

...

The conservative Islamic mullahs have reacted by saying there is nothing wrong with child-marriage – because Mohammed did it. It is true Mohammed did this. If you are trapped in the fundamentalist mindset of Mohammed-is-our-moral-exemplar, you have no way to answer back. The debate is resolved; Nujood´s "husband" was in the right.

..

But the fundamentalist literalist reading of Islam chokes their efforts. It will always tell the girls that child-marriage is acceptable, because Mohammed did it. If we can´t criticize and reinterpret Mohammed without being threatened, then we may be unable – in the end – to cut away the intellectual justification for abusing these girls.

Splinters? What a eufemism!

Besides I have heard many, many Christian people criticize their own religions, think of May-8 group in the Catholic church. And even if they didn´t, is that a reason to close your eyes for mistakes elsewhere?

See, the problem is that for ALL Muslims, Muhammad (sawas) is a moral exemplar, not just the ´fundamentalists´. By stating that Muhammad-as-moral-exemplar is a ´fundamentalist mindset´, you imply that anyone who believes this - all Muslims - is a fundamentalist.

Moreover, it is a testament to Hari´s complete ignorance as to Islamic law, which contrary to Western (and, incidentally, fundamentalist) opinion, is not some monolithic Napoleonic ´Code´ for all time, but more akin to Western English or American common law, that is, an ongoing legal debate utilizing legal tools and systems for determining not only the rights and responsibilities between human individuals, but between God and humans.

And one of the tools in the legal cabinet is defference to local custom and law. For example, Muhammad wore a beard. He spoke highly of wearing a beard. But this does not mean that it is a sin, or contrary to Shari´a, to shave, because wearing a beard was local custom in Arabia at that time.

But to actually learn something about Islam and Islamic culture would mean studying it or - Heaven forfend! - speaking to an actual Muslim and run the risk of their being a terrorist who will kill you!

And besides, here in the United States our economy is sound, our national infrastructure top notch, no one lacks for health care, racism has been solved and sexism eliminated, our children receive the world´s best education, the middle class is thriving, more and more people own their own homes and are able to pay off their debts, we´re in the midst of the longest patch of peace-time in our military´s history (and our soldiers are treated to only the best we have to offer), our jails are empty and jobs are plentiful, there´s an electric car in every driveway and a chicken in every pot...

... so it only makes sense to criticize other cultures, since we´re doing so well.

Actually, the splinter/log thing is from your Bible. Jesus said it. Have a read in your gospels, they´re good literature; our Qur´an and our Prophet speak highly of them.

I think Jesus´s point was that it is easier to criticize another than to examine one´s own faults. Easier to talk about child-brides in Yemen than to look at teenage pregnancy, abortions, the rot in our foster-care system, etc here at home, let alone do something about it.

 It´s not MY Bible, I´m an agnost. I just reacted to the way you make things black and white as if there is no grey, no in-betweens 

 Here is an answer from Diyanet(the religion works)´s old president to that age issue which really irritates me...

14 Ağustos 2006 tarihinde Hz. Aişe’nin evlenme yaşını sormuştum. Siz de 18-19 yaşlarında olduğunu yazmıştınız. Bu konuda kaynak gösterir misiniz? Özdemir BAŞARGAN

Hz. Aişe, Peygamberimizle evlenmeden önce Cübeyr b. Mutam ile nişanlanmıştır. Cübeyr’in babası, ailesi içerisine İslamiyet’in girmesini istemediğinden bu nişanı bozmuştu. Bundan sonra Hz. Peygamber’le nişanları yapılmıştır. Bu hadise Hicret’ten 3 yıl önce idi. Hemen bütün siyer kitaplarında Hz. Aişe’nin 6-7 yaşında iken Mekke’de nişanlandığı ve nikáhının kıyıldığı, 9-10 yaşında da Medine’de zifafa girdiği yazılı ise de Hz. Aişe’nin evlendiğinde yaşının çok daha büyük olduğunu ablası Esma’nın biyografisinden öğrenmiş bulunuyoruz. Esma, Hicret’in 73. yılında 100 yaşında vefat etti. Hicret’in vukuunda 27 yaşında idi. Esma, Hz. Aişe’den 10 yaş büyük olduğuna göre, demek ki Hicret zamanında Aişe 17 yaşında idi. Zifafın Hicret’ten 8 ay sonra olduğu dikkate alındığında yaşının 18 olduğu ortaya çıkmaktadır. Bu konu çeşitli Arapça kaynaklarda mevcuttur. Türkçe olarak da Süleyman Nedvi ve Mevlana Şibli’nin kaleme aldıkları "Sadr-ı İslam ve Asr-ı Saadet" isimli eserde, ayrıca Diyanet yayınları arasında bulunan "Hatem-ül Enbiya Hz. Muhammed" adlı kitabın Aişe bölümünde bu bilgiye yer verilmektedir. Hz. Aişe’nin Peygamberimizden önce Cübeyr’le nişanlanmış olması, onun yetişkin, evlenme çağına gelmiş bir kız olduğunu göstermektedir.


Diyanet İşleri Eski Başkanı

Mehmet Nuri YILMAZ

If Christians fail so much to see logs in their eyes, how come films like Dogma or The Life of Brian are accessible from any DVD rental as well as played on TV? How come Jesus Christ Superstar has not caused the director to get killed? How come there are many films portraying homosexuality among priests as well as showing child abuse by them? Papers have no problem printing amusing cartoons with god/Jesus and other Christian/Jewish/Buddhist mythology and nobody dies because of it. And yet it´s Christians who never talk about their problems. yeah, right.

BTW, I am not Christian myself so I´m not defending my religion.

You have no idea of what bad conditions are..this makes me sick.  So what some of your 401k has been affected, no one in the U.S. can be denied healthcare, racism and sexism is better in this country than most, our education system is fine and the people who couldn´t afford high mortgages to begin with are loosing them.  What is your point in all this, really?

 Please tell us the point you are trying to make here...Sure it´s easier to criticize no doubt, but that doesn´t mean we shouldn´t reflect on other behaviors,cultures or religions.  If you would like to discuss the problems with teenage pregnancy, I suggest start a topic on it.

I have no idea what bad conditions are? I have no 401(k). I make $30,000 a year helping the mentally ill get off YOUR streets and into decent housing and, if they´re lucky, a job and a decent life.

Nobody can be denied healthcare? Hah! Yes, they can. They are denied healthcare all the time. Maybe you don´t see it, but that doesn´t means it does not exist.

Or perhaps you mean they can have an emergency procedure and then spend the rest of their lives paying back the $100,000+ that saved their lives at 25%+ interest rates, having their credit score decimated so that they can never own their own home or buy a car or take out loans for higher education which limits their jobs to ones within walking distance or on public transportation inevitably limiting their career options to the local chain whatever where they work a non-union job that provides minimal financial remuneration necessitating taking a second job which prevents them from parenting their children appropriately which potentially leads their children to teenage pregnancy, drugs, gangs, or just not-doing-well in the poor inner-city or rural school they attend where the teachers are so tied by the bureaucracy they cannot teach and references to evolution or to mountains have been expunged by politically-motivated lobbying groups so that these children will never be able to compete for jobs in a global marketplace. All because one person without health care had the misfortune to, say, cross the street in front of a drunk driver, or catch a severe infection.

This is the reality for millions of lives in the United States today, but instead of addressing the gross injustices in this country, the privileged few yammer away about child brides in Yemen - a criticism which, safely enough, insulates them from having to actually DO something or (worse still) SACRIFICE something to right an injustice.

My point is that, as a Muslim, I am sick of hearing Westerners criticize Islam knowing next to nothing about it, misrepresenting Islam as a monolithic hyper-conservative culture with no diversity of opinion and ultimately backwards and barbaric.

These anti-Islamic polemics have existed since Islam came about, and they as hurtful and ignorant as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf, or Holocaust Revisionism. Westerners criticize child-marriage but apparently take no issue with Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children. Westerners criticize so-called ´Islamo-fascism´ and yet support Sa´udi Arabia, Hosni Mubarak´s Egypt, or any totalitarian regime in the Middle East that supports US national interests. Some will defend a woman´s right to flush an unborn child from her womb but criticize her decision to wear a veil, a decision that is between a woman and her God, as internalized sexism. Westerners shake their heads when Muslims express outrage at cartoons depicting our Prophet as a terrorist, but callously talk of turning Iran into glass with nuclear weapons, sending Iraq "back to the Stone Age", as if this is somehow less disgusting and hateful speech.

My point is that it is the very height and definition of hypocrisy to critique another´s way of life both when you know nothing about it as well as when there are such glaring errors in your own way of life.

Jesus´s point - one with which I happen to agree - is that it is the job of us Muslims to critique our culture and way of life, which is something which we have done and currently do and shall continue to do, and the job of others to critique their own. To do otherwise invites only misery.

But hey, don´t take my word for it - spend a day pointing out the faults in your spouse, your co-workers, your boss, your friends, and then say "Hey, you don´t have a right to be upset! It is everyone´s right to criticize anything or anybody they wish".

I suspect their answers shall be less diplomatic than mine here.

I find it very curious that some Muslims protest about criticism of Islam overall (and compare it to nazi propaganda??? ) instead of responding to the points of criticism. That is one telling point.

By the way, you don´t have to "know Islam" to criticize the actions of Muslims that are clearly immoral. Get used to it... And there is so much hypocricy coming from some Muslims, who criticize everything, but rage when they are criticized themselves.

Well said. I hear many Christians say that the Pope, the bishops, the priests should not stick their nose in issues they can´t talk about, I hear many people say that it´s the Roman Catholic clergy that causes more Aids by forbidding people to use condoms, I hear only people who despise the abuse of kids by priests, I have seen some of the films you mentioned, I have read many books that criticize Christian beliefs, and despite of all this criticism there are no attacks (except for a few fanatic anti-abortion idiots in the US), no war. I seldom hear a Muslim say that maybe some things are wrong or outdated, that they look thoroughly at their rules, beliefs and traditions. No, ´we´ have to be respectful, ´we´ have to accept all that´s done in the name of a religion because the religion doesn´t allow people to think for themselves. I´m sorry if I insult someone, but I really get pissed off when I hear that everlasting moaning. It´s 2008 you know, grow up.

 Sui, can you give a summary of this text in translation and tell us why it irritates you, please?

Dear Fellows,

It is a complete and utter lie that Seyyidina Ayesha was ´Married´ to the Prophet [saw] at the age of 6 years.

She was bethrothed to effendimiz M [saw] at a ´YOUNG´ age according to the custom of the time, by her illustious father, Seyyidina Abu Bekr (ra).  Her ´Nikah´ and, later her ´Vida´a´ [tranfer as a wife] was at the age of 16 years [quite normal for the Arabs - and even now].

I can prove this from history.  let us examine the life of the Prophet (saw) ... because there lurks the nefarious   accusation of Paedophelia in the European mind ... where Paedophelia and incest is a common occurrence in the present society [I was born and live in England].

Prophet (saw) was the most kind, considerate, chaste, moral and loving person.  His whole youth was spent in monogomy with seyyidina Khadica [Hatice] ... 25 years older than him.  Apart from seyyidina Ayesha, ALL his wives were WIDOWS, whom he married for reasons totally removed from sexual desires [read his pure lifestyle].  He attained a position in life that he could have kept hundreds odf slave girls and married whom so ever he pleased from among the ´Damsels´ of the richest families.  Did he?  When he died he did not possess even a ´shekle´ of earthly wealth.  Paedophiles do not lead a life of such purity. They are not content with abusing just one ´minor´ it a pattern repeated throughout their life ... it ia character defect.  Do we witness this debauchery and lisentious pattern in the person of the Prophet (saw)??

A noted British author has observed: "No great religious leader has been so maligned as Prophet Mohammed. Attacked in the past as a heretic, an impostor, or a sensualist, it is still possible to find him referred to as "the false prophet." A modern German writer accuses Prophet Mohammed of sensuality, surrounding himself with young women. This man was not married until he was twenty-five years of age, then he and his wife lived in happiness and fidelity for twenty-four years, until her death when he was fourty-nine. Only between the age of fifty and his death at sixty-two did Prophet Mohammed take other wives, only one of whom was a virgin, and most of them were taken for dynastic and political reasons. Certainly the Prophet´s record was better than the head of the Church of England, Henry VIII." Geoffrey Parrinder, Mysticism in the World´s Religions (New York: Oxford University Press, 1976, pg. 121)

"But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men´s lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection." - - Dr Annie Besant (Dr Annie Besant in ´The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,´ Madras, 1932)

 

Allah destined him to marry Seyyidina Ayesha, so that she could survive the prophet (saw) for 50 years and the almost the whole Sunni Fiqh [Juresprudence] is based upon her dispensation.  The passage of History proved the segacity of this marriage.  As for accusation of adultery ... she was the target of slander by the enemies of Islam at the time, especially by the clan led by Abdullah bin Ubey, the arch enemy ... and Allah Himself absolves her and history proves this. 

 

By all means examine Islam as critically as you please.  But the moral character of the Prophet (saw) ... whether one believes in him or not ... is beyond any reproach.  It is unassailable from any aspect.  Every learned historian ... from every nation ... during earliest times to present day ... have nothing but marvel for this ´perfect human being´ who stands in the full glare of history like NO OTHER PROPHET of Allah.

 

It will not surprise me if people to day begin to accuse him of ´NOT BEING A HOMOSEXUAL´ ... like Christians say regarding their own holy people ... and quote this as a ´STRENGTH´ of the quality of their ´LOVE´ for humanity.

 

I do not need to twist the facts in order to apologise for efendimiz Muhammad.  He needs no defense.  But, I will say this to ALL MUSLIMS ... ´Ba Khuda deewana bashad ... ba Muhammad hoshiyar´ [Farsi] > ´Be as speculative regarding the nature of God as, you wish ... but be very careful with Muhammad (the beloved)´ ...

 

All Prophets of Allah, including efendimiz Muhammad (saw) were perfect human beings sent to guide us in morals.  Any misguided or careless remark regarding any of them IMMEDIATELY removes one from the pale of Islam.  By all means, examine Islam and Qur´an from every aspect ... but please I entreat you [if you wish to continue to remain Muslim] ... not to even think of ascribing even a minor criticism of the prophet (saw).

 

Ofcourse, "La ikraha fid din´, > there is no compulsion in religion, freedom of conscience is guaranteed.  One has full choice either to accept or reject islam.  BUT YOU CANNOT CRITICISE THE PROPHET (SAW) AND HOPE TO REMAIN MUSLIM.   If a Muslim does it under an impulse, he/she will have the whole eternity to regret it.

 

If one wishes to join Salman Rushdie >>> welcome >> but he had the courage to admit that he is no longer a Muslim.  So one is free to make their choice.

 

[Note: If someone wishes to debate the question of seyyidina Ayesha´s marriage from historical sources, please feel free either to send me a private message or e-mail me to momtaazjung@hotmail.com.  The only caveat being that one must be genuine in their enquiry and not conduct and argument for arguments sake ... I have no time for that]

 

***Please be as BRAVE and COURAGEOUS as you wish to be, in discussing aspects of Islam, but do not relinquish impartiality, sobriety and norms of rational debate. 

 

Tazx1

 Tell me please, why can´t I be critically about your Prophet while I don´t believe in him?

Well then I would suggest looking at other career options if you aren´t happy with your compensation or have a discussion with your employer.  I have been in the employment business for almost 15 years now hiring individuals.  A good percentage of people don´t want to work and rather have things handed to them by us taxpayers.  There are plenty of jobs in our country that offer benefits including health insurance, why do you think we have immigration problems?  Heck, even McDonalds offers retirement and health insurance.  There is no excuse not to have a job.

Using your logic, what would Jesus do...he would say be thankful for what you have! 

As a non-Muslim you have every leave to criticise the prophet (saw) ... and use any language you wish.  My advice is to MUSLIMS, and Muslims only.

As for others, my advice is only to be dispassionate and rational ... ultimately the choice is there´s.

If a Muslim insults any Prophet, including Prophet Muhammad (saw), they are instantly beyond the pale of Islam.  This is fact.  I am not asking you to subscribe to this rule.

Tazx1

You obviously haven´t been to this site long enough to know we discuss injustices all over the world. 

 It aren´t YOUR streets as well?

That is completely not true, although I can believe that you see it that way. I do agree with you that in the US there is some anti-muslims feelings, and muslims are all thought of being terrorists or near-terrorists. However... people like you are not helping to change this. Just by responding in this angry way, denying that any criticism of Islam is correct and in fact much needed, by not seeing the problems with muslims and islam, you are only contributing to more racism. I think you can thank yourself for being part of the problem.

It is very ironic that you ask people to look very clearly and objectively at Muslims, but you yourself do not do that. You simply want other people to accpept YOUR ideas and opinions. Well....

 + 10000000!!

 Rational discussion is one thing ... hurling and exchanging denegrating language and senseless argument quite another another.  It not civilise to discard the issues and become personal.  Whoever indulges in this, they are not enhancing the ´Forum´.

My comments are NOT directed at anybody, they are meant to be a general plea.

I have no doubt been hurt by many unjudicious remarks directed at Religious personalities [of whichever religion] ... because the tone of comments seemed to inflame opinions rather than meant examine issues.  Nothing ought to be ´OUT of BOUNDS´, but suitable language is advocated when touching upon sensitive subjects.  If I visit someone in Turkey or Japan, and if they ask me to take off my shoes, I ought to respect them.

Religion, despite all said and done, is a metaphysical topic, which needs careful and sensitive handling.  I respect the feelings of Hindus, Jews, Budhists, Sikhs, Christians, Muslims, Parsees and people of no faith.  And, wish to advise fellow members to kindly observe a modecum of good sense.  Every right carries with it a reciprocal obligation.  One should always keep this in mind.  One being a Muslim implies that one does not subscribe to any other faith, but one does not go about denegrading other faiths.  Ostensibly this not ´being FRANK´ rather it is being rude.  To wear a dress to cover one´s nudity is not same as hypocracy.

Muslims love ALL the prophets of Allah and hold them very dear.  If one wishes to criticise any of them ... they should be aware of this ... and consequently moot the topic in a spirit of civilized enquiry rather than expressing a controversial opinion just to sensationalise and shock.  Within these parameters, everything is acceptable.  Good sense is all that matters ... and it is hard to define it.  Please, be sensitive regarding sensitive matters.

Tazx1 

 Are you sure? Sura 5, 51....

Again, you are wrong. You are employing the "you did too" defense mechanism, which is really immature. All the problems you mentioned are of course present in the US. And the fact that there are so many problems only reminds us that criticism of ourselves is always extremely important. That free speech is extremely important, so that we can speak about the real causes and real problems freely, which is a must if we really want to solve anything.

However, if we judged any Muslim country by the same standards, or even an average Muslim family, I think you would have to admit that their problems are much bigger. Sexism, racism, militaristic history, inequality.... all these things are there, often much worse then they are here. So if you truly care about the Muslim people, if you truly want them to have better lives, you have to be honest about the problems of muslim communities. Even if Muslim women do obey their husbands, believe me, both men and women would be much happier if they respected their women more. And we can go on about this...

Tazx1

I am not sure you are aware but what you are saying is almost what the original article was talking about.

You are trying to thwart and silence an opinion by saying that ´you have to respect what I believe and you are not allowed to talk about my religion and my prophet´

There is no controversial opinion here.
But there is an opinion and IT HAS TO BE RESPECTED BY EVERY ONE.

The opinion mentioned in the article is nothing to do with being rude. It is just an opinion!!

How can you say that ´you are hurt´ with just ´an opinion´?

Well, if a person, just expressing his opinion like -Johann Hari did-´hurting your feelings´ then we can not talk anything about religion or islam or mohammed..

Your idea is the idea, prompted that article to be written in the first place.
I gave another link there a little girl forced to be married at 9 from yemen.
Dont you see that you hundreds of thousand of little girls have been abused because mohammed or religion are not allowed to be critisized properly by the muslims.
Then, How are they going to learn what is what if nobody critisize these things?
Critisism is always necessary as it is the only way to advance for better. You will look at the things, you will find the faults in them, you will critisize and in the end, things change..

You are giving this funny example about taking your shoes off in order to show your respect in other countries.
How can you relate critisizing the abuse of little girls all over the world with shoes and slippers?
Are you saying that we had to respect and do not critisize what they are doing in yemen to those little girls because it is the custom there?

You alose said that "Rational discussion is one thing ... hurling and exchanging denegrating language"

can you just tell me what is not rational in these posts?

I will copy the paragraph from my initial post again about "why critisisim is necessary":

Some people will instantly ask: why bother criticising religion if it causes so much hassle? The answer is: look back at our history. How did Christianity lose its ability to terrorise people with phantasms of sin and Hell? How did it stop spreading shame about natural urges pre-marital sex, masturbation or homosexuality? Because critics pored over the religion´s stories and found gaping holes of logic or morality in them.

double entry..

a bug report..going back in history with you back button refreshes the page and then creates another entry...

 Are you sure your just not trying to get your point accross.. (wink wink)  sorry don´t have emotion icon. hahaha

shhhhh...

dont tell anybody!! (and stop winking at me )

 I´m not getting into this anymore than to mention that the author of this article is, from what I can see, a male, and a noted secularist. I only mention that due to the fact that you say otherwise. Did I miss something?

 The person i quoted is a very well knowledged and very good person... he was one of the best persons for islam in Turkey... he was an old head minister of all imams and religious workers in Turkey...

he basically explains that Mohammed was not together and married to Aisah at the age of 9...

he says that we can find how old Aisah was according to her older sister´s(Esma) biography.

Esma was dead at the age of 100 and the hicret ( the big travel from Mekke to Medine) was 73 years ago from her death and Aisah was 10 years younger. so when hicret was done Aisah was 17 years old. And Mohammed was married to him 8 monthes after the hicret...

and he also says that Aisah was engaged to another one before!! when there was not islam in that city properly!!!!

so you cant make islam responsible for early marriages too.

thats the math and with the true sources... i think and most of people thinks that he is one of the trustworthy persons for such occasions...

Sui

You can say whatever you like but there are many other sources claim the opposite.

This is a contraversial issue , i dont think it will be solved easily and I dont think we will have an idea which will be known as ´a 100% fact´..

And also, aishe´s age is one of the hundreds of contraversial topics. (how many wives Mohammed had, how many childeren, was he a dudu when he was marrying hatice, how did he get married to his step son´s wife, why suddenly there was something before god which allowed him to marry her etc..)

Basically, all these have to be discussed without fear and being told of ´ah you are NOT respecting my religion´

 Fine then...you can keep your yellow roses. hahaha

You have forgotten the rumor he was gay.....

haha

well..ermm...I did not mean that..

I mean..you can wink at me..ok?

ha ha

I won´t as long as muslims don´t insist on saying 9 is the age that girls are like grown ups, old enough to marry, old enough to compulsary by the parents wear a scarf or tell me that the body of a child of 9 is grown enough to fast 29/30 days (while a boy has to start around 14, that´s what muslims tell me). And unfortunately I know quite some muslims who order their daughters to fast and the scarf from their nineth birthday, happily for these girls the law here does not accept marriages (but maybe they are not legally wed just imam nikah maybe...)

 Turkey is changing man!

i will give you one example now... Ataturk is one of the biggest Tabu of Turkey.

there was two girl who was telling about their love about Humeyni and they dont love Ataturk etc...

and then there was a court about insulting Ataturk etc...

and what jugde says? The value of Ataturk can not be changed according to that two ignorant girls love him or dont.

you can ask too many questions... i have no problems with that... but its irritating and not exciting to talk such things without good knowlegdes...

you know that Diyanet old minister!!! you are a Turk right? and also there will be such sansational news or comments just to create tension and discrimation between two religiouns... vice versa is also possible...

let me tell one thing... i was living at those times to tell you the truth really!! i really wish!

 I was also fasting at the age of 9! and i am still alive! and it was enjoyable!! coz i was at the same table eating joking talking with my parents and brother!

come on! the people in africa is fasting for all their life!!! you many more problems in this world near that what those f.cking extremists so called muslims do or think!

You missed my point: the compulsary one.

And yes, you are very right that some f.cking extremists so called muslims abuse the islam with their actions. Problem is, everywhere in the world this little group is heard and the very normal majority is so silent. Let them speak out against those extremists please, I really think that might change views.

 Rumor says he was gay or womanizer teas?!

İ dont think its appropriate to call a prophet either way,or dudu come to think about it !

 Our imams also say same thing about Ayşe´s age using math related to her older sister´s(Esma) biography.

And also the fact that she was engaged before to another man.

 The thing here is... you shouldnt get angry if they talk such things about your prophet you believe in...

Because these words can not or will not change your believes... so let them speak... just live your life... when they say something just argue with your sources and quotes...

no need to fight and make things personal...

 Well,actually Sui,i wont ,im very busy studying

Beside,i believe i said many things before,so they can consider me saying them again lol

But my point was,we can debat or criticise each other believes,i also dont have their believe,but we should respect each other Holy books,prophets,...ect

Well

of course, if your imams said the otherwise they would not stay as imam..

Tabari

Bukhari

Abu Dawud

They all say that Ayse was 9 years old when the marriage was consumed. They lived very close to the time when Mohammed was lived and marrying a girl at that age was not considered as blashamy as it is today.

And about me saying jokingly if he was a dudu: Of course I was refering to his marriage to hatica when she was 40 and he was 25 with not much money (and the 500 gold pieces he allegedly paid meyr -money a man paid to the woman before marriage-) and his other wives and slaves etc..

But anyway..That is not the topic here.

The topic was the ´necessity of criticism´

 What do you mean ?

Beside i believe you dont know my imams lol

The ones i refer to are the ones who have same positions as Sui said in Türkiye,and they are stating same

Also Syria´s imam stating same

So i guess,i also can provide such sources.

So,i dont get you,do you believe Rasul SAV was a dudu when he married Hadije ?!

And he was after her money ?!

And that wealthy woman,who was her hand asked to be wed from many other men,that wise woman who was running a very successful business,and whom has a high place in the society,picked him because .......?!

 I was giving an example from what handsom wrote..and yes there is a RUMOR he was gay and also a womanizer...I did not CALL a prophet anything!  Clearly, this is how rumors get started. ):

 "The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success." (Mein Kampf, vol. 1, chapter 6)

Catapult The Propaganda

 What you have done is imply or insinuate such a thing. It really is sneaky back door technique. You say, well I don´t know, but others have said..... and by suggestion your point gets over. It could be that you just don´t understand the implication and effect of your words, but it´s good to bear in mind that words are powerful.

You must understand that to Muslims, Mohammed, (sawas) is very dear. He is more beloved than you can imagine. You know what happens when someone curses or insults one´s mother or father. How do you think such things are perceived in the Islamic world?

If what you want is to hurt feelings, stir up hatered and discord, keep on by all means. If you want to foster understanding and cooperation, I would discourage such methods.

If you would open your eyes Alameda you would see I was mearly pointing out another RUMOR that is also controversial including the above.  What don´t you get about a RUMOR...it doesn´t insuiate or validate the truth.  Sorry, but I didn´t start this RUMOR and hopefully most people with common sense know never to believe one, unless you have facts.  I was giving another example including the many other rumors above that Handsom mentions.  Some people just like to make a mole hill into a mountain. 

I also heard a RUMOR that Mary wasn´t a virgin...no offense.  Oh and Elvis is alive!

 I also heard that "God is a DJ"

If you are that honest (...) there are many other sources to show the technique you wanted to show. I´m sure you can find many more links to educate us. The fact you have chosen this quotation tells me a lot about you....

Can He (or She - when you are Pagan) then please play some other songs? The war sounds of the last decade are getting boring.

 Can you give me the lines where those imams said that? as i given my source?

and you are forgetting the fact that... Mohammed meets with Islam during the marriage of his with Hatice! and Hatice was one of the first people who accepted the islam

And he was not after hatica! it was vice versa... duty his being honest and very good charactered person   so we can say that he was not a Dudu ...

 well change the cabinett then

where i am he plays ok

 He plays at our local nightclub on the weekends.  A few glasses of wine and he gets the house rocking. hahaha

 wine of love dear!! wine of love

If you would open your eyes Alameda you would see I was mearly pointing out another RUMOR that is also controversial including the above.  What don´t you get about a RUMOR...it doesn´t insuiate or validate the truth.  Sorry, but I didn´t start this RUMOR and hopefully most people with common sense know never to believe one, unless you have facts.  I was giving another example including the many other rumors above that Handsom mentions.  Some people just like to make a mole hill into a mountain. 

I also heard a RUMOR that Mary wasn´t a virgin...no offense.  Oh and Elvis is alive!

There is a line between criticism and insult,

debating why our prophet SAV had married more than 1 wife,why he married Ayşe,what was Ayşe´s age when he had married her...ect

All this can be discussed in healthy debats

Meaning,we can discuss them and me ´in general´ as the one who believe in that religion wouldnt be offended,or complain that you ´also in general´ meant to insult my believes.

As Trudy said,you dont believe in that religion,or i do believe in yours ,so sure we have our mutual criticism

Or else,i would have became Christian and you would have became Muslim.

But clearly saying that there is a RUMOR our prophet is a gay,womanizer, ´or dudu ! ´ and we should be open minded to discuss such...!

That is insult !

Same as saying that there is a RUMOR that Mary was .......not virgin.

That is also insult...and not welcomed

PS: something wrong with quotation !

And there is also a line between shrug (and think ´the one who says that is crazy´ ) and feeling insulted. A matter of length of toes, I believe.

Why, can you tell me that, is almost everyone laughing at jokes and mocking about priests, the Pope, reverends, rabbi´s, pandits, Christianity, Jewish belief, Hindoes etc. and are the same type of jokes or mocking about Mohammed or the Islam an immediate insult for muslims?

 For same reason we dont joke or mock about our parents,our mother,our father !

And dont accept it also from others.

I never asked for you to discuss it.  I was adding to handsom´s post.  But people want to blow it out of portion.

 Long toes, as I said.

 Sry,but what do you mean by that ?

 We call it respect.

 You would not like our comedians then Canli, they joke about everything including their mothers and fathers.  It´s not seen as an insult, unless of course your having a heated discussion. 

One thing that I noticed on the Last Comic Standing, a tv show here in the states they had a Muslim woman, she was making jokes about her culture, religion etc. and could laugh at some of these things.  She was quite entertaining and refreshing and actually made it in the top 20.

Bad eyes....my mother is to blame! hahaha

Here is a link about the comedian I was referring to.  Interesting read.

http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2004/09/21/mirza/index.html

 Yes,i know tea,last year or so,i have received an email from a friend ´not Muslim btw´and he sent me a clip,he thought it was funny

İt was about Christ singing Gloria Gaynor´s song,I will survive .

He was Christian,and he thought its funny,i am Muslim and i thought its inappropriate

He has sent it to many of his friends,i havent sent it to any.

As you see,we see things differently.

We dont joke or mock by our believes.

You mean she was/is making jokes about İslam,and Muslims believes although she is Muslim ?

No wonder that she made it in the top 20 back in the States  

I missed their performance in The Netherlands last April, but o boy, I wish I could go there. I saw previews and they are joking, mocking, being sarcastic, cynic etc. about anything.

http://www.allahmademefunny.com/

First, respect you don´t deserve, you have to earn it (a proverb in my country).

Second, if anyone has to respect your feelings while you react everytime as bitten by a snake, there is no discussion, open and honest, possible.

(You = common, not personal)

She is known throughout the world as the first female Muslim comedian in the UK.  Not only was she a hit in my country, she makes a living of this traveling throughout the world.  So apparently she has a diversed audience.

http://www.sholayevents.com/shazia_manhattan.htm

By the way your message could be seen as an insult as well, if I was that sensitive.  But I´m not!  So do you think all Americans liks to joke about Muslims?

 İ agree with that regarding communication,relationship between people....ect

But could you explain to me please,how would a religion,that you do NOT believe in,or you think it doesnt suites you,not logic...ect can earn your respect ?!

For someone or something to earn your respect,should convince you, find and see the logic in it,if you are convinced by other religion, find logic in it....then how come you believe in yours and not in it ?!

İm sry,but it cant work ´İm Muslim and convinced that Christianity is logical and right choice,or im Christian and think that İslam is logical and right choice ´

İts either this or that.

So actually regarding religion,we respect other people´s choices

Religion who earn your respect,you will believe in.

 I think perhaps another term you may better understand is

manners

I personally feel everyone deserves respect until they prove to me they don´t.

 That only if it wasnt true

Quote:

So do you think all Americans liks to joke about Muslims?

Well,not all Americans,but most i guess

As i cant say all Americans hate/dislike Muslims,but most.

But,i believe you ought to know better,so doesnt most of the Americans like to joke about Muslims ?

If I don´t agree on someone´s religion or culture, I do not have to respect it.  I may have to tolerate it, but not respect it.  Big difference!

Also, for the last time I DID NOT SAY YOUR PROPHET WAS GAY!

I could care less if he was married to 1 woman or 100 women or what his sexual preference was.

My country likes to joke about everybody including themselves, so no Muslims aren´t the only jokes being told in America.

 Care to explain ?!

İ say respecting but not believing in it.

You say,tolerate but not respecting

 İn my understanding,not respecting something means it would be a material to your insults,calling names...ect

And i believe you didnt mean that

So care to explain the difference between what i say and what you say?!

My dictionary says,

tolerate:

Put up with something or somebody unpleasant

Recognize and respect (rights and beliefs of others)

So ?

 Thank you, teacher, for showing me another of your links.

Canli, it´s very simple: I dont´t respect Islam nor Christianity nor Buddhism nor.... Why? Because they are things and I don´t respect things. I do respect Muslims, Christian, Buddhists when they showed me they earn it. I was taught by my (very Catholic) parents that no-one deserve respect just because of their being (in religion, age, status, profession or what) but they might deserve it in their behaviour. And earning that is simple: see and treat me as just another equal person, same level, worth the same, even though I have different ideas, beliefs, race, gender, age etc. That´s all.

Here is a good article on the difference between tolerate & respect.  He sums it up much better than I can.

http://www.booktalk.org/rationally-speaking/04-01-tolerance-vs-respect.php

Here are the lines:

Bukhari
    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:

    Narrated ´Aisha:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ´Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)´
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
    Narrated ´Ursa:   
    The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ´Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
   

Dawud
Book 41, Number 4915:

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu´minin:

    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr´s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.


    Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:
    Narrated Aisha:

    The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah´s Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah´s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
   
   
   Tabari, volume 7, page7: "....my marriage (to Muhammad) was consummated when I was nine....."
   Tabari, volume 9, page 131 "Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me"....

And regarding his marriage to Hatica.

Of course Hatica was after Mohammed.

She was 40 and he was 25.. Most of the sources will say that Mohammed was under his uncle´s umbrella at the time and he was very poor..

And then there is this meyr. she was valued as 500 gold pieces.. But no books say that the money was actually paid to Hatica.  And of course, during the marriage, Mohammed  did not get married to another wife..Some of the books say that he did not because Hatica had the money and the authority and she was the boss.. But after Hatica´s death Mohammed went into multiple marriages with a speed..

Anyway..

 İ agree with that,no one deserve respect for what he /she is,but for who he /she is.

 But Trudy,that takes time !

Earning respect takes time,at least few till you judge does he/she deserve your respect or not.

So till then,would you respect or disrespect that person till you judge him/her ?

İ would respect him/her till that time,even if it only took few minute,then the rule should be,´respect till prove otherwise´ yes?

And what do you think handsom ?

From what you said,i understood that she was a rich old woman who wanted to marry a young man

And she was such dominated woman in both work and home,that he couldnt escaped her untill she died..

So,im really curious to know what do you think ?

Maybe you and I have different ideas about respect but my answer is ´no´, I wouldn´t do that. I would treat them with a distance like politeness but my respect goes far beyond that level, so that you need to prove you deserve it.

 Maybe it would be worthwhile for you to actually read the link? I post them to enable you to learn more......and they are not only posted for your pleasure, there are many others here who do not post, but follow the conversation and may gain from what is posted here.

Isn´t this somewhat arrogant and demeaning?

 Handsom, this is not correct. I have these books myself and they were not written like that. The isnad is missing. You do know what a isnad is, don´t you?

First of all He did not desire to marry after Khadija´s (ra) passing. His companions told him that if he did not remarry that example would be followed by those after him. It was a woman named Hazrat Khawlah bint Hakeem (ra) who proposed to him that he marry Hazrat Sawdah (ra) widow from the refugees who went to Abyssinia) and Aisha (ra). He was reluctant to do this, but he was convinced. He was betrothed to Aisha(ra) and did not consummate the marriage until she achieved her "majority"

It may be noted also that of all his wives, it was Khadija (ra) that Aisha (ra) was most jealous of. He cared for her relatives and visited her grave. His love for Khadija (ra) is legendary.

 Somewhat is an eufemism.

Did you mean to write euphenism?

I understand why a lot of Muslims get so angry when people say they are all or most terrorists !

I also get offended when Muslims do exactly the same thing by saying all or MOST Americans or non-muslims hate them.

In the same point, how can you claim to know the mind of 300,000 Americans and all of Europe, the same we non-muslims cannot know the mind of a Muslim either !

Nobody likes generalisatioins but it seems everyone is EQUALLY guilty of using them!

 Did YOU mean to write EUPHEMISM???  Trudy is Dutch and the spelling was quite correct in her language.

 Trudy spelt the word correctly as far as I can see.  Perhaps Alameda was referring to how she used the word, not the spelling.  I´m not sure.

Guys,do we need to chill a little bit ?!

These threads always go the same way.

 Well,im sorry Cacık,also no one love to be hated or disliked !

But i didnt do much effort about it,your Media by all its means stating that one way or another,

reading comments of western people even under some youtube posts,in anything regarding İslam or Muslims saying this

Reading ZZ posts even here,describing how West see us,saying this ´even that wasnt zz intention of those posts´

So actually,you are watching few Muslims ´comparing to Muslims numbers´doing terrorists acts,and you condemning all Muslims by being terrorists

And i watch,read,hear dislike/hatred by most of the means we know ´Media,internet,..ect´ toward Muslims,serrounded by it,and you feel offended that i CLAİM most of the Americans,West hate/dislike us ?!

Well,ok,i also wish it is a claim...just point it out,and i will be VERY glad to admit that is claim,and im wrong !

... especially when you join in. Some people are actually trying to have a conversation, why don´t you go take a walk.

Canli, I think you are making a good poin here. But I think what you are missing is that if I (or other westerners) apply the same logic, we can also judge all or most Muslims in the same way. If you look at Muslim tv channels, if you look at youtube comments from Muslims, they are not that flattering to Muslims, you know? I just think that most people do not have the voice on tv and do not post on youtube. And those who post on youtube are not somehow representatives of all Muslims and Westerners - by the same token. So I think it´s wrong to make such assumptions about all people.

I do think you have a reason to think that there is an anti-Muslim sentiment in the west. And I also have a reason to believe that there´s anti-western sentiment among Muslims. But we do not know about all/most muslims/westerners.

Like Alameda was?

you are in a very interesting mood today...

Actually,and you are missing a point cat,or maybe two

First,if you will find anything against West in our Media,so that is only for the reason that you have invaded our lands ´USA,UK´

Surely you wouldnt think we will be happy about that and welcome it

Second,our Media doesnt talk bad about the West ,actually we have TV channels that broadcasting Westerns movies,programs,news,events...ect

And they are the most watchable TV channels among people,specially Youth

MBC2,MBC4,Dubai 1,mbc action,fox movies ´those are the free ones´

So no,we dont hate/dislike you...we hate what you do to us,we hate the fact that you hate us

Which made some people actually hate you

Some people used to think,we should make the West understand us better,and have good communication,try to close the gape between us,now most think,no need to pay any effort, because it wont change anything...so if they want to hate us....then let them !

PS: you and i ,we are generally speaking

 İ agree with that

Canli, it´s a pity you can´t read Dutch but else I would say ´take a look at www.marokko.nl ´ - a forum where many Moroccons living in the Netherlands give their opinion and you will be shocked when you read messages like ´f..ck this country´, ´don´t pay taxes, let´s destroy it´, ´let´s poison the water supplies in western countries´, ´all Dutch are kafirs and should get killed´, ´when we take over the Netherlands then ... (fill in just any threat)´ and thousands more.

I know that it is (hopefully) a minority who says things like that, but can you understand that people get sick of it? Can you understand that when someone calls a woman a whore just because she wears skirts a little above the knee, that woman is not pleased (and probably at guard when meeting the next person from the same group)? I don´t think you can call these happenings ´positive to the west´, do you?

Myself I haven´t had many negative incidents with muslims, but I can sometimes understand feelings from others. Still, I think Catwoman is right, you can´t say ´most´ without generalising. And when you talk about ´our media´ you mean the Egyptian media, I suppose? Perhaps they are different from other media?

I checked out the forum but couldn`t see any comments like what you told or anything close to it. can you give the exact links to the stuff you`re talking about?

Can you read Dutch? The examples I gave are not in English, so that´s maybe why you can´t find them.

trudy, thanks for enlightening me. I appreciate it, but babelfish is pretty good at Dutch.

Well, than you can find topics yourself. I don´t want to look there, many postings make me sick.