Hi Fellows

I have problem with reflexive verbs - can someone kindly explain:-

1.  Can ´case´ & ´person´ and ´tense´ suffixes [other than 3rd person, aorist tense] be added to these?

2.  If in doubt, how can one use ´Kendi´ to make the meaning clear.

I have resorted to several ´Teach Yourself´ books but the topic is not clarified in my mind! [Budalaiyim]

The books fail to provide enough EXAMPLES, they seem to give lot of verbal explanations [worst of all being being -Colloquial Turkish].

I have tried to focus on ´generally´ used verbs like, bilmek, etmek, yapmak, yazmak, konuþmak, ðörmek, çýkmak, çekmek, sormak, kapmak ... etc.

Every book seems to give only one general exaple by referring to ´Yikanmak´ [to clean oneself] !!  I seem to understand the ´concept´ but do not find ´variety´ of exemplar sentences [with their respective translation] in order to expand my understanding.

If it is too much to explain, even a reference to ´link´ will be welcome.

Any examples that I have come accross, seem always to refer to a ´Reflexive´ in [3rd Person, Aorist tense] like:-

> olunur, denir, bulunur, söylenir - etc.

Please forgive any spelling errors  [I am dyslexic and can´t help it].

Thank you.

Tazx1

Here´s a link that should be helpful with the reflexive pronouns and it gives multiple examples with sentences (Lessluv pointed me to it way back and I´m passing this along )

http://www.practicalturkish.com/turkish-pronouns.html

Other than that you form reflexive verbs by adding -in (according to vowel harmony) and you would treat the newly formed verb the same way as any other verb in terms of adding suffixes, etc. You have to be careful because the suffix -in is the same for passive voice, so I think it´s safer to use the reflexive pronoun unless you know for sure that the verb is reflexive (for example giyinmek - to dress oneself). The easiest way is just to check with the dictionary, for example the words you mentioned:

bilmek - when you add -in it forms bilinmek, which is "to be known" (passive), so to say to know yourself you´d need to use reflexive pronoun kendi

etmek - edinmek means to get, to acquire, to obtain - it´s nether passive, nor reflexive, probably a different verb altogether is my guess

yapmak - yapýnmak "to make something for oneself" - it´s reflexive verb, my guess kendine would not be required

yazmak - there´s no yazýnmak in the dictionary, and it wouldn´t make sense "to write yourself?" - you can write to yourself and use kendine to do so

konuþmak - there´s no konuþunmak in the dictionary - so use kendine if you want to talk to yourself

etc.

I hope that helps a bit, otherwise, maybe you can give examples of what´s confusing so more specific help can be given.

 Like Melek said - and some important info on the top of that:

It is very important to diferentiate reflexive and passive voice, as both are made by adding -l or -n suffix... The difference is,

Passive voice always uses 3. person, and the subject is unknown. 

Bina yakýldý.. The building is burnt..

if you want to mention the subject, then you say ..... tarafindan, like in english by......

While reflexive voice can be used for every person, and the subject is the person himself, so no need to say kendi-.... 

taranmak

süslenmek

giyinmek

atýlmak - to begin, to go into (the meaning wold be to be thrown if used as passive voice)

katýlmak

yýkanmak

temizlenmek

edinmek

kapanmak - to seclude oneself in (passive voice meaning - to be closed)

söylenmek - as in to complain (passive voice meaning - to be said)

kýrýlmak - to be hurt (the meaning would be to be broken if used as passive voice)

The suffixes are added to these words like any other word.

Almost all the verbs can be used as passive voice, but they can´t be reflexive...  the reflective meaning, and the passive voice meaning are not the same, but written exactly the same way.

For those verbs that there is no reflexive, but we want to use it like reflexive, then we use kendi with regular verbs (not passive voice) and also just to strengthen the meaning.

Check Melek´s link for this...

I hope it helps.

 Just a few follow-up questions re your post.

 Thank you for the explanations.

Melek74 & Merih, Thank you very much.

I am aware of the ´theory´, but not confident at all how to actualy phrase sentences.  I shall have to carry on searching for examples of actual sentences.

As you mention, the reflexive and the passive can be identical but their meaning is not.  I suppose it is just one of those things ... I´ll have to try and get over it myself.  Time solves many problems.  I only hope not to say something which offends or confuses the audience [too much].

Using Passive is not much of a problem, reflexive is.

Don´t worry > I´ll get there, insha´Allah.

Tazx1

Like Melek said - and some important info on the top of that:

It is very important to diferentiate reflexive and passive voice, as both are made by adding -l or -n suffix...

Do you use the -l suffix for the reflexive as well? From what I´ve read I thought only the --n/-in suffix was used for the reflexive and -il/-n/-in for the passive.

Check the example reflexive verbs.. you will see both with -l and -n...

The difference is,

Passive voice always uses 3. person, and the subject is unknown. 

Bina yakýldý.. The building is burnt..

if you want to mention the subject, then you say ..... tarafindan, like in english by......

In English it´s possible to use passive voice in other persons as well, for example, I was burnt by the fire. Would that be possible in Turkish, for example: Ben yakýldým ateþ tarafinda? (or something like that?)

Yes but then it is passive, not reflexive... and by the way, we don´t say yakýldým, we say yandým.  (yanmak)

While reflexive voice can be used for every person, and the subject is the person himself, so no need to say kendi-.... 

I think kendi- would be used when it´s the object of the verb, right? 

For those verbs that there is no reflexive, but we want to use it like reflexive, then we use kendi with regular verbs (not passive voice) and also just to strengthen the meaning.

taranmak

süslenmek

giyinmek

atýlmak - to begin, to go into (the meaning wold be to be thrown if used as passive voice)

katýlmak

yýkanmak

temizlenmek

edinmek

kapanmak - to seclude oneself in (passive voice meaning - to be closed)

söylenmek - as in to complain (passive voice meaning - to be said)

kýrýlmak - to be hurt (the meaning would be to be broken if used as passive voice)

The suffixes are added to these words like any other word.

Almost all the verbs can be used as passive voice, but they can´t be reflexive...  the reflective meaning, and the passive voice meaning are not the same, but written exactly the same way.

Did it make any sense Melek74?

It does make sense, except I´m still unsure about the -l endings. Which are the reflexive verbs that have the -l/-il suffix? Maybe I´m not understanding it right. For example in your examples:

- kýrýlmak means "to be hurt" - but that´s still passive verb form, the reflexive would be translated as "to hurt yourself" - so there´s a difference between the English "Did you hurt yourself?" and "Were you hurt"? One is passive and one is reflexive. Is there a different word for "to hurt sth/sb" in Turkish that you could use to say "to hurt yourself"?

- same with katýlmak - it´s translated in the dictionary as "to be added, to join", etc., which makes it passive as well - reflexive form would be "to add oneself" for example "I added myself to the list of the guests" (as in "I wrote my name down on that list") - would you use katýlmak for that?

Other than that I think I pretty much understand it

Thanks again for the explanations.

Passive voice always uses the 3rd person?? subject is unknown??

yanlýþ anlaþýldým. isn´t this 1st sg. person?

sevdik, sevildik. isn´t this 1st pl. person?

yemek yapýldý. isn´t yemek subject here?

Passive voice is a voice that indicates that the subject is the patient or recipient of the action denoted by the verb.

Ok, I hit the books, and found some examples.

The reflexive when the suffix -n/-in is used (according to vowel harmony) that has the meaning of doing something to oneself:

süsle-mek - to decorate, adorn, etc

süsle-n-mek - to decorate oneself, adorn oneself, deck oneself out

Zerrin´i gördün mü, parti için nasýl da süslenmiþ! Did you see Zerrin? Just look how she has dolled herself up for the party!

Ýlkbaharda kýrlar çiçeklerle süslenir. In the spring the countryside adorns itself with flowers.

giy-mek - put on clothing

giy-in-mek - to dress oneself, get dressed

Daha giyinmedin mi? Haven´t you gotten dressed yet? (Haven´t you dressed yourself yet?)

Hemen giyinirim. I´ll get dressed right away.

Giyindim ve sokaða çýktým. I got dressed and went out to the street.

Ümit, maçtan sonra yýkandý, giyindi ve dýþarý çýktý. Ümit, after the game, washed himself, got dressed and went outside.

hazýrla-mak - to prepare sth, get sth ready

hazýrla-n-mak - to get oneself ready, prepare oneself

Biraz bekleyin. Þimdi hazýrlanýrým. Just wait a bit. I´ll get myself ready right now.

Bir haftadýr bu sýnava hazýrlanýyorum. I´ve been preparing myself for this exam for a week.

Some reflexive verbs take on a meaning of their own and are not translated literally as doing something to onself. For example:

döv-mek - to beat, to strike, to spank

döv-ün-mek - to lament (to beat one´s breast)

Acý haberi duyan anne dövündü. On hearing painful news mother lamented.

sev-mek - to love

sev-in-mek - to rejoyce, to be pleased

Babam bu habere çok sevindi. My father was very pleased with the news. (My father rejoyced in the news).

Seni gördüðüme çok sevindim. I´m very glad that I saw you.

I hope that helps a little bit. Examples with the kendi were given on that link that was included in previous post, but if you want more, do say so.

yanlýþ anlaþýldým - I was misunderstood - by whom?

sevdik is active

sevildil - we were loved - loved by whom?

yemek yapýldý - food was made - made by whom?

I think your objection here has to do with semantics and how you define "subject" - I think Merih was referring to the subject as the "doer" the one that performs the action, which in passive voice is missing, unless you specify by whom the action is performed. In the passive voice the object of the verb becomes the subject in the sentence, and I think that´s what you´re referring to.