Hi Fellows

I have problem with reflexive verbs - can someone kindly explain:-

1.  Can ´case´ & ´person´ and ´tense´ suffixes [other than 3rd person, aorist tense] be added to these?

2.  If in doubt, how can one use ´Kendi´ to make the meaning clear.

I have resorted to several ´Teach Yourself´ books but the topic is not clarified in my mind! [Budalaiyim]

The books fail to provide enough EXAMPLES, they seem to give lot of verbal explanations [worst of all being being -Colloquial Turkish].

I have tried to focus on ´generally´ used verbs like, bilmek, etmek, yapmak, yazmak, konuþmak, ðörmek, çýkmak, çekmek, sormak, kapmak ... etc.

Every book seems to give only one general exaple by referring to ´Yikanmak´ [to clean oneself] !!  I seem to understand the ´concept´ but do not find ´variety´ of exemplar sentences [with their respective translation] in order to expand my understanding.

If it is too much to explain, even a reference to ´link´ will be welcome.

Any examples that I have come accross, seem always to refer to a ´Reflexive´ in [3rd Person, Aorist tense] like:-

> olunur, denir, bulunur, söylenir - etc.

Please forgive any spelling errors  [I am dyslexic and can´t help it].

Thank you.

Tazx1

Here´s a link that should be helpful with the reflexive pronouns and it gives multiple examples with sentences (Lessluv pointed me to it way back and I´m passing this along )

http://www.practicalturkish.com/turkish-pronouns.html

Other than that you form reflexive verbs by adding -in (according to vowel harmony) and you would treat the newly formed verb the same way as any other verb in terms of adding suffixes, etc. You have to be careful because the suffix -in is the same for passive voice, so I think it´s safer to use the reflexive pronoun unless you know for sure that the verb is reflexive (for example giyinmek - to dress oneself). The easiest way is just to check with the dictionary, for example the words you mentioned:

bilmek - when you add -in it forms bilinmek, which is "to be known" (passive), so to say to know yourself you´d need to use reflexive pronoun kendi

etmek - edinmek means to get, to acquire, to obtain - it´s nether passive, nor reflexive, probably a different verb altogether is my guess

yapmak - yapýnmak "to make something for oneself" - it´s reflexive verb, my guess kendine would not be required

yazmak - there´s no yazýnmak in the dictionary, and it wouldn´t make sense "to write yourself?" - you can write to yourself and use kendine to do so

konuþmak - there´s no konuþunmak in the dictionary - so use kendine if you want to talk to yourself

etc.

I hope that helps a bit, otherwise, maybe you can give examples of what´s confusing so more specific help can be given.

 Like Melek said - and some important info on the top of that:

It is very important to diferentiate reflexive and passive voice, as both are made by adding -l or -n suffix... The difference is,

Passive voice always uses 3. person, and the subject is unknown. 

Bina yakýldý.. The building is burnt..

if you want to mention the subject, then you say ..... tarafindan, like in english by......

While reflexive voice can be used for every person, and the subject is the person himself, so no need to say kendi-.... 

taranmak

süslenmek

giyinmek

atýlmak - to begin, to go into (the meaning wold be to be thrown if used as passive voice)

katýlmak

yýkanmak

temizlenmek

edinmek

kapanmak - to seclude oneself in (passive voice meaning - to be closed)

söylenmek - as in to complain (passive voice meaning - to be said)

kýrýlmak - to be hurt (the meaning would be to be broken if used as passive voice)

The suffixes are added to these words like any other word.

Almost all the verbs can be used as passive voice, but they can´t be reflexive...  the reflective meaning, and the passive voice meaning are not the same, but written exactly the same way.

For those verbs that there is no reflexive, but we want to use it like reflexive, then we use kendi with regular verbs (not passive voice) and also just to strengthen the meaning.

Check Melek´s link for this...

I hope it helps.

 Just a few follow-up questions re your post.

 Thank you for the explanations.

Melek74 & Merih, Thank you very much.

I am aware of the ´theory´, but not confident at all how to actualy phrase sentences.  I shall have to carry on searching for examples of actual sentences.

As you mention, the reflexive and the passive can be identical but their meaning is not.  I suppose it is just one of those things ... I´ll have to try and get over it myself.  Time solves many problems.  I only hope not to say something which offends or confuses the audience [too much].

Using Passive is not much of a problem, reflexive is.

Don´t worry > I´ll get there, insha´Allah.

Tazx1

Like Melek said - and some important info on the top of that:

It is very important to diferentiate reflexive and passive voice, as both are made by adding -l or -n suffix...

Do you use the -l suffix for the reflexive as well? From what I´ve read I thought only the --n/-in suffix was used for the reflexive and -il/-n/-in for the passive.

Check the example reflexive verbs.. you will see both with -l and -n...

The difference is,

Passive voice always uses 3. person, and the subject is unknown. 

Bina yakýldý.. The building is burnt..

if you want to mention the subject, then you say ..... tarafindan, like in english by......

In English it´s possible to use passive voice in other persons as well, for example, I was burnt by the fire. Would that be possible in Turkish, for example: Ben yakýldým ateþ tarafinda? (or something like that?)

Yes but then it is passive, not reflexive... and by the way, we don´t say yakýldým, we say yandým.  (yanmak)

While reflexive voice can be used for every person, and the subject is the person himself, so no need to say kendi-.... 

I think kendi- would be used when it´s the object of the verb, right? 

For those verbs that there is no reflexive, but we want to use it like reflexive, then we use kendi with regular verbs (not passive voice) and also just to strengthen the meaning.

taranmak

süslenmek

giyinmek

atýlmak - to begin, to go into (the meaning wold be to be thrown if used as passive voice)

katýlmak

yýkanmak

temizlenmek

edinmek

kapanmak - to seclude oneself in (passive voice meaning - to be closed)

söylenmek - as in to complain (passive voice meaning - to be said)

kýrýlmak - to be hurt (the meaning would be to be broken if used as passive voice)

The suffixes are added to these words like any other word.

Almost all the verbs can be used as passive voice, but they can´t be reflexive...  the reflective meaning, and the passive voice meaning are not the same, but written exactly the same way.

Did it make any sense Melek74?

It does make sense, except I´m still unsure about the -l endings. Which are the reflexive verbs that have the -l/-il suffix? Maybe I´m not understanding it right. For example in your examples:

- kýrýlmak means "to be hurt" - but that´s still passive verb form, the reflexive would be translated as "to hurt yourself" - so there´s a difference between the English "Did you hurt yourself?" and "Were you hurt"? One is passive and one is reflexive. Is there a different word for "to hurt sth/sb" in Turkish that you could use to say "to hurt yourself"?

- same with katýlmak - it´s translated in the dictionary as "to be added, to join", etc., which makes it passive as well - reflexive form would be "to add oneself" for example "I added myself to the list of the guests" (as in "I wrote my name down on that list") - would you use katýlmak for that?

Other than that I think I pretty much understand it

Thanks again for the explanations.

Passive voice always uses the 3rd person?? subject is unknown??

yanlýþ anlaþýldým. isn´t this 1st sg. person?

sevdik, sevildik. isn´t this 1st pl. person?

yemek yapýldý. isn´t yemek subject here?

Passive voice is a voice that indicates that the subject is the patient or recipient of the action denoted by the verb.

Ok, I hit the books, and found some examples.

The reflexive when the suffix -n/-in is used (according to vowel harmony) that has the meaning of doing something to oneself:

süsle-mek - to decorate, adorn, etc

süsle-n-mek - to decorate oneself, adorn oneself, deck oneself out

Zerrin´i gördün mü, parti için nasýl da süslenmiþ! Did you see Zerrin? Just look how she has dolled herself up for the party!

Ýlkbaharda kýrlar çiçeklerle süslenir. In the spring the countryside adorns itself with flowers.

giy-mek - put on clothing

giy-in-mek - to dress oneself, get dressed

Daha giyinmedin mi? Haven´t you gotten dressed yet? (Haven´t you dressed yourself yet?)

Hemen giyinirim. I´ll get dressed right away.

Giyindim ve sokaða çýktým. I got dressed and went out to the street.

Ümit, maçtan sonra yýkandý, giyindi ve dýþarý çýktý. Ümit, after the game, washed himself, got dressed and went outside.

hazýrla-mak - to prepare sth, get sth ready

hazýrla-n-mak - to get oneself ready, prepare oneself

Biraz bekleyin. Þimdi hazýrlanýrým. Just wait a bit. I´ll get myself ready right now.

Bir haftadýr bu sýnava hazýrlanýyorum. I´ve been preparing myself for this exam for a week.

Some reflexive verbs take on a meaning of their own and are not translated literally as doing something to onself. For example:

döv-mek - to beat, to strike, to spank

döv-ün-mek - to lament (to beat one´s breast)

Acý haberi duyan anne dövündü. On hearing painful news mother lamented.

sev-mek - to love

sev-in-mek - to rejoyce, to be pleased

Babam bu habere çok sevindi. My father was very pleased with the news. (My father rejoyced in the news).

Seni gördüðüme çok sevindim. I´m very glad that I saw you.

I hope that helps a little bit. Examples with the kendi were given on that link that was included in previous post, but if you want more, do say so.

yanlýþ anlaþýldým - I was misunderstood - by whom?

sevdik is active

sevildil - we were loved - loved by whom?

yemek yapýldý - food was made - made by whom?

I think your objection here has to do with semantics and how you define "subject" - I think Merih was referring to the subject as the "doer" the one that performs the action, which in passive voice is missing, unless you specify by whom the action is performed. In the passive voice the object of the verb becomes the subject in the sentence, and I think that´s what you´re referring to.

This is really interesting, I checked a few books, and most say that the reflexive is formed by -n/-in, EXCEPT Gökkuþaðý Türkçe, who does give examples of reflexive verbs with the -l/-il suffix, for example: bayýlmak (to faint, to feel faint), sýkýlmak (to get bored) - what´s even more interesting is that I found sýkýnmak meaning "to restrain oneself", which would be reflexive, but the book I mentioned gives sýkýlmak as reflexive too - üzülmek (to be upset, to be sad), etc. And those are verbs that in English would be translated in the passive voice. So I´m just wondering if maybe the English translation doesn´t really convey the "reflexive" meaning of those verbs.

Yes I guess so but it´s called agent (doer) and object is patient. In passive voice patient (object of active voice) becomes subject. This is very basic grammar knowledge.

Yemek yendi (yemek=subject)

Ýþ yapýldý (iþ=subject)

Söz söylendi (söz=subject)

Kutu açýldý (kutu=subject)

By whow? It doesn´t matter. Unkown most of the times. That´s what passive voice is all about.

 And that´s what Merih was trying to say. Like I said, it´s just a difference in semantics. Nothing to go to war over.

OK. Just I wanted to make it clear that it´s called subject of passive voice.

Without complicating the matter, my understanding is this:  Once we can form an infinitive, with -mek at the end [in any shape - whether in commomn, causative, passive or reflexive form > yapmak, yaptirmak, yapilmak or yapinmak > we can then use the ´estabkished´ way of dropping the -mek, and use the remaining ´verb stem´ in order to manipulate it!?  IS THIS PRESUMPTION CORRECT?  

My problem was that I got it into my tiny head that ´Yikanmak´ only means ´to clean one self´ and that it CANNOT be used for any 2nd or 3rd person.  But that is not right. So:-

Reflexive [with Yika-n-mak]

(Ben) Yikandim                     I dressed myself

(Sen) Yikandin                        you dressed yourself

(O) Yikandi                           He/she/it cleaned themself

(Biz) Yikandiz                         We ... ourself

(Siz) Yikandiniz                     You all .... yourselves

Onlar) Yikandilar                  They .... themselves

or using ´Kendi´+e  with using only the normal (common) infinitive ´Yikamak´

(Ben) Kendim-e yikadim                I clened myself                     

(Sen)  Kendini-e yikadin                You ...        

(O) Kendisi-n-e  Yikadi                   He/she/it ...

      Kendizi-n-e Yikadik                  We ....

     Kendinizi-n-e Yikadiniz             You all ....

     Kendileri-ne Yikadilar               They ....

[PLEASE GOD! TELL ME I HAVE GOT IT !!]

Passive    [using Yap-il-mek]

Yapildim               I was made

Yapildin

Yapildi

Yapildik

Yapildiniz

Yapildilar

If the ´doer´ is to be specified, we can add ´(falan) tarafindan´ [Note: No possesive if it ia proper Noun or using the possesive if it a personal pronoun e.g. Benim, senin, onun ... etc.]

I have used the Definite Past Tense to illustrate the point ... {but it will apply to all the tenses and moods}

Melek74´s examples >  [You are an angel 74]

1) Zerrin´i gördün mü, parti için nasýl da süslenmiþ! Did you see Zerrin? Just look how she has dolled herself up for the party!

2) Ýlkbaharda kýrlar çiçeklerle süslenir. In the spring the countryside adorns itself with flowers.

Suddenly did the trick for me!!!!!!!  Now who is going to tear me apart and throw me into a depression?

Tazx1

You´re too funny. I say let´s start a support group or something, god knows I felt like crying many a time lol.

I think yoU got it (to the best of my understanding, but hey, I´m a fellow learner).

One comment about the passive, I read somewhere that it is mostly used in the 3rd person to talk about things that were invented, discovered, etc. and that in the other persons the preferred voice is the active one. But I think it can be used for all persons and that would be correct gramatically.

Quoting Melek74:-

>One comment about the passive, I read somewhere that it is mostly used in the 3rd person to talk about things that were invented, discovered, etc. and that in the other persons the preferred voice is the active one. But I think it can be used for all persons and that would be correct gramatically.<

Melek74 is correct.  All the books, that I have come accross, use ´set piece´ verbs Açýldi, Yapýldi, Keþfedildi, Yazildi, Yikildi, to give give examples of the Passive use of verbs in the 3rd person >> with the ´actor´ left out.  When the ´actor´ is  specified, Trafaindan is used.   Passive verbs are comparatively easy to understand.

It is the Reflexive form which is very poorly dealt with.  One finds only loads verbal explanation and how to make them ... but no substantive examples to consolidate comprehension [for professional idiots like me].

Melek74 untangled the whole matter by quoting two apt examples which removed my ´blockage´, instantly.  I had been struggling with them for days, if not weeks till I was blue in the face.  All that I could glean from the books [and not very funny] ... almost every book gave the same ´set piece´ list of Passive verbs, and how to form them ... without supporting the explanation by way of sentences.   I was left with the idea that it can only be used for 1st Person i.e. ´Yýkanmak´ [To clean oneself] ... and that was all that was quoted, followed by a LIST of Passive verbs.  Saçma.

Melek74´a verecek için bir medal yapilacak.

Yes. You are correct and that´s what verb conjugation is based on. Add your list -me- (negative voice) suffix also.

Then it becomes as simple as how you would conjugate a verb (let´s call it V)

Aorist tense: V-ar

Past tense: V-di

Future tense: V-ecek

etc.

Example past tense:

Sev-di (V=gel)  = he loved (it/her/etc)

Sevme-di (V=sevme) = he didn´t love (it/her/etc)

Sevil-di (V=sevil) = he was loved (by him/her/etc)

Sevilme-di (V=sevilme) = he was not loved (by him/her/etc)

Sevin-di (V=sevin) = he became happy, he liked it

Sevinme-di (V=sevinme) = he didn´t become happy, he didn´t like it

Seviþ-ti-ler (V=seviþ) = They loved each other

Seviþme-di-ler (V=seviþme) = They didn´t love each other

Sevdirme-di (V=sevdirme) = he didn´t make himself loved by others

etc.

<!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:maroon; font-weight:bold; mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt; mso-header-margin:35.4pt; mso-footer-margin:35.4pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> 

Thanks for the examples and translations si++.

They are useful for all learners. 

Watch out with sev-iþ-mek.

Doesnt mean "we love each other" : it means to make love to one another.

Korean friend of mine shocked the Turks at church when she meant to say "Jesus wants us to love one another". She said "Ýsa birbirimize seviþmemizi istiyor."

That doesn´t mean my example  is wrong. You have learnt something new.

Ýki elti çok seviþirler

 True, nowadays, it makes people giggle, but in fact in its context where there would be no doubt of what we want to mean, it can still be used. In literature, it´s used.

 When you say "Ýsa seviþmemizi istiyor", we do not have enough context to know what we exactly want to mean, so it can be understood as "he wants us to make love".

Anyway, "Ýsa birbirimizi sevmemizi istiyor" is much better to say for this reason.

PS. when you use "-iþmek, -ýþmak" suffix, you do not use "birbirimiz" because it already gives that meaning.

 You got is quite right, but I still made a correction about your examples with "kendi"

konuþmak - to talk

tanýþmak - to introduce, to meet

seviþmek - to make love

görüþmek - to meet

These are called "iþteþ eylem" meaning reciprocal verb... so they have the "each other" meaning in itself, as these action involves 2 or more people.

I made even a bigger ´gaff´ by saying to my neighbours elderly mother ´iyi yaptidikleriniz, seviþdiðileriniz, seni hiç unutmeyecðim´ - bu iþitence sesini kesverdiler ve birden bire, etrafindaki komþulerim, kahkaha atamaya baþladýlar.  Ben ne olduðuna çok þaþýrmiþ kaldim.  Biraz sonra Bir ingiliz bilen arkadaþle beraber sormektenden ne garip bir kalime soylemekteydim, cok utangaþtim.  Bir çare bulmadim, sadece sustum kocakarinden affetmedim bile. 

I don´t know if memebers can understand my experience related in Turkish.  Ama bu bir sirrimiz.

Selamlar.

Tazx1.  

MERIH

 ´duzeltinizden´ Thank you, I tend to forget the ´-i´ all the time.  And, also not quite sure how to combine ´Kendi´ with > Kendim-i or Kendim-e, Kendin-i and Kendin-e etc.

I jst close my eyes and hope for the best.  You are most welcome to give a tuition regardint this.  It is just one of those things that I seem to grasp [while I am looking at it] ... and then I seem to lose it again.

I am a professional idiot. 

P.S.>  WHAT IS THE SAFEST WAY OF SAYING ... WE LIKE EACH OTHER??

IS IT >  ´Bibirimiz-e siviyoruz´  ?????

Tazx1

 So!  In ´Yemek yendi´ > yendi is Passive {the food was eaten] ... as obviously it cannot mean [the food ate itself] > but starngely ´Yendi´ in REFLEXIVE form will mean ´He/she/it did win´, he/she/it won, he/she/it defeated (something)

In the Reflexive mood the meaning seems to change drastically.

A new thread is needed as we are getting all kixed up with Passive, reflexive, Reciprocative and Co-operative verbs.

Anyway >>> Thank you all, especially Angel74 [Melek74] & Merih.

Tazx1

Please be mindful of my dyslexia and try to read ´in between lines´ when something is obviously ´mis-typed´.

Just a quick note.

Yenmek does indeed mean "to overcome, to conquer, to beat" according to the dictionary here, however it is not a reflexive verb.

If you wanted to make reflexive out of yenmek I think you would need to use it with the word "kendi".

This is how I understand it, maybe a native speaker (or somebody more experienced) can correct me if needed.

We like each other - birbirimizi severiz

We love each other - birbirimizi seviyoruz 

sevmek takes a direct object with the -i/-ý/-u/-ü ending so it´s birbiri-miz-i sevmek

I think you can also say "birbirimizden hoþlanýyoruz" or "birbirimizi beðeniyoruz", but not 100% sure on that one.

 Hi Angel74.  This is important news > I took ´yendi´ to be from the infinitive ´ye-n-mek´ > in actual fact it is a verb in its own right [as it stands]  -- yendi --- and the ´di´ bit is not indicative of Past Tense!?  Is that right?

If it is correct then what Auxiliary verb [olmak, etmek, yapmak, kazanmak etc.] can we combine with ´Yendi´ to make it conform to a ´tense´

Yendi+olur; yendi+olacak,  yendi+oldu, yendi+olmuþ, yendi-yen+ olan, yendi-y-miþ +olan, yendi-dik-ce

Do you reckon we can use them as such?  ´lol´ [loud-online-laughter]!  

Tazx1

If you take yendi to be from infinitive ye-n-mek that it means "was eaten" and it is passive voice for ye-mek. So you´re right in that.

However you also said that yendi can be reflexive for "to win" and I responded to that, that no, that´s not the case. "To win" is yen-mek and it is a verb in its own right with the "yen" as its root. In order to make it a reflexive verb you need to use "kendi" (oneself).

For example to say "He conquered the enemy himselff" you can say "Kendi düþmaný yendi" (I hope I translated it ok, if not hopefully somebody will correct it).

So my point was to make a distinction between a reflexive verb and a non-reflexive verb.

I hope I didn´t confuse you further.

Thanks Angel.  Clear as a bell.  Cok iyi Anladim.

Over and Out.

Senin sonsuzluga

Tazx1

Yes yenmek is passive of yemek.

When a verb ands with a vowel -n- is used for passive and also for reflexive (if possible).

Examples:

de-mek = to say -- de-n-mek = to be said

ye-mek = to eat -- ye-n-mek = to be eaten

söyle-mek = to say -- söyle-n-mek = to be said and söyle-n-mek = to tell something himself

yýka-mak = to wash -- yýka-n-mak = to be washed and yýka-n-mak = to wash himself

koru-mak = to protect -- koru-n-mak = to be protected and koru-n-mak = to protect himself

etc

It really depends on the context as you can use "we like each other" in various circumstances.

If that "we" in the sentence is just to casual friend and you are talking about your relationship to a third person, you would say "Birbirimizi severiz"

If you say "Birbirimizi seviyoruz", this would sound like

"we are in love with each other"

"Birbirimizi beðeniyoruz" would rather mean

"we find each other physically attractive."

You can use "Birbirimizden hoþlanýyoruz.", if you are just beginning to a relationship/love affair

and still want to avoid using big words like "love", "adore".

mertsoy & si++

çok açýkca anlattýðý için teþekkur ederim.

Tazx1