The question of freedoom of speech on this site...

I am quoting a post from the other thread so that we continue this discussion here.

Quoting Kiara

It may be called "Freedom of Speech" but regardless, insulting a countries nation values (especially on a site where Turkish people (and others) are trying to help teach their language to people) is not only inappropriate, but it is kinda rude . We forget that the word "freedom" doesn´t necessarily mean that we say or do whatever we want....because then we take away other people´s freedoms by our actions. We should always be careful with our freedoms so that we don´t infringe on the freedoms of others .

First of all, I think that imposing one set of "national values" on all the Turkish and non-Turkish but interested in Turkey people is called dictatorship. There is a lot of Turkish people whose ideas are different then the mainstream ones, and not respecting those people and their freedom to express their ideas and concerns means that the country is oppressive towards their own citizens.

Second of all, we do NOT affiliate this site with ANY political ideas. We simply think that everybody should be able to say freely what their thoughts are.. which brings us to number three..

Third of all, you mentioned that sometimes our personal freedom infringes on the freedom of others. That is true. Some opinions are not tolerated by us and most human societies, because they imply harm to some groups of people. For example, we do not tolerate nazism or fascism because they are hateful in their nature. That´s why our rules say that racism, sexism and other forms of hatred are not tolerated on this site.

Biggest question is what is insulting? What an insult is for person A might be very well the truth by person B. Is it for those who think that every form of critisism is an insult only acceptable if people say ´Hallelujah, Turkey is great, Turkey is the best?´

I do love Turkey - the culture, nature, people, food - I´ve been there 7 times now and I sure will go back more. Still I do see as well situations that are NOT ok and I won´t stop expressing my opinion about that. The same as I love my own country and see the things that are not good here. I will never say to anyone, national or not, they cannot critisize my country because I think that critisism only makes people stronger - one can learn from it!

Why?  This is a serious question.  Why do you take criticism of your country so badly, yet feel so free to criticise other countries?  Criticism is not "insulting", it is not personal, it is not meant to offend.  It is a healthy thing in, or about, any country.  There is even an expression "healthy criticism"!!!  I am interested to know..is it comparable to a "family" situation, i.e. it is ok for YOU to criticise your brother, but completely unacceptable for someone else to do it?

Your comment above smacks of the mentality that results in censorship and banning of sites such as YouTube. 

You would prefer people here to only talk of what they love about Turkey and hide their negative feelings on some topics behind big smiles?

This is a serious question - would like a serious answer not a defensive bat!

 Kiara I don´t think you have thought through the implications of what you are saying.  The word freedom DOES mean we should be able to say whatever we want.  There is nothing wrong AT ALL in insulting a "country´s values" - it is not personal and is not in any way comparable to insulting someone personally.

To remain silent about any country´s values or deeds is to give silent acquiescence.  For example, would you stand by and watch a woman being stoned to death as a government´s punishment and say nothing about it for fear of seeming inpolite?

Countries who censor criticism can only have something to hide, in my opinion.

 So true!!!

seconded!

Some people here see no difference between expressing judgement and insults. Let me use Janis´s example in another thread - he says he feels compelled to protect his homeland when somebody criticised his national anthem. He should by all means do so, but his right to defend what he likes shouldn´t mean that people must like the anthem. It´s just a song, some people like it, some don´t. Just like kokoreç.

Saying you don´t like honour killings, policy towards Kurds or the YouTube ban is not insulting, is it? If somebody showed up saying (it´s an example not what I think!) "All Turks are stupid, dirty and pathetic" That would be an insult and a lie of course. As long as you´re expressing your opinion and do it basing on your moral/ethical grounds, what´s wrong with that?

This thread"Freedom of speech"in TCL brought Orwell´s Animal farm quote to my mind

"ALL PIGS ARE EQUAL BUT SOME PIGS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS´

now, cat and her freedom of speech . what a paradox!

it is not about freedom of speech we should talk about. we all know about it but perceive it different. according to the majority of turks the freedom of speech works only to one direction.

it is about turkish paranoia

 Or western paranoia with turkish paranoia.

I wont quote any of you coz mot of you in same idea.

first of all, do not mix apple and pear.

insulting, criticizing are different things. if I call someone here as "whore", u cant say this is "freedom of speech". of course she can say Im not whore Im a good girl but there will always be a question mark on minds.

I have seen many comments like this on this site. one of members keep doing this all the time.  once about Ataturk some ppl wrote insulting things like "dictator, liar". u can think this is freedom of speech but this post leave in the shade what Ataturk did for this country and what did he chage and in which circumstances. and again I posted something about turkey, turkish educational system, again hge came and insulted that kind of events. I understand if someone believes that somethings are  not important and must be changed but we mustnt forget that still most of ppl respects and likes these.

of course, for EU membership Turkey is doing some regulations in law. There will be many changes in life but our culture will continue. We will never accuse someone who has never judged coz of this, being a murderer or faschist after he died. coz it s really bad thing to accuse someone who is lont alive, he will have no chance to defend himself. if he is a really good person and innocent we will leave a question mark on minds.

yes here is the our difference!

u cant see the things from our side.

maybe u compare with ur national anthem.

it s not just a song for turkish ppl. it s a holy poem which tells all martyr who died for homeland.

maybe u dont feel anything when u hear turkish national anthem but u dont know how we feel when we listen to it.

  lets laugh together canim

tell me more about western paranoia. it doesnt sound familiar to me.

 I do not understand your reasoning DD in the case of any national anthem of any country,not only Turkey.Comparing it to kokorec sounds very parochial,I wonder how would you react if somebody compared our anthem to "kaszanka´?

Yes ,up to a point  I agree,ppl may like or not it but IT DOES NOT MEAN that anybody is at liberty to mock at words or  a tune.Even anarchists do not...And despite one´s likness or lack of it the respect should be kept.The thing that this site lacks.

If a song or a poem was chosen to represent the nation there must have been a valid reason for which this song or poem was placed over others.VALID for the nation ,which means  that any  public mockery and insults at the anthem  are targeted at its people.

I think that some people here take others´ personal opinions as absolute facts, and maybe that´s why they find them insulting.. If someone called Ataturk a liar, maybe that person explained that Ataturk lied about something.. Ataturk being a dictator is a fact actually - he did impose his rule and squandered opposition.. although Ataturk is still a hero and an absolute genius, his dictatorship was not one of those megalomanic ones like others in history, who just wanted power.

Janissary, I think you are simply exaggerating that we allow insults here, we actually do not, it´s just criticism that you take as an insult. like you did in the case of the thread about the helicopter crash!

But anyway... I think that maybe some people should accept the fact that people´s opinons differ.. I don´t agree with many people here on many topics, but I don´t say that they don´t have the right to have their opinions or say them here..

I do disagree completely with DD about the national anthem thing. The anthem is the nation´s history.. maybe it is (like in case of Poland) people having fought my freedom, so that now I can take it for granted. It´s not a matter of "either you like it or not", it´s a matter of "you either are proud of your nation´s history, or not", but that has to be phrased differently.. I think.

 And I disagree with this. Not because of the Turkish (or Polish) anthem - I don´t think I´ve heard them but because anthems are not always chosen by people from now. I can only say about mine. Written somewhere in the 1600´s with a text that says ´of German blood´ and ´obeying the King of Spain´ (who THEN ruled my country. Well, I AM proud of my country (and its history) most of the times but I don´t feel any bonds with German blood or the Spanish King. If people want to critisize that or mock about it: be my guest.  

anthem is an anthem simply. just a song, not a history. why cant it get criticised ?

lalalala  lalala

 Exactly my idea.

 because you both do not come from the country whose freedom was gained by blood shed  on the battlefields and our values simply differ but even your origin does not give you the right to mock at other countries anthems.Enjoy mocking at yours if you feel the need .

Yeah, that is true...

Ho ho, you don´t know a thing about my countries history. Many wars with many victims were at battlefields: fighting the Spain (Inquisition), the French (Napoleon), the Germans (WW II) and many situations more. It´s just that I think that events of centuries ago should be seen with nowadays views. And happily my freedom of speech gives me the right to mock. If yours limit you, so be it.

 ok, i dont know how to mock your anthem.

and what the f..k anyone started with anthem insulting as if anyone did indeed?

trudy, stop mocking the turkish- polish anthems.

dont you see how angry you made adana and catwoman by constant mocking their anthems?

didnt you have enough mocking turkish anthems making people like janissary angry and defensive?

stop im fed up with your anthem mocking posts that you produce every wedndesday.

catwoman says that these thoughts are personal and not belongs to TC. but one of your moderator wrote one of these posts. and u didnt warn any of these members. I saw ur site rules probably it s written after these events. but u still have responsibility.

it s normal that foreign ppl think ataturk was dictator. coz he established a modern country. that s why they wont like him. if we are not like iran we owe all this to ataturk. we mustnt forget that it was the western countries who supported iran regime and created a region based state. it s an interesting contradiction. we are lucky that we had a leader like Ataturk.

MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK´s
ADDRESS TO TURKISH YOUTH
Turkish Youth, Your first duty is to preserve and to defend Turkish Independence and the Turkish Republic forever.
This is the very foundation of your existence and your future.
This foundation is your most precious treasure.
In the future, too, there may be malevolent people at home and abroad, who will wish to deprive you of this treasure.
If some day you are compelled to defend your independence and your Republic, you must not hesitate to weigh the possibilities and circumstances of the situation before doing your duty.
These possibilities and circumstances may turn out to be extremely unfavourable.
The enemies conspiring against your independence and your Republic may have behind them a victory unprecedented in the annals of the world.
It may be that, by violence and trickery, all the fortresses of your beloved fatherland may be captured, all its shipyards occupied, all its armies dispersed and every corner of the country invaded.
And sadder and graver than all these circumstances, those who hold power within the country may be in error, misguided and may even be traitors.
Furthermore, they may identify personal interests with the political designs of the invaders.
The country may be impoverished, ruined and exhausted.
Youth of Turkey´s future, even in such circumstances it is your duty to save Turkish Independence and the Republic.
You will find the strength you need in your noble blood.

 shhhhhhhhhh

let them feel more heroic when they speak about their countries.

 Should I feel ashamed or scared? Sorry honey, I´m not.

 Do not compare amount of Polish blood lost  fighting for our AND OTHER NATIONS FREEDOM to Dutch one as you  appear not to  know  our history as well.)

Well, cat, as someone who spends a lot of time on TC, I obviously enjoy it.  I have never felt like my personal freedoms have been limited by mod/admin actions although, at times, my feelings have been hurt or I have gotten angry at another member.  Neither of these situations is your fault nor the fault of TC.  I don´t expect mods/admin to ever intervene because of my personal feelings.   

 no, you must be removed from this site. coz you write blasphemous posts every 15 minutes.

have you learnt turkish anthem by heart before entering this site? and do you sing it every morning?

polish anthem is a must song, you should sing it twice a day (this is only for evil dutch).

 You are forcing Trudy to go beyond impossible,will she be able to learn all stanzas of´Mazurek Dabrowskiego"?

But it is not the end of her education on anthems,she should also be familiar with BOGURODZICA,to which we have such  national addiction,btw our former anthem)

 Just look around you....on these boards as well. On another thread tamikidakika speaks of a poll which suggests american paranoia towards muslims. Turks don´t have the monopoly on paranoia. Indeed if you were to mingle with the thousands of my fellow scots in Hamden tonight and pass disparaging remarks about Scotland you might encounter scots paranoia in some form or another.

I agree with this comment (!!).  As I mentioned in a post recently, if you feel you are not a victim of scare-mongering and propaganda in the west, then you are living in dream world.  You only have to read newspapers like the Daily Mail and the Daily Express to see how they love to spread paranoia....

scots are evil

I am sure you have noticed that I was trying to avoid writing anything as response this..

But lets cut the crap here..

Janis is talking about me here and we had this argument before and somehow we keep getting the same thing again and again(He was not very successful earlier in my view, god knows why he thinks he will be  this time)

Lets start:

-National anthem. I remember saying that music our national anthem ´might have been taken´ somewhere from the west from a song called ´Carmen Silva´. 

By saying this, do you think i am disrespecting our national anthem? 

I have also critizised the words in our national anthem by saying that it contains some racist words..

This is the first two section we keep singing 30 times a week :

Fear not! For the crimson flag that proudly ripples in this glorious twilight, shall not fade,

Before the last fiery hearth that is ablaze within my nation is extinguished.

For That is the star of my nation, and it will forever shine;

It is mine; and solely belongs to my valiant nation.

Frown not, I beseech you, oh thou coy crescent,

But smile upon my heroic race! Why the anger, why the rage? ¹

This blood of ours which we shed for you shall not be blessed otherwise;

For Freedom is the absolute right of my God-worshiping nation.

I am saying what I said before again!!

By saying this, do you think i am disrespecting our national anthem? 

If some people think so, and raging with anger because of me saying that thenm too bad for them..

They can say whatever they like!! I did not care what they said previously, there is no indication from my part that I will take them more seriously this time..

-Ataturk..

Ataturk was not a god..Trying to think Ataturk was a god, itself is an insult to Ataturk..

He could be considered as a dictator in ´his time´ with today´s values..But so what?

He was a great politician as well as a one of the greatest soldier Turks have ever seen..As every soul in this world lies at some stage in life, I am sure he lied too..But so?

But he was a person for god´s sake..

"What he has done can NOT be shadowed"  him being a dictator or he lied..

He was not a pagan god..

By saying this, do you think I am disrespecting Ataturk? 

If some people think so and jumping up and down with anger because of me saying that, then, sorry but they will keep jumping up and down, higher and higher!!!

-And about respecting the dead people; because he died etc..

I have every single right to ´not to feel sorry´ about a person who died and I have every right to ´not to respect´ a person because he died..

As I said you can accuse me about it as much as you can accuse ´a Chilian not feeling sorry because of Pinochet died´. 

And I made it claer about it in the relevant thread when I said, I can bring you the list about what murders he was associated with´. 

Anyway..

The truth is, I am getting increasingly annoyed about the fact that people keep answering me with the swearings only. 

It is tiring and annoying. 

1. Views of moderators and administrators do not represent the views of the site. TurkishClass.com website and its owners are not responsible for the opinions of site users.

2. This is your opinion (and one of many others), some may want to debate some details of this topic with you. Fortunately, they are able to do it on TC.

im tired of this.

im tired of scotts who are full of hatred and ready to crucify everyone not-scottish. barbarians!

im tired of americans who hate 6 million muslims in their own soil.

im tired of europeans who are so much intolerant and fascist that they turn the lives of non-europeans into hell.

A minority are like this yeah but not all !!  Has a Scot upset you???

But I certainly respect your freedom of speech in using the word barbarians

yes, theres one scott on here.

thank you for respecting my freedom. do you also belong to barbarians or are you one of those who cant be insulted COZ they think they are holy cows?

Well !!!!   I would say neither cos I don´t think Im a barbarian and I can take an insult easy, no problems !!  Everyone has an opinion and even if I disagree with it, I don´t get offended or insulted

Insult away

 I thought all of us bed Amerikans were the Holy Cows! 

 im fed up with holy cows.

im searching for your anthem to mock it. help me.

 Well, Americans sometimes mock their own anthem/culture/Americaness.  We call it "HUMOR"......something that has seemed to escape some other cultures. 

it has escaped many cultures including polish. shhhhhhhhh.

Wow....I´m stepping very cautiously and timidly into this conversation ... the only reason being that I feel a little bit of obligation to say something since it was my quote that started this thread.

First, let me just say that I do believe that with freedom comes responsibility. Absolute freedom would otherwise create absolute chaos. That´s why we have laws in a society so that people just can´t do whatever they feel like doing and call it "my freedom of this or that"

That´s what I believe....anyone that wants to can disagree with me...I won´t be offended by that. But if anyone starts to call me names for my belief, then the offense would come. There definitely is a difference between having an opinion, expressing that opinion whether it´s just a thought or a criticism  as opposed to Insults.

In my statement, "It may be called "Freedom of Speech" but regardless, insulting a countries nation values (especially on a site where Turkish people (and others) are trying to help teach their language to people) is not only inappropriate, but it is kinda rude . We forget that the word "freedom" doesn´t necessarily mean that we say or do whatever we want....because then we take away other people´s freedoms by our actions. We should always be careful with our freedoms so that we don´t infringe on the freedoms of others ."  You notice that I said "insulting a countries national values" not commenting, giving an opinion, or criticizing.

If we stop for just a minute to realize all the blood that has been shed to give us the freedoms we enjoy in our individual countries today, I think it would tend to make us want to be very responsible with our freedoms.

I for one, am very proud of my country, I love my country....but I love other countries too! If I live in another country, I would respect the rules and cultures of their country. If there was something that came up that I disagreed with I would say something (eventually) to someone about it, but believe me, it would be in a very respectful manner so as not to offend that country and it´s people.

I believe there is history in a national anthem...there is definitely history in the anthem of America! People don´t have to respect my country´s anthem or it´s flag... I stand and put my hand over my heart when the anthem is sung and the flag is present. And I know that if I saw someone blatantly disrespecting the American flag, I would be saddened and probably angered by it.

Also, I want to clarify:  I am not one of the Americans who "hate 6 million muslims in their own soil." I do not hate muslims at all...and I know alot of Americans who feel the same as I do. There is paranoia in my country too.

I am hitting the send button and then I might hide for a little while   Please throw roses not insults!!

lisa, are all amrikans now these humorless poor souls?

vai vai, i need your anthem, i need mocking tonight.

 Great ability. Not everyone has it.

 mwaaaaaaaaaah

i have saved so much saliva being absent

 Go to www.googleananthem.com.  You can google yourself an anthem now!

  i cant. i lost my ability to google.

it is interenting that this man is always critizing Turkish people. but I havent seen any post of him critizing terrorist actions of some kurdish people. when some ppl bombed innocent ppl somewhere, he is always critizing turkey, not foreign powers behind them. according to him, sometimes  it s their right to bomb somewhere if you dont give what some groups want. when all turkey is sad for these ppl died in terrorist attacti, for some reason he is trying to find a good reason beind this massacre.

About Ataturk, we dont see him as a god. every country has a hero in their history, who did great revolutions and changed the destiny of a country in a good way. but here we forget that it s not easy to do a revolution in a country, governed with sultanate for centuries. and bring this country democracy. maybe he thinks sultanate is better than democracy.

everybody knows that Muhsin Yazicýoðlu was not a murderer. if you read about him, or from other ppl who were in opposite parts at that time, you will see that he struggled to stop bad events. He was out of the events at that time. of course he was a leader of a nationalist group. that why he was accused for this individual murders, not by his activity.

about our previous discussion, I dont agree that I was unsuccessful coz u were supported by moderators and u called me as racist, and managed it. everybody knew me as racist wth the help of moderators. I was the one who was warned after my answers to ur posts. I dont know what did u live in turkey but u still have an anger against turkey like other friends of you.

I didn´t just write that "out of my head" sporadically I have thought about this thing of "freedom" for sometime and have come to these conclusions personally a while ago. Freedom cannot truly be "freedom for everyone" unless we are careful with it. Unless we are responsible with it. And I absolutely have nothing against expressing opinions or criticisms. We grow if we have an open-enough mind to listen to the opinions and criticisms of other people. Doesn´t mean we have to believe it all, but to take what others say and weigh it against our own thoughts and beliefs does make a person grow.

Of course I would not stand by and do nothing if I saw anybody being unjustly abused. I agree...censorship can definitely lead to dictatorship....but, once again, for the sake of the "freedoms of everyone" sometimes censorship should be a good thing. For instance...do you want your children seeing certain things on tv or on the newstand that is not appropriate for their eyes?

I´m not really talking about opinions and criticisms in my statement....I thought the issue was throwing insults ....

There is no throwing insults here or most of the time there has not been.

It is just some people think that different opinions are insult to them and the like to ´ban´ those ideas rather than coming up with the ideas they think it is right..

Have you seen any insult here by yourself?

do you think you grew up enough to be able to digest?

i think most people who cant stand a slightest critism arent grown up really. there are many on this site.

shall i include you there?

 who grewed you up? amerikan linguists?

Okay, just to clarify....I did come into a conversation and expressed my opinions about freedom without really having enough experience on these forums to have any real hard evidence that there were insults going around. I really haven´t experienced any insults...just lots of opinions....lots of opinions ... but that´s a good thing!! I´ve enjoyed reading other people´s opinions and I think I´ve learned from them!

I guess the reason I said something is that it seems that when it comes to someone´s country/national anthem/flag/patriotism....those things go alot deeper into the heart/loyalty/passion/purpose of people...that I just think we need to be a little more cautious when we approach those subjects. Many times things like religion and patriotism give people a purpose in life. Those are things that are usually close and dear to the heart of people. And a person´s country is like their family.

So, I apologize if I spoke out of turn...my statement was ONLY based on that one thread where it began...that´s all.

I think we have discussed this many times..

Even NOW Our president says that ´we have to look at inside the borders for our KURDISH PROBLEM´

The entire foreign elements were invented by the generals and nationalists to unite people for a ´common enemy´. This is a very well known tactic and people in Turkey is not buying it anymore..

I have never supported any terrorist bombings here. It is just your assumption that if a person talks about ´kurdish rights´ that person MUST BE SUPPORTING TERRORISM..

I explained hundered times here why we have lost 40 to 70 thousands people..The main reason of course not accepting that ´it was not a foreign thing..It was internal and it was caused bu our TURKISH nationalism´  

About Ataturk...Where did you see me supporting sheria driven primitive medi evil sultanate?

Again, you are jumping into conlusion that is someone says ´Ataturk was a dictator in his time -when you look at him with today´s values- and he might have lied´, that person must be hating Ataturk and supporting the sultanate..Eh? This is what I call ´seeing  Ataturk as  semi god´. Ataturk himself was against all the gods!!!!!

About Yazicioglu , He was a murderer and a fascist like his dear friend ´Abdullah Catli´. Please do not force me to come back here with the list of Turkish people he was involved in their murder..

I dont have an anger at all about my beautiful Turkey at all. I love it into pieces so as my friends..This is my country and apart from her nationalists I am so proud of it..

But of course, because of  some of Turks´ nationalism extends itself to racism, we will not stop loving our country.

That was the way it is in the past  and that will be the way it will be..  

 oh, welkum to the klub! we will grow you more

Thank you for one fantastic! though

I agree with you about ´lots of opinion is good´. But unfortunately, it is not the case for some people here..

That is the reason They would love ´NOT TO HEAR DIFFERENT OPINIONS´. They would like some of the ideas are being ´supressed´..

Regarding ´country/national anthem/flag/patriotism´ going into some people more deeper than others, I would agree that..It is definately the case for some..A young boy kills a british fan in Taksim square in Istanbul ´ he says that he did it for his country; his mom speaks to the TV that she is proud of her son´. A young boys kills Turkish journalist Hrant Dink. He says that ´he did it for his country/flag/patriotism and screams that he is a Turkish nationalist´, some of the army generals form illegal organizations and do everything -including killing thousands of innocent kurds/Turks - to keep the war going in southeast of Turkey, they say that they did everything for -country/national anthem/flag/patriotism-..

Basically, in Turkey we dont want that type of patriotism.. We dont call it patriotism..

I will also say  that anthems and flags are made up things ... true. Patriotism is not made up...it is the love/honor/loyalty of a person to their country. The flags and anthems are simply symbols that represent that patriotism...however, there is also history in a flag (and anthem) so the symbols go deep and hold lots of meaning for people!

I totally agree with you...it is not patriotism, it is more like  Individualism and also perhaps very radical. Just because people do things in the name of "patriotism" doesn´t make it patriotism.

In Turkey it is much more like the desire of Totalitarianism. 

 And typicaly, anybody who disagrees with them is being labeled as ´non-patriotic´, by those individuals who are so whole heartedly embraced the state official explanations and idealogies of the state. And according to them those ideas opposing the official explanations of the events must be banned..

I see ... I didn´t know or understand this before.

 lol have you said that handsom about the Turkish anthem ?! lol

What would you expect an anthem to say if not praise the country and the people with proud too?!

For example, what would you expect people who pay their blood in the battle field to say ?

As i remember you were/ are also against ´´ happy who is Turk ´´ ...yes ?!

What would you expect a Turk to say then ?

Happy who is American, brit, French ..?!

Again Turk are sons and daughters of Türkiye, not a race

We have similar saying too ´´if im not an Egyptian, i would loved to be an Egyptian´´

Being proud of who you are isnt something bad, is it ?!

Same also our National anthem praise our nation and our people, what would it praise then ?!

My country, my country, my country.
You have my love and my heart.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! O mother of all lands,
My hope and my ambition,
And on all people
Your Nile has countless graces

My country, my country, my country,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! Most precious jewel,
Shining on the brow of eternity!
O my homeland, be for ever free,
Safe from every foe!

My homeland, my homeland, my homeland,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! Noble are your children,
Loyal, and guardians of the reins.
It will attain high aspirations
With their unity and with mine.

My homeland, my homeland, my homeland,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´, land of bounties
You ruled with ancient glory
My purpose is to repel the enemy
And on God I rely.
 

And as for the dead people, you dont show respect to the person...there is no more person handsom, he already died, you show respect to the death of that person.

To the idea that he is no longer here .

Ýts part of our culture and surely you are aware of it very well because its also yours

Not everything belong to our culture is a bad thing handsom !

You can show your disapproval with him later, but not at the same moment that person died !

Btw handsom, do you find anything  about Türkiye, Turks, traditions..etc that you like at all ?! Seems to me in your opinions, all are wrong and should be changed !

Just wondering !

Adana, aren´t you exaggerating here? How do you want to compare which nation´s history was worse or which nation was more heroic? Taken that The Netherlads are way smaller than Poland what´s your plan? To use percentages? each nation has been through wars, each had to protect its boundaries, each has moments of glory and moments of failure.

As for the anthem, it´s not the anthem that´s holy. You are free to criticise it. Some people are proud of what it represents, the history behind it but it´s not like the country is based ON the song. You may mock it, come up with silly lyrics and still feel confident about where you come from. Just think, all those who died, died so that you could live a happy life without facing a trial for making fun of the anthem. They died so that you could live in a better, freer country. No song is going to change it. You mentioned Bogurodzica - it is surely a religious song, does it mean I have to respect a song although I am an atheist? Should I consider it a representation of my ideas, a definition of who I am? I don´t think so. Surely I appreciate its historical value in linguistic terms but that´s it. Why do people choose to respect symbols over other people?

There are no universal national values, for the simple reason that nation is made up of PEOPLE and people have their own ideas, beliefs and subjective perception of the world. That´s why we should be free to express our opinions about everything and everyone. Any idea is valid as long as it is accounted for. Nobody forces you to agree with other people. It is possible to disagree and still respect each other.

Ý was planning to give my 2 pennies in short after reading the thread overall, i should have known better, visiting TLC always takes more time than expected lol

Ok overall i agree with some here and disagree with some.

Ý agree with Jan on somethings and also agree with cat at another things.

Of course there are culture differnces, and what is acceptable to some, not acceptable to others

What can be seen as freedom of speech to some, can be seen as crossing the lines to others with degrees.

What can be seen by some as crap and they are glad they have changed their concept about it, can be seen by others as a respectable concepts and they do NOT want to change it to something else.

They are convinced by what they believe and dont want to change it

As you may see that is wrong and should be changed, they also see what you believe is wrong too.

Judging this as crap actually isnt a right of anyone at all

As it is not my right to judge those who have change in their concepts or those who have another concept to begin with.

Taking that thread of helicopter crash as an example.

A man died, and Sui wanted to share his feelings here with us, sad and worried ´before his death confirmed´ so first thing to say...well he deserved, he was such a bad guy ?!

By any mean is this acceptable ?!

To us..nope

Debate being carried away, and some try to make that clear that we should respect the dead, the man blood wasnt even dried yet !

So would the answer be that is a stupid tradition to respect the dead and its crap ?!

Ý dont think so !

We have differences in culture and we are all aware of that...as you demand others to have a space of freedom in the speech and to differentiate between criticism and expression one opinion and insults

Would it be that hard to respect also the concepts, traditions  of others too ?!

Somethings you see like freedom of speech in other culture its crossing the lines, exactly at in that thread

Respecting the dead!

Our traditions maybe strange to some of you, some dont understand, some dont want to understand, other think its nonsense and they are happy they dont believe in them any more but its not like that to us

Ýf we REALLY dont believe in them we wouldnt demanding to respect them, mutual respect.

Numbers of Turks and Easterns here are not much, not as same as Westerns, so their voices are not as stronger as Westerns too, but that doesnt mean what they believe and think is wrong and what Westerns believe and think is right.

Ým sorry that i had to use those 2 words which cause lots of arguments before but the case is culture differences

Like it or not, we have it, not only here at TLC but in the outside world too.

Hopefully we can sort our things here at TLC and reach some sort of understanding between us.

Ok that is more than 2 pennies...and im running out of time, see you guys !

very very well put (the whole post) I agree +10000000000

I dont think you understand me really..

I said my mational anthem, somehow, contains some racists remarks. Well maybe all national anthems contains some racist remarks..I dont know others in details ..

But I dont find being proud of your race is very heathly thing really.. When someone talks to me ´how proud because he is as an english´ I always raise my eye brow in the UK..

You can think it is normal to be proud of your race but it is not for me..Sorry..

And yes..I was against the saying ´ne mutlu Turkum diyene´.. And I explained why..I said that ´Turk´ in that saying unfortunately does not imply of citizenship but a race. And because a country should be able to embrace the other ethinicities, it is not right..And in the end, it is not what it is we-Turks- say it is..it is how it is percieved by the other ethnic minorities..Unfortunately they think that the  word ´turk´ refers to a race in that saying  (because of the very same word refers to a race/ethnicity in many many sayings). And when you think of the nationalists screaming those words into other ethnic minorities in Turkey, the minorities dont like it..(btw..the AKP government decided to remove -ne mutlu Turkum diyene- writings in the mountains of kurdish areas. did you know that? why do you think they have decided to remove them? )

If you were right the government is doing a something  wrong..But unfortunately, you are not right..But I am..

I am going to repeat one more time..TURK as a word refers to an ethnicity in most cases... We turks should not lie to ourselves on this issue...In the end it is not what we say it means..but how they percieve it is..and they percieve it as ethnicity..

That is the bottom line..

You can be proud of anything you like..

If you are proud of your race, I will keep my right to critisize it (If I dont, I  can not explain why I am not a racist)..

That is another bottom line..

Lets dont go into that dead person thing please.. I really dont want to talk about it anymore.. But I think, again, you did not understand..If you were a person from Chile (the country in South America and their famous dictator was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet) would you forgive him when he died? or would you be critisizing  people who were NOT sorry beacuse he died?

You can say that yes..you would critisize them because the dictator is dead now and they should respect him..And you can call it a good tradition..

theH despite animosity among us can you tell me why do you keep on referring to Pinochet?Just curiosity))

Sui was praising a guy who was a well known fascist and associated with killings of some people (They were killed beacuse of their religion, because of their political orientations)

Nobody has said ´well he deserved´..that is just your perception and understanding!!

You understand that way..That is the cultural difference..(and that cultural difference is nothing to do with east and west!!!)

Of course my parents are Polish although they have eastern roots too. I do consider myself a patriot for all it matters. I love my country but I do not love it blindly. I see its drawbacks and things that should be changed. The fact that I am proud of our past and I am grateful to my ancestors for all they did to make my life better doesn´t mean I have the right to tell other people what to think. The idea is everybody chooses what they want to believe in or follow. If somebody doesn´t feel like it, it´s their choice and their right to do so. If somebody feels he´d be better off under occupation - it´s their thing.

The universals that you talk about - God, honour and homeland - are not so universal after all, be it for people´s religious beliefs, broad and subjective understanding of "honour" and the idea of homeland.

I do agree it´s a shame if a country´s president mixes up the words of the anthem but he´s a mockery of president as well. Yet, the majority elected him, should that oblige me to respect him? To respect his ideas? Never.

Let me also differ in the perception of what classifies as bravery during WWII. Pain and courage cannot be compared. Polish messianism? Please...unless you´re referring to our stereotypical faults - we´re big-headed and quarrelsome. 40 million nation of grumpy armchair critics putting JPII on their banners and feeling deeply offended if other nations remain neutral about him, not to mention those who dare to criticise him. That´s pathetic of us.

Why not? They both killed their own country men with the pretext of nationalism by accusing the others whom they killed as traitors. (the difference is the numbers of people they killed)

 both u mean?????

and castro and che, and trocki  qualify into your perception also?help me to understand ur track of thinking

 Along with Sui, Jan, and chiko who happened to be also Easterns and Turk ?!

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_39961_-1

Let me use that same statment of yours reply to you.

Ýt express cultural differences indeed which has NOTHÝNG to do with East and West !

Ps: will reply to the other post later when i have enough time.

Are there those that actually agree with me...that Freedom, not only comes at a price, but has a responsibility with it? It would be nice to hear

 Kiara..you are too sweet for TC....u remind me in my first incarnation))))))))))Freedom is choices,choices according to your inner self..true one..not always visible in virtual reality)))

Btw..welcome)))

very nice of you to say. Thanks for your welcome! I´m totally enjoying myself here in the forums and also in the classes...learning the language! This site has really really helped me!!

Well, I´m off to watch LOST....I´ll check back later!

 WONDERFUL POST CANLI.

WHAT CAN ý SAY ELSE.

BRAVO!!!

when turkish army were bombing PKK camps, u were very angry. and when all turkey is praying for our soldiars, u were worrying about terrorists. one of your friends who came here with different nicknames (once he was gernas) and supported ur ideas told that "you ( turkish army) will not win, u will be lost in these mountains" . can you tell me what kind of love is this? if you dont like any pieces of our values dont wait me believe you that u love this country. coz u are already out of these values. u can have turkish name but u are not a part of this country. there are thousands of ppl like you who has turkish name but couldnt be a part of this country. if you cant tolerate and respect any national value of this country, as millions of turkish ppl can die for these values, u cant say u love this country. of course u love these lands but not like us, u love these lands like an armenian or greek...

u are talking about a list. I think there is only u who has a list of died ppl. it s easy to accuse someone. I can prepare a list and accuse whoever I want. dont be funny.

Nationalism is not a bad thing, do you think there is not nationalism in europe???

have u ever been in a foreign office in europe??? have u ever tried to speak with another language in official place in an europen country?

When Turkish army was bombing the mountains in northern Iraq for the zillionst time, of course I was opposing  it. 

Becasue, it would not finish the war!! DID IT FINISH? NO..

Thinking that we would finish the war by going into Northen Iraq was  A HUGE MISTAKE, and It would not bring peace to my country..

AND I WAS RIGHT.

IT DID NOT BRING ANY PEACE!!

Apart from that mistake, I was also against it because because of the mentality while doing it:

Almost all the papers, all generals, all nationalists were becoming kind blood thirsty non human things. ´We want them dead, we want blood, we killed 200, 500, 1000´. Because all the rethorics turning into nationalists_in_war manifestations during those times. And they are not any help for the peace at all..

Contrary, everything is turning  into a conflict with more blood in it.

That is a cycle. 

Some of people do not want that war to be finished and you are helping them!! That war could have been finished ages and ages ago but it took all those years..

Yes you can have a Turkish name..BUT with your support for war and failing to understand what the reason was for that war, you betrayed your own counry!!! What good your loving will do if you support the ideas of more blood of your own citizens!! What good will ´your desire to see more people dead´  bring apart from splitting my country!!

You can claim that you are part of that country but you are not..It does not matter that you say you are. 

The values you are talking about are NOT values of my country not the values of Turks.. 

u love these lands like an armenian or greek...

I have no comment on your above words what so ever..So an Armenian like H Dink can not love Turkey as you do? That is the reason he was killed by a nationalist..eh? So a kurd can not love Turkey as you do? because he/she is a kurd?

As far as Yazicioglu is concerned, check where he was during Kahramanmaras massacare, check where he was during Sivas madimak incident, check who was the person threatened the police years ago with 150 bombs in Ankara if his beloved racist, killer friend Abdullah Catli was not released from the police custady; check H Dink killers´ association with his  party, check the people of Malatya incident and their association with his party.

Nationalism in Europe? Of course there is. But I always said that in Turkey there has been a very thin line between nationalism and racism..

As far as the language concerned, yes..If you dont speak English for example, Hospitals provide translaters in the uk..And all the leaflets are printed in different languages..But so what? States must provide services to every person and they are trying to do it..(though I can not understand what it is got to do with the topic.)

 Great post Canli

It´s never going to happen.  Much as I love a good argument here, lately people take it far too seriously  - the fact is that those people you address this post to will always think of you as uneducated imbeciles and of themselves as the wise, all knowing, free-thinking ones.

yes u are right. it didnt finish terrorism. guess why?

coz we couldnt reach their camps. we were about to finish it all but USA warned turkey. this movements towards camps suddenly stopped, everybody suprised. Because PKK is a weapon of USA against turkey.  they didnt want turkey finish it coz whenever turkey didnt allow USA army to use our lands, terrorists attacks started. I dont believe their terrorism will finish if turkey do everything what kurdish ppl want.

That type of operation will never finish the terrorism and our kurdish problem.

The same operation has been done more than 25 times. 

But somehow, they STILL manage to convice people that ´they will finish this time´ 

Well you keep believing..

MWAAAAAAAH!!!!

 that statement God-Honor-Homeland made me reconsider my patriotic feelings once (used seeing them on walls). thanks to these three words im no more patriotic.