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Denial versus freedom of speech
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| 30. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 04:49 pm |
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Based on what you wrote we are facing yet another Jewish problem in the heart of Europe and all we need is another Hitler to tame those subhuman critters.
Now that I am wrong and I don´t know those problematic countrymen of mine would you let us know the source of that poll or whatever it is that labeled an entire population and and entire religious community.
You never think of those people as humans don´t you? These people are men, women, children and babies just as you are. Not all of them can be illegal in your country. They were hired by Dutch companies who sought cheap employment for positions looked down upon by your aloof countrymen. People of befitting education and background applied to those jobs and voila, we don´t want to see those toilet cleaners around. You should invest more in the robotic technology to avoid such unwanted consequences.
Though it is mainly your problem not ours the 1 in 16 is may look awful to you but it is probably not that way to your entrepreneurs who are playing for high stakes in the international markets. They generate a GNP far exceeding most countries on Earth increasing the standards in the country. These leaves behind some dirty work to be taken care of which could only be offered to those guest arbeiters. Apart from cleaning your toilets they entertain you by enriching your slang vocabulary. In Germany, they call those riff raff as cock roaches or black heads. God knows how many more words you have in your beloved Dutch.
Wherever you look, there is racism undercover...
Quoting Trudy
Ah yes. And to avoid the upcoming of that type of Islam and not to disturb those ´friendly´ people all others need to be quiet and shut up? I don´t think so, that would be bowing for dictatorship. Besides, if you think that type of Islam is typical for Iran c.s. you´re wrong and you don´t know your own countrymen. Loads of Islamic immigrants here (we mainly have Turks and Moroccons, around 1,1 million on a population of 16,4) responded ´Iranesque´ with cursing and deathwishes, there are quite some cells here that does not exists of people chatting about the weather and knitting sweaters.... Strange eh, that when silenced (or an attempt to) in ones own country people are suspicious and not very open anymore?
Edited (6/1/2009) by vineyards
Edited (6/1/2009) by vineyards
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| 31. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 06:10 pm |
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Based on what you wrote we are facing yet another Jewish problem in the heart of Europe and all we need is another Hitler to tame those subhuman critters.
Now that I am wrong and I don´t know those problematic countrymen of mine would you let us know the source of that poll or whatever it is that labeled an entire population and and entire religious community.
You never think of those people as humans don´t you? These people are men, women, children and babies just as you are. Not all of them can be illegal in your country. They were hired by Dutch companies who sought cheap employment for positions looked down upon by your aloof countrymen. People of befitting education and background applied to those jobs and voila, we don´t want to see those toilet cleaners around. You should invest more in the robotic technology to avoid such unwanted consequences.
Though it is mainly your problem not ours the 1 in 16 is may look awful to you but it is probably not that way to your entrepreneurs who are playing for high stakes in the international markets. They generate a GNP far exceeding most countries on Earth increasing the standards in the country. These leaves behind some dirty work to be taken care of which could only be offered to those guest arbeiters. Apart from cleaning your toilets they entertain you by enriching your slang vocabulary. In Germany, they call those riff raff as cock roaches or black heads. God knows how many more words you have in your beloved Dutch.
Wherever you look, there is racism undercover...
You can call me a racist, I don´t mind, I know who is saying it. But it would surely suit you to leave that ´victimising´ attitude behind.
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| 32. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 07:06 pm |
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Based on what you wrote we are facing yet another Jewish problem in the heart of Europe and all we need is another Hitler to tame those subhuman critters.
Now that I am wrong and I don´t know those problematic countrymen of mine would you let us know the source of that poll or whatever it is that labeled an entire population and and entire religious community.
You never think of those people as humans don´t you? These people are men, women, children and babies just as you are. Not all of them can be illegal in your country. They were hired by Dutch companies who sought cheap employment for positions looked down upon by your aloof countrymen. People of befitting education and background applied to those jobs and voila, we don´t want to see those toilet cleaners around. You should invest more in the robotic technology to avoid such unwanted consequences.
Though it is mainly your problem not ours the 1 in 16 is may look awful to you but it is probably not that way to your entrepreneurs who are playing for high stakes in the international markets. They generate a GNP far exceeding most countries on Earth increasing the standards in the country. These leaves behind some dirty work to be taken care of which could only be offered to those guest arbeiters. Apart from cleaning your toilets they entertain you by enriching your slang vocabulary. In Germany, they call those riff raff as cock roaches or black heads. God knows how many more words you have in your beloved Dutch.
Wherever you look, there is racism undercover...
Quoting Trudy
Ah yes. And to avoid the upcoming of that type of Islam and not to disturb those ´friendly´ people all others need to be quiet and shut up? I don´t think so, that would be bowing for dictatorship. Besides, if you think that type of Islam is typical for Iran c.s. you´re wrong and you don´t know your own countrymen. Loads of Islamic immigrants here (we mainly have Turks and Moroccons, around 1,1 million on a population of 16,4) responded ´Iranesque´ with cursing and deathwishes, there are quite some cells here that does not exists of people chatting about the weather and knitting sweaters.... Strange eh, that when silenced (or an attempt to) in ones own country people are suspicious and not very open anymore?
Vineyards, I think you are absolutely right about the situation of guest workers in Europe, but I don´t think that this is what Trudy was talking about. I think that she was talking about an extreme form of Islam that is concentrated in Europe, and which has a track record of some quite appaling behavior. I think that we should all recognize the problems among Muslim minorities and demand some things to change. And at the same time we can address the problem of racism as well, but I firmly believe that the radicals and fanatics in Europe are only fueling a new form of racism against Muslims, and if we do not honestly address the legitimate problems that these extremists in Europe present, there is no way to solve the racism.What do you think about Muslim protesters in Europe with flags "death to those who insult Islam"? or people like that guy who brutally murdered Theo van Gogh? These are really legitimate problems with Muslims in Europe..
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| 33. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 07:25 pm |
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Trudy, Catwoman,
... then we need to choose our vocabulary considerately.
Not all Turks are Islamist radicals, as a matter of fact an overwhelming majority or them are not.
Even in Iran, a lot of people are not bigots. True they suffer the consequences of a crippled vision offered to them but there it is the ruling class who are radicals.
We keep hearing this minority problem in Europe. I have confidence, it is very difficult for an illegal emmigrant to survive in Europe with all those measures and restrictions. Europe consciously imported this labor force and wanted to get rid of them after it was too late. This is not our problem; I don´t even consider the third generation of Turks as our own citizens or people. Just like there are Poles, Danes in the US, they have become a marginal community within the countries they are settled.
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| 34. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 07:53 pm |
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Today, there was a Turkish day parade in Austrian capital. Turkish people living in the country marched through designated streets with Turkish flags in their hands. Such parades are meant for celebrating friendship between countries. The Austrian people harassed the group by dropping nylon bags full of water, urine and human excrement on the crowd.
These people must really have long toes...
When Muslim/Turkish/Arab people mock about Christians I´ve never heard of groups in western countries demonstrating in the streets, burning flags, attacking embassies etc. People in the ´West´ shrug and think ´they´re mad´. Is it really a question of long toes?
Edited (6/1/2009) by vineyards
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| 35. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 08:09 pm |
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catwoman said: You are entitled to have this opinion, just like others are as well to have theirs... I think that it´s really sad that some people do not understand why someone would draw and publish these cartoons.
Gee thank you...I can have my opinion? The same can be said on the other side. They don´t understand why such things would be done. It´s the lack of understanding that IS the problem.
catwoman said: Maybe it´s cultural incompetence? Lack of respect/understanding of other people´s culture?
Exactty the same could also be said of the Westerners. To me it appears they ("Westerners" being the dominant culture both in economics and military might) are acting like cultural bullies...a very immature and one of the least charming aspects of childish behaviour.
catwoman said: It seems to be something of that sort, which means that they are acting like little children who expect to be taken care of, as opposed to doing their part in the process of gaining mutual understanding/respect..
Are you serious? What respect are you talking about? I don´t think the cartoons had any intention of promoting respect. The intent was to poke fun, belittle, demonize....not provoke respect.
For the record, I don´t approve of any type of cartoon that belittles others and trivializes their beliefs. That type of action is counter productive in the extreme. What it does is provoke many times irrational, defensive behaviour and incite hatred.
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| 36. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 08:29 pm |
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These people must really have long toes...
Yep, that´s disgusting. Unfortunately Austria doesn´t have a good name when it comes to (recent) politic views - remember FPÖ of Jörg Haider?
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| 37. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 08:49 pm |
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You are entitled to have this opinion, just like others are as well to have theirs... I think that it´s really sad that some people do not understand why someone would draw and publish these cartoons. Maybe it´s cultural incompetence? Lack of respect/understanding of other people´s culture? It seems to be something of that sort, which means that they are acting like little children who expect to be taken care of, as opposed to doing their part in the process of gaining mutual understanding/respect..
You can acknowledge that there was harm done - in your opinion - by the cartoons, but it would be desirable if you and poeple who agree with you could understand the other side, instead of objectifying and demonizing them in simplistic ways.
Actually my dear cat we understood alright
People from other believes belittle ours make fun of it and targeting our prophet in a very low way.
Freedom of speech ?
Hmmm, would anyone consider it freedom of speech if others called him stupid ,..etc or would you rather call it insult ?!
Ãn this point i dont get it, what should i exactly ralay it on culture differences ?!
You mean, i should consider it common in Western culture for people to insult their prophets and others should accept it and consider it as freedom of speech ?!
Ãf so, then pardon me, how can you believe in someone and you insult him ?!!!
Ãf you do this in your culture, we dont do this in ours, actually its not logic that i insult something and at same time i be devoted and believe in it/ him !
Beside, we dont force people to believe in our religion, we dont insult or attack other people´s religions, so by no way i get it, why people attack or criticise ours
They dont like, fine, stay away from it, let´s believe what we like to believe and you believe what you wish to believe.
´We have our believes and you have yours ´ simple as that !
But you insult our believes and consider it freedom of speech ?!
Ãnsult is an insult...that is what we understand...and thank god for that ÃMO !
PS: ´you´ is a general term
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| 38. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 08:55 pm |
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In my country denial of the Holocaust is punishable by law. Denying that horrible event is according to the law an immense insult and a form of discrimination. These days there is a discussion in parliament about it. Should it be allowed to say the Holocaust never happened because freedom of speech is more valuable than the denial and people should be able to speak up their minds without limitation? Parties, politicians and others fight each other about it. During my travels I´ve met some people all over the world who did deny it, maybe because they were not too smart, maybe because they´re antisemite, I don´t know.
I have two questions for you:
Is the denial of the Holocaust also forbidden and punishable by law in your country?
If so, should it stay that way or do you think that freedom of speech is more important?
No its not.
Denial of god is not punishable by law but denial of the Holocaust is punishable by law in many of the Western countries, isnt that irony ?!  lol
à have a question for you
Arabs are semite
So why when attacking them or even more ...it doesnt considered to be antisemite like it is with jewish?
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| 39. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 08:59 pm |
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Actually my dear cat we understood alright
People from other believes belittle ours make fun of it and targeting our prophet in a very low way.
Freedom of speech ?
Hmmm, would anyone consider it freedom of speech if others called him stupid ,..etc or would you rather call it insult ?!
Ãn this point i dont get it, what should i exactly ralay it on culture differences ?!
You mean, i should consider it common in Western culture for people to insult their prophets and others should accept it and consider it as freedom of speech ?!
Ãf so, then pardon me, how can you believe in someone and you insult him ?!!!
Ãf you do this in your culture, we dont do this in ours, actually its not logic that i insult something and at same time i be devoted and believe in it/ him !
Beside, we dont force people to believe in our religion, we dont insult or attack other people´s religions, so by no way i get it, why people attack or criticise ours
They dont like, fine, stay away from it, let´s believe what we like to believe and you believe what you wish to believe.
´We have our believes and you have yours ´ simple as that !
But you insult our believes and consider it freedom of speech ?!
Ãnsult is an insult...that is what we understand...and thank god for that ÃMO !
PS: ´you´ is a general term
No? What about the impossibility of building churches / holding a Christian servive in quite some Arab countries? What about the denial of many Muslims of the Holocaust? What about the 58/66% Turks (see topic ´Survey´ that don´t want to live next door to a Christian/Jew? What about the demand of some countries (e.g. S.A., Iran) that visitors should dress according to their beliefs?
Turn it otherwise, dear Canli, what if in ´Western´ countries mosques were forbidden? What if people say I don´t want to live next door to a Muslim? (Yes, it happens, also in my country, and if they act like they think - no renting a flat to one or so - they´re punished because of discrimination). What if in other countries ALL Islamic dresscode is formidden, from burka via djellabah to headscarf, everywhere, also on the streets? If that happened, the world is too small for protests from Muslims. (And right they are.) Just don´t pretend to be so human, so kind because you very well know there are loads of things wrong.
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| 40. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 09:00 pm |
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When Muslim/Turkish/Arab people mock about Christians I´ve never heard of groups in western countries demonstrating in the streets, burning flags, attacking embassies etc. People in the ´West´ shrug and think ´they´re mad´. Is it really a question of long toes?
à havet heard/seen cartoon or something alike about Ãsa ´SA´ Jesus made by Muslims/Arabs/Turks...is there ?!
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