In my country denial of the Holocaust is punishable by law. Denying that horrible event is according to the law an immense insult and a form of discrimination. These days there is a discussion in parliament about it. Should it be allowed to say the Holocaust never happened because freedom of speech is more valuable than the denial and people should be able to speak up their minds without limitation? Parties, politicians and others fight each other about it. During my travels I´ve met some people all over the world who did deny it, maybe because they were not too smart, maybe because they´re antisemite, I don´t know.

I have two questions for you:

Is the denial of the Holocaust also forbidden and punishable by law in your country?

If so, should it stay that way or do you think that freedom of speech is more important?

 If people deny the Holocaust as in freedom of speech to say so is one thing but for them to believe that that is the case is another.  I am not sure it should be punishable by law, what would be gained? Is it enough that these people make themselves look stupid when it is a proven fact and there are living survivors?? 

A law has been rejected in the UK, because of the freedom of speech aspect, but it is widely legislated through much of Europe.

Trudy, you see sometimes, some matters are given an exception status and the Holocaust is one of them. In order to guarantee that everyone pays homage to its victims even the freedom of speech has been stretched a little bit. The whole incident is something that still hurts the conscience of Europe. Many thing right or wrong were done in order to make up for the pain inflicted on European Jewry and that includes the creation of Israel on somebody else´s land. If we take the reason for all those laws were made as our basis, we must also not let people curse Islam, mock its prophet by way of those silly cartoons that they are so proud of. After all, that shows, there are indeed limitations on the freedom of speech, you can´t enjoy this right at the expense of others´ hurt feelings.

After all it is still the same old world populated by the herds of those three - four prophets. All evil is committed in their name and somehow we never learn to regret. There is a universal rule that could guide us: politeness. Unfortunately, no one takes heed of it.

In Poland it´s illegal to deny Holocaust, just as it´s illegal to promote nazism, fascism or communism. It stems from the rule that it is illegal to promote hatered. Still, there is a communist party in Poland, they haven´t been in the parliament since ´89 (when communism came down) but they are in favour of communistic economy, not state

Sorry Vineyards, I disagree with you at one point: comparing the Holocaust with mocking cartoons is comparing Istanbul with Kemaliye.

For the record I think holocaust denial is wrong but I´m not so sure about an actual law.....shouldn´t we have a right to ask questions.... we know it was true, so the truth will show. I would perfer to have all the facts available and to make an informed decision. This law kind of enters the realm of thought crime which is terribly hard to police especially in a system that is already so corrupt

They say 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust and if you say where is the proof, you are usually attacked on suspicion that you are a Holocaust denier. I have nothing to say about the magnitude and gravity of these string of incidents which we collectively call as the Holocaust. There is however a need for freely asking questions and to refuse some of the answers when you are not quite satisfied about their accuracy.

There are other tragic incidents in history (not necessarily comparable) which are very well documented and undeniable. For example, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagazaki were two such events. You don´t even need to deny them because it is perfectly legal to sing praises of the virtues of killing one hundred thousand people in one go and maiming several folds more of them while dooming generations to suffer the consequences of the radiactive emission. You are free to go to any forum on the net and openly defend the bombings. You may even be harassed if you take sides with the Japs. After all, the US government has never officially apoligized to the families of the victims and sufferers.

As for the comparison between the Mohammad cartoons and the Holocaust. A principle is a principle. The law does not allow people committing smaller offenses to walk away. If you kill one person you usually get a life sentence. If you kill one million people, you still get the same punishment because the principles are the same. This is plain truth just like both Istanbul and Kemaliye are essentially towns of different sizes.

We are not talking about a couple of Muslim types who can be corrected by showing a few cartoons to them.  We are talking in billions when we refer to the Muslims.  Daydreamer explains the basis of the restrictions against the Holocaust denial in her country around the principle of preventing the spreading of hatred. Well,  aren´t these people spreading hatred among more than a billion people elsewhere and contributing to the hatred between civilizations and aren´t they using the excuse of free speech as a cover?

P.S.  Nazis killed a total of 46 million Russians 18 million of which were innocent civilians who fell victim to a mentality that regarded communists as subhuman creatures. This was also a holocaust, the fact that Russia was a big country and eventually  struck back doesn´t change the nature of the incident.

Today, no one remembers the sacrifices of the Red Army and of (Soviet) Russian people in general.

Actually, the mocking cartoons (and the adamant justification/denial is one of the stages towards Genocide....a Holocast....it dehumanizes, mocks and belittles  "others"....concentrating on the "otherness"....going down the trail to dehumanization of the "other" group.

I don´t think making a law punishable be jail time and fines is the answer, that just causes things to go underground where they fester.

Anyway, for what it´s worth, I think every war is a holocaust.

Alameda, what is more saddening is that common people have been agitated enough to jump on the band wagon of hatred without ever thinking about the consequences. The streets everywhere are full of people who have turned this into a football like fanaticism. Everybody is talking about us and them. It is no surprize that this system keeps eradicating those defending peace and advancement (John Lennon, Kennedy, Bhuttos).

You certainly remember several episodes in our near history when the hopes of peace and brotherhood kept people together. After all those years, we have falcons and neocons running us the Hitler style.

 The thought you find these cartoons as bad as the Holocaust, where people were murdered, tortured and used as guinee pigs for awful medical experiments I find sickening.

Trudy, it is wrong to assume that Alameda is trying to find other incidents matching the magnitude of  the Holocaust. Both she and I are trying to find just other examples which are still going unnoticed no matter how small or how big. Man some of them are actually quite big events.

Have you seen the pictures taken in US POW camps? Although we have access to the uncensored ones, they are still apalling. These incident have happened only recently in a society where people have better means compared to 60 years ago. All these people fell to the hands of the butchers who talk about democracy, civilization and freedom.

You never said a word about 18 million unarmed Soviet people who were butchered by Nazis pretty much the same way.

Sorry that I wasn´t clear, but to me the Holocaust is more than ´just´ 6 million Jews, to me it is also the gypsies, gays, political opponents, and ideed the Russian who were butchered.

No, I haven´t seen the pictures - on purpose - but I´ve read about them and yes, I do find that horrible. I do find the guys who did that, including the leaders (no, ´Ich habe es nicht gewüsst - I didn´t know) awful, psychopathic and first in line to be judged and sentenced.

But I still object to the fact that whatever horrible happened there in the POW-camps, or how many people felt insulted/hurt by the cartoons, or other examples that one can compare it (or even name it in the same sentence) with the Holocaust. To me, maybe I´m a bit sentimental in that regarding my fathers history, it sounds just a little too much as trivializing the horrors of 1933-1945.

Trudy, many of us have been deeply effected by WWII....and WWI. ...many who lived through it are still alive.  IOW it is still very much in living memory.  I have seen the tatoos, the schrapnel in flesh, heard crys of  nightmares, seen photos of missing relatives, helped dry tears.......I have known people who were in concentration camps......Jews and Roma in particular.

Holocausts do not come out of a vacuum, there are stages to them.  It´s like getting the flu, first you don´t really feel quite well....immediate attention and care to the system is needed.  If not rapidly attended to  you can be overcome with fever, which goes into your lungs and you die.  If you are careful in your conduct (that is washing your hands, fortifying your system, not getting run down) , you may avoid it.

Hate speech, that is the demonizing whole groups of people, making fun of them, belittling them.....IS one of the stages towards genocide/holocaust. ....and we want to prevent another holoaust.  It is only in recognizing (not denying)  the signs that we can do that.

Politicians and intellectuals have so different agendas  then real nations´s agendas,and  they using to history´s bad events for make stronger their positions or chairs while real nations only looking for more peace,more freedom and more friendship and more justice.Ý belive real nations´s agendas full with hopes about future while Politicians and intellectuals scrabbling  in history´s dumps,and thats really strange they doin that under name of more democracy...

I think there´s a huge difference between denying something that has already happened and commenting on recent events be it by means of articles, cartoons or public speeches. Everybody´s free to talk about Holocaust and so everybody should be free to talk about acts of terrorism. It is known who is responsible for Holocaust and we know who was responsible for the terrorism that cartoon portrayed. Not letting people talk about it would be like forbidding to accuse Nazists of Holocaust.

The cartoons portrayed Muslims as a group in a very negative manner....one in particular had the basic creed of Islam and what was supposed to have been a protrayal of the Prophet of Islam (saw),  neither of which were responsible for the terrorist attacks.  They were designed to belittle and  provoke....and they did. 

Could you imagine anyone today doing something similar with a Jewish theme?  I´m quite sure there would have been a strong outcry against such an activity, it probably would have been more sophisticated, due to the fact that the Jewish community has more experience dealing with the issue and "Western" society.

At the least the "cartoons" were in bad taste......in reality they were a part of a propaganda program against a group.  Yes, they have a legal right to have been done, but was that a wise decision?  Was it a decision that will help bring about understanding and help ease tensions?

My moral compass says they were a very bad idea.

Actaully, an "adamant justification" of the Mohamed cartoons does make some reasonable points, I wish some people on the "other" side could see them. I think that the fact that you can´t see the points that those who "justify the cartoons" make, makes you the same kind of person as those who can´t see why some people may be offended by the cartoons.

Also, I think that you are stretching this a bit too far... Mohammed was mocked in the cartoons, not "all Muslims", no group was "dehumanized or belittled" in the cartoons. At least that is how the cartoons were seen by the westerners -- mocking religion, mocking how contradictory religious beliefs are -- not mocking people. 

Another point I have in mind is that every country/nation has conventions that are relevant in that particular region. Europe makes laws against denying Holocaust, but also they feel free to mock ANY religion.. that´s their culture and that´s what they understand by freedom of speech. Some Arab countries deny the existance of Holocaust, dehumanize the whole West, demolish churches, call for the death of the pope (or whatever that was), and penalize (sometimes by death) any criticism of Islam...

So is there a universal law that should guide the rules regarding "freedom of speech"?

When Muslim/Turkish/Arab people mock about Christians I´ve never heard of groups in western countries demonstrating in the streets, burning flags, attacking embassies etc. People in the ´West´ shrug and think ´they´re mad´. Is it really a question of long toes?

As I said previously, it was in very poor taste.  If the objective was to provoke distrust & hate,  it was a job well done.  It could just be that in "Western" cultures there is little passion regarding religion.   IOW....they don´t care.  In any analysis of the situation, it was a very provocative action.

Of course attacking embassies was ridiculous and counterproductive.  However, people do not have to patronize businesses who practice policies they don´t agree with.

Again, it was in very poor taste.

I was revisiting the controversy and am amazed how much damage those stupid cartoons wrought.

In your view is was in very poor taste. I found them slightly funny but absolutely not funny enough for a second look. A matter of different type of humour I suppose.

You are entitled to have this opinion, just like others are as well to have theirs... I think that it´s really sad that some people do not understand why someone would draw and publish these cartoons. Maybe it´s cultural incompetence? Lack of respect/understanding of other people´s culture? It seems to be something of that sort, which means that they are acting like little children who expect to be taken care of, as opposed to doing their part in the process of gaining mutual understanding/respect..

You can acknowledge that there was harm done - in your opinion - by the cartoons, but it would be desirable if you and poeple who agree with you could understand the other side, instead of objectifying and demonizing them in simplistic ways.

I don´t have to imagine, Google graphics has thousands of political cartoons, especially not favourable ones in relation to Palestine, with Jews - somehow I haven´t heard of Jews stabbing cartoonists recently.

There are many sad and ugly things one can find with a search....it´s in bad taste, ugly and counter productive, no matter who does it.  It is unfortunate so much alienation is cultivated through such tactics. 

Much to their credit, the Jewish people have learned how to deal with issues of this type very well.  In general, the Islamic world has not.

Did I miss something? Which cartoonist has recently been stabbed by Muslims?

 Stabbed not but threatened though - enough. Or doesn´t that count?

It surely doesn´t count.  As a matter of fact, we should singularly talk about radical Islamist countries like Iran in this connection. They do not represent the whole Islam. Theirs is more like a politicized religious point of view rather than religion itself. What those artists don´t know is that they are targeting the Iran type of Islam and attacking the whole belief system which is quite ignorant to say the least.

Totally agree with your points...

Ah yes. And to avoid the upcoming of that type of Islam and not to disturb those ´friendly´ people all others need to be quiet and shut up? I don´t think so, that would be bowing for dictatorship. Besides, if you think that type of Islam is typical for Iran c.s. you´re wrong and you don´t know your own countrymen. Loads of Islamic immigrants here (we mainly have Turks and Moroccons, around 1,1 million on a population of 16,4) responded ´Iranesque´ with cursing and deathwishes, there are quite some cells here that does not exists of people chatting about the weather and knitting sweaters.... Strange eh, that when silenced (or an attempt to) in ones own country people are suspicious and not very open anymore?

Based on what you wrote we are facing yet another Jewish problem in the heart of Europe and all we need is another Hitler to tame those subhuman critters. 

Now that I am wrong and I don´t know those problematic countrymen of mine would you let us know the source of that poll or whatever it is that labeled an entire population and and entire religious community.

You never think of those people as humans don´t you? These people are men, women, children and babies just as you are.  Not all of them can be illegal in your country. They were hired by Dutch companies who sought cheap employment for positions looked down upon by your aloof countrymen. People of befitting education and background applied to those jobs and voila, we don´t want to see those toilet cleaners around. You should invest more in the robotic technology to avoid such unwanted consequences.

Though it is mainly your problem not ours the 1 in 16 is may look awful to you but it is probably not that way to your entrepreneurs who are playing for high stakes in the international markets. They generate a GNP far exceeding most countries on Earth increasing the standards in the country. These leaves behind some dirty work to be taken care of which could only be offered to those guest arbeiters. Apart from cleaning your toilets they entertain you by enriching your slang vocabulary. In Germany, they call those riff raff as cock roaches or black heads.  God knows how many more words you have in your beloved Dutch.

Wherever you look, there is racism undercover...

Quoting Trudy

You can call me a racist, I don´t mind, I know who is saying it. But it would surely suit you to leave that ´victimising´ attitude behind.

Vineyards, I think you are absolutely right about the situation of guest workers in Europe, but I don´t think that this is what Trudy was talking about. I think that she was talking about an extreme form of Islam that is concentrated in Europe, and which has a track record of some quite appaling behavior. I think that we should all recognize the problems among Muslim minorities and demand some things to change. And at the same time we can address the problem of racism as well, but I firmly believe that the radicals and fanatics in Europe are only fueling a new form of racism against Muslims, and if we do not honestly address the legitimate problems that these extremists in Europe present, there is no way to solve the racism.What do you think about Muslim protesters in Europe with flags "death to those who insult Islam"? or people like that guy who brutally murdered Theo van Gogh? These are really legitimate problems with Muslims in Europe..

Trudy, Catwoman,

... then we need to choose our vocabulary considerately.

Not all Turks are Islamist radicals, as a matter of fact an overwhelming majority or them are not.

Even in Iran, a lot of people are not bigots. True they suffer the consequences of a crippled vision offered to them but there it is the ruling class who are radicals.

We keep hearing this minority problem in Europe. I have confidence, it is very difficult for an illegal emmigrant to survive in Europe with all those measures and restrictions. Europe consciously imported this labor force and wanted to get rid of them after it was too late. This is not our problem; I don´t even consider the third generation of Turks as our own citizens or people. Just like there are Poles, Danes in the US, they have become a marginal community within the countries they are settled.

Today, there was a Turkish day parade in Austrian capital. Turkish people living in the country marched through designated streets with Turkish flags in their hands. Such parades are meant for celebrating friendship between countries. The Austrian people harassed the group by dropping nylon bags full of water, urine and human excrement on the crowd.

These people must really have long toes...

catwoman said:  You are entitled to have this opinion, just like others are as well to have theirs... I think that it´s really sad that some people do not understand why someone would draw and publish these cartoons.

Gee thank you...I can have my opinion? The same can be said on the other side. They don´t understand why such things would be done.  It´s the lack of understanding that IS the problem.

catwoman said:  Maybe it´s cultural incompetence? Lack of respect/understanding of other people´s culture?

Exactty the same could also be said of the Westerners.  To me it appears they ("Westerners" being the dominant culture both in economics and military might)  are acting like cultural bullies...a very immature and one of the least charming aspects of childish behaviour. 

catwoman said:  It seems to be something of that sort, which means that they are acting like little children who expect to be taken care of, as opposed to doing their part in the process of gaining mutual understanding/respect..

Are you serious?  What respect are you talking about?  I don´t think the cartoons had any intention of promoting respect.  The intent was to poke fun, belittle, demonize....not provoke respect.

For the record, I don´t approve of any type of cartoon that belittles others and trivializes their beliefs.  That type of action is counter productive in the extreme.  What it does is provoke many times irrational,  defensive behaviour and incite hatred.

 Yep, that´s disgusting. Unfortunately Austria doesn´t have a good name when it comes to (recent) politic views - remember FPÖ of Jörg Haider?

 Actually my dear cat we understood alright

People from other believes belittle ours make fun of it and targeting our prophet in a very low way.

Freedom of speech ?

Hmmm, would anyone consider it freedom of speech if others called him stupid ,..etc or would you rather call it insult ?!

Ýn this point i dont get it, what should i exactly ralay it on culture differences ?!

You mean, i should consider it common in Western culture for people to insult their prophets and others should accept it and consider it as freedom of speech ?!

Ýf so, then pardon me, how can you believe in someone and you insult him ?!!!

Ýf you do this in your culture, we dont do this in ours, actually its not logic that i insult something and at same time i be devoted and believe in it/ him  !

Beside, we dont force people to believe in our religion, we dont insult or attack other people´s religions, so by no way i get it, why people attack or criticise ours

They dont like, fine, stay away from it, let´s believe what we like to believe and you believe what you wish to believe.

´We have our believes and you have yours ´ simple as that !

But you insult our believes and consider it freedom of speech ?!

Ýnsult is an insult...that is what we understand...and thank god for that  ÃMO !

PS: ´you´ is a general term

 No its not.

Denial of god is not punishable  by law but denial of the Holocaust is punishable by law in many of the Western countries, isnt that irony ?! lol

Ý have a question for you

Arabs are semite

So why when attacking them or even more ...it doesnt considered to be antisemite like it is with jewish?

No? What about the impossibility of building churches / holding a Christian servive in quite some Arab countries? What about the denial of many Muslims of the Holocaust? What about the 58/66% Turks (see topic ´Survey´ that don´t want to live next door to a Christian/Jew? What about the demand of some countries (e.g. S.A., Iran) that visitors should dress according to their beliefs?

Turn it otherwise, dear Canli, what if in ´Western´ countries mosques were forbidden? What if people say I don´t want to live next door to a Muslim? (Yes, it happens, also in my country, and if they act like they think - no renting a flat to one or so - they´re punished because of discrimination). What if in other countries ALL Islamic dresscode is formidden, from burka via djellabah to headscarf, everywhere, also on the streets? If that happened, the world is too small for protests from Muslims. (And right they are.) Just don´t pretend to be so human, so kind because you very well know there are loads of things wrong.

Ý havet heard/seen cartoon or something alike about Ýsa ´SA´  Jesus made by Muslims/Arabs/Turks...is there ?!

 Just Google.

I know Arabs are sons of Sem. Do they know it themselves when telling Jews to take a hike? (Or less polite.)

 Sadly it goes on and on and on.....what amazes me is how different groups are scapegoated in different locals. 

 In the SouthWest, it´s the Mexicans who are the out group...then in New York it was the Puerto Ricans.  In France it´s the Morroccans, Algerians and Tunisians who are the out group.  American Blacks have been hated in the US, but loved in France, but subsaharan Africans are out.  In Germany and Northern Europe, it´s the Turks who are out.  It seems to be changing now into the "Muslims" and those dark folks.

On July 12th, Luis Ramirez, a 25-year-old undocumented Mexican immigrant, was beaten to death by a group of teenagers in Shenandoah, PA.
Here is a comment regarding the incident from another forum:

".... they don´t contribute to society. They increase the crime rate, they lower the wages, the cause environmental problems and they may one day cause a civil war. We need to stop the Mexicans from coming into our country and deport as many of them as possible.......We also need to try to encourage as many Mexicans and other Hispanics who are here legally to go home and to encourage the ones who have citizenship to leave and renounce their Amercian citizenship. We are committing suicide as a nation by letting them into the country. They may one day bring about the destruction of our country and that´s easily prevented by stopping them from coming into the country."

Of course this comment completely disregards the fact that many Hispanics have been here longer than so called "whites" have been.  You know all those Mexicans who were here when Mexican land was converted to US land did not die...they stayed, had famlies and are still here.  The US is their home.  It´s insane.

Tiller the killer <---< hate talk leading up to the assasination of Dr Tiller. 

Hate talk legitimizes and incites this type of activity and causes those targeted to go into defensive behaviour.

 Well, none needed to google about Rasul SAV cartoons, it was there right infront of our eyes, so when there are cartoons about Ýsa SA like that...we would have something to talk about then, wouldnt you say ?!

 mmmm, you havent answered my question still Trudy.

Beside, what do you mean about ´telling Jews to take a hike´ ? Are we talking aout Palestine here ?!

Well, i can have a cousin for sure, but i wont gave him my home..!

 No, not only Palestinians. Anti-semitism is not unknown in many Muslim groups, is it?

I do think I answered your question.

And you really belief that all those protesters in every country burning flags, threatening Westerners, blocking embassies, calling for banning products etc have seen the cartoons themselves? They are all genuine insulted themselves? Not instigated by some hotheaded imams and/or politicians?

 I think the "anti-semetic" issue regarding Arabs/Palestine is quite another issue given the happenings in the Occupied Territories now.

Calling Palestinians cancer and lice....

Israeli settlers attack Palestinians in West Bank

There is plenty of blame to go around there, but one thing it shows is how ineffective and destructive hateful speach is.

Thankfully this is a conversation and we can clarify what we mean. I think you are quite right that the immigrants in Europe absolutely do not represent the country that they come from. It is recognized that they are select groups, usually uneducated, often from traditional backgrounds. They emigrate to Europe and there they blend with the local Muslim communities, which are funded by Saudi ultra-radicals. They do not integrate with the native communities, but they isolate themselves within the Muslim circles. Often times they cannot leave the community once they join.

But they do come from Turkey/Morocco... etc, so how can you refer to them other then Turkish/Moroccon..? It does create prejudice... but the only way out of it is to honestly name the problems that these people present and separate it from unfounded stereotyping. If we do not have this honest self-critical conversation, then sad incidents like the one in Austria will not only continue, but will find misguided justification..

 You are now mixing things Trudy!

First, Forced means forced...

We dont say its either our religion or not so i would say they are depressed or something and they wanted to take it out so the made those cartoons !

Second, its not logic that you come to a country where in its constitution saying that by law it is an Ýslamic country, then you complains about its system !

Third, Holocaust is not God or something, so by all means everyone can have the right to talk about it, have opinions or what so ever

How come you have the right to think about the existence of your god and you dont have same right about something happened in the history ?!

History says, it happened, if some people says it doesnt so who would be considered like a fool ?!

Ýts not a holly thing, and if its allowed that you doubt holly things by your law, how is it not allowed you doubt anything else

Do you find that logic ?

As principle...is it ?!

Ý dont deny it, because history says it happened, from other sources than the jewish too, but at same time i have no way to understand how come denying it became a crime !

Fourth...what makes you think that i pretend to be so human and so kind... as a matter of fact... i am   lol

So by the same logic, if you come to a European country, in which it is NORMAL to mock religion, you have to accept that this is how things are done there. You have no right to complain!

 Actually yes.

We saw it, once our countries started to complain about them to the Denmark govrnment...and by no way we didnt need imam to tell us to protest about that !

Ban the product and have nothing to do with anything relatd to the country that allowed insulting our prophet SAV.

Including the 20-30% of people in Egypt that are illiterate? Or the more than 50% in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

 Very well said, CW!   That´s exactly what I mean.

 Yes my dear, they have eyes and they can see.

 Ãts not about the Muslims people who are  living in Denmark complaining about the cartoon insulting their religion

World isnt that small any more

Ý havent been to Denmark but i knew about it, and i live far away from it

Ýt was addressed to the whole Muslims and its matter of whole Muslims too, the insulted our prophet

How come you say its normal to mock my religion ?!

Our prophet to us is dearer than our father or our mother, so how come do you accept Muslims to accept that ?!

And if those people made that cartoon to mock our prophet, then they must understand this

Or do you want to tell me they are bunch of crazy people who say or draw something they dont know nor understand ?!!

Sure they can but I still doubt that in dirt-poor villages people care about buying a newspaper instead of bread/rice. An Afghan student of mine told me that in a lot of mountain villages there is no electricity, so no tv as well nor are newspapers widely available. My guess is that politicians and imams took the opportunity to use it for their own goals. Why I think that? Because these cartoons were almost a year old before that imam in Denmark made a fuss about it which caused the uproar.

Tell me, why should YOU in YOUR country mind about MY laws, MY belief and culture or otherwise around? In your country you are free to say what you wish according to your laws and if I feel insulted than that is my problem, not yours. I get the feeling I have to be careful here with what I say and feel because someone in Faraway-istan might get angry or insulted. Sorry, for me it doesn´t work that way.

Yes Canli, it is NORMAL in Europe to mock ANY religion. It may seem strange to you, but that is how it is. We also know what is going on in YOUR country, even though we live far away from it, and we may not like what you say/do... but we do not go to the Egyptian Embassy and set it on fire because of it. Do you see the similarity?

 My dear, so

When you are standing at your balcony, watching/ hearing your neighbours pointing at you, laughing, making funny drawing, insulting you and then publish it on your entrance

You would consider it freedom of speech andyou should mind your own business ?!

Sorry, for us it doesnt work that way either !

Ýt is OUR religion and they published it not only at the entrance !

 We do NOT insult other people´s believes/religions/ prophets, ...do you see the None similarity ?!

 As a matter of fact you do by denying that Jezus was the son of God. That´s the true belief of millions of people and you (general) say he was ´only´ a prophet.

 Actually we heard about it through our embassador when she complained about it.

There were hiden diplomatic efforts to solve that problem before it came to the open, nothing can be hidden forever you know specially when they want to hide it lol

Ýts not a mater of goals, what would be their goals to sabotage the relatioship between Denmark and the Ýslamic world ?!

You still didnt get it, they couldnt skip an eye over it, they would be questioned by whole muslims.

Our prophet SAV were insulted for the sake of insult... the man is already died, he didnt do anything to them, they also not muslims to have any relation with him...so WHY ?!

 Because like Catwoman said in Europe you can mock about everything: family, appearance, politics, president/king/queen, and also religion. ALL religions.

 Trudy, you make me laugh lol

So i must believe in your religion so i be respectable to it ?!

Sorry...it cant be lol

Beside, you all didnt agree if he is the son of god or he is the god or he is a prophet

As you know you have many believes in that matter...so...which one you think we should not deny ?!

What´s the difference? Why should I believe in your prophet? I don´t and I can mock about non-existing persons / things.

(About your question of not agreeing: read some more about the various sorts of Christianity and you´ll see for a large number of people he was the son of God. Don´t mistake it by the Trinity of God, Son and Holy Spirit. That´s something different but I don´t want to explain here & now, way to long and I´m not a teacher of religious topics.)

Canli, you do insult/mock us. You do say bad/hateful things about us... on some of them you are right on some you are wrong. We are also right on some of the things we say about you guys and wrong about some other... We do have the freedom to mock what we want when we are in our country/home...

I think that you just don´t want to accept that you do something wrong..

 Acknowledging that Europe is not the only continent in the world, and Europeans also not the only people living on Earth, and they are not the Earth rulers too

And Christians are not only believers who live there

So... by any way, why would us accept that ?!!!

According To CIA World Factbook Major Religion percentages – Christians: 33.32%, Muslims: 21.01%, Hindus: 13.26%, Buddhists: 5.84%

 Ummm....Trudy.....I must say I´m amazed you are bringing this into this discussion....but FYI....that is called having different religions.....

Yes, you can and you do...but don´t expect doors to be opened for you when you take this attitude. 

 No, no no Trudy, i have never said you should believe in our prophet...i dont ask you to believe

Ýts your choice

You believe in whatever you want

What i say, that we also have the right to believe in whatever we want without anyone insulting what we believe !

Dear Trudy, we have Christians here as you know, they all dont agree on same thing

Some people i talk with they say yes he is God

Some say no he is son of God

Some say he he the whole 3 !

So its a bit confusing to me i must admit ... they dont agree !

Actually you are wrong cat...that i accept

Ýt has nothing to do with me/us

You can mock us ...disagree or what ever, we will mock too, disagree or whatever .

But actually, no you cant insult our prophet, we wont accept it...that is different.

We wont insult ÝSA SA because we also believe in him..and he has our respect too...so as you see its a different issue on a different level

And on that level, mocking/insults are not acceptable, and not only by me, but by whole muslims as you saw.

Canli, but in Europe we can mock what we consider appropriate for ourselves. In the Middle East you may not mock Islam, but in Europe we think it is ok to mock ANY religion. We do that "in our homes"!!! If we go to your country, we won´t do that. As you said earlier -- this is what Europe is, if you come here, you have to accept that!

I can see canli how serious this issue is for you, but I wish that you could also understand why in Europe people would not consider it such a serious issue and would be willing to mock religion... This is a matter of mutual understanding. You try to understand where we are coming from and we try to understand wehre you are coming from...

Or, if you don´t want to strive for mutual understanding, you can say that the cartoons were drawn to insult you (Muslims) and we (Europeans) can say that Muslims are violent unreasonable people...

I appreciate the fact that religion is the center of life for some people, they would not stand any jokes about their faith... Can you also try to understand that we find some aspects of religions unreasonable and we find it appropriate to mock that? In other words, can you try not to dehumanize us and instead try to understand us?

 Dear cat...Ýslamic world didnt go to Denmark when this incident happened!

Ýts not about here and there...

Ýts about living in same world whee everyone living at his own home ´country´ respecting the other neighbour.

Take a wider look...

Muslim world who considered a neighbour to the christian world complained about that neighbour attitude and that neighbour ´Christian ´ believe he is living in that world alone, or by at least living and ruling the others so the others SHOULD accept his attitude.

the thing is...that is not the case, Christian world neither live in the world alone nore ruling it .

Ýt is/was a believe since the 19th where Muslim countries were depresed and actually ruled by Western countries and have no voice.

But im afraid that is history and over ...and you should acknowledge having a neighboure !

 No im sorry, its not same

When you enter a country, you agree to its terms, to respect its system, and that is the conditions to get into that country or live in it.

But once you did, you are living there equal to eveyone else, and you grant that right by its system too

So i would also have the right to be respected, and that includes my believes.

So YES, i woud have the right to complain, unless the system i agree on says otherwise !

According to this point of view, Orthodox Christians have now been considered outside of Christian faith.

Go explain this to them. They also don´t believe Jesus is the son of God. For thousands of years and much much earlier than the Dutch, they have been thinking they are the true Christians.

Reading is not your best quality, is it? I never said ALL Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. I mentioned a variety in Christianity and I said that millions do believe he is the son. You are - again, as usual - jumping to conclusions.

 this is what I could never understand as a young adult being brought up in a christian household....how ´we´ under the label of christianity believe in such different versions of one story all depending on what you were born into!! still don´t understand it really!

What we are missing here in this discussion is understanding of the term respect. When somebody draws a cartoon of a religious prophet with a bomb instead head-gear, it doesn´t mean that person doesn´t respect other people´s right to practise their religion. It is means of commenting on the event that a group calling themselves followers of Islam committed an act of terrorism. The message of the cartoon wasn´t "All Muslims are terrorists or Mohammet was a terrorist" the message was "Some people abuse religion in order to justify their crimes"

Freedom of speech is a complex issue. On the one hand, in Europe it is illegal to discriminate against religions, ethnicity or gender. Of course it´s not true that Europe is a perfect continent and discrimination never happens. But when it does, you can go to court. On the other, you cannot expect people to respect your religion or political views. Everybody´s free to criticize everyone and everything. Yet, the fact that somebody criticises your religion doesn´t deprive you of your right to practise whatever you believe in. In other words, you´ve got the right to believe and practise any religion you choose but you have to accept that other people are going to criticise it if they feel like it. I haven´t heard of one single religion/prophet that has not been mocked. Still, if you are a believer why should you care about it? somebody´s sense of humour (or lack of it) does not influence your right to believe.

Incidents when members of any religious or ethnic group are being attacked should be condemned, they have nothing to do with freedom of speech. But drawing cartoons, telling jokes or writing research papers are means of expressing your beliefs or opinions and you should be free to do that.

 Actually, they do...that is if they follow the Nicene Creed.....

First Council of Nicea (325)

" We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;

From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

And in the Holy Ghost.
[But those who say: ´There was a time when he was not;´ and ´He was not before he was made;´ and ´He was made out of nothing,´ or ´He is of another substance´ or ´essence,´ or ´The Son of God is created,´ or ´changeable,´ or ´alterable´—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]"

The only difference is between Trinitarians and Unitarians....which is what the big issue was at the time.

"Unitarianism as a theology is the belief in the single personality of God, in contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity (three persons in one God).[1] It is the philosophy upon which the modern Unitarian movement was based, and, according to its proponents, is the original form of Christianity. Unitarian Christians believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, as found in the New Testament and other early Christian writings, and hold him up as an exemplar. Adhering to strict monotheism, they maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity, of Jesus. Their theology is thus distinguishable from the theology of Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, mainline Protestant, and other Christian denominations which hold the Trinity doctrine as a core belief."

Here is a list of some of the differences between different schools of Christianity.

At least in your own country you should feel free to criticize ANY belief system!

I unfortunately have to repeat, you have a lot of cliches about Muslims and Turks in your mind. Some of the broadest minded persons I have ever known were Muslims who regard this religion as a covenant between God and themselves. Islam is not a shallow belief system, it is at least as sophisticated as other religions. There is a strong movement of sufizm for example providing for the philosophical openings of the religion. It takes years to come to grasp of the essence of the sufi school. It is not just something you can judge based on a vague definition. In our country, Kemal Ataturk established a secular republic and its first parliament gave suffrage to women earlier than most European countries.  This happened in a muslim country. 

If you are unhappy with the Turkish minority in your country, you are welcome to sign up with a radical right wing party and pave the path for ousting those people.  We did not buy their tickets 50 years ago so we don´t care about them today. They are in a different country, striving to become a part of it. They often don´t even speak Turkish (talking about the third generation) and usually waiver from their turkish citizenship since they don´t want to fulfill their military service in a country they only know through their parents. By and large, it is your problem.

It is of course, not normal, boasting of your alcohol consumption, support for the gays, and post-modern ways. Just by saying them you prove you don´t know the first thing about life in big cities. Day in day out, we are sharing life with males and females who do all sorts of jobs from truck driving to delivery services. You may regret being entitled to a lesser salary the European style, but in Turkey both sexes are offered the same amount of salaries.  This is also true for the military. We have had a female prime minister again earlier than many European countries. To cut it short, we are happy with our lives. 

When there was a war in Iraq our government opened the doors for the Kurdish refugees and if my memory is not fooling me some 300.000 of them flooded into our borders.  No European country is doing this.  Greek and Italian war boats actually drive African refugees back to international waters. 

In the 80´s and 90´s, so many political (mostly Kurdish) refugees emigrated to Sweden, Germany and Holland. At that time, the governments in those countries were playing a political game. Now they have a drug traffic problem...  Many of those people were wanted by the Turkish police. For example:

"Fehriye Erdal is a female terrorist of Kurdish descent from Turkey. She was one of the three DHKP-C members involved in the assassination of a Turkish businessman, Ozdemir Sabanci and two of his employees on January 9, 1996 in Istanbul, Turkey. In 1999, she was captured in Belgium.^[1] At the time of her arrest, she held a fake passport under the name Nese Yildirim. Belgian officials were able to identify her only after her fingerprints were taken. In 2006, a couple of hours before her sentence was announced and in spite of being under 24-hour surveillance of the Belgian Secret Service, she managed to flee.^[2] She was to be sentenced to a four-year imprisonment in Belgium for the crimes she had committed in that country.^[3] She would later be handed over to Turkey in order to be tried for her involvement in terrorist activities within the borders of the Turkish Republic. Since her escape, Interpol has issued a red bulletin for Fehriye Erdal sending a message to its 186 member countries that she is to be captured and returned to Belgium.^[4] Although there have been reports that she has been seen in Cyprus and Jordan, there is no solid information on her whereabouts."

Source: Wikipedia.

P.S. Turkish government did everything to get this fugitive back from Belgium. The Belgian government came up with excuses all the time. She mysteriously disappeared. Many other people mysteriously disappeared. Kurdish terrorist Apo was arranged passports by the Greek authorities.

Before complaining of the minorities in your country think about this: would your government allow anything that that would not be to their benefit? As a matter of fact, they can clean the country from illegals if they want to. But who knows who is making money from where and through what association. This is alway the reason why simple problems cannot be solved.

As for your claim about tolerant Europeans permitting mosques in their countries. Well, in Athens, there are no mosques. All of them have been destroyed or converted. In Bulgaria,many  mosques are being used as stables. All around Europe, there is an unearthly racist awareness. As Alameda explained earlier, there is a similar kind of awareness in the US too. I would not want to offend anyone here but I geniunely think this awareness think is hard coded into your culture. We can talk about a Balkan style ethnic awareness, Italian,  Spain and France form another group, there are central and European countries that make up the third group.

 A thoughtful post as usual Daydreamer....of course, I have some disagreements

The question of when and where Free Speech and Hate Speech converge is difficult to define in light of today´s internationalism.  It is clear that when articles are published & broadcast across an international audience there are very real threats regarding unintended impact and risks are greatly amplified.

It seems in the name of Free Speech people are taking license to spew all sorts of venomous bile.  We certainly have a lot of it here in the US....case in point:

Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs Responsible for Rise in Hate Crimes Against Hispanics

Some are ignorant and naive; some do it to increase their public stature. I think we need to ask ourselves exactly what are we doing.

If we can admit we don´t understand other cultures, maybe then we will understand we don´t realize when we are crossing lines and try to be more careful in hurting others feelings.

In light of recent events, it appears most probable that those limits will be trial.

Criminal Code of Canada

Sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code make it a criminal offence to:

advocate genocide

publicly incite hatred

wilfully promote hatred against an "identifiable group."

Hate Speech

....and then there is the issue in legal terms of Provocation.  This is a hot debate and I doubt if we will resolve it here and now, but it´s certainly something to think about.

It reminds me of one time I called a French person rude....of which they were greatly insulted and hurt.  In US english calling someone rude is not a big insult, in French, it´s very bad....(rude) and not taken lightly at all.

What a cop out...we are responsible for our own actions people..if you are that easily influenced by radio personnel maybe some physco therapy is needed. I think it´s pitiful that people blame Rush for increased hate crimes...  It´s the blame game here in the states...everyone points fingers but never do they take ownership for their actions. 

Calling someone "rude" is an insult to most people...sometimes I wander Alamada if you really live in the U.S.  You tend to speak in general terms for all of us...

The thing about Limbo is that it shows how misogynist and racist this country is, if a mental person like him can make a career out of talking about his racist opinions... Media does influence the culture, but it´s not that simple... Limbo himself can´t do much.. it has to fall on a ´fertile ground´..

sigh....in many ways you are right ........and he tills the ground very well....then he´s not alone...there are a whole lot of them.

I do think they encourage things. Sort of like a cheer leader or motivational speaker. They do have an effect.

You know there is such a thing as public relations.....aka propaganda....billions are spent on it.....

Noam  Chomsky ....Manufacturing Consent?

Of course none of it would work if people were not lazy.....but are they lazy or overworked, busy trying to make sense of a very complicated world and looking for shortcuts.

 yes you are correct teaschip....however the tone, body language have to also be considered.  Another French person, who is fluent in English explained to me the difference.

BTW....is there some reason you don´t spell my name right? It´s Alameda, not Alamada.