Manning, welcome tot he site. I agree with everything you said about western culture being more about individualism and ability to make one´s choices. Even if sometimes people´s choices result in pregnancies, it still sounds better to me than being chosen a groom and forced to have sex with him. The peer pressure encouraging teens to have sex doesn´t make everyone have sex at the age of 12. Actually most of my friends lost their virginity in secondary school, so at about 17.

As for sex before marriage, everyone´s free to decide whether or not to have it. Why should I mind people who want to stay virgin until they get married? I´m perfectly ok with it. But I won´t have people telling me what to do. I´d never marry before having sex just because I don´t believe it´s something "sacred". My feeling is - if you are with someone you like and if you feel like doing it then why not? Yet, I´m still far from imposing my point of view on others. It´s like food - some people like kokoreç so let tem eat it, nobody will ever convince me that sheep´s intestines are tasty.

With the exception of the simplest and natural ones, free-choice exists only for the mighty and the rich.

Furthermore, being able to make choices does not automatically bring forth freedom for the masses. On the contrary, people of similar choices tend to stand together and restrict the choices of those who are in minority. Norms follow suit in such communities paving the path for more restrictions for marginals.

Your choices define who you are which in return effectively limits options available to you.A teenager girl condemns the government when she is denied entry to university because she wears hejab. In her neighborhood on the other hand, many a young girl in revealing clothes finds it difficult to walk by without being harassed or molested. Just like the personal freedoms of black or middle-eastern people are at stake when they are in the wrong neighborhood (and vice versa).

Consequently, unless there is a moral basis that governs the extent of freedoms, there is no freedom at all.

 This phrase came to mind while reading this thread....

"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose"

We are all slaves to our biological existance.  Without ingestion, absorbtion and excretion we die. 

After that we are slaves to our desires.   Our desires are limited by our means.  

The mighty and rich are not free either, as they are more easily enslaved by their power and the fear of the loss of it.....they have less to constrain their desires...which in turn enslaves them.

Of course only the insane are trully free, unless we argue that it´s their insanity that limits them. All others exist within material, social, intellectual or religious boundaries. We were not generalising here about there being absolute freedom in the world. What was at issue here was how personal freedoms are realised in the west, or to be more precise, the liberty of becoming sexually active.

The notion of moral basis is an obscure one, if we look at the middle east we see how the government´s or monarch´s morality is reflected in the society. The result is mostly unacceptable for a westerner, especially a female westerner. This leads me to believe that indeed, western society is freer, ie grants more individual freedom as far as personal decisions are concerned.

There´s a quote from M. Atwood´s Handmaid´s Tale

"There are two kinds of freedom: freedom to and freedom from"

The society depicted by Atwood is a society free from rape, violence, poverty but at he same time it´s a terrifying place where women are not free to make their own decisions or live their life as they´d like.

Are you serious?

.....from your link....

"From its very beginnings in Mesopotamia and Ancient Greece the East-West distinction has been somewhat difficult to define with precision."

Beginnings in Mesopotamia ????

Mesopotamia (Arabic: بلاد الرافدين transliterated: Bilad Al-Rafidayn, Greek exonym: Μεσοποταμία, "land between the rivers")[1] is a toponym for the area of the Tigris-Euphrates river system, along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, largely corresponding to Iraq,[2] as well as some parts of northeastern Syria,[2] some parts of southeastern Turkey,[2] and some parts of the Khūzestān Province of southwestern Iran.

From your link "This article may contain original research or unverified claims. Please improve the article by adding references. See the talk page for details. (May 2009)
 This article is in need of attention from an expert on the subject "

I do think there is a "Western Culture", but it didn´t start in Mesopotamia....that link was a rather biased article....as was inferred on the page containing it....

perhaps you should find your own roots.

Sexual freedom being a hallmark of the Westen culture? That is probably only true for the last few decades and not more. Sexuality was not invented in the recent centuries. Instead, it existed since the first humans and the freedoms pertaining to it have been lived in different ways. There were periods marked by what we may call today as a complete freedom for sexual perversion of all kinds. Then again this is just a point of view valid only today. If you look into the history of the West, you´ll notice there is a deliberate aversion from sex. In some sects, monks are not allowed to get married and the mere thought of sex is considered a sin for a nun. Only a little while ago in the 50´s, marriages were a lot more old fashioned with thick lines for what women are supposed to do were very much in place. Inquisition courts and witch hunts are the historical proofs I could put forward.

The rise of individualism had its roots elsewhere and mainly in the East (see India). Sexual revolution in Scandinavia began along with the drug craze which again had its roots in Asia. It was a huge protest the like of which has never been seen in history. It being a protest was so obvious, the movement wanted to essentially change whatever there is in the West that restrains people´s lives comprehensively.

The Asian cultures have traditionally been a lot less reserved about sex. I find the Western notion of sex to be a lot more brutal and shallow which is manifested in the works of the porn indistry which I believe serves the needs of an average Western person. Everywhere female flesh is on display. Magazines and newspapers are full of news suggestive of sexuality in the meanest sense. Your media cannot get around its obsession with the likes of Paris Hilton.

When we travel back in time a couple of centuries, we end up with a complete change of values pertaining to sex. In Asiatic and Hellenic cultures homosexuality was regarded quite normal. There were whole periods praising homosexuality as a choice quite openly and without any shame or restraints. A Turkish ruler in India named Babur Shah writes about his love for a young male. He goes into such details as how he his face would be blushed and that he would  be tongue-tied when he saw his (male) lover. From what he wrote we know that most of his contemporaries had both wives and male lovers.

What you wrote could be true for these few decades but they lack depth and thus credibility.

Alameda

I think you have misunderstood my point.

AlphaF claimed to have "invented" the term "Western Culture".

I was merely pointing out that this term has been in use for many many years and was certainly NOT invented on this forum.

I completely agree that there is plenty of dispute about what the term "Western culture" actually means. 

I contend it much of the time in "Western" culture it´s  about the self as in selfish, rather than something high minded, and also I think it´s the result of manipulation. Try looking at:

"Century of the Self"

"Bernays was convinced that this was more than just a way of selling consumer goods. It was a new political idea of how to control the masses. By satisfying the inner irrational desires that his uncle had identified, people could be made happy and thus docile."

It documents the beginning of the all-consuming self glorification, which has come to dominate today´s world.

all four videos can be seen here

If you are ever in a disaster you will see how far you get by yourself.    In a  community more strength is found than by being an "individual".  In order to accommodate others,  concessions are required.  Collectivism requires a degree of altruism.

We are getting so individual that there is very little family left. It used to be that the family was a stronghold.  By family I don´t just mean a small nuclear family, but the large extended family that one sees in the "East" more.  How many "Westerners" know cousins or who their second, third, forth or fifth cousins are?  How many actually have any type of relationship with them?

Society starts with the family, how we get along with our family largly determines how we get along with the rest of civilization.  What I see in the "Western" civilization is to me truly tragic.  As I´ve mentioned before, I´ve visited many elderly who are alone, while their famlies are off some other place taking care of their "individual" needs.

We are becoming even more segregated with "Senior Communities" where the young are deprived of the experience and wisdom of their elders, and the elders wither away unwanted, unappreciated. All that life experience wasted.....and what a shock it will be to the youth when they get to that same end....as they will....all they have to do is live long enough.

Drifting aimlessly from one sexual encounter to the next and the next and again the next and on ad infinititum, does little to build lasting meaningful quality relationships.  It really is little more than communal masturbation, in my opinion.  One may feel liberated and "free" but are they? 

Some things are precious and fragil treasures.  To me they are sacred.

We need to find a balance between out of control "individualism" and "collectivism".  United we stand....divide and conquer.....

??? young teenage turks are actually mature at that age compared to teenagers here in the US.... It doesn´t surprise me why they would marry so young.

  Being a teacher here in Turkey, i couldn*t disagree with you more! Most of my thirty year olds act as children! To be fair a teen is a teen however, some are forced to NOT act their age. But their maturity and mentality are pretty universal. Of course this doesn*t apply to teens dealing with extreme conditions. However, even those ones are still just teenagers being forced to grow up quickly.

Vineyards, I never said in my former post that sexuality was inveted in the west or that the way it functions nowadays has been the same for ages. As I´m sure you´re able to observe, culture and society within it evolve so things change. I´m happy that the change is for better. A few decades ago a single woman would be called a spinster as women were expected to marry. Fortunately that changed and so did people´s attitude to sex. That´s why women who decide to have sex are no longer stoned as they are in the easter culture that you admire so much or put into convents like it used to be. Also forced marriages are a thing of the past. Sex never had too much meaning attached to it, it was merely about procreation and gene mixing before Christianity took over. It was common in Slavonic culture to offer wanderers crossing a village a woman so that genes are exchanged. Nobody demanded virginity and nobody was making taboo of it. With Christianitythat changed, people started being embarrassed about something as natural as sex. These days it´s regaining its balance and I find it a good thing. You don´t have to do what you don´t want to so that´s fair enough by me. The eastern cultures you mention

Sexual freedom does not result in perversion, that´s an oversimplification. Law is clear about what is and what is not legal. Of course there are people breaking the law but when they´re caught, they get punished. Following your feeble reasoning, shopping centers cause shoplifting.

Moreover, sexual freedom is NOT a hallmark of western culture, it is actually a tiny part of everyday life. Our right to follow our needs as far as the law allows us, nothing more nothing less.

As for the porn industry, I believe Turkish newspapers are actually more revealing than western ones (I´m not talking here about pornographic press but tabloids or daily newspapers). Still, western men seem to respect women more than those in the east. Any person can watch a porn, read an x-rated magazine or even make their own tape and put it on the Internet if they feel like it. Yet, verbal abuse of women in the streets is scarce - they know that any woman can press charges so if they feel like letting off some steam, they do it in the privacy of their homes or special institutions . I have never travelled far east, but Turkish attitude was enough for me. Men following me, openly saying sexist things and not wanting to beat it unless I shouted at them - those are not things I´m likely to experience home. And I was not wearing very revealing clothes when I was on my own, so what you´re saying about sexual ease being grounds for perversion is not true, it is actually the culture surpressing natural needs that provokes it.

Homosexuality is another issue, it´s ridiculous when countries like Iran state that there are no homosexuals in them. Sure...the fact that you say you don´t see an elephant in the middle of the room doesn´t mean it´s not there. You may dislike homosexual people, you may be 100% straight, but condemning adult people for what they do at each other´s consent is illogical.

I find it surprising you are closer to accept the imposed eastern submissiveness of women, death penalties for having sex, forced marriages, polygamy and abuse within marriage than the culture that allows adult people make their own decisions