Vineyards, I never said in my former post that sexuality was inveted in the west or that the way it functions nowadays has been the same for ages. As I´m sure you´re able to observe, culture and society within it evolve so things change. I´m happy that the change is for better. A few decades ago a single woman would be called a spinster as women were expected to marry. Fortunately that changed and so did people´s attitude to sex. That´s why women who decide to have sex are no longer stoned as they are in the easter culture that you admire so much or put into convents like it used to be. Also forced marriages are a thing of the past. Sex never had too much meaning attached to it, it was merely about procreation and gene mixing before Christianity took over. It was common in Slavonic culture to offer wanderers crossing a village a woman so that genes are exchanged. Nobody demanded virginity and nobody was making taboo of it. With Christianitythat changed, people started being embarrassed about something as natural as sex. These days it´s regaining its balance and I find it a good thing. You don´t have to do what you don´t want to so that´s fair enough by me. The eastern cultures you mention

Sexual freedom does not result in perversion, that´s an oversimplification. Law is clear about what is and what is not legal. Of course there are people breaking the law but when they´re caught, they get punished. Following your feeble reasoning, shopping centers cause shoplifting.

Moreover, sexual freedom is NOT a hallmark of western culture, it is actually a tiny part of everyday life. Our right to follow our needs as far as the law allows us, nothing more nothing less.

As for the porn industry, I believe Turkish newspapers are actually more revealing than western ones (I´m not talking here about pornographic press but tabloids or daily newspapers). Still, western men seem to respect women more than those in the east. Any person can watch a porn, read an x-rated magazine or even make their own tape and put it on the Internet if they feel like it. Yet, verbal abuse of women in the streets is scarce - they know that any woman can press charges so if they feel like letting off some steam, they do it in the privacy of their homes or special institutions . I have never travelled far east, but Turkish attitude was enough for me. Men following me, openly saying sexist things and not wanting to beat it unless I shouted at them - those are not things I´m likely to experience home. And I was not wearing very revealing clothes when I was on my own, so what you´re saying about sexual ease being grounds for perversion is not true, it is actually the culture surpressing natural needs that provokes it.

Homosexuality is another issue, it´s ridiculous when countries like Iran state that there are no homosexuals in them. Sure...the fact that you say you don´t see an elephant in the middle of the room doesn´t mean it´s not there. You may dislike homosexual people, you may be 100% straight, but condemning adult people for what they do at each other´s consent is illogical.

I find it surprising you are closer to accept the imposed eastern submissiveness of women, death penalties for having sex, forced marriages, polygamy and abuse within marriage than the culture that allows adult people make their own decisions

1   Yes, in fact the Christian ideal is celibacy, and if one is going to indulge in sex, it was only for reproduction,  and only certain positions were allowed. I think what we see in "Western" culture now is a reaction to that. You know,  like when a kid gets in the candy store, often times they overindulge and make bad choices. I think eventually it will even out.  Now it´s like drug addicts looking for a stronger fix or something new that will satisfy. Additionaly,  I think the constant talking about it comes from the tradition in the church of confession and absolution. The East has no such a tradition.

2    Many draw the conclusion that it was actually the invention of penicillin, birth control pills that let loose the sexual revolution,  in conjunction with questioning of traditional Christian religious teachings.

3   The lust for new adventure as expressed in pornography is a symptom of an inability to be satisfied. Jewish, Islamic and Eastern cultures have traditionaly had a much more realistic and humane attitude towards sex, in as much as it was never seen as  just as a method to reproduce, but a means of comfort and emotional bonding as well.  Celibacy has no place in either Judaism and  Islam. 

my obnion the true age of marraige is 24 or 25

Alameda, I think you got it wrong. Celibacy is for priests only, not for common folks. Also it means "being unmarried" not "not having sex". At least not directly as what Christianity has been teaching is that sex is for married people only. And in this respect I believe it´s similar to Islam or Judaism. However, comparing countries with dominant Christianity, people disagreeing with the Churches will are not stonned to death or killed in order to save the family´s face. However, this is still, in 21th century, what happens in Islam dominant countries. Hence I have no idea how you can believe that Islam and Judaism grant sexual freedom as opposed to Christianity.

On theoretical grounds - all Big Three agree that sex if for married people. True, Islam may be more permitting here as it allows men have sex with more than one woman - now - is that a good thing?

In reality - in the past Christianity demanded that people have sex only for procreation. However, we all know hardly anyone listened to it. Literature from Reneissance on shows that people were actually having loads of out-of-weddlock sex, usually priests were no exception (I don´t think there´s an institution as biased and hypocritical as Roman Catholic Church). So, despite Church´s teachings people never really listened. What Alameda talks about - Confession and Absolution being the key words here. In Christianity you sin, then confess and are granted absolution. Who wouldn´t take that chance. Also it´s a way for priests to have sex despite celibacy

Nowadays we all know what´s it like - Christianity is a choice and the influence of Church calling for abstinence falls on deaf ears.

Do I really need to talk about present day Islam´s "loose" attitude to sex? Honour killings, stonings, polygamy...wait! So it´s actually exactly as it used to be in the past If you prefer to call such attitude to sex liberal than have fun (or not)

this message was posted before it was finished...read the next one.

I haven´t read all the posts in this thread, but just based on Alameda´s last post -- I cannot believe that an intelligent, educated person can defend polygamy in Islam (or not in Islam, doesn´t matter). It´s a primitive and ugly tradition/custom/way of life... It doesn´t matter why it´s there or what the origin of this kind of arrangement are, "the ideal state a human can aspire to" -- using your own words -- is faithfullness and loyalty between two people, if they want to call each other husband and wife (that is, if they want to give this cohabitation another name, like ´a man and his slaves´, or ´a man and his harem´, then that seems to do away with the hypocricy at least, and then god bless them). Luckily, the Western culture has evolved to recognize that having multiple wifes is simply wrong.

Comparing that to a man having his mistresses besides his marriage seems to me like a desparate way of looking for an excuse to islamic polygamy. I would feel stupid to even explain the reason why!!!

1  Let´s get real here....yes and a virgin really means unwed female...right. What was meant was no sex.

Celibacy in Christianity

The ideal woman in Christianity is the Blessed Perpetually Virgin Mary, giving rise to the Virgin Whore syndrome.

Of course marriage was allowed, there would be no humans if it weren´t.  If St Augustine has his way even that would not have been allowed.  Even though marriage was allowed, relations within marriage were strictly regulated.  Marriage for clergy was allowed after a great deal of conflict....The Protestant Reformation brought in more liberal views....but by that time there were already over 1500 years of anti-sex/marriage tradition embedded in society.  We could go into all the various branches of Christianity, but let it suffice to say the one of the most important elements to the attainment of the highest state a human could attain was obtainable only as a monastic celibate....and sex was for procreation, not fun.....

2  Muslims and Jews are allowed to enjoy sex.

3 ....and Western men only have sexual relations with one woman?  How many men in Western cultures have more than one women....with those women having no path to legitimacy.  The norm in Islam is one wife, but under some conditions,  and only if a man can afford it (in all ways), Islam allows for up to 4 wives.  Some of those conditions are, if a woman can not have children, is too ill to have relations...instead of abandoning her, he can ask for another wife.  He has to treat them all equal, provide separate living quarters for each one, spend equal time with each one. Each wife has legal rights.....unlike mistresses who are out in the cold if the man tires of her.

4   Yes dangling absolution in front of the eyes of people like a carrot has has brought in a lot of converts.....however....many,  do not buy it....Then most do not bother to read the fine print....absolution is only possible in the case of perfect contrition....not just fear of hell.

My point is;  the effects of 2000 years of sexual repression on the culture remain.

I really think you exaggerate things a great deal. Honor killings are remnants of pagan practices, stonings are rare, and happen only in the most backward places.  Few countries practice it. FYI the only way a legal case for adultery can be obtained is with, all but impossible evidance, or if one testifies against oneself.

Of course,  as you mentioned, much of the repression on sexuality was ignored.  Sexual freedom/exploitation was widely practiced by the upper class in parts of Europe. 

Point in fact, although it is thought the Victorian period was very prudish, at the same time many famous and influential courtesans all but ruled the day.  A woman could raise the status of her husband, with his full knowledge by making "liaisons" with well placed men....a well documented fact...isn´t there a famous princess  who bragged about her great grandmother.

Courtesans

You know, I find it amusing when some people who say sex is no big deal and jealousy is stupid, get so upset when thinking about strictly regulated Islamic polygamy.

You have your beiefs, and nobody is asking you, or suggesting you personaly accept such a situation. 

I did not say it is the ideal situation, or even a desirable one, but I am looking at it in a rational manner, not emotional, it is an option allowed for some situations.

The fact of the matter is, in Western societies,  more than a few women have had long term relationships with married men, even had children by them.  This is a fact.....and those women and children have little protection, they are even scorned.  Do you really think that is preferable?

You can shut your eyes, but it has been practiced for many years, and many of the Patriarchs had multiple wives.

David   

Soloman

Jacob

to name a few......

Then take a look at nature....and our closest relatives...the chimpanzee...gorilla....

Just because something has been practiced for many years does not make it right....stoning people to death has been practiced for many years too.  Should that be an accepted practice? 

As far as chimps and gorillas...humans have the capacity for complex thought processes.  They share similar genes and are intelligent creatures, no doubt, but they are not even close to being as evolved as the human when it comes to thinking, reasoning and questioning.

 All humans, GG?

i think you all wastin time for nothin....Before marriage you cant do sex...or anythin else...if you think so..pls have a look Quran... and HZ Lut and HZ Nuh (a.s) phophet Life...god gave them punishment coz of sex (gay ,Homosexual,young girl sex with hisdad ,old man ,etc)

   I belive in god...whtvr he said we should follow...otherwise no matter what  u guys say is nonsen about this topic....