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Kurd-free Turkey?
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1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 12:31 pm

The next big thing: Turkish separatism

For years and years, the Turkish state and media complained about the ´separatism´ of Kurdish nationalists. But now it seems that even some Turks themselves are joining the club.

.. As a prominent name among ´white´ (Westernized and upper-class) Turks, Mr. Özkök posed a critical question: ´Do we have to live together?´...

A dangerous idea:

...    As one can see clearly on the internet, there is a growing ethno-nationalism within the Turkish majority. Being fed up with not just the quarter-century-long terrorism and guerilla warfare of the PKK, but also the ever-expanding political demands of the Kurds, some Turks started to dream of a ´Kurden-rein´ (Kurd-free) Turkey.


For my part, I am strongly against that dream ..... I know that such a partition among ethnic lines would be disastrous.


There are two main reasons. First, in Turkey there is no clear internal border that would define a would-be independent Kurdistan (Unlike Kosovo, which was a well-defined autonomous region in Serbia). So, in the case of a partition, Kurds will inevitably want as much land as they can get, whereas Turks would be willing to leave as little as possible. Hence there will be conflict.


The even greater problem is that most Kurds in Turkey now live outside of a would-be independent Kurdistan. Millions of them have migrated to Western cities, making Istanbul the largest Kurdish city on earth. An ethnic separation in such a mixed population will lead to mass exoduses, and, most probably, ethnic clashes.


In other words, if an independent Kurdistan is ever carved out of Turkey, it won’t be like the 1991 secession of Slovenia from Yugoslavia, which happened with just a few dozen casualties. It will be, God forbid, something like the 1947 partition of India and Pakistan, during which almost a million people died. The ethnic tension we have seen this week in two separate towns should be sobering enough.


That’s why, I think, no sane person should neither ask for the partition of Turkey, nor pave the way to it. But who said nationalism, especially ethno-nationalism, goes hand in hand with sanity?


... Some Kurds passionately believe that their salvation will come only through an independent nation-state. (Whereas it will probably bring them only poverty and slavery under the dictatorial rule of what is today the PKK. Nation-states, as we Turks have also seen, are ruthless leviathans unless tamed with liberal democracy.)


Yet still, most Kurds in Turkey seem to be content with full cultural freedom, some form of regional autonomy, and a settlement with the PKK. But then comes the problem on the other side: Most Turks are not willing to accept any of these.


The hatred to the PKK is understandable, and is actually the smaller problem. The bigger one is that most Turks have been brainwashed to believe that; a) there is either no such things as Kurds, b) if there is any, then they have to assimilate into the ´Turkish nation.´


A Kurd-free Turkey?


For those who realize that this assimilation project has failed indefinitely, there are two options. The first one is pluralism, which is to accept ´a nation of Turkey,´ with various identities. The second one is Turkish ethno-nationalism, which is to seek a Kurd-free country.


This second trend fuels Turkish separatism, which is likely to grow. Staunch Kemalists will be its foremost champions, for their highest value is the ´preservation of Atatürk’s Republic,´ which has no place for any non-Turkish identity.


The pluralist trend, for which my heart goes, has two assets. The first are the secular liberals, who are inspired by EU norms and even post-modern thoughts. They are fine, but they are also quite marginal. (The last time they found a political party, they received less than one percent of the votes.)


The other group that is sympathetic to pluralism is the Muslim conservatives who make up almost half of the country. They are not bleeding heart liberals, but they have a good frame of reference in the Ottoman Empire, in which the Kurds had all the freedoms they now yearn for.


.... I just know that the tree of democracy only grows on a soil nourished by history and tradition.



I think it is a very critical times in Turkey.. It is either live together or separate..

2.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 12:57 pm

We didn´t seem to care whether someone was Kurdish or not years ago (at least for me. I had a close friend at uni. I learnt years later after finishing uni that he was Kurdish.). Now we are wondering if this guy or that can be a Kurdish when we look at the faces we see everywhere thanks to PKK.We are wondering if they are supporting PKK. We are wondering if they may be planning/supporting some terrorists acts.


What are the benefits of living with Kurds together? What do they contribute to us? They are reproducing like rabbits in low income families. It´s very unlikely for them to get a good education. It´s very unlikely for them to contribute much to this country.


They all walk, shout, throw stones at police, at buildings, they vandalise, they kill our soldiers and policemen. What´s the benefit of living with them really?


3.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 04:01 pm

I think there is a lot more to Turkey than this issue. 

Edited (7/28/2010) by Elisabeth

4.       alameda
3499 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 07:39 pm


Quoting Elisabeth

I think there is a lot more to Turkey than this issue. 


I do too....and it´s really tedious to have this brought up in this manner over and over and over again. It is provocative.

libralady and peacetrain liked this message
5.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 07:48 pm

They, us, this, that. If you didn´t wonder if somebody was a Kurd, a Turk, Laz, Arab, or whatever before, then you shouldn´t wonder the same now. It´s counter productive, just like bringing the discussions about PKK up so much that even Apo himself would get bored by it.

By the way, I think it´s also very strange to address the Kurds as "they" as if it is one group of stone throwing people. Not all Kurds are PKK members. Most Kurds are your co-workers, friends, etc., who contribute to Turkish society in a normal way. Viewing the Kurds as "them" is only causing the ´good´ Kurds to have to deal with racism. This racism will in turn bring more people to PKK, making the circle complete. If you want, hate PKK. Don´t hate Kurds.

Edited (7/28/2010) by barba_mama [read a piece in a post i didn´t like :p]

6.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 09:41 pm


I appreciate your inputs..

And I am aware that what is important to me to post here at a particular time my not be very entertaining yet important for others..

But we have to respect each other´s opinion on this matter.


7.       lemon
1374 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 11:34 pm


Quoting si++

What are the benefits of living with Kurds together? What do they contribute to us? They are reproducing like rabbits in low income families. It´s very unlikely for them to get a good education. It´s very unlikely for them to contribute much to this country.


They all walk, shout, throw stones at police, at buildings, they vandalise, they kill our soldiers and policemen. What´s the benefit of living with them really?



You be careful. This is what exactly some europeans think about muslims who are in europe. So before you say A always have an option B.

To me you sound like an elitist (illuminati). They will measure you by your measures. We had some fellows in the past in europe who decided that non-aryan nations were useless therefore were to be killed.


MehmetK liked this message
8.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 01:34 am

A poem by Sylvia Plath. I was spoiled for choice with regard to where I should post it.



If you dissect a bird

To diagram the tongue

You´ll cut the chord

Articulating song.


If you flay a beast

To marvel at the mane

You´ll wreck the rest

From which the fur began.


If you pluck out the heart

To find what makes it move,

You´ll halt the clock

That syncopates our love.



Edited (7/29/2010) by peacetrain

9.       vineyards
1954 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 03:20 am

Thehandsom, you are not helping out anything by opening these threads. If there is anyone benefiting from these persistent posts it must be you. You start the fire and play the victim thereafter. 

You know how sensitive people have become over the recent murders. No matter how much you would like to distort it, the truth is those who have lost their lives were the legitimate servicemen of a sovereign nation which has every right to hold on to its internationally recognized territory. We do not need to understand the motives of the terrorists, we do not need to focus on the reasons when the emergency dictates that the consequences be taken care of.  Every God damn country in the world have minorities. These people either emigrated from other countries or existed even before its current inhabitants. From Spain to Finland, from the US to India minorities exist with varying levels of contendness of the role they are playing in the host country. For example, in Finland, Lapps enjoy the right to speak and learn their own languages but the Finnish government is unable to find instructors for these people. The number of Lapps in Finland is about 4400. What a big problem? The affluence of the Lapps is also several folds lower than the average Finnish family. On the whole, they are not enjoying similar standards with the Finns. Finland is a European country, it may set an example to other countries in terms of social welfare, order of living etc. This affluent Scandinavian country has not been able to offer similar standards to some 4000 people. Alas, these people had long been living in Finland when the Finns came to Finland some 2000 years ago.


We are talking about a country of 72 million people. This country is located in a geography where civilizations meet. Unfortunately though, civilizations don´t usually meet merrily. Instead there have always been the threat of all-consuming wars to be fought on multiple fronts which makes life difficult for Turkey economically. 

The Kurdish minority is not a minority at all. In the East, they form the majority and they have  a hefty 15 million share in Turkey´s population (just an estimation). They live in the highlands which are practically inaccessible in the winter months. Turkey takes new initiatives, makes investments in the region. For many years, the entire Eastern provinces are considered first priority development areas and substantial tax incentives are offered by the government. Nevertheless, Turkish investers don´t want to invest in the East. Would you invest your money in some remote war-stricken, unstable corner? 

Edited (7/29/2010) by vineyards

lemon liked this message
10.       lemon
1374 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 06:10 am

I have to agree with Vineyards here. Enough is enough. I think everyone is tired with these endless discussions over the same issues. With such activities you will make even your friends hate your actions that are not necessarily wrong. Take a break, man!

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