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Kurd-free Turkey?
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1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 12:31 pm

The next big thing: Turkish separatism

For years and years, the Turkish state and media complained about the ´separatism´ of Kurdish nationalists. But now it seems that even some Turks themselves are joining the club.

.. As a prominent name among ´white´ (Westernized and upper-class) Turks, Mr. Özkök posed a critical question: ´Do we have to live together?´...

A dangerous idea:

...    As one can see clearly on the internet, there is a growing ethno-nationalism within the Turkish majority. Being fed up with not just the quarter-century-long terrorism and guerilla warfare of the PKK, but also the ever-expanding political demands of the Kurds, some Turks started to dream of a ´Kurden-rein´ (Kurd-free) Turkey.

 

For my part, I am strongly against that dream ..... I know that such a partition among ethnic lines would be disastrous.

 

There are two main reasons. First, in Turkey there is no clear internal border that would define a would-be independent Kurdistan (Unlike Kosovo, which was a well-defined autonomous region in Serbia). So, in the case of a partition, Kurds will inevitably want as much land as they can get, whereas Turks would be willing to leave as little as possible. Hence there will be conflict.

 

The even greater problem is that most Kurds in Turkey now live outside of a would-be independent Kurdistan. Millions of them have migrated to Western cities, making Istanbul the largest Kurdish city on earth. An ethnic separation in such a mixed population will lead to mass exoduses, and, most probably, ethnic clashes.

 

In other words, if an independent Kurdistan is ever carved out of Turkey, it won’t be like the 1991 secession of Slovenia from Yugoslavia, which happened with just a few dozen casualties. It will be, God forbid, something like the 1947 partition of India and Pakistan, during which almost a million people died. The ethnic tension we have seen this week in two separate towns should be sobering enough.

 

That’s why, I think, no sane person should neither ask for the partition of Turkey, nor pave the way to it. But who said nationalism, especially ethno-nationalism, goes hand in hand with sanity?

 

... Some Kurds passionately believe that their salvation will come only through an independent nation-state. (Whereas it will probably bring them only poverty and slavery under the dictatorial rule of what is today the PKK. Nation-states, as we Turks have also seen, are ruthless leviathans unless tamed with liberal democracy.)

 

Yet still, most Kurds in Turkey seem to be content with full cultural freedom, some form of regional autonomy, and a settlement with the PKK. But then comes the problem on the other side: Most Turks are not willing to accept any of these.

 

The hatred to the PKK is understandable, and is actually the smaller problem. The bigger one is that most Turks have been brainwashed to believe that; a) there is either no such things as Kurds, b) if there is any, then they have to assimilate into the ´Turkish nation.´

 

A Kurd-free Turkey?

 

For those who realize that this assimilation project has failed indefinitely, there are two options. The first one is pluralism, which is to accept ´a nation of Turkey,´ with various identities. The second one is Turkish ethno-nationalism, which is to seek a Kurd-free country.

 

This second trend fuels Turkish separatism, which is likely to grow. Staunch Kemalists will be its foremost champions, for their highest value is the ´preservation of Atatürk’s Republic,´ which has no place for any non-Turkish identity.

 

The pluralist trend, for which my heart goes, has two assets. The first are the secular liberals, who are inspired by EU norms and even post-modern thoughts. They are fine, but they are also quite marginal. (The last time they found a political party, they received less than one percent of the votes.)

 

The other group that is sympathetic to pluralism is the Muslim conservatives who make up almost half of the country. They are not bleeding heart liberals, but they have a good frame of reference in the Ottoman Empire, in which the Kurds had all the freedoms they now yearn for.

 

.... I just know that the tree of democracy only grows on a soil nourished by history and tradition.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=the-next-big-thing-turkish-separatism-2010-07-27 

==================

I think it is a very critical times in Turkey.. It is either live together or separate..

2.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 12:57 pm

We didn´t seem to care whether someone was Kurdish or not years ago (at least for me. I had a close friend at uni. I learnt years later after finishing uni that he was Kurdish.). Now we are wondering if this guy or that can be a Kurdish when we look at the faces we see everywhere thanks to PKK.We are wondering if they are supporting PKK. We are wondering if they may be planning/supporting some terrorists acts.

 

What are the benefits of living with Kurds together? What do they contribute to us? They are reproducing like rabbits in low income families. It´s very unlikely for them to get a good education. It´s very unlikely for them to contribute much to this country.

 

They all walk, shout, throw stones at police, at buildings, they vandalise, they kill our soldiers and policemen. What´s the benefit of living with them really?

 

3.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 04:01 pm

I think there is a lot more to Turkey than this issue. 



Edited (7/28/2010) by Elisabeth

4.       alameda
3499 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 07:39 pm

 

Quoting Elisabeth

I think there is a lot more to Turkey than this issue. 

 

I do too....and it´s really tedious to have this brought up in this manner over and over and over again. It is provocative.

libralady and peacetrain liked this message
5.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 07:48 pm

They, us, this, that. If you didn´t wonder if somebody was a Kurd, a Turk, Laz, Arab, or whatever before, then you shouldn´t wonder the same now. It´s counter productive, just like bringing the discussions about PKK up so much that even Apo himself would get bored by it.

By the way, I think it´s also very strange to address the Kurds as "they" as if it is one group of stone throwing people. Not all Kurds are PKK members. Most Kurds are your co-workers, friends, etc., who contribute to Turkish society in a normal way. Viewing the Kurds as "them" is only causing the ´good´ Kurds to have to deal with racism. This racism will in turn bring more people to PKK, making the circle complete. If you want, hate PKK. Don´t hate Kurds.



Edited (7/28/2010) by barba_mama [read a piece in a post i didn´t like :p]

6.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 09:41 pm

Well..

I appreciate your inputs..

And I am aware that what is important to me to post here at a particular time my not be very entertaining yet important for others..

But we have to respect each other´s opinion on this matter.

 

7.       lemon
1374 posts
 28 Jul 2010 Wed 11:34 pm

 

Quoting si++

What are the benefits of living with Kurds together? What do they contribute to us? They are reproducing like rabbits in low income families. It´s very unlikely for them to get a good education. It´s very unlikely for them to contribute much to this country.

 

They all walk, shout, throw stones at police, at buildings, they vandalise, they kill our soldiers and policemen. What´s the benefit of living with them really?

 

 

You be careful. This is what exactly some europeans think about muslims who are in europe. So before you say A always have an option B.

To me you sound like an elitist (illuminati). They will measure you by your measures. We had some fellows in the past in europe who decided that non-aryan nations were useless therefore were to be killed.

 

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8.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 01:34 am

A poem by Sylvia Plath. I was spoiled for choice with regard to where I should post it.

 

Admonition

If you dissect a bird

To diagram the tongue

You´ll cut the chord

Articulating song.

 

If you flay a beast

To marvel at the mane

You´ll wreck the rest

From which the fur began.

 

If you pluck out the heart

To find what makes it move,

You´ll halt the clock

That syncopates our love.


 

 



Edited (7/29/2010) by peacetrain

9.       vineyards
1954 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 03:20 am

Thehandsom, you are not helping out anything by opening these threads. If there is anyone benefiting from these persistent posts it must be you. You start the fire and play the victim thereafter. 

You know how sensitive people have become over the recent murders. No matter how much you would like to distort it, the truth is those who have lost their lives were the legitimate servicemen of a sovereign nation which has every right to hold on to its internationally recognized territory. We do not need to understand the motives of the terrorists, we do not need to focus on the reasons when the emergency dictates that the consequences be taken care of.  Every God damn country in the world have minorities. These people either emigrated from other countries or existed even before its current inhabitants. From Spain to Finland, from the US to India minorities exist with varying levels of contendness of the role they are playing in the host country. For example, in Finland, Lapps enjoy the right to speak and learn their own languages but the Finnish government is unable to find instructors for these people. The number of Lapps in Finland is about 4400. What a big problem? The affluence of the Lapps is also several folds lower than the average Finnish family. On the whole, they are not enjoying similar standards with the Finns. Finland is a European country, it may set an example to other countries in terms of social welfare, order of living etc. This affluent Scandinavian country has not been able to offer similar standards to some 4000 people. Alas, these people had long been living in Finland when the Finns came to Finland some 2000 years ago.

 

We are talking about a country of 72 million people. This country is located in a geography where civilizations meet. Unfortunately though, civilizations don´t usually meet merrily. Instead there have always been the threat of all-consuming wars to be fought on multiple fronts which makes life difficult for Turkey economically. 

The Kurdish minority is not a minority at all. In the East, they form the majority and they have  a hefty 15 million share in Turkey´s population (just an estimation). They live in the highlands which are practically inaccessible in the winter months. Turkey takes new initiatives, makes investments in the region. For many years, the entire Eastern provinces are considered first priority development areas and substantial tax incentives are offered by the government. Nevertheless, Turkish investers don´t want to invest in the East. Would you invest your money in some remote war-stricken, unstable corner? 



Edited (7/29/2010) by vineyards

lemon liked this message
10.       lemon
1374 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 06:10 am

I have to agree with Vineyards here. Enough is enough. I think everyone is tired with these endless discussions over the same issues. With such activities you will make even your friends hate your actions that are not necessarily wrong. Take a break, man!

11.       si++
3785 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 11:22 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

They, us, this, that. If you didn´t wonder if somebody was a Kurd, a Turk, Laz, Arab, or whatever before, then you shouldn´t wonder the same now. It´s not possible anymore, unfortunately. It´s counter productive, just like bringing the discussions about PKK up so much that even Apo himself would get bored by it.

By the way, I think it´s also very strange to address the Kurds as "they" as if it is one group of stone throwing people. Not all Kurds are PKK members. Yes it´scorrect, absolutely but the perception now is that Kurds=PKK and it´s getting widespread.Most Kurds are your co-workers, friends, etc., who contribute to Turkish society in a normal way. Viewing the Kurds as "them" is only causing the ´good´ Kurds to have to deal with racism. This racism will in turn bring more people to PKK, making the circle complete. Yes exactly this is what is happening now. And it seems to me that it´s what PKK want to accomplish and they are getting what they want. If you want, hate PKK. Don´t hate Kurds.

 

We just saw the sparks of a civil war between Turks and Kurds where 4 policemen had been killed by PKK. Turks got organised in big numbers and attacked the buildings believed to be owned by Kurds and BDP (the Kurdish party) office. This is very serious. It may go out of control next time or the other.

 

12.       si++
3785 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 11:24 am

 

Quoting lemon

I have to agree with Vineyards here. Enough is enough. I think everyone is tired with these endless discussions over the same issues. With such activities you will make even your friends hate your actions that are not necessarily wrong. Take a break, man!

 

Good morning lemon, how are you doing?

13.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 11:31 am

 

Quoting lemon

I have to agree with Vineyards here. Enough is enough. I think everyone is tired with these endless discussions over the same issues. With such activities you will make even your friends hate your actions that are not necessarily wrong. Take a break, man!

 

I am simply "rejecting" what you are saying..

When I think my country is at the border of descending into a civil war, I dont wish to write about pandas...

If I can prevent one person to be aware of what is coming or might come and prevent that person taking a knife and attacking Kurds or a Kurds attacking a Turk I will consider myself successful. Even if it does not happen, I will think ´I did everything I could´. 

That purpose is more important to me keeping friends or if the ´friends´ will  hate me for that, that is entirely their business...

That is as simple as that!!

As one of my friends mentioned it some where else  as " we could have prevented, can we do it now?" . That friend was referring to the incident, my country´s ´racist/fascist party´ organised 32 years ago..

Maras incident..   In 1978 the same party which is trying to create civil war now, MHP, -the party my country men  could NOT condemn their actions HERE as they are our own racists- organised, attacked and killed many alevi  people because they were simply alevis.. They killed  hundreds!!! Many were hacked to death!! Children/women/men!!  Now they are trying to do the same!!! 

So, coming back to your post: I am sorry but I am rejecting it..

14.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 01:19 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

When I think my country is at the border of descending into a civil war, I dont wish to write about pandas...

If I can prevent one person to be aware of what is coming or might come and prevent that person taking a knife and attacking Kurds or a Kurds attacking a Turk I will consider myself successful. Even if it does not happen, I will think ´I did everything I could´. 

That purpose is more important to me keeping friends or if the ´friends´ will  hate me for that, that is entirely their business...

H,

Do you really believe you are making some kind of personal sacrifice for the good of your homeland?  Your sentiment may be admirable, but I´m seriously worried that some will see you as a budding megalomaniac.

Vineyards muses that people come here to discuss and hopefully find some convergence of opinions . . . well maybe they do, but every so often the "calm" is shattered by the storm that is YOU!  I´m not talking about your political bent or ideals, I´m talking about your tactics.  Your tactics are counterproductive, if you did but know it.  That´s a shame too because non Turks like me could learn a great deal from you and your political counterparts.  YES, they must shoulder some of the responsibility for the way the threads descend into mayhem, but, more often than not YOU start these fights. You whip yourself and others into a frenzy. Result? Divergence

You claimed recently that people should respect the opinions of others.  It seems to me you want people to respect your opinions but where is the respect when you accuse people of ignorance, of not reading?  I think you enjoy the debates and that´s why you always come back for more.  It is precisely because your "adversaries" here are not ignorant and do read, that you enjoy the meaty debates.  If they were not interested in Turkish politics, if they did not read, if they were ignorant, you would not keep coming back for more.  You relish those debates . . . and that´s fine, so long as you don´t flame. They may not agree with your "proofs" and they may put forward "proofs" of their own and vice versa . . . that doesn´t give you the right to insult their intelligence the way you do.  Of course you are insulted too . . . WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? (actually I think you DO expect it . . . you WANT it).

I know exactly what your response will be too, because your activity cycle here is very predictable.

I´ve tried to think of an oxymoron to describe you . . . in the end I´ve decided that you are a living, breathing oxymoron in your own right.

You say you have done all you can. Are you sure about that?  If you are so passionate/anguished/desperate/worried/angry/fired up about Turkey´s future, why not take steps to fulfill your destiny (now you´ve got me doing it {#emotions_dlg.rant}) ?  Take up the cudgel. Perhaps your place is in Turkey, on the political stage.  Perhaps you are a big fish in this relatively small cyber pool that is TLC. Perhaps your talents are wasted here. Perhaps you are Turkey´s missing link. I´m serious, is there really anything to stop you? 

Sacrifice H, sacrifice . . .

 

 

 



Edited (7/29/2010) by peacetrain [divergence]

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15.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 02:43 pm

 

Quoting peacetrain

 

H,

Do you really believe you are making some kind of personal sacrifice for the good of your homeland?  Your sentiment may be admirable, but I´m seriously worried that some will see you as a budding megalomaniac.

Vineyards muses that people come here to discuss and hopefully find some convergence of opinions . . . well maybe they do, but every so often the "calm" is shattered by the storm that is YOU!  I´m not talking about your political bent or ideals, I´m talking about your tactics.  Your tactics are counterproductive, if you did but know it.  That´s a shame too because non Turks like me could learn a great deal from you and your political counterparts.  YES, they must shoulder some of the responsibility for the way the threads descend into mayhem, but, more often than not YOU start these fights. You whip yourself and others into a frenzy. Result? Divergence

You claimed recently that people should respect the opinions of others.  It seems to me you want people to respect your opinions but where is the respect when you accuse people of ignorance, of not reading?  I think you enjoy the debates and that´s why you always come back for more.  It is precisely because your "adversaries" here are not ignorant and do read, that you enjoy the meaty debates.  If they were not interested in Turkish politics, if they did not read, if they were ignorant, you would not keep coming back for more.  You relish those debates . . . and that´s fine, so long as you don´t flame. They may not agree with your "proofs" and they may put forward "proofs" of their own and vice versa . . . that doesn´t give you the right to insult their intelligence the way you do.  Of course you are insulted too . . . WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? (actually I think you DO expect it . . . you WANT it).

I know exactly what your response will be too, because your activity cycle here is very predictable.

I´ve tried to think of an oxymoron to describe you . . . in the end I´ve decided that you are a living, breathing oxymoron in your own right.

You say you have done all you can. Are you sure about that?  If you are so passionate/anguished/desperate/worried/angry/fired up about Turkey´s future, why not take steps to fulfill your destiny (now you´ve got me doing it {#emotions_dlg.rant}) ?  Take up the cudgel. Perhaps your place is in Turkey, on the political stage.  Perhaps you are a big fish in this relatively small cyber pool that is TLC. Perhaps your talents are wasted here. Perhaps you are Turkey´s missing link. I´m serious, is there really anything to stop you? 

Sacrifice H, sacrifice . . .

 

 

 

 

I dont think it is worth to reply..

I dont think "calm" is that important for me when certain people look that the incidents through their "....-bans" glasses.

I dont think convergence of opinions will be always be a good thing with those people wearing those glasses..

I will post the subjects I believe is important. And yes..I have that sentiment and I think it is nothing to do with being a megalomaniac.. 

Dont even go into level of swearing i get here..I only respond to very little amount..

So dont play that game.. Some times, there are at least 4/5 people swear at me here.. At the same time.. for what? just because I post something remind what the racism is..

Why do you want to stop me anyway?? why? and how can you explain ´stopping somebody expressing their opinions´ to your students for example?

Anyway..

I dont really CARE what you think and ´ahh calm is shuttered. and it is all you.´ . I dont really value that calm either..

I would post the subject regarding racism/KKK and blacks  if I was an American, I would be against nazis if i was in 1945 and a German.   

As I said.. I will post whatever I believe is important..

 



Edited (7/29/2010) by thehandsom

16.       vineyards
1954 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 03:18 pm

What do you mean by race-bans? Do you imply we are a bunch of racists here? I am pretty sure this is your meaning. So, please remove that phrase or I will delete it myself.

17.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 03:24 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

What do you mean by race-bans? Do you imply we are a bunch of racists here? I am pretty sure this is your meaning. So, please remove that phrase or I will delete it myself.

 

really?

18.       vineyards
1954 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 03:27 pm

Thank you for editing.

19.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 03:30 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

You be careful. This is what exactly some europeans think about muslims who are in europe. So before you say A always have an option B.

To me you sound like an elitist (illuminati). They will measure you by your measures. We had some fellows in the past in europe who decided that non-aryan nations were useless therefore were to be killed.

 

There is a definition of those type of Europeans here.

Most of the time they are called racists!!!!

 

20.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 06:22 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

I dont think it is worth to reply..

I dont think "calm" is that important for me when certain people look that the incidents through their "....-bans" glasses.

I dont think convergence of opinions will be always be a good thing with those people wearing those glasses..

I will post the subjects I believe is important. And yes..I have that sentiment and I think it is nothing to do with being a megalomaniac.. 

Dont even go into level of swearing i get here..I only respond to very little amount..Predictable . . . all part of your cycle.

So dont play that game.. Some times, there are at least 4/5 people swear at me here.. At the same time.. for what? just because I post something remind what the racism is.. aah diddums!

Why do you want to stop me anyway?? why? and how can you explain ´stopping somebody expressing their opinions´ to your students for example?

Anyway..

I dont really CARE what you think and ´ahh calm is shuttered. and it is all you.´ . I dont really value that calm either..

I would post the subject regarding racism/KKK and blacks  if I was an American, I would be against nazis if i was in 1945 and a German.   

As I said.. I will post whatever I believe is important..

 

 

I rest my case . . . predictable and a perfect example of a walking, living, breathing oxymoron. For something not worth a reply, you certainly gave it your time.

When I said "is there anything to stop you?" I meant is there anything stopping you from taking your place in the world of politics in Turkey?  Seriously, what is there to stop you from doing so?

So . . . I never mentioned anything about stopping you from speaking, quite the contrary.

btw If you could just refrain from uttering "racist" , "racism"  etc.  there may be hope for a cure for your Tourette´s. I mentioned your tactics earlier, but sometimes you only have the tic .

That´s me done here. I have to go . . . places to go, people to see, children to gag .. .

 

 

21.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Jul 2010 Thu 06:31 pm

 

Quoting peacetrain

 

 

I rest my case . . . predictable and a perfect example of a walking, living, breathing oxymoron. For something not worth a reply, you certainly gave it your time.

When I said "is there anything to stop you?" I meant is there anything stopping you from taking your place in the world of politics in Turkey?  Seriously, what is there to stop you from doing so?

So . . . I never mentioned anything about stopping you from speaking, quite the contrary.

btw If you could just refrain from uttering "racist" , "racism"  etc.  there may be hope for a cure for your Tourette´s. I mentioned your tactics earlier, but sometimes you only have the tic .

That´s me done here. I have to go . . . places to go, people to see, children to gag .. .

 

 

 

Mine was not a reply at all..

As I said, I really dont value what you think..(And you know it very well)

Bye!! {#emotions_dlg.bye}

 



Edited (7/29/2010) by thehandsom

22.       libralady
5152 posts
 30 Jul 2010 Fri 08:09 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

Well..

I appreciate your inputs..

And I am aware that what is important to me to post here at a particular time my not be very entertaining yet important for others..

But we have to respect each other´s opinion on this matter.

 

 

 Well said!  Perhaps you should heed your own words!

23.       libralady
5152 posts
 30 Jul 2010 Fri 08:11 am

Kurd Free Turkey - sounds like some sort of food.... like sugar free jam, or gluten free bread, or fat free yoghurt...... {#emotions_dlg.rolleyes}

24.       si++
3785 posts
 30 Jul 2010 Fri 08:56 am

 

Quoting libralady

Kurd Free Turkey - sounds like some sort of food.... like sugar free jam, or gluten free bread, or fat free yoghurt...... {#emotions_dlg.rolleyes}

 

It´s becoming yoghurt with vinegar lately.{#emotions_dlg.sad}

25.       libralady
5152 posts
 05 Aug 2010 Thu 06:18 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

It´s becoming yoghurt with vinegar lately.{#emotions_dlg.sad}

 

Yup........... tart and unpalettable {#emotions_dlg.puking}

 

26.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 05 Aug 2010 Thu 09:02 pm

 

Quoting libralady

Kurd Free Turkey - sounds like some sort of food.... like sugar free jam, or gluten free bread, or fat free yoghurt...... {#emotions_dlg.rolleyes}

 

 Ohhhhh...like "Turkey Lite?"{#emotions_dlg.lol_fast}

27.       oeince
582 posts
 06 Aug 2010 Fri 11:16 am

Turkish citizens wish a terror free Turkey.

Nothing more!

 

 

28.       miranshaways
5 posts
 01 Jun 2012 Fri 07:18 pm

.



Edited (2/6/2013) by miranshaways

29.       vineyards
1954 posts
 02 Jun 2012 Sat 12:18 pm

Miranshaway, I have to ask you whether you have bothered reading a history book of any kind?

The Ottoman history is full of conflicts and riots involving Kurds. In other words, these two communities have hardly ever trusted each other for long periods.

True, there has never been a peaceful Middle East. The Middle East has never been able to make their own decisions. All of their crucial decisions were made by the caring British and French protector angels who drew their borders for them, determined who would control the oil hence the money and pay tribute to them in exchange of their self-proclaimed police work.

There can be no peace in a region whose streets are either besieged or invaded periodically. Just ask yourself if there secret agents and provocators in your streets? Are your temples getting bombed routinely? Are you beaten or humiliated by invading soldiers day in day out who take pictures with your uncle´s corpse?

The Middle is a de facto vassal state of the US.



Edited (6/2/2012) by vineyards

30.       vineyards
1954 posts
 03 Jun 2012 Sun 02:46 am

Barba_Mama, this world is a very complicated place when it comes to international relations.

There are certain things which you think I am taking for granted; it took me quite a while to come to grasp of them. You are trying a balanced approach, mostly sitting on the fence, idealizing the sides as a mixture of right and wrong and you are right up to a certain extent.

Nevertheless, conflicts between nations or communities are far from being simple matters that can be settled with this approach. They are like an iceberg; instead of ice, they are made up of hatred. You can´t judge it by what it looks like because much of it is concealed from eyes.

Take up another angle and consider, why there should be so much hatred and violence in the world? There are borders that isolate people from one another or in the case of civil wars, people involved usually have long spells of peace and jointly formed civilizations. Human nature is neither good nor bad. Unless provoked collectively, they don´t usually harm other people.

If there is war in this world, it is seldom caused by those who seem to be doing the fight. There are known fire starters, they produce the weapons, they have the intelligence, and they have a global coverage of those things. Wars are actually often started by the powers that be. Every now and them, you hear them warmongering, inviting troops from their allies. They are the ones with bases all around the world. Their intelligence services far exceed the reach of the BBC. In short, you need to be a superpower to decide who will kill whom.

Kurds in Turkey is a long story but rest assured, in every episode of this conflict, there is the hand of powers that be. It is a multi-billion dollar project. Without the support of the secret services, they couldn´t survive a day let alone owning expensive weapons, logistic and intelligence channels.

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31.       vineyards
1954 posts
 03 Jun 2012 Sun 02:48 am

I think there is an anomaly in the message system. When I posted an answer to Barba Mama´s message it appeared as if she posted it. When I deleted that one both messages disappeared.

 

32.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Jun 2012 Mon 06:48 am

 

Quoting vineyards

I think there is an anomaly in the message system. When I posted an answer to Barba Mama´s message it appeared as if she posted it. When I deleted that one both messages disappeared.

 

 

reported to Admin, sorry about the problem.

33.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 04 Jun 2012 Mon 01:53 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

Barba_Mama, this world is a very complicated place when it comes to international relations.

There are certain things which you think I am taking for granted; it took me quite a while to come to grasp of them. You are trying a balanced approach, mostly sitting on the fence, idealizing the sides as a mixture of right and wrong and you are right up to a certain extent.

Nevertheless, conflicts between nations or communities are far from being simple matters that can be settled with this approach. They are like an iceberg; instead of ice, they are made up of hatred. You can´t judge it by what it looks like because much of it is concealed from eyes.

Take up another angle and consider, why there should be so much hatred and violence in the world? There are borders that isolate people from one another or in the case of civil wars, people involved usually have long spells of peace and jointly formed civilizations. Human nature is neither good nor bad. Unless provoked collectively, they don´t usually harm other people.

If there is war in this world, it is seldom caused by those who seem to be doing the fight. There are known fire starters, they produce the weapons, they have the intelligence, and they have a global coverage of those things. Wars are actually often started by the powers that be. Every now and them, you hear them warmongering, inviting troops from their allies. They are the ones with bases all around the world. Their intelligence services far exceed the reach of the BBC. In short, you need to be a superpower to decide who will kill whom.

Kurds in Turkey is a long story but rest assured, in every episode of this conflict, there is the hand of powers that be. It is a multi-billion dollar project. Without the support of the secret services, they couldn´t survive a day let alone owning expensive weapons, logistic and intelligence channels.

 

Just because I feel that the truth lies between the "they are bad, they are evil, it´s them versus them" approach, does not mean I´m sitting on the sidelines. I just think I´m being realistic. Nothing in the real world is black and white. I also think that powers to be can start a conflict without a base of discontent being there. They can add fuel to the fire, but the fire needs to be there already!

For example, the PKK influences Kurdish people negatively, making them even more angry. BUT, if Kurdish people were very happy with their lives to start with, and treated equally as the rest of the Turkish citizens, the PKK would only be heard by nobody, and dismissed by Kurdish people as a bunch of weirdos. When we talk about Kurds, we seem to focus on PKK. I hate that focus, because it is not the everyday reality of the average Kurd. What I see as "the Kurdish conflict" consists of PKK, but ALSO of the way Kurdish people are treated sometimes. I know several restaurant owners in a certain Turkish resort. They all got permits to open a teras in front of their restaurant...EXCEPT for the Kurdish restaurant owners who were born in the East! They had to go to the court to battle the Belediye, and only after that they were allowed half of the space the other restaurant owners were assigned. THIS is also part of the conflict, and people need to open their eyes for this reality too. For the average Kurd, it is not about bombs or wanting to kill people, but about being treated equally, and having rights to be themselves.



Edited (6/4/2012) by barba_mama

34.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Jun 2012 Mon 09:10 pm

This is not something unilateral Barba, Kurds often act as a community or a tribe and they tend to monopolize where they are doing business. Wherever there is a Kurdish community in charge of something, there is no room for Turks. You may think this would be a generalization but your example is no different. Truth be told, these two communities hate each other. Turks consider Kurds as a boil on their heads. There is no way out for either community. Maybe, the Kurds are waiting for the day when the US offers them a portion of Turkey on a golden plate. Just as they did in Iraq.

 

35.       si++
3785 posts
 05 Jun 2012 Tue 09:06 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

Just because I feel that the truth lies between the "they are bad, they are evil, it´s them versus them" approach, does not mean I´m sitting on the sidelines. I just think I´m being realistic. Nothing in the real world is black and white. I also think that powers to be can start a conflict without a base of discontent being there. They can add fuel to the fire, but the fire needs to be there already!

For example, the PKK influences Kurdish people negatively, making them even more angry. BUT, if Kurdish people were very happy with their lives to start with, and treated equally as the rest of the Turkish citizens, the PKK would only be heard by nobody, and dismissed by Kurdish people as a bunch of weirdos. When we talk about Kurds, we seem to focus on PKK. I hate that focus, because it is not the everyday reality of the average Kurd. What I see as "the Kurdish conflict" consists of PKK, but ALSO of the way Kurdish people are treated sometimes. I know several restaurant owners in a certain Turkish resort. They all got permits to open a teras in front of their restaurant...EXCEPT for the Kurdish restaurant owners who were born in the East! They had to go to the court to battle the Belediye, and only after that they were allowed half of the space the other restaurant owners were assigned. THIS is also part of the conflict, and people need to open their eyes for this reality too. For the average Kurd, it is not about bombs or wanting to kill people, but about being treated equally, and having rights to be themselves.

 

Where have you seen it? Do you think it is the same behavior everywhere. I have a restaurant near to my house owned by Kurds and they are all over the street for example (more than their Turkish neighbours).

 

Adam25 liked this message
36.       burakk
309 posts
 03 Apr 2013 Wed 07:34 pm

pkk is not kurds

MehmetK liked this message
37.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Apr 2013 Wed 08:02 pm

 

Quoting burakk

pkk is not kurds

 

Agreed..

Most probably, they are from Republic of Molossia..

38.       burakk
309 posts
 04 Apr 2013 Thu 12:36 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Agreed..

Most probably, they are from Republic of Molossia..

 

 

 saying kurds are pkk is as dumb as saying Muslims are hizbullah or Turks are ibda-c

MehmetK liked this message
39.       burakk
309 posts
 04 Apr 2013 Thu 12:41 pm

even dumber

40.       Treize
3 posts
 15 Feb 2014 Sat 01:25 pm

I never really understood the resentment towards the Kurds.

 

The Turkish Republic was founded on the principle of one nation, one identity, one language. This is ofcourse problematic when you have people like the Kurds who have a distinct culture and language. They appear to be a proud people who value their own culture and language, unlike the Lazes and Arabs who do not seem to value the survival of their own languages very much (hench they are dying out).

Ofcourse a great many people in Turkey uphold the (Kemalist) state ideology in which there is no place for a Kurdish identity or language but I am not very sure the resentment towards Kurds is:

A.) because they do not wish to assimilate into ´Turkishness´ (and fight for that if neccesary); or

B.) because the Kurds have an old-fashioned, tribal culture which is ´backwards´ with large families (causing poverty), honour killings and those kinds of things. Also Kurds behaving badly in cities outside of the ´Kurdish homeland´-region.

 

Could it be a combination?

MehmetK liked this message
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