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170.       alameda
3499 posts
 07 Nov 2010 Sun 05:10 pm

Of course no human should be worshiped, but it´s obvious some have very special talents that have greater impact than others. These are people who are in tune with the time, have special talents and are inspired.

There are authors who changed literature, painters who changed painting (Rembrandt), dancers who changed dance (Isadora Duncan)....and political leaders who changed politics.....these people had vision and strength of character to implement their vision.

Many of us in the US are looking for a new FDR or Lincoln, we had hopes Obama would be more like them. Of course countries need strong leaders. Who wants a wimpy leader...? Can you deny the impact of Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr?

Remember, even in Democratic societies, leaders are needed and are elected....and nobody wants a weak leader.

Worship, no, but respect certainly is in order.

Quoting thehandsom

 +1000

I agree with what you are saying above..

It is quite disappointing to see people STILL think societies need strong leaders.. I don´t think you can find this type of ´we need a strong leader´ arguments in developed societies.. It is almost masochistic.. It is same as the story I mentioned in one of my posts: Our leader is our everything and we are all ´zeros´ comparing to him.. (Hasan Ali Yucel-Ataturk story).

 

slavica, turkishcobra, mltm and bydand liked this message
171.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 07 Nov 2010 Sun 08:17 pm

 

Quoting alameda

Worship, no, but respect certainly is in order.

 

And that´s the whole point

172.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 07 Nov 2010 Sun 11:33 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

+1000

I agree with what you are saying above..

It is quite disappointing to see people STILL think societies need strong leaders.. I don´t think you can find this type of ´we need a strong leader´ arguments in developed societies.. It is almost masochistic.. It is same as the story I mentioned in one of my posts: Our leader is our everything and we are all ´zeros´ comparing to him.. (Hasan Ali Yucel-Ataturk story).

I think this type of ´desire to have a strong leader´ is coming from Ottoman times.. There was the sultan and the sultan´s subjects. Everybody was his subjects and the sultan was worshipped.  Of course, suddenly, some people thought that ´we need some one so that these people can keep worshipping´. And the ´worshipping Ataturk´ came into action...

I am not entirely sure Ataturk himself wanted it, in the first place!! 

But anyway.. It was nearly 100 years ago..The times are different.. People who think worshipping Ataturk is normal and accusing others  for being traitor, should realise they are portraying themselves a tad bit backwards. They should stop using the name of Ataturk for their political achievement  and leave him in peace in his grave..

In the end, a strong democracy can only flourish in a strong civil society..

That is what we need.

 

 

 

This is total trash and extremely ill meant, as usual.

Sultans were never worshipped; you could say, they were respected as the Caliphs.

Even Prophet Muhammad himself was never worshipped among moslems.

173.       vineyards
1954 posts
 07 Nov 2010 Sun 11:53 pm

This reminds me of that old phrase:

Pek de mağrur olma Padişahım, senden büyük Allah var.

Don´t be so prudent my Sultan, God is bigger than you.

174.       oeince
582 posts
 08 Nov 2010 Mon 02:27 am

Why do Turkish ordinary people charge higher tax burden than rich Turks but the English people pay relatively fair taxes?

In order England had better leaders or the society took the responsibility of their lifes and made the King to sign Magna Carta?

Many people choose the side of a leader! What if the leader is wrong? Isn´t it more rational to support his rights and criticise the wrongs? Why do we have to create reference points? Why do people get angry when a person criticises his/her leader? Do we actually try to feel like we are a part of his power?

We need people who says my power comes from my values and who are brave enogh to criticise his leader if he acts against these values.

175.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 08 Nov 2010 Mon 03:04 am

I am assuming that we are not talking about Ataturk himself but  talking about worshipping Ataturk or his semi god status. Of course he had a brilliant personality, he was a perfect soldier, an immaculate strategist, a staunch westernizer, a great politician at his time etc..

We are talking about how wrong to elevate a human being to a semi god status and teaching/brainwashing people with this idea of ´Ataturk is everything, the greatest´ etc  I hope (btw..I can go and dig up many speaches or many poems written for him regarding how he was regarded by some people in Turkey to prove how he was worshipped).  What we are talking about is nothing to do with the respect towards Ataturk himself.


The problem here is his so called followers who think they must protect him with laws and with actions like banning you tube and brainwashing people as if he is a semi god..etc and their actions ie banning web sites, jailing people etc..


That is wrong.

That is seriously wrong..

Insisting that "no it is normal because we need to protect him/his memories by banning web sites and putting people in jail with laws" is wrong too and it shows not ´only level of brainwashing´ but how blind and twisted we can get..
In the end, the idea of trying to protect a person´s respect with things such as laws or with bans  is not a good idea.
You will not succeed and more over, you will damage the subject, you are trying to protect, more.
According to my opinion, Ataturk has achieved many things, he has done many great things for us.  He does not need protection with laws or bans..

176.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Nov 2010 Mon 07:57 am

With a little bit knowledge of Turkey´s near history, you could point out to the train of thought that resulted in the formation of laws preventing people from insulting Atatürk.

The government established by Atatürk was a result of the organized efforts of a patriotic group with roots in the Ottoman Empire. This group was essentially formed in the Balkans therefore represented more or less a Balkan type of patriotism which was in conflict with the Imperial policies which were more Islamic than being Turkish.

These policies were also more modern in the period they occured, since the bond of religion for the Muslims was getting weaker following centuries of neglect, lack of proper organization and more essentially a common target. Nations and communities were seeking ways to liberate themselves. This is a process which still continues even today.

The new political formation attempted to take advantage of the remnants of the religious bond and produced a new target that appealed to everyone. Misak-ı Milli Sınırları (Borders of the National Pact) pointed out to a map including the areas where Turks had formed the majority (except the Kurdish areas who were then in the same camp).

There were other options defended by other people. They did everything to stop the realization of this plan. They attempted to assasinate Ataturk several times. They collaborated with the occupying enemy forces. They did all of this in the name of God. Even today, we witness acts of vandalism against statues or monuments depicting Atatürk.

As it is seen, there has been a very painful transformation marked with conflicts and intolerance. Atatürk changed so many things in this country and he crushed the resistance shown against his attempts in a rather stern way. He was essentially a Jacobean leader who would do anything for the love of his country. It is quite evident that the new nation was very dear to him and he probably felt himself as the father of his people who were formed of mostly ignorant, neglected and deprived people and needed his guidance.

He put a number of rights and values on table. They were predominantly humane principles which we largely take for granted today. Those included suffrage for women, a democratic republic that allowed people to elect and to be elected; eradication of religious institutions called "tarikats". He pushed these rights and measures as we may call them in a recessionist climate. Recessionists attempts therefore were considered the main enemy of the new regime and laws were passed to prevent them.

 

 

177.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 08 Nov 2010 Mon 11:20 am

I think I mentioned it once or twice about the lack of historical knowledge of my country´s people. 

Apart from the wide spread ignorance about what happened and twittering the same things like parrots  as if trying to prove ´yes, we are all products of the same brainwashing´, people who are trying to defend these ridiculous laws and bans for the name of Ataturk are embarrassing our country Ataturk build and people of this country.   

Some people say that ´If Ataturk was alive, he would slap these people who call themselves Ataturk supporters, on the face!!´. 

Ataturk does not need these laws.

What he has done is enough for his name to be remembered and respected forever. 

178.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Nov 2010 Mon 01:07 pm

Deleted my message. 

 



Edited (11/8/2010) by vineyards

179.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 08 Nov 2010 Mon 03:35 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

I don´t know what Ataturk would do to his so called supporters were he alive today but I might want to beat you to a pulp because of this irritating style you have. I am sure those parrots and brain washed souls would not hesitate to do the same and that has little bearing on what period you live in. 

There is a paradox in your case, you think you are standing against something and advocating a good  cause (somehow yours is always the best one) but all you are getting in the end is negative reaction. Why don´t you open up your eyes and realize this counter-productive style of yours.

 

 

 

I think you need a shrink!!

You should stop posting these personal remarks..

They are getting boring!!!

 

180.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 08 Nov 2010 Mon 04:17 pm

I am locking this thread because of personal insults and attacks. 

libralady liked this message
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