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80.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 02:20 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

Oh, I wouldn´t swear at anyone, that´s not my style. Ok, I might be guilty of an occassional "idiot" comment but I´d never call someone names. Still it doesn´t mean I never pass judgements. Quite contrary, if I don´t like something, I say it. The difference between name calling and criticising lies in the language and means used. My favourite way to get my point across is ridicule, it works better than swearing, which seems a bit too boorish.

I think some laws in Turkey are anti-democratic and certainly do nothing but ridicule the person they´re trying to protect. You know, real heroes protect themselves by living a life nobody can find a reason to criticise. Turning a regular human being into a godlike creature only makes them seem weak and pitiful. It´s amusing to see an 80 million country taught to love and respect the memory of a guy who had his faults like everyone else. There have been systems like this, ie 3rd Reich, Castro´s Cuba or Stalin´s Russia. In all of these countries "not loving the leader" was considered a coup d´etat. From a perspective, though, all "heroes" were as pitiful and ridiculous as the laws that protected them.

Again, hero´s memory protects itself. If it can´t then it´as not a hero, just a propaganda device...

 

Yes we have turned into a godlike creature and yeah he was an human but you know what? I don´t have any problem with his godlike status. If I live here where we call Turkiye today we all owe it to him. If he´s godlike so be it! What´s the problem with it for you when we don´t see it as a problem??

 

81.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 02:39 pm

I don´t have a problem with Ataturk´s cult, I just find it silly. Of course you´re free to admire whoever you want, there´s nothing wrong with it. It does appear a bit dangerous when it becomes the law. I mean, shouldn´t people be able to decide themselves who their hero is?

 

Armegon - that´s the thing, Ataturk doesn´t seem to be treated like a hero but like a god. I wonder what the results of a poll asking "Whom do you like best: god or Ataturk?" would be in Turkey lol Don´t misunderstand me, I´m not obssessed with being anti-Ataturk. On the contrary, I think he did a fine job reducing religious influence in Turkey. It´s the idea of incorporating love for an actual person into your legal system that makes me laugh.

It might be a cultural thing, we Poles are anti-authoritarian and hate being forced into anything. the more propaganda we got, the more we rebelled against it. Maybe for Turks it´s different - force them to love somebody and they will, especially if you may end up in prison if you don´t follow the crowd

82.       yilgun-2010
572 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 03:09 pm

I have read the world history.

BUT:I have not seen a perfect leader like ATATÜRK in the world history. 

 

PS=

I think of course you don’t know the world history like a historian.You have no time to read it.But if you wish to learn the History of the Republic of  TÜRKİYE (since 1923) after The OTTOMAN EMPIRE (1300-1922) and other Turkish states and empires in Asia, Africa and  Europe (There were 17 Turkish states or empires ( 204 BC – AD 1922) founded by Turks in the history before the foundation of Republic of TÜRKİYE)   read the World History and these books:

1- “ Nutuk “ ( Söylev ) by M.K.ATATÜRK (1927) 

2- “ Diriliş – Çanakkale 1915 “ by Turgut Özakman (2008) 

3- “ Şu Çılgın Türkler “ by Turgut Özakman (2008) 

4- “ Cumhuriyet – Türk Mucizesi “ by Turgut Özakman (2009) 

5- “ Cumhuriyet – Türk Mucizesi – İkinci Kitap “ by Turgut Özakman (201

Bir batılı tarihçi şöyle diyor: “Türkleri dünya tarihinden silerseniz, o zaman dünya tarihi diye bir şey kalmaz.Unutmayınız ki, kim bilir, siz de belki Türk geni taşıyorsunuzdur…”.

TURKISH EMPIRES AND STATES İN THE HİSTORY:

1-BÜYÜK HUN İMPARATORLUĞU (MÖ 204-MS 216)  - Great Hun Empire (204 BC - 216 AD)

2-BATI HUN  İMPARATORLUĞU ( MS 48 - 216) - Western Hun Empire (48 - 216 AD)

3- AVRUPA HUN İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 374 - 453) -European Hun Empire (374 - 453 AD)

4-AK KOYUNLU HUN İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 420-552) - Ak (White) Hun Empire (420 - 552 AD)

5-GÖKTÜRK İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 552-745) -Gokturk Empire (552 - 745 AD)

6-AVAR İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 565-835) - Avar Empire (565 - 835 AD)

7-HAZAR İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 651-983) - Khazar (Caspian) Empire (651 - 983 AD)

8-UYGUR DEVLETİ  ( MS 745-1368) - Uygur State (745 - 1368 AD)  

9-KARAHANLI DEVLETİ (MS 940-104 - Karahanli State (940 - 1040 AD)

10-GAZNELİ SULTANLIĞI (MS 962-1183) - Gazneli Sultanate (962 - 1183 AD)

11- BÜYÜK SELÇUKLU İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 1040-1157) - Greater Seljuk Empire (1040 – 1157 AD)

12-ANADULU SELÇUKLU DEVLETİ (MS 1015-1085) – Anatolian Seljuk State ( 1015- 1085 AD)

13- HARZEMŞAH DEVLETİ (MS 1097- 1231) - Kharzem Shah State ( 1097 - 1231 AD)

14- ALTIN ORDU DEVLETİ (MS 1236-1502  - The Golden Horde (1236 - 1502 AD)

15-BÜYÜK TİMUR İMPARATRLUĞU (MS 1368-1501) - Greater Timur Empire (1368 - 1501 AD)

16-BABÜR İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 1526- 1858) - Babur Empire (1526 - 1858 AD)

17-OSMANLI İMPARATORLUĞU (MS 1299-1922) -Ottoman Empire (1299 - 1922 AD)

18-TÜRKİYE CUMHURİYETİ DEVLETİ (MS 1923- &hellip  - Republic of Turkey (1923 AD - today)  

19-KUZEY KIBRIS TÜRK CUMHURİYETİ (1983-&hellip – Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus ( 1983 AD – Today)

 

TURKS HAVE PLAYED CRUCİAL ROLES İN HİSTORY, THROUGHOUT THE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF THEİR HİSTORY.TURKS HAVE FOUNDED MORE THAN A HUNDRED SMAL AND LARGE STATES ON THE CONTİNENTS O ASİA, EUROPE AND AFRİCA.

 

İT İS WİDELY BELİEVED THAT THE TERM “TURKS” REFERS TO A PLİTİCAL ENTİTY RATHER THAN TO AN ETHNİC İDENTİTY.

THERE İS NO ANY DEFİNİTE ETHNİCAL İDENTİTY İN TURKS.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE MARRİED  PEOPLE OF ASİAN, MONGOL, SPANİSH, FRENCH, RUSSİAN, AMERİCAN, AUSTRALİAN, ARAP, ROMANİAN, JEW, SERBİAN, İTALİAN, CHİNESE, ETC.

WİTHİN TODAYS WORLDS, THERE ARE SİX İNDEPENDENT TURKİSH STATES FROM THE MODERN TURKİSH REPUBLİC, THESE İNCLUDE AZERBAİJAN, KAZAKHSTAN, KYRGYZSTAN, TÜRKMENİSTAN, UZBEKİSTAN AND THE TURKİSH REPUBLİC OF NORTHERN CYPRUS –WHİCH İS ONLY RECOGNİZED BY THE REPUBLİC OF TÜRKİYE-.

AND THERE ARE SEVERAL TURKİSH AUTONOMOUS REPUBLİCS, THESE  İNCLUDE BASHKİR, CHUVASH, TATAR, KABARDİNO-BALKARİA, KARA-KALPAK, NAKHİCHEVAN AND XİNGJİAN.

THERE ARE SEVERAL TURKİSH AUTONOMOUS REGİONS, THESE İNCLUDE THE ALTAİ REPUBLİC, KARACHAY-CHERKESSİA, KHAHASS, GAGAUZ AND NOGORNO-KARABAKH İN AJERBAİJAN WHİCH CAME UNDER ARMENİAN OCCUPATİON İN 1991.

 

SOME OTHER TURKİSH PEOPLE ARE İN THE CRİMEAN TATARS, THE KARAİM AND THE KRYMCHAKS İN THE  CRİMEAN PENİNSULA, THE MESHETİAN TURKS, THE NOGAİ AND THE KUMKY İN DAGESTAN AUTONOMOUS REPUBLİC.

İN ADDİTİON, THERE ARE SEVERAL TURKİSH-İNHABİTED REGİONS İN İRAN, IRAQ, GEORGİA, BULGARİA, GREECE, MACEDONİA, TAJİKİSTAN, AFGHANİSTAN AND WESTERN MONGOLİA.

SOME TURKİSH TRİBES MİGRATED TO EASTERN AND WESTERN EUROPE, BALKANS, AFRİCA, AMERİCA, ASİA  AND AUSTRALİA. 

AN ANOTHER RESEARCH O TURKS BY EUROPEANS:

TURKIC - TURKISH  STATES  IN HISTORY  and  OUR TİME
 
A- There was 16 Turkish empires and states founded by the Turks before the foundation  of  Republic of Türkiye  - Turkey - in history =
 
1- Asya Hun Devleti : Great Hun Empire (204 BC - 216 AD) - Teoman, Mete Han -
2- Batı Hun Devleti :  Western Hun Empire (48 - 216 AD)
3- Avrupa Hun Devleti : European Hun Empire (375 - 469 AD) - Attila
4- Ak Hunlar : Ak (White) Hun Empire (420 - 552 AD)
5- Göktürk Devleti :  Gokturk Empire (552 - 745 AD) - Bumin Kağan -
6- Avarlar : Avar Empire (565 - 835 AD)
7- Khazar (Caspian) Empire (651 - 983 AD)
8- Uygurlar : Uygur State (745 - 1368 AD) - Kutluk Bilge Kül Kağan -
9- Karahanlılar : Karahanli State (840 - 1242 AD) - Bilge Kül Kadir Han -
10- Gazneliler : Gazneli Sultanate (963 - 1187 AD) - Alp Tiğin -
11- Büyük Selçuklu Devleti : Greater Seljuk Empire (1040 - 1157 AD) - Tuğrul Bey, Çağrı Bey -
12- Harzemşahlar : Kharzem Shah State (1157 - 1231 AD)
13- The Golden Horde (1236 - 1502 AD)
14- Timurlar : Greater Timur Empire (1368 - 1501 AD)
15- Babürler : Babur Empire (1526 - 1858 AD)
16- Osmanlı İmparatorluğu : Ottoman Empire (1299 - 1923 AD) -
Ertuğrul Gazi, Osman Bey, Fatih Sultan Mehmet, Yavuz Sultan Selim, Kanuni Sultan Süleyman -
 
B- There are 7 states founded by the Turks in the world at the present time =
 
1- Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Devleti  (Republic of Turkey) – Ankara (1923 - today)
2- Özbekistan ( Uzbekistan – Taşkent )
3- Kazakistan ( Kazakhstan – Astana )
4- Kırgızistan ( Kyrgystan – Bishkek )
5- Türkmenistan ( Turkmenistan – Asgabat )
6- Azerbaycan ( Azerbaijan – Baki )
7- Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti ( Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus – Nicosia )
 
C- And there are 30 Turkish unities  ( union, identity ) in the some world countries at the present time =
-Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region ( Urumqi)
 -Others

 

 

 



Edited (11/2/2010) by yilgun-2010
Edited (11/3/2010) by yilgun-2010
Edited (11/3/2010) by yilgun-2010
Edited (11/7/2010) by yilgun-2010
Edited (11/7/2010) by yilgun-2010
Edited (11/7/2010) by yilgun-2010
Edited (12/23/2010) by yilgun-2010
Edited (12/23/2010) by yilgun-2010

83.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 05:07 pm

 

Quoting si++

Yes we have turned into a godlike creature and yeah he was an human but you know what? I don´t have any problem with his godlike status. If I live here where we call Turkiye today we all owe it to him. If he´s godlike so be it! What´s the problem with it for you when we don´t see it as a problem??

 

You have the right to treat anyone as godlike creature, but those who don´t, should also have the right not to.. would you agree? That is what Daydreamer is talking about when she talks about freedom of speech and democracy for everyone, not just you.. etc.

At the same time, I agree with you that Ataturk is special. Even though Erdogan would like to, he doesn´t have the same ´godlike´ status as Ataturk does, and it´s not Ataturk himself who´s enforcing these anti-democratic laws. Actually I think it´s ironic that Ataturk fought for freedom and democracy and now he´s being protected in anti-democratic ways. I think that if he was around, he´d end these laws and would continue to push Turkey towards more freedom. If I remember correctly though, some of these laws were started by Ataturk himself so that his reforms cannot be abolished by the oposition, and some of that is still a concern today. However, in my opinion, if there was freedom in Turkey to criticize both Islam and Ataturk, that would not be a threat. At this point there seems to be to many taboo subjects and insecurities among Turkish people and a great fear to change. Erdogan is scaremongering every day that the "turkish nation is under a threat of being uprooted".

Elisabeth liked this message
84.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 08:21 pm

Kitty got my point. A country should grant its citizens freedom to love, hate or stay indifferent to ANY person living or dead.

Yilgun - you can´t be more wrong, each single country has its Ataturk, a person who had a huge impact on how the country evolved. The difference is, not many countries, if any, ban publication of books or documents that might not be favourable to this person. Thus, if you grow up in a society that teaches only about how great a person was and doesn´t give you a chance to see the other side of the story, you will never be able to say that person is wonderful. It simply means you were given insufficient data I´ve read a nice Polish article about how speculations about Ataturk´s alcohol problems were immediately forbidden from seeing the light and has any critique of him. Not quite fair, is it? After all, it´s not like he turned Turkey into what his idea of a good country was overnight or without bloodshed. Just like all revolutionaries, he´s guilty of thousands of deaths of people who didn´t agree with him. That´s hardly unique or hero-like

When I read Turkish debates, it is like there are just two ways: either Islamic one or Kemalist one. And it´s not true. You can have a third one, and a fourth one...just like the world is not black and white, there are more than 2 ways for Turkey.

85.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 08:41 pm

 

Quoting yilgun-2010

I have read the world history.

BUT:I have not seen a perfect leader like ATATÜRK in the world history.

 

lol {#emotions_dlg.stoneage}

86.       armegon
1872 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 09:25 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

You have the right to treat anyone as godlike creature, but those who don´t, should also have the right not to.. would you agree? That is what Daydreamer is talking about when she talks about freedom of speech and democracy for everyone, not just you.. etc.

 

 

But those who do, should not have right to request not to insult to him, would you agree? Insulting to him categorized as freedom of speech and democracy for everyone??

87.       armegon
1872 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 09:32 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

I´ve read a nice Polish article about how speculations about Ataturk´s alcohol problems were immediately forbidden from seeing the light and has any critique of him. Not quite fair, is it? After all, it´s not like he turned Turkey into what his idea of a good country was overnight or without bloodshed. Just like all revolutionaries, he´s guilty of thousands of deaths of people who didn´t agree with him. That´s hardly unique or hero-like

 

Yeah that Polish article writer knows the all truth about him, perhaps he/she cheated from Rıza Nur...

88.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 10:30 pm

 

Quoting armegon

 

 

Yeah that Polish article writer knows the all truth about him, perhaps he/she cheated from Rıza Nur...

 

haha you missed the point. The article was not a statement that he actually was an alcoholic but a description of the fact that as soon as such voices were heard they were immediately silenced. Of course, how could a Polish author know the truth if even Turkish ones don´t? lol I don´t think you can find any articles or books criticising Ataturk in libraries, can you? I´ve read somewhere that even letters and diaries of Latife are securely locked in a bank and neither historians or journalists cannot get to them. What if they contain the sad reality where Ataturk spends evenings drinking and playing cards with male friends rather than his wife? Would that make him a less important person in turkish history? I doubt it. What he did was crucial for the rise of the Republic. You don´t need to make a saint of him to appreciate him. 

Democracy and freedom of speech don´t grant you the right to insult. Of course! If somebody calls you an idiot for no reason, you can sue them. But there´s a line between criticising public people and insulting them. If stating you don´t love Ataturk is considered an isult, there´s something very wrong with the law

 

stumpy liked this message
89.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 10:36 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

.. It does appear a bit dangerous when it becomes the law. I mean, shouldn´t people be able to decide themselves who their hero is?

 

 that´s the thing, Ataturk doesn´t seem to be treated like a hero but like a god. ...

It might be a cultural thing, we Poles are anti-authoritarian and hate being forced into anything. the more propaganda we got, the more we rebelled against it. Maybe for Turks it´s different - force them to love somebody and they will, especially if you may end up in prison if you don´t follow the crowd

 

It is not different in Turkey either.. I think people generically speaking are anti-authoritarian... Even the North Koreans..I am sure they are showing that solidarity because of the stick!! Even in Romania..I remember late Chauchesku was elected with  100% votes and clapped by everyone standing up, just a month before he got killed by the same people.. People have started to criticise Ataturk with the latest law changes without fearing prosecution.. Those laws are not helping anything but causing a huge embarresment for all of us..

Anyway..

One of the best analysis about people worshipping Ataturk comes from Murat Belge.
He mentions about a joke: It is about a conversation between Ataturk and Hasan Ali Yucel who was the first education minister and also Can Yucel´s father.
Ataturk asks ´what is a zero?´, Hasan Ali Yucel replies ´zero is me standing in front of you´!!


Murat Belge thinks that this was not an ordinary flattering. He think there were people around Ataturk and they really thought ´that way´ about their leader. Their feelings against Ataturk, were transformed into rituals later on with all those festivals like ´19 may youth festival; 23 April children´s festival etc´

He thinks ´if a person is able to describe himself as "I am a zero" towards the person he respects´ is up to that person..But if the message to the entire people is that ´you are nothing where as he is everything; you can not even come close to him, dont even think about it´ or the worshipping towards him is presented in this way, there is a serious defect, there is a pathology in that society.

As a matter of fact there is.

 

90.       armegon
1872 posts
 02 Nov 2010 Tue 10:45 pm

I do not think I missed the point. Did I say that article says he was alcoholic? I only mentioned that he was maybe affected by some slanderers. Of course he was drinking, he has also weak belief in traditional Islam teachings but those does not change anything about the importance of him.

It is true there is a line between criticizing and insulting, and everyone has right to comment on if the statement about him is a critical or an insult, and everyone has right to appeal the courts, in the end Turkish judiciary will decide...

Quoting Daydreamer

haha you missed the point. The article was not a statement that he actually was an alcoholic but a description of the fact that as soon as such voices were heard they were immediately silenced. Of course, how could a Polish author know the truth if even Turkish ones don´t? lol I don´t think you can find any articles or books criticising Ataturk in libraries, can you? I´ve read somewhere that even letters and diaries of Latife are securely locked in a bank and neither historians or journalists cannot get to them. What if they contain the sad reality where Ataturk spends evenings drinking and playing cards with male friends rather than his wife? Would that make him a less important person in turkish history? I doubt it. What he did was crucial for the rise of the Republic. You don´t need to make a saint of him to appreciate him. 

Democracy and freedom of speech don´t grant you the right to insult. Of course! If somebody calls you an idiot for no reason, you can sue them. But there´s a line between criticising public people and insulting them. If stating you don´t love Ataturk is considered an isult, there´s something very wrong with the law

 

 

 

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