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-i tutmak
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1.       HaNNo
74 posts
 19 Mar 2013 Tue 01:51 pm

Sağ eliyle sol kolunu tutuyor

 

Sol eliyle cep telefonu tutuyor

 

why in the 1st sentence -i suffix is added in "kol" and not in the 2nd one in "telefonu"?

 

Thanks in advance

2.       tunci
7149 posts
 19 Mar 2013 Tue 04:48 pm

 

Quoting HaNNo

Sağ eliyle sol kolunu tutuyor

 

Sol eliyle cep telefonu tutuyor

 

why in the 1st sentence -i suffix is added in "kol" and not in the 2nd one in "telefonu"?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

Sağ eliyle sol kolunu tutuyor.

 

sol  kol  = left  hand

 

sol  kol + [sol  kolu] --> his/her  left hand.

 

sol  kol +  u + n [ buffer n ] +  u [accusative marking] --> the left hand of his/hers

 

if we consider "n" as part of "un" [your] then that could mean "your hand"

sol  kol + un [your] + u [accusative marking] ---> your left hand [the left hand of yours]

 

depending on the context the possibilities would be ;

He/she is holding his/her/your left hand with his/her right hand. 

 

==============================

 

Sol eliyle cep telefonu tutuyor 

 

 cep  telefonu --> mobile phone [ this is a noun compound]  

 

 

He is holding a mobile phone with his/her left hand. 

===========================

 

If you want to say "his/her mobile phone" then you need to add another "u" [as accusative marking] .

 

Sol eliyle cep telefonunu tutuyor .     ---> He/she  is holding his/her/your  mobile phone.

 

* to clarify the person, we can add "kendi" [his/her]   or " senin" [your] just before "telefonunu."

 

Sol eliyle kendi cep telefonunu tutuyor. --> He/she is holding his/her own mobile phone with his/her left hand.

 

Sol eliyle senin cep telefonunu tutuyor. ---> He/She is holding your mobile phone with her/his  left hand.

 

============================

Was that what you wanted to ask ? or did I get you wrong ?

 

 

 



Edited (3/19/2013) by tunci
Edited (3/19/2013) by tunci
Edited (3/19/2013) by tunci
Edited (3/19/2013) by tunci
Edited (3/20/2013) by tunci [changed "the" into "a" in second sentence , corrected by Abla ]

Moha-ios, Henry, gokuyum, elenagabriela and basima liked this message
3.       Abla
3648 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 12:32 am

I understand what you mean, HaNNo. You wonder why cep telefonu is not marked with accusative if in fact it is a definite object. And if it was not definite why there is no indefinite article.

 

It is an important question seldom discussed in Turkish language forums.

 

English uses indefinite article. So does Turkish. But they are only partly the same.

 

Four referential statuses can be identified in Turkish:

 

1. DEFINITE: Çocuklar arabayı yıkadılar. ‘The children washed the car.’

2. INDEFINITE: Bir odada birtakım kutular vardı. ‘There were some boxes in a room.’

3. CATEGORIAL: Sen daha çocuksun. ‘You are still a child.’ (The noun phrase indicates merely ‘the kind’ to which reference is made, the distinction between singular and plural is neutralized which shows in sentences like Kitap okuyor ´He is reading a book/books´.)

4. GENERIC: Eskiden çocuk, büyüklerine saygı gösterildi. ‘In the past, a child showed respect to his elders.’ (The noun phrase refers to any typical member of a class.)

 

English and Turkish differ in statuses 3 and 4 where English in general uses indefinite article but Turkish does not.

 

In your examples

 

Sağ eliyle sol kol|u|n|u tutuyor

Sol eliyle cep telefon|u tutuyor 

 

the objects are of the types 1 and 4. sol kolunu is definite, a certain person’s left arm. But I think cep telefonu in the second sentence has a generic reference. It is any phone, a typical member of its class  -  but certainly only one, so the categorial status is not possible.

 

If I am right  -  let’s see what natives say  -  I think the second sentence translates as ‘He is holding a mobile phone by his left hand.’

 

(Göksel  -  Kerslake: Turkish  -  a Comprehensive Grammar 2005)

 



Edited (3/20/2013) by Abla

suzanne2013 and tunci liked this message
4.       tunci
7149 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 12:46 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

Sağ eliyle sol kol|u|n|u tutuyor

Sol eliyle cep telefon|u tutuyor 

 

the objects are of the types 1 and 4. sol kolunu is definite, a certain person’s left arm. But I think cep telefonu in the second sentence has a generic reference. It is any phone, a typical member of its class  -  but certainly only one, so the categorial status is not possible.

 

If I am right  -  let’s see what natives say  -  I think the second sentence translates as ‘He is holding a mobile phone by his left hand.’

 

(Göksel  -  Kerslake: Turkish  -  a Comprehensive Grammar 2005)

 

 

Hoş geldin Abla.  

Yes, you are right. In second sentence, "mobile phone " is indefinite . So, it should be "a mobile phone". 

 

5.       Abla
3648 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 01:39 am

Hoş bulduk tunci.

6.       Abla
3648 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 09:16 am

Quote: tunci

"mobile phone " is indefinite

 

In the above classification not indefinite but generic. If it was indefinite there would be an indefinite article. I know it is a slight difference but meaningful for a learner who is making choices.

 

Actually your examples also confirm it: if we talk about ´his mobile phone´ the accusative marking of a definite object is inevidable  -  no generic interpretation any more.

 

                              Sol eliyle cep telefonunu tutuyor.

7.       HaNNo
74 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 09:45 am

 

Quoting Abla

I understand what you mean, HaNNo. You wonder why cep telefonu is not marked with accusative if in fact it is a definite object. And if it was not definite why there is no indefinite article.

 

It is an important question seldom discussed in Turkish language forums.

 

Really Abla it is - or was thanks to you & tunci - confusing specially in examples given on some other sites

And yes tunci you got me right.

 

çok teşekkür ederim arkadaşlar

8.       HaNNo
74 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 09:54 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

In the above classification not indefinite but generic. If it was indefinite there would be an indefinite article. I know it is a slight difference but meaningful for a learner who is making choices.

 

 

Yes Abla for me it is important what you discussed about the difference between indefinite & generic. That was exactly my question

 



Edited (3/20/2013) by HaNNo

9.       HaNNo
74 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 10:24 am

what about this example:

 

Kızın yiyecek hiçbir şeyi yok

 

Thanks again

10.       tunci
7149 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 01:46 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

In the above classification not indefinite but generic. If it was indefinite there would be an indefinite article. I know it is a slight difference but meaningful for a learner who is making choices.

 

Actually your examples also confirm it: if we talk about ´his mobile phone´ the accusative marking of a definite object is inevidable  -  no generic interpretation any more.

 

                              Sol eliyle cep telefonunu tutuyor.

 

Sometimes we don´t need to put an indefinite article "bir".  

 

Sol eliyle cep telefonu tutuyor. ---> Here, we can consider that there is  "bir" before "cep telefonu". In practice , we sometimes don´t put indefinite article when we refer an indefinite object. 

Bir cep telefonu almam lazım --> I need to buy a mobile phone.

Cep telefonu almam lazım --> I need to buy a mobile phone.

-----------------------------------------------------

Cep telefonunu sakla ---> Can mean;

Hide your mobile phone

Hide his/her mobile phone --->  [onun] cep telefonunu sakla

Hide the mobile phone

 

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11.       tunci
7149 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 02:55 pm

 

Quoting HaNNo

what about this example:

 

Kızın yiyecek hiçbir şeyi yok

 

Thanks again

 

 

Kızın yiyecek hiçbir şeyi yok -----> 

 

If we break it into  literal elements ;

 

Her anything = hiçbir şeyi 

Kızın  hiçbir şeyi ---> The girl´s anything  

Kızın yiyecek hiçbir şeyi   ---> The girl´s anything to eat

Kızın yiyecek hiçbir şeyi yok --> There is not anything of the girl to eat.

 

which means ;

 

The girl has nothing to eat. [ The girl has not got anything to eat]

 

 

hiçbir şeyi ---> His/her nothing ,  in our case, nothingness is possessed by  the girl.

 

the girl´s nothing  [ the girl has nothing]

 

 

complicated ?   

 



Edited (3/20/2013) by tunci
Edited (3/20/2013) by tunci

elenagabriela liked this message
12.       HaNNo
74 posts
 20 Mar 2013 Wed 10:57 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

hiçbir şeyi ---> His/her nothing ,  in our case, nothingness is possessed by  the girl.

 

the girl´s nothing  [ the girl has nothing]

 

 

complicated ?   

 

 

To be honest it is complicated specially with a word like "nothing". I got it now but i hope i won´t forget it after awhile and come to ask you again

Sağol tunci {#emotions_dlg.flowers}

 

 

 

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