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-meksiniz
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10.       bod
5999 posts
 28 Jul 2006 Fri 11:47 am

Going back to the begining of the thread......
Erdinç said that "çalışmaksızın para kazanmak istiyorum" is OK but that "çalışmadan para kazanmak istiyorum" is better.

Why is the latter better?
What is the difference in meaning?
When is -meksizin used?

And while we are on the subject.....how is -mezden used?

11.       erdinc
2151 posts
 28 Jul 2006 Fri 03:03 pm

The -maksızın suffix is going to be dropped in the future. We are now in the middle of such a change. I think it will take 30 years untill that suffix is gone. Our language changes very fast. If you live within the language (we all live within the language but just don't realize it) and if you watch carefully you can see these changes. In Turkish these are amazing because many of them will fit in a person's lifetime while this will not happen in many other languages.

It would be very interesting to talk about the Turkish in 30 years. I can see it.

12.       bod
5999 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 01:19 am

So when and how is -mezden used?

13.       erdinc
2151 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 01:28 am

You don't use -mezden but you use -meden. Ignore -mezden. It is an uneducated person's speech.

Incorrect: Siz gelmezden önce.
Correct: Siz gelmeden önce.

14.       erdinc
2151 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 01:33 am

This will be corrected in the next update of winmekmak if I have time for it.

Last time I have corrected conjugation problems and now you see a warning that they are not recommended. I didn't have enough time to revise gerunds etc. It would have delayed the release too much.

15.       milva
57 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 03:07 am

I have a qouestion about this.Can you create this sentence from negative word:
çalışmak-to work çalışmamak-not to work
koşmak-to run koşmamak-not to run
Çalışmadan para kazanmak istiyorum.
O koşmadan gitti.

16.       erdinc
2151 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 03:29 am

Yes you can. It is not common because the "-meden" suffix already has a negative suffix -me and it will be negative + negative so it's not common but it is possible. Here is an example:

Dinlemeden konuşmamak gerekir.
Normal translation: One must not talk without listening.
Literal translation: It is necessary not to talk without listening.
gerekir: It is necessary
konuşmamak : not to talk
dinlemeden : without listening.

But instead the negative infinitive (konuşmamak) you could use the negative imperative (konuşma) and for sure this is more common. This is the main structure to use when you want to say "Don't do this without doing that."

Dinlemeden konuşma.
Don't talk without listening.

Bilmeden konuşma.
Don't talk without knowing.

Sütünü içmeden yatma.
Don't go to bed without drinking your milk.

Duş almadan havuza girmeyiniz.
Don't use the pool without taking a shower.

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17.       bod
5999 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 03:04 pm

Quoting erdinc:

Correct: Siz gelmeden önce.



Is this a use of "önce gelmek"?
Without you preceding???

18.       erdinc
2151 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 03:28 pm

Quoting bod:

Quoting erdinc:

Correct: Siz gelmeden önce.



Is this a use of "önce gelmek"?
Without you preceding???



No, it isn't. "N-den önce" or "N-den sonra" means "before N" or "after N". N can be a verbal noun or noun.


19.       bod
5999 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 03:35 pm

So simply "before you come"?

20.       erdinc
2151 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 03:51 pm

Sorry, I mixed two different things. It is not the same with verbal nouns and normal nouns.

Normal nouns:
N-den sonra > before N
N-den önce > after N

okuldan sonra : after school
tatilden önce : before holiday

Verbal nouns:
V-meden önce : before V-ing
V-dikten sonra : after V-ing

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