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Floss'dan koşma hoşlanıyor
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1.       bod
5999 posts
 11 Aug 2006 Fri 02:00 am

Floss'dan koşma hoşlanıyor
Floss likes to run

Bu akşam annemki bahçede köpek Floss koşıyordu ve oynıyordu. Köpek Floss kız çok iyi. Floss'yı ve başka iki köpeğimi çok seviyorum.
This evening Floss dog has been running and playing in my mother's garden. Floss dog is a very good girl. I love Floss and and my other two dogs very much.

Corrections please
(with explanations if possible)

2.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 11 Aug 2006 Fri 11:18 am

Quoting bod:

Floss'dan koşma hoşlanıyor
Floss likes to run

Bu akşam annemki bahçede köpek Floss koşıyordu ve oynıyordu. Köpek Floss kız çok iyi. Floss'yı ve başka iki köpeğimi çok seviyorum.
This evening Floss dog has been running and playing in my mother's garden. Floss dog is a very good girl. I love Floss and and my other two dogs very much.

Corrections please
(with explanations if possible)



Floss koşaktan hoşlanıyor

Bu akşam annemin bahçesinde köpek Floss koşuyordu ve oynuyordu. Köpek Floss çok iyi bir kız. Floss'u
(if you pronounce it "flos" with "o", we should add "-u", if "flas" we should add "-ı") ve diğer iki köpeğimi çok seviyorum.

3.       bod
5999 posts
 11 Aug 2006 Fri 12:19 pm

Quoting caliptrix:

Floss koşaktan hoşlanıyor



Teşekkür ederim.

Where does the -ak suffix come from in "koş-ak-tan"

4.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 11 Aug 2006 Fri 12:32 pm

there is a misstype bod

its "-mak"

koş-mak-tan

5.       bod
5999 posts
 11 Aug 2006 Fri 12:55 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

there is a misstype bod

its "-mak"

koş-mak-tan



Ah! Thanks - that makes lots more sense.

However, I thought it was only "istemek" that could take the full infinitive -mak / -mek. I thought all other verbs (including "hoşlanmak") took the short infinitive -ma / -me

çalışmak istiyorum - I want to work
para kazanma çalışıyorum - I work to survive

6.       scalpel
1472 posts
 11 Aug 2006 Fri 04:02 pm

7.       bod
5999 posts
 12 Aug 2006 Sat 02:06 am

Quoting scalpel:

Quoting bod:

However, I thought it was only "istemek" that could take the full infinitive -mak / -mek. I thought all other verbs (including "hoşlanmak") took the short infinitive -ma / -me

çalışmak istiyorum - I want to work
para kazanma çalışıyorum - I work to survive



I told you once that -mek/-mak and -me/-ma are used to form a noun from a verb.Perhaps because no native speaker support me here in the site or because of what you've already learned are completely different from what I tell you now,you just keep not trusting me.I will tell it to you once more again.



I do trust you......

And you might notice that I was careful not to call -mak and -ma forms a "verb". But I did use the terms "full infinitive" and "short infinitive"......terms I learned from Erdinç who I understand can be trusted about issues regarding Turkish language.

But your explanation only tells me why -ma / -mak word forms are nouns. Please explain why it is:
Floss koşmaktan hoşlanıyor and not Floss koşmatan hoşlanıyor.

8.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 12 Aug 2006 Sat 06:35 am

...koşmadan hoşlanıyor...
seems ok but it may mean also: "he likes without running"
(due to your expression on practical usage)

9.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 12 Aug 2006 Sat 06:37 am

Quoting bod:

Quoting caliptrix:

Floss koşaktan hoşlanıyor



Teşekkür ederim.

Where does the -ak suffix come from in "koş-ak-tan"



Sorry, it was my mistake.
koşmaktan

10.       erdinc
2151 posts
 22 Aug 2006 Tue 03:19 am

Scalpel is correct on saying that both the full and short infinitives are nouns. Yes and infinitive is the noun form of a verb. Like all nouns they take case suffixes.

An infinitive in nominative case is always the full infinitive.
An infinitive in dative case is always the short infinitive.
An infinitive in accusative case is always the short infinitive.
An infinitive in nominative case is 'always' the short infinitive.
An infinitive in locative case is always the full infinitive. *
An infinitive in ablative case is 'always' the full infinitive. **

* The short infinitive is sometimes used here but I don't suggest this.
** In some historical phrases which are very limited in number, the short infinitive still exist with the ablative: "yemeden içmeden kesildi".


Summary:
(no suffix) nominative : -mek > gitmek
(-e,-a case) dative : -me > gitmeye
(-ı,-i,-u,-ü case) accusative : -me > gitmeyi
(-ın,-in,-un,-ün) genitive : -me > gitmenin
(-de,-da case) locative : -mek > gitmekte
(-den,-dan case) ablative case : -mek > gitmekten

Pick any transitive verb and add an infinitive as object.
Example:

sevmek is a transitive verb. It takes -i case. So we say "öğrenmeyi seviyorum", "okumayı seviyorum".

Hoşlanmak is a transitive verb. It takes -den case. So we say "öğrenmekten hoşlanıyorum", "okumaktan hoşlanıyorum".

istemek is a transitive verb. It takes both the accusative case or nominative case. So we say "öğrenmek istiyorum", "okumak istiyorum".

"An infinitive in nominative case is always the full infinitive."
This is correct in any case including noun sentences.

"Türkçe öğrenmek çok kolay."
"Yüzmek çok güzel."

The short infinitive doesn't exist in nominative case except,
1. building permanent nouns: düşÃ¼nme, yüzme, okuma
2. creating noun modifications: yürüme hızı, dönme süresi, gitme zamanı.

Bod,
It is not only istemek but there are other verbs that take an infinitive as an object in nominative case.

Gerekmek is a second one:
"Çok konuşmak gerekmez."
"Çok su içmek gerekiyor."
Olmak is a third one:
"Gitmek olmaz."
"İlk yapacağım şey uyumak olacak."

So I found three verbs (istemek, gerekmek, olmak) so far in this category. Sorry, I don't know any source that includes this kind information. Some information I give in forums I derive on my own.

Scalpel,
I too wrote many times that infinitives are nouns.

Quoting erdinc:

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_27_5159
I have decided to use the term "short infinitive" instead "verbal noun suffix". After all the infinitive is the noun form of a verb.


Quoting erdinc:

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_5224
The infinitive is by definition the noun form of a verb and doesn't need any other suffix. While -mek is the full infinitive we have also the short infinitive -me. Both are nouns. For instance in the above sentence okuma is the short infinitive.


Quoting erdinc:


http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_27_5291_2
All infinitives are verbal nouns as well. For instance "yüzmek" is also a verbal noun. An infinitive is a verb's noun form. "yüzme" is the short infinitive.

11.       erdinc
2151 posts
 22 Aug 2006 Tue 03:57 am

Quoting bod:

I thought it was only "istemek" that could take the full infinitive -mak / -mek. I thought all other verbs (including "hoşlanmak") took the short infinitive -ma / -me



Hi Bod,
This is not what I wanted to tell but if you understood it that way then it is because I was misleading you.

Once I wrote, "Except 'istemek', which is an auxiliary verb, I can't think of any other verb that would be used with mastar hali.".

By "mastar hali" I was considering the full infinitive without any suffix. In fact for verb sentences there aren't any other verbs except istemek (and gerekmek and olmak it turns out) that take an infinitive in nominative case.

This is correct:
"Only istemek, gerekmek, olmak" can take an infinitive without any suffix (in nominative case)."

This is incorrect:
"Only istemek, gerekmek, olmak" can take an infinitive in -mek version."

This second sentence will be incorrect because the infinitive can be in -mek version in locative and ablative cases as well. I hope I didn't suggest the second one in one of my previous messages.

I wanted to say that all other transitive verbs except istemek (and gerekmek and olmak) should take infinitives with case suffixes.

Most transitive verbs take the accusative case and the accusative case of infinitives is always with the short infinitive. Therefore we say always gitmeyi, yürümeyi, bakmayı, okumayı etc with the short infinitive -ma,-me.

Hoşlanmak takes the ablative case -den,-den and the ablative case should take only the full version as in, "gitmekten, yürümekten, bakmaktan, okumaktan".

For the locative and ablative cases there is a common mistake among natives to use them with the short infinitive. I don't suggest using this.

12.       bod
5999 posts
 30 Aug 2006 Wed 01:16 am

Quoting erdinc:

Scalpel is correct on saying that both the full and short infinitives are nouns.

BIG SNIP

So I found three verbs (istemek, gerekmek, olmak) so far in this category.



Sorry - I am getting confused here
Firstly you say that full infinitives are nouns - then you quote three full infinitives as being verbs.......

Can be they be both at different times???

13.       erdinc
2151 posts
 30 Aug 2006 Wed 02:37 am

Greetings bod,

It is very easy actually. Everything has a name. For instance you have a name, I have a name or that table has a name. All names by definiton are nouns.

For instance when I say "Bod", is Bod a person or a name? It is both isn't it? Smillarly when I say "table", is table an object with four legs or is it the name of an object?

While these words are names (and therefore nouns) they are also referring to objects, aren't they? When I say "Bod is very clever." I'm refering to you and not to the word "Bod".

We need names to talk about things. There are names for people, for objects, for actions, for anything that is imaginable.

When we talk about actions we also need the name of an action. Therefore there are names of actions.

"The name of an action is called an infinitive."

Because these are names of verbs (actions or occurings) they are at the same time nouns since all names are nouns.

When I say "koşmak" (to run) is this a noun or is this a verb? The answer is, "it is both". It is like asking "when I say Erdinç, is this a person or a name?" It is the name of a person (me, in this case).

Smillarly, koşmak is the name of the verb koşmak."An infinitive is the noun version of a verb."

When you talk about a verb you use the infinitive. You make the infinitive the object of the sentence, or in noun sentence it can be the subject of the sentence.

For instance "(Ben) koşmak istiyorum" has the infinitive koşmak as an object.
"Koşmak çok güzel." has the infinitive koşmak as subject. (There is no object in noun sentences.)

Instead talking about verbs when you conjugate them they are no more nouns. For instance if you conjugate the infinitive koşmak it is no more a noun.

"Ben koşuyorum."
"Koşuyorum" is a conjugation of the infinitive "koşmak" and koşuyorum is a verb. "Koşuyorum" can not be a noun since it doesn't name anything.

In short saying that "koşmak is a verb" or "koşmak is a noun" or "koşmak is both an noun and a verb" or "koşmak is an infinitive" are all correct.

Here is a short further reading:
http://www.answers.com/infinitive

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