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pronouns part 2
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1.       Kehribar
1580 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 05:44 pm

It says that: If the meaning of a pronoun is negative, it must always be used in a negative sentence. Similarly, pronouns with positive meanings must always be used in positive sentences.

Oke, I understand that part. But when I read the examples than i get confused.

I saw nothing. --> Hiçbir şey görmedim

When I translate this myself, I thought it said: I didn't see nothing. So you use two times not. So than you saÿ: I see anyhting. Right? So no I am confused how to use this.

2.       erdinc
2151 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 08:11 pm

Yes, it is two times negative. There is nothing wrong with this. Your translation is also very good.

Hiçbir şey görmedim : I didn't see nothing.

This is a literal translation. This is the way we speak. There are always differences between languages. You just need to accept them and move on. If you fight with the language you just lose time.

By the way I have heard people saying "Don't shoot nobody" (Eddie Murphy said this in a movie) or "Don't say nothing" so it might be more reasonable than it looks at first glance.

3.       Chantal
587 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 08:20 pm

The 2x no in a sentence, like the examples you gave erdinc, is because languages are always changing. If I'm right these 'I didn't do nothin' 'sentences are originated in the outskirts of the USA, but are finding its way into the language nowadays. It's not officially correct, but in especially in speaking its used more and more..

4.       Kehribar
1580 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 10:06 pm

Quoting erdinc:


This is a literal translation. This is the way we speak. There are always differences between languages. You just need to accept them and move on. If you fight with the language you just lose time.



Thank you. I just wanted to know, if I understood it right. Because in my own language you cant use 2 times negative but so I see in Turkish you can.

5.       aslan2
507 posts
 24 Aug 2006 Thu 11:37 am

Quoting ambertje:

Quoting erdinc:


This is a literal translation. This is the way we speak. There are always differences between languages. You just need to accept them and move on. If you fight with the language you just lose time.



Thank you. I just wanted to know, if I understood it right. Because in my own language you cant use 2 times negative but so I see in Turkish you can.



Sometimes triple negative is possible.

Ex:
(0x) Gittiğim oluyor -- In some occasions I go there.
(1x) Gittiğim olmuyor -- There is no occasion that I go there.
(2x) Gitmediğim olmuyor -- There is no occasion that I don't go there. (I always go there.)
(3x) Gitmediğim olmuyor değil -- NOT of (2x). (Sometimes I go there, sometimes I don't.)

6.       CANLI
5084 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 10:06 am

Then this rule not working at all Türkçede ,right ?

negative of the nagative İS affirmative

Like to say,

İ did NOT, see NOTHİNG

Means,i saw something

Then this rule is not exist in any case in Türkçe,right ?

7.       aslan2
507 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 10:19 am

Quoting CANLI:

Then this rule not working at all Türkçede ,right ?

negative of the nagative İS affirmative

Like to say,

İ did NOT, see NOTHİNG

Means,i saw something

Then this rule is not exist in any case in Türkçe,right ?


No It works. My point is even triple negative is possible in Turkish.

This one works
Bilmiyorum -- I don't know
Bilmiyorum değil -- Not that I don't know (I know)

8.       CANLI
5084 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 10:35 am

ok,now i'm confused

When does this rule work,and when it doesn't ?

A rule,is a rule,mostly it works in any cases,
Specially rule like this

İ know there would be exceptions,but,maybe with suffix or something like that

But to differentiate between nagative and affirmative ?

Sometimes double nagative means STİLL negative,and other times
Double nagative means affirmative ???

That is very confusing ...

What is the rule then ?
When is which?

9.       aslan2
507 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 10:49 am

Quoting CANLI:

ok,now i'm confused

When does this rule work,and when it doesn't ?

Sometimes double nagative means STİLL negative,and other times
Double nagative means affirmative ???

That is very confusing ...

What is the rule then ?
When is which?



Ok. Sorry to make you confused. Forget my triple negative example.

Other than that double negative should mean affirmative always.

(1x) Gidemem -- I can't go there
(2x) Gidemem değil -- (I can go there)

(1x) Gitmedim -- I didn't go there
(2x) Gitmedim değil -- I did go there (indeed)

etc.

10.       CANLI
5084 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 11:05 am

No,its ok,i understand what you said,and i understand that triple negative thing too
thx,

but here

Hiçbir şey görmedim : I didn't see nothing

Hiç means Never, so in English we consider it double nagative

But i may understand,so correct me if i am wrong pls,

Here in this sentence,from Türkçe point of view,it is only 1 negative,because hiç doesn't considered a negative sentense ,it is only supportive with the negative sentence,or with a question

But in Türkçe point of view,
Double negative is when we use 2 negative suffix together,like (ma) negative suffix with (değil)
Or double (ma) negative suffix together

İn this case,the double negative mean affirmative

Doğru mu ?

11.       aslan2
507 posts
 27 Aug 2006 Sun 07:37 am

Quoting CANLI:

No,its ok,i understand what you said,and i understand that triple negative thing too
thx,

but here

Hiçbir şey görmedim : I didn't see nothing

Hiç means Never, so in English we consider it double nagative

But i may understand,so correct me if i am wrong pls,

Here in this sentence,from Türkçe point of view,it is only 1 negative,because hiç doesn't considered a negative sentense ,it is only supportive with the negative sentence,or with a question

But in Türkçe point of view,
Double negative is when we use 2 negative suffix together,like (ma) negative suffix with (değil)
Or double (ma) negative suffix together

İn this case,the double negative mean affirmative

Doğru mu ?


Doğru.

As for never vs hiç, yes it is only supportive as you said.
When there is "hiç", there should also be some sort of negativity.

In Turkish, we have yok, -me-/-ma- and değil to make negative sentences:

Ex:
Hiç yok -- there is none (of it)
Hiç para yok -- there isn't any money

Bilmiyorum -- I don't know
Hiç Bilmiyorum -- I don't know at all

İyi değilim -- I'm not fine
Hiç iyi değilim -- I'm not fine at all

Hiç görüyor musun? -- Do you ever see him?
Hayır, hiç görmüyorum -- No, I never do

Hiç paran var mı? -- Do you have any money?
Hiç yok -- No, I don't (have any)

As you can see from the examples, It may mean never, any, not at all in various cases.

It is not used in positive sentences. And it is supportive in negative sentences.

As for your double negative example.
I didn't see nothing.
We still have negative meaning here. I would expect affirmative meaning when there is double negative.

not (not x) = x

Like the following:
I am unable to see it -- I cannot see it
I am not unable to see it -- I can see it

12.       CANLI
5084 posts
 27 Aug 2006 Sun 08:05 am

Çok TŞK

Anladım

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