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A question about the word "gitmeye"
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| 10. |
23 Aug 2006 Wed 11:19 am |
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Quoting erdinc:
Dative and accusative cases use always the short infinitive. |
Erdiç,
İ thought the short infinitive takes only iyelik ekleri ,and nothing else
My understanding it is not a verb now,so we don't treat it as a verb,
But we treat it as a noun ? full noun ?
İ mean we can say
Okula, okulda,okuldan ,and so on,
So we can use the short infinitive same way ?
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| 11. |
23 Aug 2006 Wed 03:06 pm |
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Quoting aslan2: Short infinitive? What is it? Never heard of. Is it a term you call -me/-ma suffix? So far I never come across such a term in a grammar book? Where did you see it? |
I haven't seen it anywhere. It is called "ma infinitive" in Turkish. In Turkish we just say "mak infinitive" or "ma infinitive". Therefore I call them long or short infinitives.
TDK is our official language institution. Here is a definition from their dictionary:
Quoting TDK: http://www.tdk.gov.tr/TDKSOZLUK/SOZBUL.ASP?kelime=mastar
"Fiilin -mak / -mek veya -ma / -me ekleri alan ve isim gibi kullanılan biçimi, eylemlik: al-mak, üşÃ¼-mek, gör-me, bul-ma vb."
"Infinitive: A verb's noun form that takes the -mak / -mek or -ma / -me suffixes, infinitive: al-mak, üşÃ¼-mek, gör-me, bul-ma etc." |
Quoting CANLI: Quoting erdinc:
Dative and accusative cases use always the short infinitive. |
Erdiç,
İ thought the short infinitive takes only iyelik ekleri ,and nothing else
My understanding it is not a verb now,so we don't treat it as a verb, But we treat it as a noun ? full noun ? |
Greetings,
This link I mentioned in my above post as well.
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_27_6871
If you check it you will see that I and others did say many times that and infinitive is the noun versioh of a verb. Like all nouns infinitives takes case suffixes.
Check message number #10. Accusative, dative and genitive is in "ma infinitive" and ablative , locative and nominative is in "mak infinitive" form.
Quote: İ mean we can say
Okula, okulda,okuldan ,and so on,
So we can use the short infinitive same way ?
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Yes. This is exactly true.
Examples:
1. gitmek
nominative: gitmek
dative: gitmeye
accusative: gitmeyi
locative: gitmekte
ablative: gitmekten
genitive: gitmenin
2. sevmek
nominative: sevmek
dative: sevmeye
accusative: sevmeyi
locative: sevmekte
ablative: sevmekten
genitive: sevmenin
On message #10 you will find full suffixes of cases.
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_27_6871
What do you do by adding cases sıffixes to an infinitive?
Simple. You use them with transitive verbs. Most vrebs in Turkish are transitive (they take an object).
Example:
uyumak (to sleep) is intransitive since you can not sleep something.
sevmek (to love) is transitive since you can love something.
A transitive verb takes the object in a predefined noun state (accusative, nominative, dative etc)
For instance it is "-i sevmek", "-den hoşlanmak", "-e başlamak", "-i bilmek".
-i sevmek : yüzmeyi seviyorum (yüzmek> yüzmeyi)
-den hoşlanmak > Kitap okumaktan çok hoşlanırım (okumak > okumaktan)
-e başlamak > Yalan söylemeye başladı. (söylemek > söylemeye)
-i bilmek > Yüzmeyi biliyor musun? (yüzmek > yüzmeyi)
By "-i sevmek" I mean that sevmek always takes the -i case and this is predefined and this will never change. On the other hand hoşlanmak always takes the -den case. You just learn what verb takes what case and then you apply this case to the object whetherthe object might be a noun or infinitive.
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| 12. |
23 Aug 2006 Wed 03:18 pm |
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Ohh,Tşk ederim Erdiç,
İ never knew or thought that the long infinitive can take cases too like you have mentioned !
İ guess i need to arrange my information,cause i am about to get confused between verbs,and nouns and adjectives and all, and which take which cases :-S
Yine,Çok Tşk
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| 13. |
23 Aug 2006 Wed 04:07 pm |
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| 14. |
23 Aug 2006 Wed 04:34 pm |
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Quoting scalpel:
We stopped to rest (to-infinitive) |
Greetings scalpel,
The "to rest" in that sentence is not the infinitive "to rest". There are different to's in English. This one is just a preposition.
Smillarly the "to see" in the sentence "I need to see you" is not the infinitive "to see".
The Turkish infinitive is exactly the same the as the English infinitive. Infinitives are verb names.
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| 15. |
24 Aug 2006 Thu 09:10 am |
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Quoting erdinc:
The "to rest" in that sentence is not the infinitive "to rest". There are different to's in English. This one is just a preposition.
Smillarly the "to see" in the sentence "I need to see you" is not the infinitive "to see".
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No. I think it is a "to-infinitive". You can do a simple test for it. If it is an infinitive you can drop the verb when the verb is implied.
I need to see you, yes I really need *to*.
The last *to* implies "to see you".
Quoting erdinc: The Turkish infinitive is exactly the same the as the English infinitive. Infinitives are verb names. |
Actually no.
In the recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (CGEL) the traditional notion of the infinitive is not used, since it does not actually correspond to the linguistic facts of English. A single form, the 'plain form', is used for the infinitive function, for the present subjunctive function, and for the imperative function. Many other European languages have distinct forms for these three, but English has only one covering all of them. The CGEL instead speaks of infinitival clauses, where the structure and function of the clause differentiate it from subjunctive or imperative clauses, though the verb is the same.
1- Infinitive
I want you to come -- Gelmeni istiyorum.
here "gelmeni" is equal to "you to come" but the Turkish sentence means literally
I want your coming
2- Imperative
* He come here right away -- hemen buraya gelsin
* Come here right away -- hemen buraya gel
Here we have bare infinitive forms but they are used for imperative function.
3- Present Subjunctive
* I ask(ed) that he be shown mercy.
* It is (or was) necessary that we not forget our instructions.
* Her insistence that he leave seems (or seemed) rude.
Here we have bare infinitive forms but they are used for subjunctive function.
For those who may be interested
Bare infinitive = Verb without "to" -- go, see, do
To-infinitive = to + bare infinitive -- to go, to see, to do
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| 16. |
24 Aug 2006 Thu 01:36 pm |
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Hi
This is Joanne who thought she understood about cases but now after the Gitmek discussion realises she knows nothing. There is nothing in my book about short and long infinitives. H E L P!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought that cases were added to noun s and tenses to verbs also personal pronouns. Can some one more up to speed than me explain this. Sorry to be a pain. I will go back to the lesson on infinitives and see if I have missed anything.
This get s more confusing
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| 17. |
24 Aug 2006 Thu 02:27 pm |
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Hello,Joanne,
Only this is a little bit advanced for use,they are just having different opinion about the name of the infinitive
İ guess what we lerners care more about,is its function not its name,so it is just a bit advanced for us
As for the infinitive,it is the name of the verb
As in English we for example have the verb come
But Coming,is the process of the verb itself
İt is exactly like this
But in Türkçe,it takes more than one shap,we talk here about 2 of them,and i believe it takes more than 2 shaps too
We talk about long infinitive and short infinitive,we call them this way to differentiate between them
İt takes those suffix 'mek' 'mak' and 'me' 'ma' accourding to the vowel harmony
Both have the same meaning,but different in their usadge
'mek' 'mak' is common and you cann't personalize it
mean while 'me' 'ma' you can personalize it
Let's take a look here
Trafik kurallarına uyMAK gerek......common
Meaning,Following trafic rules,must
Trafik kurallarına uyMAmız gerek....personalized
OUR following trafic rules,must
See here,it is not common adrressing to everyone,it is strictly adrressed to us
Sorry,the translation not perfect,but i wanted to show you the difference word by word
Again,it is same here
Yalan söyleMEK yanlış bir davranıştır.....common
Saying lie,wrong behavior
İt is common saying for everyone
But here
(Senin) Yalan söyleMEn hiç hoş değil.....personalized
Your saying lie,not nice
here it is addrressed for a specific person,which i am talking to
But notice something here, we add the possessive pronouns to 'ma' 'me' which we call it the short infinitive, we don't add the personal pronouns
İ hope i could explained what you were asking,pls feel free to ask what ever you want,and you will get the answer you are seeking inşallah from the wonderful friends overe here
Read all the posts above too,and you will get it inşallah
And correction is welcome for any info i've said
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| 18. |
24 Aug 2006 Thu 02:37 pm |
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Erdinç,
Can we call eylem + (y) Iş infinitive too ?
like
Anlamak.....anlayış
Gülmek.....Gülüş
İ know,it is about the way the verb is done
Means ...anlayışım is the way i understand
Gülüşi....the way he laughs
But we made it from a verb,it is a noun,so it considered infinitive too ?
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| 19. |
24 Aug 2006 Thu 04:35 pm |
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| 20. |
24 Aug 2006 Thu 09:24 pm |
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Quoting CANLI: Erdinç,
Can we call eylem + (y) Iş infinitive too ?
like
Anlamak.....anlayış
Gülmek.....Gülüş |
No. These are permanent nouns. The -ış,iş,uş,üş suffix is a verbal noun suffix.
In Turkish the -ma, -me suffix in gitmeye, okumaya, yürümeyi, bakmaya is the short infinitive. You can call it a verbal noun suffix if it makes you happy. I used to call it verbal noun suffix.
The truth is that the -ma, -me suffix has two independent functions. Except the negative suffix -me, ma which we don't need to mebtion here, we have a verbal noun suffix -me, -ma and a shorth initive suffix -me, -ma.
1. to be a short infinitive as in gitmeye, koşmaya, yürümeye , bakmaya. This first usage is not limited. It can apply to any verb. Notive that ıt has no nominative version because nominative takes full infinitive. The short infinitive exists only in dative, accusative, genitive cases for all verbs.
2. to be a verbal noun suffix and to build permanent nouns such as yüzme (swimming) , okuma (reading) , yazma (writing). This second usage is called gerund in English. It is limited to very few verbs. There are few verbs that can have the gerund version in Turkish.
Most sources just call it verbal noun suffix and leave it that way. I would prefer using to different names for them. We have already one -me -ma suffix which is the negative suffix. Instead two -me, -ma's we would have three if we call one verbal noun and the other short infinitive.
Anyway, the naming is not the most important thing as long as you can use it. The "-ış,iş,uş,üş" works exactly the same way as the second usage (marked as number 2 above) of -me, -ma (not the first usage).
These are permanent names derived from verbs: gidiş (departure) , bakış (glance) , geliş (arrival).
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