Religion and Rationality


The difference between the social, cultural and intellectual heritage of the European continent and that of America has gained a special significance in today’s world.


However common their slogans are, there are those discreetly advocating the thesis that there is or will be a Clash of Civilizations between the East and West, or between Western democracy and Islam. Even though they prefer to use the generalization “Western world,” actually the “East” can not be mentioned as a single entity. Many things are lost on Turkish intellectuals and readers when they fail to distinguish that Western society is a constantly boiling heterogeneity made up of dozens of different colors and factors that while conflicting, are yet harmonious and mixed.



One of the basic differences between Europe and America lies around the topics of “religion” and “religiosity.” For many Europeans, especially the European intelligentsia, religion and religiosity are individual choices. In this case, they are assumed not to make an imprint on public spaces or seep into the state structure or ideology. Expressing it another way, religion is a personal preference completely outside the public realm. Especially when we look at Northern European writers and intellectuals, we see they have taken this assertion a few steps further: Religiosity is a modern trait. That is, it points to a body of meanings and rules that has no place in the post-modern world. Even if they don’t say this openly, many European intellectuals think that religiosity was spread in a time of modernity, but that it has seen better days to a large extent. There are two important results emerging from this approach. First, European intellectuals have a difficult time understanding immigrant groups who live in Europe, some of whom can be very religious. Just as some of these groups may belong to Muslim immigrants, the devout Catholic Polish immigrants need to be included as well. Secondly, the same European intellectuals have not only difficulty understanding the growing religiosity in their own societies, but they find it very hard to understand America as well. In comparison to Europe, America possesses a much more religious social fabric, and, most importantly, their religion is continually visible in the public sphere.


Consequently, there are two separate cultural streams flowing parallel in the Western world; occasionally in conflict and sometimes distant. On the one hand, there is Europe with its settled secular culture and state structure. While on the other, there is America with its increasingly robust Christian fundamentalist religious dialectic.


This week a “religiosity and superstitions” research report published in the British press received strong reaction. This university research, which examined why and how people gave importance to superstitions for centuries, was actually, in one sense, “an effort to rationalize the irrational.” Among the findings, functions were listed like, “born from the need to give order to chaos, lightens the individual’s feeling of loneliness, and provides easy formulas to man in difficult times.” I’m not going to debate the research findings. hat interests me is how much the research was affected by the pragmatic, positivist British tradition and how great a difference there is between this method and the method in America.


America and Europe hold two completely different approaches to the subjects of religion and religiosity, this contradiction will become even more obvious in the near future.


September 12, 2006

Yea Let me explain.. uSa and europa said we want to brin democracy to middle east.. but they only brng trouble.. kiLL so many innocent.. Europea talkng about turkey if you wanna join us you have to follow the ruLes.. can you say to me.. in europea pple can make fun with the religion.. even pple can say fuck the religion everytng they want... but in here no 1 can dare to do it...bcz they know wht the hell ll happn ...ELIF SAFAK is a turkish...but she not said all herslf... some 1 force her to say... If america and europea go with this brain ...they ll lost a lot thngs.. but iSLam countries ll be great in future even now they are in war..We have soul...not only talkng like them...I HATE USA AND EUROPEAN Govermnt.. around the world alrdy pple dont like europea and usa.. bcoze they like to kill... nthng else..

Well, I think we are well aware of your hatred towards us, thank you Rain. You are generalising about everything. There are many devoutly religious people in Europe and USA. Also, while I am the FIRST to condemn the actions of our Governments over Iraq and Afghanistan, I do not accept that WE are the only countries to cause war, and kill.

If your attitude is common, then God help us all. People are people Rain, we are all just people and we are all different. Dont judge countries as a whole.

No i stil saying all europea and usa... whn the time israil start to war with lebonon so 2.000 innocent die where is europea? coz Usa shut their mouth thts why they cnt talk anytng..europea jst dog fo usa...expclly ENGLAND( like Blair) people dunno anytng about muslim countries but they like to talk full of shit why? muslim women like to cover head...but fo europea fo usa they are terorist ..oh come on all is bullshit...Denmark they make fun with our prophet.. and later they said why muslim are getting crzy we also make fun with ourreligion is easy... Look people brain..

But its ok for Muslims to burn an effigy of the Pope eh?
No, I will not enter into this discussion. I think Islam is a beautiful religion and I respect all religions and people, and judge them individually. I wont be drawn to argue with you anymore.

Do you not realise we have a LARGE population of Muslims in the UK. They are also represented by Tony Blair. That is democracy, for better of worse. You judge us ALL?

why u getting crzy whn u hear the real thng? yes isLam is the most good religion in the world.. i nt saying bad about other religion coz we are nt the pple like yourcountry pple.. we know how to respct we know how to behave... you only talkng but cant show me anytng.. i saying myopinion ...u saying uropinion... no 1 fightng.. but u runng why u know coz u only see from tv chnell u never see pple die infornt of you... you only know how to sleep how to eat how to enjoy.. this is yourlife.. go iraq see pple cnt find water to drink but u so good can sleep well.. thts why i m saying you talkng bullshit.. jst learn smtng bfre talk...

How dare you judge me? I have already told you I do not agree with what is happening in Iraq. I also was shocked yesterday when many innocent women were killed by THEIR OWN PEOPLE while queuing for oil for Ramadan, just as I am shocked by all the killing there. I do not agree with USA and UK either. I respect ALL religion and I respect all people and judge them only on their OWN actions. I will not discuss this further with such a narrow minded person, and also am fully aware that this discussion is against the rules of Turkish Class.

ta ta lady... I wish u and like yours... ll learn smtng real fo life.. nt tht sht.. if you wanna say idiot fo me nevermnd,.. you guys only know how to talk...

If being religious means spitting with hatred on other people then THANK YOU - no rituals in the name of Yahve or Allah for me!!!! I wonder what the One and Only Almighty and Forgiving would say about all that if she/he/it could speak. Read some Rumi or any other mistics - bring some love into your life RAIN! And if you believe in your God - trust your God - with your or without your help his/her/its plans will be caried on And you should trust that America, Europe, Israel, Turkey - all are in this plan. Unless,... there's no plan and no god needs no one to carry it on - then we are left as we are - some of us full of hatred others trying to share LOVE!!!

i Got you man.. i nt say more diffrnt thn you..we respct all religion coz bfre all religion teach isLam but people chnge fo theirslf..only qoran(muslim book) never chnged..till now muslim never got war...only western countries war..like usa sent bomb to hirosima..i also got a lot jewis cristian budist friend..they are so nice and i recpect their religion no matter how.. hz isa hz musa.. all is god sent the to the world to teach god rules... bfre first human come to the world...in front of paradice door..write our prophet name Muhammed..love is diffrnt...sometms pple have use their mind to learn smtng...who not learn anytng about religion or other they talkng nonstop...thts why i getting crzy in here all the time...learn but is not only in urcountry books.. read bad or good learn thn only try to share smtng after tht mybe i ll learn smtng from you too... dont say only love or piece... everybody say smetng but nthng chnge.. show smtng..

What do you mean - do something not just talk??? And Quaran is not the only Holy Scripture - when you say learn from others - OK I'm willing to learn from you - but are you willing to learn from me??? why do you think only the books you read are right??? Maybe there is something in mine too Do you see what I'm trying to say - don't expect to do things by others - start from yourself

i think all of u are right but i saw rain a little bit offensive.Rain be carefull against the ppl who argue with.u are one of the muslim and u represent ur religion (islam) what the islam says be broadminded. if u are offensive to other ppl, they will think that all the muslims are offensive.the media trys to show muslims killer, suicide bomber, terrorist.(like bush saying: islamo fascist) so be broadminded and show ur religion's tolerance to other ppl.everybody thinks that their religion is the best or correct.maybe the only religion.
stop to argue and make a harmony.lets find same things what our holly books say.

why are u so agressive Rain? there are really very liberal minded americans. i know many of them. they are better then angry turks because they can critisize themselves, their government. we love to criticize others usa or europe but when it comes to Turkey we kept silent. i think we Turks should learn how to debate and how to make self-criticism.

1) i can critisize R.Tayyip Erdoğan why he supports USA in ıraq and afganistan..
2)why the EU is so silent about the war between lebenon and israil even hizbullah won.....and this was was unfair.. 2000 ppl was death...even all of them was citizen.. not soldiers..
3)elif safak said her opinion.. and we have to respect her idea..
4) if anyone kill the innocent ppl he/she is a guilty.. in any religion killing innocent person is forbidden.. like in islam..if anyone is killed, the guilty is NOT A RELIGIONal person.. if unwised man can say amth about islam, i cant stand on it.. the islam refuses the fundemantalizm.. like usame bin laden or etc.. why? coz islam tolaret the innocents even they r ateists.. but now some ppl tell lies about islam and someone who has not got any ideas about islami they believe them easily..
5)in any muslim country even in iran is any christian person killed without a reason..? can someone show me any clue? i guess no.. teh different is here, islam respects the other believes.. but not like evangelist.. we dont attact any christian country like USA,England etc etc.. u have to accept, u need money if u want to maintain ur wealth.. that is why muslim country are attacked every year...

Our prophet SAV said 'Lakom dinakom ve li dini'

Means,'you have your own religion,and i have mine',no one forcing other to a religion

There is God, and everyone worship Him in his own way,we are not in a position to say who is right or who is wrong,its something for God only,and only in His hands

Yes Rain is offensive really,but in other hand no need to ask why,he just feels unfair !

İf you were a Muslim,you will feel how unfair you are treated,even like a country because you are a muslim country
And if you are muslim and live in a Western country,you will still feel how unfair you are treated for being a Muslim !

But again you are right,he shouldn't have generalized,and he should seperate between individuals and politics too.

And offensiveness,isn't the right way to talk about this,even our prophet SAV said 'Good word,is rewarded'

But,i just have a question here ,

Why always Muslims been attacked,judged,even our prophet too been insult,and at same time,we never attack,or insult any prophet ?
We don't even DARE to do it !

Open your eyes bfre talk bullshit... im nt agresive.. onLy i see that you guys only know how to say yourreligion yours myreligion mine.. but i said all religion is mymine coz they teach samethng ..but only you people chnge the book and wrote wrong thngs thts all...u cant stop wthout sex..you cant stop wthout alcohol or gamble.... thts why qoran is hard duty fo you... All the time.... europea and america got war... muslim world never start...

i am sorry but rain does not know his limits.

I was only reading and did not want to enter this debate. But, I can't remain silent. While I do not agree with Rain's choice of vocabulary, I do think he expresses a frustration that many individuals have around the world with the US's power and international influence. I am a voting, tax paying US citizen and I see many hipocracies in our government. We claim justice and liberty to all but hold people hostages in Cuba without proper access to judicial due process. While many see this as a Christian nation we must first understand that there is a separation of church and state here. Secondly, our government's actions and many policies do NOT hold true to 'Christian's' beliefs. I as a Christian woman wish that our government would spend more energy on ending world hunger, educating our children, and funding AIDs research. But unfornately we are a captalist society and these endeavors do not create 'profit'. I can only pray that one day we will see more altruist qualities and work as an individual to support organizations that try to assist people in need nationally and internationally.

heheh lady capoeria you are rght but usa only try gun to make people sit ...and dont forget usa economi depend middle east country... if arap people take back their money usa no economiusa strong bcze of PetroL.. yes i respct youropinion.. i wish everybody thnk same like you.. thn the world ll be in peace..but unless they still do like tht nothng ll chnge.. pple will die wll not find anytng to eat.. thnx of god mylife is excillent but whn i see the life in iraq i ask myslf they are nthng dffrnt thn you.. but urlife still good.. i feel shy from myslf..easy to talk in front of pc..whn you see everytng real thn only urbrain ll start to thnk somtng.. anywy.. lady capoeria i like to read your post.. so dont only watch smtms join.. pple have to talk to understnd...

hey you guys dont get me wrong pls.. im not talkng about usa people.. i m talkng about usa govermnt.. and teaschp..your country govermnt not help other country... they make the lebonon shit.. ofcoz now they have to build it again..if usa not give gun to israil how israel can dare to fight?usa give money to kurdish people in iraq so many pple die usa govermtng thnk tht we have money so if we give them they ll shut their mouth thts all..they send atom bom to hirosima thn they build japan again now japan economi most strong economi in the world.. china coming but usa scre 1.5 milyar people all around the world china product.. so wht they have to do.. bomb muslims country to take petrol thts all.. your country not bring democracy..Can you say to me...usa got oven people? i dont belive tht they alrdy dead long time bfre...this govermnt killed real usa people.. im not going to fight in here.. i stdied sosyology and nonstop learnng all about country searchng.. whtout nothng i wont talk anytng here...and pls...look usa history how they bcme usa... jst kill take other country pple money thts all.. thn they spend your money fo gun... yourtax fo gun yourtax fo find people to sent aircraft to your twin tower.. thts all.. i love all people..

Rain, I can always count on you for a good debate. That's probably why I like you, you just call it as you see it. However, I also have a background in history and foreign politics and maybe if you come to the US, we could compare notes.

now fly to usa so expensive ah and hard to take wisa coz im muslim and i like to debate too.. people have to learn but whtout fight.. im not fight mybe im a bit stubbrn..

bit ? lol

Don't get me wrong,i am with you,but

You should cool it down a little bit ,thats all,for them to understand your point.

Iam sorry but I dont see how anybody can have any respect for this person! Everyone is free to express their opinions, but theres no need to do it in such an offensive manner!

Rain - This is purely and observation, but if you are so against the west, then why do you express yourself constantly with Westernised colloquialisms? If I didnt already know you were Turkish, I would think you were from the ghetto by looking at your typing. Iam just curious, why do you shorten all your words? 'bcuz, smthn' etc?