Beyazlı oğlan topa vuruyor.

i have 2 questions concerning the above sentence:

1. is "lı" a suffix which means something like "with the color of sth."? i can't look it up in the suffix dictionary

2. why is the suffix "-a" added to the noun "top"? does it mean "kick to the ball" or sth? because i figure if it is "oğlan topu vuruyor" it makes perfect sense too, in fact i think it makes better sense, since the ball is the direct object of the verb "kick"...

can anyone answer my questions? thx a lot!!!!

thank you so much

'Beyazlı oğlan topa vuruyor'
Should be:
The boy in white (dresses) kicks the ball

' The boy kicks the white- colored ball"
This can be translated to Turkish as:
Oğlan beyaz renkli topa vuruyor.

Greetings,
That sentence must be build for educational pusposes as we would not hear this type of sentence very often.

Anyway here is the long answer to your second question:

Transitive Verbs:
These are the verbs that take an object. For instance "to sleep" is intransitive since it doesn't take an object. You can not sleep something. On the other hand "to cut" is transitive since it takes objects. You can cut something.

In Turkish, the object of a transitive verb will take a case suffix. In most cases this case suffix will be "accusative case" which is known as "-i case" (i hali).

Here is the full list for accusative case:
-ı, -i, -u, -ü

When you say "I love Turkia", 'to love' is transitive and takes the object 'Türkiye'. Therefore it will be "Türkiye'yi seviyorum". There is a buffer letter "y" in Türkiye'yi. Smillarly we say "Seni seviyorum" where sen takes the -i case.

Accusative is also called direct object case. It applies directly to the object. Accusative:
love the ... > -i sevmek
cut the ... > -i kesmek
want the ... > -i istemek

Some verbs take different cases. For instance "to look". You are not "looking THE" but you are "looking to". Therefore it takes the dative case. Dative case expresses the direction of the action.

The full list of dative case: -e, -a

look to > -e bakmak
go to > -e gitmek
take a shoot to > -e vurmak

Here is a full list:

1. name of case > 2. meaning > 3. full list according vowel harmony > 4. example noun > 5. example sentence

1. nominative case > 2. pure form > 3. no suffix > 4. İstanbul > 5. İstanbul çok güzel (Istanbul is very beautiful).

1. Dative > 2. direction: to > 3. -e, -a > 4. İstanbul'a > 5. İstanbul'a gidiyorum (I'm going to Istanbul).

1. Accusative > 2. applies to the object itself > 3. -ı, i ,u ,ü > 4. İstanbul'u > 5. İstanbul'u seviyorum (I love Istanbul).

1. Locative > 2. location: in, at, on > 3. -de, da, te, ta > 4. İstanbul'da > 5. İstanbul'da yaşıyorum (I'm living in Istanbul).

1. Ablative > 2. from > 3. -den, dan, ten, tan> 4. İstanbul'dan > 5. İstanbul'dan geliyorum (I'm coming from Istanbul).

The short answer is this:
vurmak takes -e case (to, towards). It is always "-e vurmak". Smillarly, it is always "-i sevmek". These are predefined things.

Yes, the genitive is considered to be a different category than five noun cases.

Noun cases exist because of verbs that are used in these cases. When you are going you are going 'to' a place and when you are coming you are coming 'from' a place and living 'in' a place and staying 'at' or 'on' a place. So there is a relation between the verb and the noun. In English this relation is created with the prepositions "in, at, on, from, to". So we say "going to İstanbul", "coming from Ankara", "living in Ankara". In Turkish we have case suffixes.

If there is no conjugable verb then there is no case suffix.

On the other hand genitive is different. Unlike the case suffixes it doesn't create a relation between the verb and a noun but between two nouns.

A good strategy is to learn all case suffixes when you study the verbs. Case suffixes are there because there must be a verb that uses that case. In a sentence change the verb and the case suffix will change. Remove the verb and the case suffix will go. You can not study a case suffix without learning the verbs that use that case. For instance you are going 'to', looking 'to', smiling 'to' and you are coming 'from', falling 'from', escaping 'from' etc.

Genitive can be studied independent than verbs. It has to do with nouns. For instance "İstanbul'un havası", "Ali'nin evi" etc.

As much as I can see in my grammar (written for university students of Turkish language), genitive is treated as regular noun case, not only because it exists parallelly with possessive mode (nominal words with possesive suffixes), but also because it has not only possesive meaning (like "Saxon genitive" in English) but also partitive and some others as well. There are several examples there:

1) feature: karın beyazlığı, içkinin zararlıgı
2) relation of functional dependance: okulun müdürü, hastanenin başhemşiresi
3) spatial and temporal relations: ayın ortası, sabahın beşinde
4) relation of a part towards the totality and distinguishing by quality: kadınların hangisi?, tilklerin ikisi, talebelerin en çalışkanı, tembellerın tembeli
5) totality of persons or things: insanların türmü
6) unit of measurement: benzinin litresi
7) subjective genitive: askerlerin öldürmesi
8) objective genitive: askerlerin öldürülmesi, hırsızın tevkifi

Well, regular noun case or not? Who will help?

Some sources mention only five noun cases. Examples:
http://www.itusozluk.com/goster.php?t=ismin+halleri
http://www.fono.com.tr/?sf=icerik&makaleID=111&ktgID=236&hgsf=liste&ktgad=%C3%84%C2%B0talyanca%20Dilbilgisi&mn=2

Some sources mention six. This one for instance:
http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~guvenir/CATT/GrammarTutor/

It is possible to put the genitive in the same list. It doesn't make any difference where you put it. My point was that I was talking about the relation between noun cases and verbs. At this stage the genitive has no role but all the other noun cases have. It is, "-i sevmek, -e gitmek, -de yaşamak, -den hoşlanmak."

To a learner of Turkish as a second language, it is important to learn verbs with their noun cases. For instance a learner not only needs to know that 'sevmek' is 'to love' but that it is "-i sevmek". 'Sevmek' takes the -i case. All verbs take a case among the five noun cases.

In my lessons I use this "i bilmek", "-den hoşlanmak" version frequently. This help the learner to understand that noun cases are assigned to certain verbs.

Othervise ther learner is not going to understand why it is "İstanbul'u seviyorum" with 'u' and "Ali okula gitti" with 'a'.

Now I teach Turkish as a foreign language in two different schools in London and devide the subjects into smaller parts. There are many different subjects of course.

"Verbs and five noun cases" is one of the main subjects we have. At this stage the learner learns why it is,
"İstanbul çok güzel", "İstanbul'a gidiyorum", "İstanbul'u seviyorum", "İstanbul'da yaşıyorum" and "İstanbul'dan geliyorum".

The genitivie I have put into a different category. In this category we have these:
a. Possessive Adjectives (iyelik sıfatı ):benim, senin,...
b. Possessive Suffixes (İyelik eki ): arabam, araban, arabası
c. Genitive Case (Tamlayan Hali ): Ali'nin, İstanbul'un, etc.
d. Compound Nouns (isim tamlaması ) : "Ali'nin arabası", "İstanbul'un havası", "Benim adım" etc.

In the compound nouns subject we have the genitive and posessive suffix together. The first noun takes the genitive and the second noun takes the possessive suffix.

I see genetive and other cases in completely different categories because of usage and practical reasons.

I have added more information on my above post. You are right. If the genitive is to be considered together with the other noun cases than we could consider adding the -le case as well.

Thank you one more time. I even had wondered if vocative should be a noun case in Turkish, being the same as nominative, until I realized that here was the difference in stressed syllable. The learners who speak at least one of the Slavic languages have less problems with noun cases generally (our systems are even more complicated), but the position of stressed syllable in a word is still an aenigma for me. Thanks to my grammar, I grasped some rules, especially about stressed and non-stressed (enclitic) suffixes, but is there a chance to get a separate thread on that topic from you? That would help much in distinguishing the "homonimous" constructions which actually have different pronunciation, and it would resolve many of our dilemmas.

D.

I don't understand what you mean by stressed suffix and unstressed suffix. I don't use these terms myself and haven't seen them being used.

I'm guessing that you are talking about this issue:

When "İstanbul" becomes "İstanbul'da" we say it as "İs-tan-bul-da" but when it is "İstanbul'a" it is differenct. The "a" at the end is impossible to stress. Why? Because we generate the sounds according syllables. The syllables here are "İs-tan-bu-la" so you can never stress the 'a' at the end.

Smillarly 'okul' becomes 'okula' in dative. We say "Okula gidiyorum". But we can never stress the "a" in okula since the syllables are "o-ku-la".

Have a look on this topic:
SYLLABLING - A Basic Issue Of Turkish Pronunciation
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_1466

Syllabling is one of the topics I teach in my lessons. I never understood why Turkish language sources ignore this basic issue.

I suppose different grammarians use different terms. I learnt it in English as "stressed syllable", but you also can say "accented", "emphasized" etc. The accentuation of simple words - like pronouns, nouns, adverbs, adjectives etc. can be found in some better dictionaries (e.g. baBA, bıçAK, SOnra, etc.), but it is rather difficult to learn which suffixes are to be pronounced with emphazis (vurgu), and which ones not. For example: babA - babaLAR - babalarıMIZ - babalarımızDAN. Sufixes -ler/lar, possessive suffixes, ablative suffix and many others are pronounced with emphazis, and some of them not - so-called "enclitical suffixes" (like in personal suffixes for the predicate nominative, like "dokTORum - I am a doctor) - which makes the great difference between seemingly homonymous words:
gelMEM - my coming; GELmem - I don't come
VARdı - there was; varDI - he arrived
KIZsın - you are girl; kızSIN - let him be angry!
etc.
Of course native Turkish speakers don't have problems to make the difference and stress the right syllable, but it is very hard for strange learners.

The second problem is accentuation (melody) of a phrase/sentence, with all the mentioned problems of homonymity. I rewrite two examples:

Çalış__baban__gibi // BOŞ__OTURMA! – Work like your father, don't sit idle!
ÇALIŞ // baban__gibi__boş__oturma! – Work, don't sit idle like your father!

The third problem of accentuation are - as I have found - three types of accent. For these, I do not know exact terms, so I translate literally:
1) musical or melodical accent (the syllable is pronounced a bit higher)
2) dynamic or expiratory (the strongest syllable in a word, with the strong expiration)
3) secundary expiratory accent - ...but the explanation is so long an complicated that I won't write it here.

Hope I managed to explain some of the most acute problems with accentuation. Suppose many foreign learners have the same problems. I can hear some Turkish word or sentence thousand times, but I just cannot remember its accent, because I cannot "classify" it in my mind as a consequence of some phonetical rule.

Regards, D.

I see your point. These are too much detail I think. If you ignore any stress you should be fine. There is very little difference between "vardı" as "arrived" and "vardı" as "there was". Simply follow the syllables and say "var-dı" without any stress just simply straight forward as "var+dı", and you will be fine.

If you are trying to learn Turkish by following verbal language you are not going to make it. Ignore spoken language and concentrate on written langauge.

Spoken language has too many irregularities and it has too limited vocabulary. You need exactly the opposite. You need more vocabulary and smooth progress.

My suggestion is to read. Read like you would never need to talk in Turkish. If you build enough vocabulary and if you understand written sentences, no matter if you haven't talked to anybody şin Turkish, believe me all the verbal aspect of the langauge will be a matter to be solved in one day.

Distraction by extreme deatials is going to hold you back. Read a childrens book and if you understand half of it read another book and then another.

When I was learning English I was reading a new Sherlock Holmes book every day. At this time I had a good vocabulary plus I had a sufficient grammar, although I didn't study much, but I had no idea I was pronouncing many words incorrectly. For instance I didn't know that I couldn't pronounce the word "sure" correctly. I thought it was pronounced like the s in to sue. Did this stop me building up vocabulary? Not at all.

Pronounciation details will correct themselves immediately when the right time comes. All you need is vocabulary and you are not going to find it in verbal langauge.

Sorry if asked too much, but that's the problem with lingiuistics-lovers. I think you had said in one of your old posts (or it was somebody other) that there are different types of learners - those who grasp foreign language "by ear" and those who must systemize all the grammar almost mathematically in their heads first. I am of the last ones. I've already started with easy texts (a little digression - I liked your "picture books - excellent thing for beginners!!! - hope you will do some more) and I can translate a bit, but I am still not able to talk at all. I am afraid it will happen just the same as when I was learning Russian myself. After all those years I can read it, translate it and even write it, but I hardly speak it. On the contrary, when I was learning Medieval Slavic - which is "dead" language, just as Latin - I practized it with my husband, and I was able to talk (I remember how my proffesor at the university was surprised ). I admire your advice as words of an experienced teacher, and I hope you are right, but I will still like to see a thread about accentuation here. In fact, I started similar thread few months ago, but nobody answered. Or even better - a grammar page, like those that already exist. It would helpo much.

Thanks once again, and I promise not to be so boring in future, but thgis topic really got me interested in.

Regards, D.

We are here to help. Right now I don't have time to investigate on this deep suject. There are too many details to consider when it comes to pronounciation. There are some secondary sounds of vowels. For instance genç and gen have different 'e' sounds. The first and second a is different in "daha". Future tense is pronounced different than written such as geleceğim is pronounced as geliceğm.

There are too many details. You are right. It would be perfect if we had these topics covered somewhere including sound files.

Well, I am staying in hope you will write about all that one day, and that it would be soon! Thank you.

D.

Thank you, aslan2! In fact, I have some similar examples in my grammar book, but it's hard to grasp the rule just from a few sentences. I know the accentuation was not the topic here, but as it is tightly connected to suffixes (and thus to noun cases), hope I didn't miss the point. The accens and disiguishing of homonymous words/phrases is a great problem for learners who don't have possibility to listen (in my country it's very hard to find even the simpliest "acemi" assimils). If you are in mood for a new thread about accents... I can say only thank you!

Best regards,
D.