the name of the suffering,patience,love and loyalty>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nG_HYbizvw

Why are all these women in headscarfs and in a village setting? You make such videos and then are surprised about the kinds of stereotypes that people have about Turks.

maybe one can be a simple suburban hard working anatolian woman with lovely headscarfs and then there are the model-like muslim
women with fashionable scarfs who work in the big city. What is the message?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with köylü women, they often lead hard lives and yet they are so strong. One should never forget the diversity in Turkey. Maşallah I think it is a beautiful video.

and i think our country very good sample for all other countries with the rich cultural diversities,and pity most of foreigners who visiting our country with only beachs,high life places and the dim bars,but Turkey not only em,you will see so many simple goodness when you go away from high life places....

a little question: is there any connection between those true hard working anatolian women and those models? just couldnt get it.
thank you

The models at the last part of the video represent Islamic women. And the person who made that video is trying to show the contrast and differences between Anatolian women and Islamic women.

That video makes a lot of sense to Turkish people, and has a special meaning in it.

I don't get whta is the point of the film?
I agree - the first part is about anatolian women and the clohts they are wearing are turkish not muslim, and that is true that aome turkish women look really fashionable is scarfs on their heads - but what is the connetcion between tose two parts of the film and Karadenizli ( I guess) slogans in it????

You got it right. The video doesn't necessarily have to make sense to you.

well said trudy, it was only a question that got asked but never got answered.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You like it or not, but this is how 80% of turkish women are (edit: later I also found that percentage high, I think it's better not to give a percentage). Why would we hide them and show just a little portion of turkish women that are "modern western type dressed" women?
These type of women you would like to see just exist in the cities, not even in anatolian cities. Even in İstanbul, they exist because they have just come from their villages and Turkey is not a country that has completely urbanized.
In Turkey when we say anatolian women, we understand the village people. It's very easy to judge a whole people from outside, but how would you dress like if you were to born in one of these villages? These women work in the fields, carry big loads on their backs, do the house work etc and they don't go to hair dressers. They have been dressing like this since hundreds of years, as someone said, in the east european countries, or in Georgia, in Armenia or in the russian villages, women dress like this as well.
In Turkey only the village girls that are too lucky to win a university education (it costs a lot to pass that exam), go to big cities and dress like the city people. But usually the hopes of these people are small, limited to just being like their mothers, marrying, having children etc. Expecting a turkish village girl to be a big women's right defender is far from reality.

The patriarchy is not a new thing, and it does not exist just in muslum countries. Even in one of the most modern countries France since the middle 1900s women didn't have the right to vote or even to have a bank account in their names.
So, just blaming people just because who they are today is pointless, because I'm sure if you were born as a girl in one of these villages, you wouldn't be what you are today. I think while being a passionate feminist or a women's right defender, you're sometimes being blind.
So, you like it or not, this is the face of Anatolian women, but instead of looking down on them, you can try to understand them.

+1000 mltm

This is 'Turkish Class' web site, so we discuss 'Turkey' here, not 'Poland'. I don't even get it where the topic of Poland came from if not from qdemir's attempt to attack me for my opinion about Turkish women's situation (what was so hurtful in it anyway?). I don't have to respond to his question in such a context and it doesn't mean that I'm avoiding this topic or that I'm oblivious to what is happening in my own backyard.

Mltm, you are very wrong about me. I don't know how you concluded from my last post that I'm blind I think that you just decided for me what it is that I think and don't care to actually look through the old impression... You are judgmental about me but attack me for being judgmental, so weird...

by the way my cousin was also wearing all these till she entered university in isatnbul but she wears jeans etc. in istanbul but she wears triditional clothes when she went to blacksea..it is her choice...good night u all

reading posts - having fun.
hmmm... i havent noticed anyone telling that wearing traditional (in its way sympathetic) anatolian garments is bad.
i understood mltm was only stating that those women marry and raise children only, she didnt say it was wrong, but some people love twisting words.
as far as i know it happens so that the majority of village women think only of marriage and children, nothing more beyond, understandable they are raised so since their birth and most of them even dont see any other alternative to that style. also understandable.
why just stating facts hurts people? a complex?

I will add just my small meaning to this subject shortly.

I cant look behind peoples eyes and see their true thoughts when I dont know them, but the lines of life on the faces of the women in traditional lcothing in İzmir that sell herbs on the streets tell a 1000 stories. But in most of the women, one of these stories is content, satisfied with their lives. Maybe because of not knowing better, maybe because this is Turkish lifestyle in many parts and.. Turkish people maybe live with lots of pain, but all the eyes I have seen carry life in them.


All I wished for is that people would get equal chances in education. Then, you can decide for yourself what you would want to do. But at least the choice will be yours.

Maybe Turkish born understand the video about these seemingly contrasting women. There only seemed to be one thing in common and that was headgear. How we as individuals view this personally is reflective of our own particulary ego/personality/environment...even state of mind at the time of viewing it. BUT what is the REAL message...is probably only known by the producer's own ego hehe

...Now Where's the video with hardworking simple man-folk and gorgeous male models? (my humble humor

tap tap..Im waiting...MRX..

How did i ignore this thread for days? Very very interesting film and a very important message.

First off all,

1)Folkloric clothes of Turkish people
and
2)economical and social problems of Turkish people

are

two different things.

I was answering Catwoman's statements related to Turkish villagers' clothes.

But Catwoman changed the subject suddenly and wrote a comment on Turkish women's social and economical troubles.

Firstly, let me make it clear the cloth issue.

Regardless the stereotyped image of Turkish people, show the Turkish people as who they exactly are.

If you are to show the Turkish villagers, show the exact picture, like the video does in this thread.

The point is that Turkish people are neither a traditionally European people, nor a Arabic people.

As for the Turkish women rights issue;

This web site would be one of the last places (If not the last) to discuss Turkish people's social problems, mainly because of the fact that the issue would be discussed with foreigners most of whom are merely tourists.

The other reason is that We Turks have already been discussing the issue for ages. Nearly all questions have been answered by Turkish sociologists and intellectuals since 1850's.

For instance, Namik Kemal, who was a brilliant Turkish intellectual, pointed out many problems of Turkish women, and explained the solutions in 1860's.

www.wikipedia.org/Namik_Kemal

There're many university researches on the tradional problems of Turkish women in Turkey.

So, what are you expecting to achive in discussing the issue with the people of Turkey, unless your intention is annoying the local people.

What's the real point really, Catwoman?

The most demonstrative posts would exactly be like the below one If we were to discuss the issue with a couple of tourists.

"Okkay, now let's see Turkish men's videos."

Enough is enough.

Please stop telling Turkish people their own people.

I have a comment and/or question about headscarf.

I was talking to my friend in East turkey last night and he mentioned that all the women in his family and cousins/friends etc. wear plain BLACK cloth to cover their hair when they go out because fancy/multi-colored silk headscarfs draw a lot of attention. They are traditional/religious types.

Is this common in Eastern part of turkey or is it just his family?

I had bought some nice silk scarfs with flowers, multi-colored etc. but he says I can give it as gifts but the women would only wear it in the privacy of their homes. I was kind of irritated with this. Any thoughts on this?

catwoman, I simply asked you to tell us about women in your home country, Poland to know about the issue from the first hand rather than the second hand. You refused to tell us about women in Poland. But I hope you will share your comments on the following article with us?

The article was compiled by the feminists:
Beata Fiszer
Jolanta Plakwicz
Anka Siwek


WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION

Women's representation at decision-making lev el is unequal in Poland. There are 60 women out of 460 parliamentarians a nd 13 women senators out of 100. There are 7,002 women at the gmina level out of 52,075 councillors. The percentage of women at decision-making level has been low and is decreasing.

For years, the number of women ministers (cabinet members) has not been exceeding two (one at present).

At the highest managerial positions in corpoate business women are practically non-existent.

There are no women members of the Council of the Polish Broadcasting Corporation and practically no women heading its m ain departments.

Editors-in-chief of main Polish opinion-making newspapers and magazines are all men.
LABOUR MARKET

Since there is no equal status legislation in Poland, women are discriminated also in the labour market. Job offers still include preferences as to the sex of the applicant, employers still de mand doctor's certificates that a woman applicant is not pregnant, and ther e still exists a list of jobs that women cannot be legally employed at (concerning mainly pregnant women but also all women as regards a job of a miner).

Women earn 35 per cent less than men in compa rable positions. In 1996, the average wages/salary for men was PLN 943.26 and for women PLN 747.24.(Statistical Yearbook, 1998).

Men have higher employment rate (59.8 than w omen (44.0, and women have higher unemployment rate (12.0 than men (8.7). The average duration of a job search is also longer for women than for men. (Statistical Yearbook, 1998).

These tendencies persist. Some sources in Pol and quote even bigger discrepancies between men and women in these fields. (Fuszara, March 1996: managerial positions - men's average PLN 1,725, women's average PLN 1,301, experts - men's average PLN 1,217, women's average PLN 898).

Unemployed women are not treated equally by s tate job agencies. The attitude that women have their husbands to maintain them still prevails in Poland.

Paradoxical example: a state job agency in Rzeszow (Southern Poland) threatened that it would take away unemployment bene fits from women who refused to take jobs in escort agencies (brothels) in t hat region.

Women aged 55 to 60 are often subject to violation of their labour rights. The concept that women should retire earlier ( due to domestic obligations towards their grandchildren) still prevails in Poland and is often used by employers as a pretext to force women to r etire earlier. The Civil Rights Commissioner had lately intervened in case o f women civil servants who were being forced to retire during the reform of state administration (1997).

After many years of preparations, on January 1, 1999, a new retirement law came into force. The law provides that wome n should retire at 60 and men at 65. The government suggestion to amend the law in order for women to be able to choose their age of retirement be tween 60 and 65 has been rejected by the Senat. The unequal retirement age f or women means that women will get in practice only up to 61.8 per cent r etirement pension of men.
FOREIGN (MIGRANT) WOMEN AND REFUGEES

Contrary to what is written in the previous g overnment report, the PSF Women's Centre knows of a growing number of cases conc erning unequal treatment of women foreigners in Poland. The phenomenon of for eign workers and refugees in Poland is still new and the situation of women is often much more complicated than men. The Polish authorities are se ldom informed of gender implications of the phenomenon. Rough estimation of our organization shows that the law on foreigners and refugees in Pola nd would need further elaboration in order to fully guarantee the rights and freedoms acknowledged by the ICCPR.

For instance, an Armenian woman who applied for permanent residence in Poland after five years of legal stay was order ed to leave the country within two weeks because in the opinion of the Vo ivodship Office for Foreigners she "earned too little to maintain her family i n such an expensive country as Poland".
(See also the situation of foreign prostitutes in Poland.)
REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS

Maternity
The Preamble to the ICCPR states that everyone has a right to "inherent dignity of the human person". Many women in Poland report on violation of this right as regards the conditions in gynaeco logical hospitals and maternity wards. Reported cases include violations of such rights as the right to free choice on breast-feeding, keeping a woman's own clothes, to choose or refuse the method of anesthesis, not to be isolated from the newly born child, etc.

Abortion
In its previous report the government of Poland does not mention the impact of the new abortion law on women in Poland and does not seem to treat it as a serious violation of women's reproductive rights, as included in Art. 9, 17,18,19,26 of the ICCPR.

Protection of the Human Foetus and the Conditions for Admissibility of Abortion Act dated January 7, 1993 constitutes a serious threat to women's lives (Article 6 of ICCPR, and Article 20 of the Polish Constitution)). It results in practice in frequent refusal by public medical institutions of delivering legal abortion services to women whose life and health are endangered by pregnancy.

Practical implementation of the Act frequently results in cases when women face difficulties in obtaining doctor's recommendation for abortion. Such infringement of women's rights also often occurs when pregnancy is a result of rape due to prolonged prosecutor's procedures (abortion is legal only for women who are less than 12 weeks pregnant).

For instance, in 1998 a 14-year-old girl was raped in Slupsk (Northern Poland), the prosecutor issued a certificate allowing her to get abortion, however, the medical staff refused to perform abortion for she was pregnant 12 weeks and 6 days at the time.

In 1995 the Main Council for Medical Ethics issued Commentary to the Code of Medical Doctors' Ethics. The Commentary leaves no doubts as to the interpretation of the Art. 4 of the Code referring to the so-called "conscious clause": "to fulfil their duties the medical doctors are free to act in accordance with their conscious and contemporary medical knowledge" had been interpreted "(...) abortion may be refused in spite of the fact that it is legal and admissible due to a woman's health condition or any other conditions concerning conception".

Abortion has been denied to women not only by gynaecologists but also by anesthesiologists and the lower medical staff.

For instance, in 1997 a pregnant woman suffering from cardiovascular disease, mother of 8 children, possessing doctor's certificate for abortion due to health reasons, was denied anesthesis by medical staff in Slupsk ( Northern Poland).

Pressed by their authorities, many hospitals in Poland declared that abortion would not be performed at their premises. Paradoxically, many doctors working in such hospitals offer private (i llegal) abortion services to women. The Civil Rights Commissioner notified the Ministry of Health of such practice in 1997. The prices for illegal abortion are high and in case of post-abortion complications women are deprived of proper medical assistance because doctors refuse to bring women to hospitals. As a result of this, a woman died in Lodz in 1995.

Threatening to women's lives are also clandestine abortions (in 1996 a husband tried to perform an abortion on his wife by injecting penicillin into her uterus, of which she later died) as well as abortion tourism to countries, such as for instance Ukraine, where abortions are performed in unhealthy conditions.

In 1996 the Polish Parliament approved of an amendment to the Abortion Act allowing for abortion in "specially difficult life situation of a woman" (social indication). The Amendment was later submitted to the Cons titutional Tribunal, which rendered it unconstitutional.

State gathered data show 900 legal abortions in 1994, and 559 in 1995.

In 1995: 149 abortions were due to life threat, 370 to health threat, 33 to fetal injury and 7 due to rape indication. In 21 cases reported abortion was denied. 738 infants were abandoned in hospitals in that year and 13 women had a miscarriage as a result of being battered by their partners.

Women's organizations estimate the number of abortions per year at 40 to 50 thousand, of which 16 thousand are performed abroad (this estimation is, among others, based on data obtained from abortion tourism agencies).

The Statistical Yearbook, however, provides no data concerning illegal abortion, nor deaths or complications resulting from it.

The Abortion Act also compels the Ministry of National Education to introduce sex education programs to public school curricula as well as the government to provide single mothers with obligatory financial aid. In practice, however, financial aid provided by the government is not sufficient to encompass all of single mothers' group.

The government is also ineffective in the implementation of the Act as regards sex education in schools. Sex education textbooks recommended by the Polish Ministry of Education show heavy Catholic and anti-choice bias, and exclude information on important questions concerning human sexuality, for instance, full range of contraceptive methods, sexual orientation, etc.


Sterilisation
Sterilisation is legally forbidden in Poland by the Penal Code, Medical Doctors Act and Medical Doctors Code of Ethics.

Both women and men are equally deprived of this right. However, it is easier for a woman to obtain a voluntary (illegal) sterilisation (if she already has several children) than for a man (no matter how many children he has).

Contraception
The Medical Doctors' Chamber recommends that doctors should inform their patients about contraceptive methods only if requested.

There is limited range of contraceptives in the market and their prices are quite high.

The government refused to provide state subventions to any medicaments that may be used as contraceptives, including those used for hormone replacement therapy during menopause.

In 1998 the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Family announced that the government was intending to subsidize Viagra for men who have difficulties with procreation. So far the idea was dropped.

One of the above mentioned sex education text books (recommended by the Ministry of Education for secondary schools) includes the following statement on contraception: "(...) contraception cannot be treated as a proper norm of human sexual behaviour due to mor al harm it does to a human being"

FAMILY

Marriage and Divorce
The Polish Constitution defines marriage exclusively as a union of a man and a woman (Art. 18).

The Polish Civil Code constitutes different marriage age for men (21) and for women (18).

Divorce, according to the Polish law, may only be granted by a court. Recently, divorce may only be granted by a regional court, which violates the right to equal access to public service of those who live in remote areas.

As a result of the treaty between Poland and Vatican, the Polish law on marriage was changed in order to allow people to marry in churches (before a church wedding had not been recognized as a lawful marriage). There are now two types of lawful marriage, however, since the Catholic religion does not allow for a divorce, only civil divorce may be granted to Catholics in Poland.

According to the Polish civil law, divorce may only be granted in case of "marriage deterioration", which means, in practice, that the husband either drinks or beats his wife and children or does not bring money home and/or the wife refused to fulfil "her family obligations", i.e. either keep up the house and children or sex with the husband. Majority of divorce cases are filed by women and the main reason for it is "alcoholism of a husband", although it is well-known that these data often hide numerous instances of domestic violence and violence against women.

Domestic Violence
Domestic violence is above all violence against women. Women constitute majority of its victims. Almost 90 per cent of perpetrators are the victim's husbands or partners.

Police has long been reluctant to intervene in "family matters", however, since 1998 an education campaign was started: police men and women have been trained and a so-called "blue card" has been introduced, which, among other things, provides for a better statistics on domestic violence. The scope of domestic violence, however, still remains unknown. Women still keep this crime silent.

Generally in Poland a human right to due process (Art. 14 p.c. of the ICCPR) is often violated, which in case of domestic violence means that women are battered even more while the case is on trial (and often by men who are already sentenced to penalties in suspension). There are no court procedures that would limit perpetrator's freedom of movement (such as restriction order, etc.). The court order to move out (exmission from apartment) is seldom implemented and the police are reluctant to interfere even in cases of violence against an ex-wife.

In Poland a system of state protection of witnesses has not been built until date, except in cases of organized crime. This lack of protection often results in the growth of violence on the part of perpetrators against their victims as well as witnesses of the crime.

The Polish courts often treat domestic violence as a minor crime, pronounce low verdicts or dismiss cases.

Recommended norms regarding the number of shelters for battered women are not respected in Poland. For instance, in the capital city of Warsaw (approx. 2 million inhabitants) there are practically three to four shelters for women (mostly for single mothers). In the whole country there not more than 8 to 10 shelters for women victims of violence providing psychological, medical and legal aid.

There are approximately 150 various consultancy centres, where women can obtain information and 130 to 150 shelters for homeless people, where victims of domestic violence can also find shelter. However, their general state results in frequent incidents of sexual harassment and rape of these women.

For instance, a homeless woman was raped by an ex-client of the Monar shelter upgraded to become its manager, imprisoned there by him and forced to bear his child.

After the Beijing Conference the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Women and Family designed a National Program for Women, part of which (co-financed by UNDP) was devoted to the issue of violence against women. The Program aimed at establishing a system of empowering women victims of domestic violence, also in the economic sphere.

In 1997 when the new government came into power, the office of the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Women and Family was changed into the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Family headed by a man. His first decision was to dismiss the Program Council and stop the Program's implementation. In the view of the present Plenipotentiary, the question of domestic violence in Poland has been exaggerated by the previous government for purely political reasons.

Official statistics categorize domestic violence as a crime against family and show that 80 per cent of its victims are women. In 1995, the police intervened 921,000 times in cases of "family crisis", 20,000 persons were investigated as suspected of domestic violence.

In 1996, the courts issued verdicts in 15,412 trials. 90.1 per cent of perpetrators got suspended penalties, and 76.5 per cent of them got penalties ranging from six months to one year imprisonment.

Women victims of domestic violence are often subject to torture (Art. 7 of the ICCPR).

For instance, in the case on domestic violence it was revealed that a 21 year old husband had been torturing his wife for the past two years, including cutting off her upper lip with scissors.

Sexual Harassment and Rape
Contrary to the attitude of the Polish government expressed in its previous report, Polish women's organizations underst and rape and sexual harassment as forms of torture and serious violations of Art. 7 of the ICCPR.

Generally, the new Polish Penal Code (1998) provides for lower penalties for sexual harassment (up to 3 years) than the previous one (from 6 months to 5 years).

Rape is now treated as a crime against sexual freedom and morality (the previous Code - a crime against human freedom - which was more progressive). The new Code explicitly defines gang rape as a rape committed by at least 2 or more persons (in the old Code - more than 2) and marital rape and a rape of a prostitute as forms of statutory rape.

Police statistics includes no data on sexual harassment or rape in marriage. Raped wives seldom file for cases in courts and seldom report the crime to the police. (The number of policewomen is very low in Poland). On the other hand, Polish sexologists often emphasize rape in marriage to be frequently reported during therapy sessions.

For instance, in 1994 a court sentenced Leslaw S. to 2.5 year imprisonment for sexual assault on his wife, who jumped from the window of their 3rd floor apartment in order to survive his attempt of rape.

Low statistics on rape reporting have a lot to do with the double victimization of rape victims, who have to undergo additional trauma connected with police and court procedures in such cases. The hearings are not registered on (video) tape , there is no safe system of perpetrator's identification. As in case of domestic violence, there is no system of protection of the victims and witnesses. The victims are often afraid of testifying, especially when their "proper sexual conduct" is questioned, as is often the case of women victims of rape. The attitude that women are responsible for sexual behaviour of men still persists within law enforcement institutions in Poland.

For instance, in case of teenage girls (11-17 years old) raped by a group of policemen in By tom, a lot of attention was attached to the reasons of "their being out late at night". Although the policemen were sus pected of alleged crimes, the pressure exerted on the victims and other witnesses resulted in prolonged investigation (it lasted for more than two years) until the court's decision was to finally release the accused from temporary arrest.

The courts investigate more than 2 thousand rape cases per year.

There is a tendency in courts to pronounce lower verdicts in rape cases than before.

For instance, in 1998 a court in Opole (Western Poland) sentenced young men guilty of specially cruel gang rape of a 14-year old girl to 1.5-2 year suspended imprisonment because "before it happened, their reputation had been very good".

Prostitution and Trafficking in Women
The Polish government report (August 1992-December 1994) remains silent on this matter, in the view of the PSF Women's Centre, however, there are important violations of women's rights in the area of prostitution and trafficking in women. (See also: the report of UN Special Rapporteur to Poland, issued in December 1996 and referring to the the years described in the government report).

The new Penal Code forbids trafficking in human persons (penalty not less than 3 years imprisonment) and trafficking for prostitution (in case of adolescents and without a consent of persons trafficked abroad - penalty from 1 year to 10 years imprisonment).

In 1994, there were 49 cases of women trafficked from Poland abroad (48 of them were submitted to court).

In 1997, 200 women (aged 15-27) were reported as "missing".

In the same year, a spectacular trial of a Polish trafficker (Piotr Rusol) took place. He was sentenced to 12 years of imprisonment for trafficking at least 54 women to Germany and Switzerland and helping other groups to traffick at least 84 women to Holland and Belgium.

Prostitution in Poland has a quasi-legal status. It is not recognized as work. Prostitutes pay no taxes and are not entitled to social benefits. The penal code forbids making profit out of someone else's prostitution. Brothels are forbidden but the so-called escort agencies proliferate in Poland.

Foreign prostitution (mainly from ex-Soviet countries and Bulgaria) has been growing in Poland. The situation of foreign prostitutes has much worsened lately, due to various quasi-legal interventions against them by the Polish authorities and police.

There are no statistics on the numbers of for eign women trafficked for prostitution to Poland, but data on foreign women deported from Poland show constant increase. Foreign prostitutes are detained under various pretexts and deported from Poland when their tourist visa (30 days) expires without any possibility for appeal - the 6 days period for appeal is not being kept and there is no possibility for foreigners to appeal the Polish authorities decision from abroad. (Foreigners in general have no right to stay in Poland while their appeal is considered by the Polish authorities).

In 1997 - 5,707 foreigners were compelled to deportation, of which 3,794 persons were deported. (Similarly to other statistics in Poland, these data are not gender segregated).

The media informed that the first deportation of prostitutes took place in November 1995 (no data available).

In 1996 - 11 police raids took place - 379 persons were deported.

In 1997 - it is estimated that 15 per cent of all deportations (2,538) concerned prostitutes, i.e. 380 women were deported, mostly from areas along the Polish-German border.

Interesting photos. Only wished I'd worked hard enough on my Turkish to read the messages on the slideshow. Viva Turkiye!

well,i think we talking about same things again and again,and it turned as a vicious circle.All countries and falks have their own specialities and thats the sort of wealth for big world family.And all customs or traditions comes from deep of history,trying to understand reasons of this realitities better then to judge other life stilies,cultures and beliefs.noone of us can't be bossy about that,or noone never have any right about judgind others about their life prefers.Sure we have to talk all about whats goin on all over world for make better things,but with more tolerance and calm,and we have to be positive on everything even if the things not true for us.So how come a Turk can think about the things as a foreigner aswell how a foreigner can't understand all realities of Turkish people or other cultures.we can't perceive everything without live em fully,so pls a bit more tolerance,thats all..

I think that the huge message is not only off-topic, in the same time it is in no way in any proportion with the subject of the thread itself!

I understand you questioning Catwoman, but by such reactions you make the situation between the two of you only worse. If you (two) go on this way, you will reach a day that you are not trying to convince the other of your right, but just say anything to be in your right! Please stop this and lets turn back to the thread.


KeithL, can you tell us which message you saw?

i think theres a big debate,but honest couldn't get yet whats the problem??

well,i like to share all about my lovely country and people withyou all as much as i can.But seems sometime that gives trouble to forum,and not easy to understand that why?every country and people have their own specialites with goods&bads,aren't we all trying to creat a friendship circle one here?but seems sometime someof us lost our endure.Conversation is nice but despise never!!!!Sure there r some big social problems in our country to and one of em women rights,anyhow i always proud with Anatolian women about their suffer,patiance and lyalty (thats mean never i defence this bad conditions of Anatolaian women and i believe that they deserve all the bests)

and know sometings more about Turkish women from another window>>http://turkeytravelplanner.com/details/WomenTravelers/WomenInTkSociety.html

This is not just an innocent video however showing women in different settings in turkey. It is a setup political message. The video footage of the women in Anatolia is real. Showing them in their real dress, doing real work. An accurate portrayal of their lives.
But, the footage at the end, the "modern muslim" women. This footage is setup. Actresses, costumes, who knows. They did not attempt to catch these women in a natural way, living their lives as they did the Anatolian women. These pictures are "staged".
But of course, the maker of this video does it for the purpose of his message.

theres a saying in Turkish ''öküz altında buzağı aramak'',and i think thats the one of social addiction?and i believe that who defence women rights very highly they don't observe their rights deeply?...

Waow! I was late to here... Looks like a nice discussion going on.

Konu çok basit . Anadolu da yaşayan müslüman kadınlar, metropollerde yaşayan nereden geldiği belirsiz paralarla crem de la crem yaşamlar süren, hollywood sosyetesinden tek farkları başlarındaki örtü olan müslüman kadınları anlamıyorlar, kendilerinden kabul etmiyorlar. Fonda çalan Sezen Aksu şarkısının anlattığı hayatı yaşayan kadınlar dekolte giyen kadınlarla, parisien marka pantolonlu eşarplı takımlar giyen kadınlar arasında bir fark görmüyorlar. Klipte fon olarak seçlen yeşilli kırmızılı renkler ve temiz kalpli insanların ağzından yapılan yorumlar gerçeği anlatıyor. Hediye paketi gibi süslenip üstüne iki de fiyonk attın mı tamam diyen başÃ¶rtülü kadınlar, eşlerinin makamı aksini söylese de Türkiye' deki inançlı kadınların tamamını temsil etmiyor. Beni hiç etmiyor.

inanç sömürüsüne elbette hayır,fakat çok masum ülke gerçeklerini aşırı politize etmeninde hiç bir anlamı omadığı kanısındayım,unutmayalımki bu ülke ve dünya hepimizin ve birbirimize herzamankinden daha çok ihtiyacımız var dostlar...

thats no harm when we been aware of if its cristicize or denigrate...

I agree libralady!!

Kendini koruyamayan rejimler yok olmaya mahkumdur. Demokrasi herkes istediğini yapsın demek değildir. Hele bizdeki çoğulcu demokrasi bambaşka birşey. Eğer demokrasi, altını sessizce dinamitlemeye çalışanlara karşı önlemler alamazsa yok olur gider. Demokasinin kendini savunmaya çalışmasını, yine demokrasiyi öne sürerek engellemek, iyi niyetli bile olsak doğru değildir. Evet demokrasi, herkes için demokrasi, inancın örtünün tartışılmadığı, açın, çıplağın, işsizin tartışıldığı bir demokrasi. Bu ülkenin gündemine arka bahçe söylemleriyle başÃ¶rtüsünü sokanlar, Merve Kavakçı ları Ata mın kurduğu mecliste yemin ettirenler, şimdi bu tartışmalardan rahatsız olmamalı. 80 lı yıllarda arkadaşlarının okey masasından kalkıp namazını kılan bir babanın, başı geleneksel biçimde önden bir düğümle bağlanmış eşarpla kapalı olan bir annenin , yaz tatillerinde mahalle camiinde dua öğrenen kızıyım. Bugün o günlerdeki temiz ve dürüst siyasi anlam taşımayan müslümanlığı, içki masasında sohbete katılıp içmeyen arkadaşlarını yargılamayan insanların demokrasisini yaşamıyorsak; sebebi şÃ¶yle bağlarsan bilmemkimlerden, böyle bağlarsan diğer bilmemkimlerdensin diyenlerdir. İslamın görgüsüyle yetişmiş insanları bile düzenbazlık, hoşgörüsüzlük, dolandırıcılık, takıyyeleriyle uç kutuplara iten bu insanlar, anadoluya hiç kimsenin vermediği, veremeyeceği zararı verdiler. Koyun koyuna yaşayan bizleri değerlerimizden, kendimizden uzaklaştırdılar.

Dear catwomen
trying not to be offensive but everytime you wrote an opinion, I feel some hostility in it. Consider this is a site for learning turkish, ı think may be someone wants to learn. Also I am Turkish teacher for Turks, my English level is just enough for understanding. May be someone is polite enough to translate what ı said before. May be next time you can find someone else to fight but me.

theres no place for double standard in democracies,u r either democrat or not,how can you force other one to live like you or to think like you,if the people don't give any harm to rules???

Thats my point! Harming the rules! Watch the news today!

news??huh,do you believe all news objective????

I believe what ı see. I saw someone swearing our constution courts, some school girls praying at school secretly and fighting with their parents for it. Didn't you see all of them? They were actual taping, not someone elses opinion!

if they praying secretly thats not fault of this innocent kids and i think courts not holy offices,so we all can critise courts' decisions,i don't want make any disrespect to a teacher,but i think you don't think events objective

Not holy offices yes, but still they are the one makes laws and keeps democracy alive. This is what ı was talking about before. Rules! Innocent kids can pray at their home. School takes 6 hours most, they will miss just 1 or 2 pray which is allowed to join the next one. So this is not about praying, this is about brainwashing, raising political support for next 10 years. No body is against anybody's beliefs here. Go some appropriate place and do whatever you need to do. This is showing off, pushing authorities to do something. Since religion is strict dogma, nobody will ask " can't you do your praying at home with the way your parents does?"

no worries,if it goes this way they will ask at home even as ssson as.well,sure we all have to observe common rules,especially on public areas and places,and secualrism is the one of strongest balance of all democraices,noone of can't deny that,but as if you don't know and live in our traditions,and as if u r strangers of the people which you born and raised in???

which one of us can say i love this country more then everyone,and how come some part of people can say we r the guaranties of this country,this country all of us and we all have to love it more then each other and respect to rules in democratical criterions,and we all have to hug and accept each other with our all sweet differences...

more tolerance,more respect,more friendship,more endurance,all em really difficult things?????

Are you resisting to understand? My parents are traditional muslims and ı have raised as one. But never attempt to do anything to broke the rules of democrasy or secularism. Islam says you have to teach the religion to your kids. My parents taught me to love my god, prophet, how to pray, how to respect also, love my country, Atatürk, obey the rules of republic. Thats the way I am. If you want to pray at school hours, our religion says you can do it even with blinking and thinking. Making some secret places at public area means you are against the rules at my book. What it means in your book? Being a good muslim at age 13?

I did not made the rules that says you can not wear scarf on public places you can not leave your job at job hours (school too) This are not my rules they are braking. Republican rules. I see some of you still think "no harm with praying" well for your children's sake think twice, will they let your grandsons live however they wants?

Democracy ? Democracy ?
Where did he go ?
It was just here a couple of seconds ago....???....

There is no freedom in any government system but rules.
Or it would be called something like freocracy.
Better to keep rules of democracy, which is different in every country.
There is no perfect democracy as there is no perfect human. So it is so easy to adapt/change democracy into whatever you want playing with people, brainwashing, fake news etc.
And you still feel/call it as democracy. Because democracy is you and you are the democracy.

Why are all these women in headscarfs and in a village setting? You make such videos and then are surprised about the kinds of stereotypes that people have about Turks.

Isn't it the same in guide books about Turkey, which are sold in abroad? Yes it's the culture, but a complicated culture, not just consists of these kind of women. Maybe the people who prepare these books and advertisements think that it will be attractive in these way. There are modern people all around the world-if clothing is a sign of being modern(?)I think they don't think much about the stereotypes that people have about Turks. Which is a pitty..Or do they really unconsciously want Turkish women to be like that?...

What a lovely video, thank you for posting it.

I don't know why such a thing should spark such controversy. I've been to Turkey and spent much time in the Köy and found most of the women there dress like this. So what? I even dressed like that myself when I was there. It's very comfortable. I made the mistake of taking some of my Western shoes. Forget it. I couldn't walk on the earth roads and my feet got pretty funky with the dirt getting in everything. There is a lot of wisdome in traditional dress. It has evolved to fit the needs of the environment.

Even in Istanbul, it was hard to walk on the cobblestone walkways. Much of our Western fashions are counter productive in as much as it's not functional for life.

As for having children. How many "older" women in the West spend mega $ to have the chance to be mothers? I must say there is something about Anatolian culture that enables them to raise wonderful children. The nicest children I've ever met are there.....you don't see the rebellious "out of control" teens you see in the West. Whatever they are doing, it works.

They may wear scarf because of religion.
They may wear scarf because of the work in field, protecting from sun and dust etc.
They may wear scarf because of religion and the work in the field etc.

The scenery is not disturbing me as it is not disturbing to see women without scarf.

What is the point on scarf ?
What if they are just trying to keep their religion rules ?
And what if they don't want to wear it ?

That scarf thing has started when I was at university in Ankara. I mean the major start of talks.
Some people were discovered entering exams instead of their friends. Even men.
There were some teachers/professors who were not accepting scarfed and heavy beard/mustache students into their classes.
--------
I have a funny story about it. In an opposite case.
I was attending some extra classes, as we all do, at the university. History of Seljuk Empire. I was a long haired student and the teacher was one of Wolf People who doesn't like people looks strange to Turkish culture, like long haired people. So, I was trying to hide from him, I mean sitting in back benches, trying not have an eye contact with him etc.. I love history. I was the most successful student in his exams, history was not my major though. He was surprised to see one of outer-students to history department had the highest marks. He called me several times, sending invitations through my friends but I have never talked to him. My grades would not mean anything to him if he saw me. I think.
--------
There also were some students using it as a political symbol in the garden of university, thus causing some fights among students.
So the university started not to accept students with scarf into the school. Was it a good decision ? No !
The phenomenon has spread throughout the country.

I am not against anything, but %100000 against usage of religion and religious symbols in politics.

Let people live however they want freely and think of other preventing steps to keep religion away from politics.
I am also ashamed to see some European countries banning scarf.

i sort of agree with sunflowerseed, to some extent, that the religion shouldnt mess around the politics and the state should stay secular away from all the religions.
imho the religion is a personal thing, it must be private, believe in religion? well, believe in it, but dont force it on others. thats all.

Catwoman, I am curious as to what your relationship is with Turkey. You seem to be on some kind of crusade to rescue poor Turkish women from their opressing society where they have no rights or freedom. However, I have to say that I have never spoken to any Turkish woman who didn't love their culture or lifestyle. Working hard, looking after their loved ones. The only people I have ever seen complain about it, are people who are not Turkish. To be honest, they are not forced into submission, to stay home and do nothing but cook and clean. Yes, it is expected mostly but not forced. Every experience I have with Turkish families has proven the fact that they find this way of life more of a partnership that works best for them. He works out of the house, she works in the house. And I personally, think the world could be a lot better if more countries were willing to work like this. So many women get caught up in being equal to men , they act as though its not their place to cook and clean, but are fine to go to pubs and leave their children with strangers to look after etc. So I was just curious, what experiences you have that make you feel Turkish women need saving?

Good grief, of course I am not saying parents who hire babysitters are bad parents. How on earth did you get that??

NOOOOOO flippin hec... haha no-one could be with their kids ALL the time ( without wanting to kill them occasionally ) The point I was trying to make was.... now I'm not sure how to put it without losing the point or offending again.... some of my old school friends who have kids, They feel that certain things like housework and preparing fresh meals is wasting time. They say ridiculous things like" women fought for years so I dont have to waste time on things like that" They are happy enough to give their kids junk food take-away every day and leave their child with anybody who will take them so they can go out drinking. There have been times they leave their kids with people they dont know last minute cus they hate to miss a night out, then their kids end up in some dodgy situations with the guys they bring home.

I was just catching up on reading these posts......what's up people???? Either poster's are taking up attack stance or they are in full on defensive mode.
How much energy is wasted with such negative back and forth squabbling?
Why do we allow ourselves to get so lit up by someone we really don't even know? Why do we expend so much of ourselves on these back and forth debates and take offense so easily?
Have a drink...relax !

Hey hey I signed you two up for the drinking-list. Just let us know what you want and it will be imaginary on your way Now quit it

Whom shall I shout at to get rid of my stress now ?

Not all the scarfs you see there are representative of Anatolian women or Turkish tradition.

Some represent a fundamentalist Islamic fraction, who is trying to play politics, hiding behind the scarfs and skirts of their women...

Here we start from the beginning again ...

ofcourse some of em playing,but thats not a true reason for to be against all...

1-Only a small percentage of turkish people live in rural areas.
Vast majority of Turks live in cities.Only Istanbuls population reached 25 million which is more than 1/3 of Turkey...add other cities to that in which tens of millions of people live...So how come some people claim only people who live in rural areas,farmers are the only representatives of turkish "culture"?
2-The purpose of this video may be open to interpretation but the reason for posting such a video here is clear,especially since this place have been invaded by islamist AKP propagandists who post anti-secular, anti state, pro headscarf islamist articles three times a day.They probably want to say with this: "Look this is the turkish culture! Wearing headscarfs! Türban is just a modernised version of it." Which is actually the oposite of the message of the video.'Cus it says in turkish that those political islamist "türban" wearing models have nothing in common with those hardworking humble rural women.Also they wear headscarf not for islamist reasons,- if you look closer you can see some oftheir hair- , but for tradition and protection from the sun 'cause they work in the farm all day long.

3-I think people who have a critical aproach and question the women rights in rural Turkey here have much more love and respect for those women than the ones who say they are "proud " of their condition and cloths and the way they live, cus it represents the "culture" they approve and want to preserve as islamists, who want to see women covered from head to toe, their role limited to geting married to the one their parents want them to, raising children and doing whats told by their husband, whom many of them didn't even had the chance to choose by themselves.
No need to attack catwoman and others just because they don't faint with delight and admiration to the "culture" when they see a 65 year old women wearing old ragged cloths and carrying heavy loads in her back while probably their men are playing cards in the "kahvehane".
I admire village people, they are wonderful in many ways, but the role of women is not one of those admirable qualities.

It's funny how some islamists who constantly talk about human rights and democracy when it comes to being allowed wearing headscarves in universities, get mad and accuse others of disrespecting the "culture" when people point out to severe woman rights violations in rural areas or islamist circles.

i never thought this lovely video will be reason for this such discussionsi just sent it for show apart of Turkish life and for proud with Anatolian women,my aim never was make a political discussion or meesage,but i see many of us so far from tolerance and looking for simple opportunies for the big political ravange,thats really sad

Ya rab!
I understand where you are coming from MrX67. Your efforts are applauded from this side and it is indeed sad to see that everything has to be turned into a combat on political views nowadays. Sigh.

MrX,
No one is criticizing you for posting the video. But the video is political. It doesnt try to hide that fact. So you should not be suprised nor offended when a political video generates a political discussion.

Ya rab!
I understand where you are coming from MrX67. Your efforts are applauded from this side and it is indeed sad to see that everything has to be turned into a combat on political views nowadays. Sigh

THERE ARE MANY OTHER PANELS WHERE ONE CAN DISCUSS POLITICS AND RELIGIOUS SUBJECTS IN DIGNITY. TRY AND KEEP, AT LEAST, SOME PLACES FREE OF YOUR SNEAKY POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS CRAP

AlphaF > where is that coming from? Surely you are not aware of my standpoints and I for one also do not wish to discuss them here because obviously it's not possible to have such a debate without swearing.

leander > would you kindly show me where I have have applauded anti-secular propaganda? And by the way I'm 100 % for keeping Turkey secular.

It is very sad that a few harmless photos on YouTube can provoke such unreasonable behaviour. Opinions will differ but does that mean everyone is wrong?

Is it not about time this thread was locked??

i think you sleeping and waking with the same political worries armegon,i didn't make anything for any political propaganda,but seems some some of friends very skilfull about that??no worries,might i do care more then you about woman rights or secularism.i believe and trust my country and people,i trust and respect to all organizations of my country,but i respect to cultural diversities and i believe things easier when we been tolerated to diversities...

i request to admins for close to thread,i think no need to talk about more?

mrx,
thats it, when islamists and others attacked catwoman, you seemed enjoying it and didnt ask to close the thread? when they spoke things that may fit your mentality it was ok.
now when some clever turks spoke up, and you want it to be closed? strange, you think so?

now im pretty sure you posted the video with some purpose, always acting as innocent as angel. i dont trust you.

i ask admins not to close the thread.

People are putting huge words in their mouths "ISLAMIST! PROPAGANDA!" - are you even aware of the meaning of these harsh words? Maybe the current political situation in Turkey is making you jump at the slightest reminder of your cultural heritage but there's no reason to attack the rest of us who's more acceptive and appreciative of cultural differences.
What's the big harm in elder women in a village setting? They are an important part of Turkey's heritage and there's nothing suspecious about it.
This is just going way too far. If you're afraid of anyone slightly köylü then go around for crying out loud.
I for one have much respect for these women because of their obvious strength and knowledge on life.

I've just watched the video,and I quite liked the first part,showing traditional Turkish women in their dress,but it sort of got a bit weird in the middle showing women from Paris?or some other European capital,what was that all about?are they saying that the head-dress in Paris is available/wanted by the women of rural villages in Turkey?hahaha good one,or is it some poor attempt at showing the differences between a Republic and a Democracy?like they are botheredall a bit odd.
When the film changed in the middle I thought it was an advert for some small time Birmingham indian clothing boutique
I've been reading the posts and I can't see what all the fuss is about,so someone posts a badly edited political film to youtube and?There is a lot worse crap on youtube in my opinion.
Anyway I enjoyed the first bit they also look similar to the women in Chile and South America I wonder if there has been some social/cultural connection at some point in the past?
I think you are all nuts for trying to debate the bones off some little film clip
I might send one in showing factories pumping millions of litres of crap and chemicals into our seas and air,I wonder if that would get the same respect as this little clip?

qdemir - where did you find these statistics? I'd like to see how it was 20-30 years ago if there are any records of it

I canoot understand what are you talking about?
Do you know history?
Türkiye is the first country in the world to allow woman to vote in the the world history.
Anatolian Women have been electing prime minister, minister, deputy, governor, president of law court, general manager, director, professor...
They are engineer, doctor, teacher, expert, officer, merchant, businesswoman...and housewife...

Thank you for the link

I was just wondering because I was looking to get something confirmed. If you go back to just 75 the percentage living in villages is 56...now I know there are perfectly normal explanations for this but I also think one of the explanations is that the army forced people to move to cities, especially in eastern Anatolia. I know loads and loads of people who have been köylü until 15-20 ago because it was dangerous for them to stay in the villages. It would be interesting to compare it to other countries though to see if there's a statistical connection.
Anyway this is off topic.

and yes Turkey has more important social and economical problems.Sure theres a political regime worries to,but i think thats the latest thing which worth to think.joblessness,living difficulties,social injustice,education etc... more imortant things to talk about then the political worries...

WHAT WE ARE FACING HERE IS STANDARD PKK PROPAGANDA...

1. SPRINKLE FEW RELIGIOUS CRAPS,
2. INSULT TURKISH ARMY,
3. CRY FOR PITY AND HELP FROM OUTSIDERS

THEY NEVER MENTION WHY NON-PKK KURDISH CITIZENS OF SOUTHEASTERN TURKEY HAD TO BE RELOCATED, IN THE FIRST PLACE. BECAUSE OTHER TURKS LIVING IN WESTERN TURKEY LOVED TO HAVE MORE KURDS AROUND?, or BECAUSE THOSE NON PPK KURDS HAD TO FACE PKK TERROR IF THEY DID NOT HELP PKK, YET FACE THE TURKISH ARMY IF THEY DID: A VERY DANGEORUS LIFE IN BOTH CASES.

I ADDRESS YOU ALL ...DO NOT FALL INTO THIS PKK TRAP...JUST IGNORE THEM...

I agree with everything you say Sunflower. And I don't mind a well mannered political discussion. I am only pointing out the video for what it is, to those who do not want to believe it, and explaining to those that do not understand it.

Why can't you guys be objective about this?
There is nothing reliable in those words, they are grasped out of thin air and have no relevancy in this case. Surely there are people out there who support what is stated in the capitalized post but no one on this forum as far as I have seen (you are welcome to prove it). And that is such a standard answer! Screaming "PROPAGANDA! ANTI-SECULARIST!" to anyone that doesn't see everything as black and white as you do. I thought this forum consisted of reasonable adults.
Did you ever stop for a moment and think that maybe some of us doesn't catch a political agenda in this clip? I'm not saying that there isn't one, but I for one didn't notice it and obviously MrX67 didn't either.

Well, I think the political thing in this clip is not its showing köylü women, women with scarfs, or hardworking women. Noone can say anything about someone showing reality. And not in every tiny clip there can be shown the whole diversity of a country, and it hasn't to do so either.
But I felt uneasy too on the combination of this women with the models in the second part, although I cannot say exactly what made me feel so. But I am sure there is a propaganda, as it is saying something about the real moslem women how they should be? Unlike the models?
I didn't understand the words exactly, but there was something like that. If someone could tell us what those words mean?

Perhaps..maybe Im wrong but..Recalling the clip...realizing a message that it leans toward one side of the coin more than the other. If it had leaned the other way, the modern islamic women would have most likely been portrayed in a more modern and natural 'work/home setting... Either side of the coins views...its a politically hot topic. The fact that it was 'women' portrayed instead of men is seemingly the biggest que for
one's own personal view/message of the clip?

Türkiye, The Turkish Culture, is the first country in the world to allow woman to vote in the world history according to the historical documents.
Anatolian Women have been electing prime minister, minister, deputy, governor, president of law court, general manager, director, professor...
They are engineer, worker, doctor, teacher, expert, officer, merchant, businesswoman...and housewife...
Anatolian Women is a respected people like you.
There are many women like Anatolian Women in every country.
Because mother is mother.
There are a lot of minorities in the foreign countries.
Are they pure ethnical groups in this planet?
All citizens have the same rules and rights as the rest of the people in the countries.
As you know, ”All humans are related, only difference is the time scale”.
There is only one ethnical group in this planet, it is humanity.
Are we really a person from the other side of the universe?
Nations, branches and clans are the families of the humanity tree by God in our planet…
And there is no minority in Türkiye according to Law Constitution and laws.For example, my aunts daughter married Kurdish guy last year.
The Kurdish and all other people in Türkiye are the first class and real one of Turkish ethnical family clans, they are Turks...
Turk Kurdish people and terrorist organization are different things.We never compare apples with pearles.
Terrorist organization is a humanity crime.
There is no terrorism in the Turkish Culture.
See = Turkish and Turk Otoman Empire History by
Caroline Finkel, Justin MacCarty, etc..Historians..
Because all they are Turks and Turkish Citizens according to Turkish Laws..
Human is human according to Great Turkish Culture world-wide.According to Turkish Poets Hacı Bektaş Veli, Yunus Emre, Mevlana, Aşık Veysel...
The Turkish Culture have come from Middle Asia, Anatolia and Turk Ottoman Empire (1300-1922) which ruled successfully Eastern Europe, Southern Africa, Anatolia, Middle East for 400-610 years.
I cannot understand some words exactly,
If someone could tell us what those words mean?
I don’t know English well like you.
But there is a meaningful Turkish proverb in Turkish Literature=
“Bad/evil words reflects on the speaker”.
As a result, these are Atatürk’s very important words=
“The enemy of the Turkish Nation is the enemy of the humanity”.
“Peace in the home, peace on the world”.

Even though you are watchful with your words it's very clear to see what you're implying. Anyway I have nothing against you whatsoever I just think you're real quick to judge people. I haven't jumped anyones throat sponaneously, if that would be the case ever then please accept my apology because it's obviously a very destructive thing to do. Tension has been lurking on the forum for some time now, surfaces in any political discussion and I just hate that everything has to get personal. What would the actual political realm look like if everyone were going on eachothers cases? But we're all human and right now I'm just so fed up with personal attacks that I can't keep my comments 100% clean (hence my IQ outburst ). Obviously I'm not the only one. Let's just get back to discussing politics at room temperature, I don't think anyone wanted anything else.
I know nothing of Barzani's political affairs or AKP in general apart other than there's just no reason for them to have a hidden islamistic agenda, and that's not an opinion I have because I'm islamistic because I'm obviously not, that's a general opinion over here. I would probably never vote for AKP anyway.

Please accept my appoligies too if i said something that offended you although i didn't mean to, i must admitt that im a little tense these days,and very sensetive about some issues cus Turkey has been going through a very difficult time, so my posts may have sounded harsher then i really intended to...if so, sorry.
Peace

Do you folks ever give up?ok I hate Kurds,Turks,English,Germans,French,and Americans(and anybody else in this world,even eskimoes and i dont like what they wear,think,or their political preference)will this actually change anything?I place a bomb in some of these countries mentioned,would this help this discussion?In fact I believe that this problem is about East meeting West,the fact that everyone in the West must accept people from the East to work,live,practice their religion here,our over reported dialogue in the West for Eastern Europeans to work here without prejudice could be a problem,for the westerners on the other hand we in the West are supposed to look to the East with suspicion(hope i spelled that rightfright,and a view of splinter terrorism groups,wondering if one day "I could meet a nail bomb full on in the face".Is this about Religion?if it is then it has driven a huge wedge between people,and has put into reverse what it intended.
There exists a belief that the Devil himself has created all religion as a means of hate,distrust,anger,and belligirence to be performed between us earthlings,and in the hope that humanity will destroy itself,if that is the case then what are we doing now?ripping shreds from each other because one religion(or political group)does not believe in another?We in all religions believe in faith the Lord,inner strength(in one way or another)forgivness,love,respect,peace on the world etc,
but in the East AND the West we are blowing the legs off children in one way or another,can anyone tell me what this religion is?does this religion have a special name?I think the fundamentalist argument from either side cannot work,because these opinions are driven by the media/hate and a few political people wishing their demands from both East and West.It seems the Devil is winning,and in my opinion it's nonsense that you all can find such a divide between yourselves,to actually feel hate when probably none of you have ever even met?
or am i missing the mark?

And still the petty attacks do not stop,like fish we nibble just like fish we nibble and nip

Kudos to you Leander

Thanks guys and best wishes to you too !
armegon
KeithL
catwoman
Elisa

wow, seems like panta rei lost his temper.
well done, leander, well done!

ok, irish you won.

leander's post was a CHECKMATE to many people. must be admitted. nothing to add! im off for a while now. what a release!

Having had my eyes tested at the weekend I still do not see a political agenda in the photo's! Only the one that is being raised by members of Turkish Class.

Poor leander! You appear you are in need of being taught lessons more than I expected. I won't bother to start at this time of night, but hope to do that tomorrow. So, see you tomorrow! (If not tomorrow, I will, without doubt, see you around here again)

actually i dont think panta rei can be a PKK supporter or owner, he just wanted to be a mocking bird i suppose as usual...


and i feel worse days are waiting for Turkey with those terroristic events...

we will see what happens...

Go femme we are all here for you! I dont have much time to write what ı feel but, ı feel more secure now knowing that there are people outside thinking just like me.

judging by the demonstrations the last several weeks, there are millions that think like us. General Buyukanit included!

1) religion is forbidden to kill innocent people and it is agaist racism..
2) islam does not allow to seperate the goverment
3) if u r religion, u cant support terrorist group
4) pkk is komunist group as his chairman said.. so if u religion how do u support it
5) i still cant understand what kind of people support a terrorist group????

I am just laughing, I still couldn't understand what was wrong with the video from messages. I also couldn't figure out how the conversation spread out to pkk and then to communists

Actually it was against the people who wore turban and put on make up.

and according to me, dont care what it is written on their papers...
just loot at their action..
ther would give us democracy but kill the innocent people..

they offer a peace but at the same time kill people..
so dont believein in papers..believe wjat u see in real life...

No matter how hard u try, if you did not born a turk, u can not understand the message of that video. Even the color of green represent fundamentalist islam for a turk. Color of red represent our flag, military etc. The picture he choose says that on red "that's the Turkish way of living islam", the pictures on green says "thats the way of fundamentalist and political living of islam. It is not about scarf or race. It is about using religious dogmas for raising votes! I hope now its clear for who does not understand what are we arguing here...