Let me disagree

I m not Turkish. I am not Turk. But i am interested in what is going on in Turkey, its life etc. It is great that besides language I can get such multifaceted information here. It gives mental pabulum. Because of it language is not just language anymore, but smth that finds special support and content, that gives additional motivation to study. You feel more involved into language because you start feeling the country, people, and nation.

topics are not always rainbow, though vitally important. Thinking people are able to shift the wheat from the chaff.

Just a few things to add:

- When some people leave from here I feel sorry but when I think they are leaving  because their idea was NOT strong enough to defend my sarrow goes away. And I dont feel sorry anymore.

-If the level of racism in Turkey is not endemic, you are welcome to put your opinion. But do you prefer to attack the person who says it? In the end, it is ´just an idea´.

-about the negative propaganda: well sorry but what I say is what i believe.

What is the propaganda about it?.

And I believe that ´negative propaganda´ is not your personal opinion.

It is the excuse and the pharse our politicians and the army generals have been using for every single critisisim.

Since we all hear (and have heard for so many years) that ´nooo it is JUST a negative propaganda´ after  every critical opinion, you seem  picking it up so naturally. (some people may call it natural beheviour after brain washing)

You post serve nothing but the proof that you are burrying your head into the sand as opposing to confronting the opinion itself.

First of all, I would like to say that I think Merih has some very good points.

Secondly, in response to this quote:

The bottom line is that maybe some people cannot defend their ideas, but what is more significant, I think, is that some people do not tolerate other people having different ideas then themselves. I support people who have a reason to complain that they are not respected enough when they express their views, but not allowing anybody to express their own views because they are not flattering or for whatever reason, is unacceptable.

 sense at last!

Gencturk, if I may respond to your point about the ´negative ideas about Turkey´ that you are against... let me just tell you that you are wrong thinking that this is something bad for Turkey or that it makes ´foreigners´ not like Turkey (or something along these lines). What we talk about Turkey here is not just personal dislikes, that have no justification, we are trying to discuss the reality. Most people who come to this site, are accustomed to doing that in their own countries -- what they dislike about Turkey (trust me on that) is that Turks often times cannot see critically their own country. Believe me that when ´foreigners´ come and see that Turkish people criticize their government and have reasonable arguments in it, they like Turkey MORE, because they like the freedom of speech and freedom of saying what they think. And believe me, no reasonable person would ever believe that Turkey is all wonderful and beautiful and that there is no sexism or racism in Turkey -- because tehse things are everywhere. A reasonable person would take quite a bad view of Turkey if these were all that they could find here.

About the sticky thread saying negative things about Turkey -- the point of conversations here is just so that we can share our views -- not to ´tell other people what to think´. Everybody can say what they think, and at the end we all judge for ourselves (just like Merih said, nobody will change their opinions just because somebody else said something). And believe me, everybody who comes to this site, does so because they love Turkey in the first place.

I try to read the thread from the beginning and i stopped on page 13 that i guess it will come to this point again (actually it come to this point on first page).

According to them all Turks are racist(cw mentioned this clearly), brainwashed, paranoid and close-minded . I think she is happy to start an argument like this, actually when one sees her posts on this forum, it should be clearly understood that her aim is to provoke and i agree with Merih that she got bored , in every thread she tries to scratch Turk-Kurd or Islam issue, and spoils the threads.

I think they are more paranoid than real paranoiacs. They are very uncomfortable with the muslim community and Turks in their country(in fact they want to say they are terrorists but cannot because it is forbidden and they are awfully liberal so they cannot say what they think clearly; these poor people except some exceptions. Precisely they endure in silence and got bored and try to find another way to attack like web)

There are always instigations and agitations in their community created by media. In first place media creates fear, then they supress it with liberalism and political correctness which opens a way to upgrade instigations. An avarage Brit cant say anything to this because of a fear of being called racist and facist so they got bored much. I was labelled racist here many times in fact im not racist and no relation with them , but then i understood they call every Turk or everyone like that if they dont like their thoughts. In case there is much pressure on them, there is no freedom of speech for this poor people to say what they think. They think freedom is to drink drugs, can sleep each night with different man/woman, wearing ridiculous cloths bla bla, even they dont know the meaning of freedom.

 I am not Turkish and one of the things (apart from the obvious racism) that I find infuriating in Turkey is this attitude that there is nothing in Turkey that needs to be criticised.

The racism will not get better while the Turkish population don´t accept any criticism - how will they ever think that maybe they are wrong?

Yes it is very patronizing of the Turkish to think that foreigners can´t have our own opinions and know our own mind. If the criticism is warranted then I will agree, if not then I will disagree but I don´t have to fall out with anybody.

BTW I am known as someone who criticizes lots of things when in Turkey - people are always very shocked!!! (Alwasy remember to smile when criticising!)

I am waiting to be told that if there is so much to criticise, why do I go back so often -because I love the place and the people.

I criticize my own country, my children, my parents and myself but hopefully it is positive criticism and maybe it will challenge an opinion once in a while?? People are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs but surely sometimes if these upset other people it doesn´t do any harm to challenge them occasionally.

I haven´t voiced my opinion earlier in this "debate" because I didn´t want to get into the middle of a slanging match! 

Turkish people come this site and want to help the foreigners in here. do not come here to discuss or hear "you are racist". They dont have to defend themselves against these accusations. they just quit. not only turkish people even some foreigners cannot endure that. Obiviously you do not "enlight" Turkish people with your posts rather irritate them.
So we came to the basic question: "What is your purpose?"
Actually I pointed a good way to promote your ideas in better place with target group. or will you continue the enlighten process on this site with few turkish people. some of them just found a brilliant! solution to get rid of the problem. that is "give the piece of land and get rid of them". is it progress for you? I hope not.
You can believe that what you say, that is why I reply to you. But here is not a place that these accusations or problems gonna solve. That is why Your posts serve nothing but negative propaganda.
Actually what I see in your posts most of "opinions" with few of "facts". So you complain about government or army propaganda but you are in another side of propaganda which can call briefly "foreign propaganda". I hear from you exactly what I hear from foreign sources. if it is not utter truth, your views are not original as well and they are suspected. So do not accuse people being a side of the propaganda because you are in another side of the propaganda.

Just a quick observation or point to make - racisms is not a Turkish phenomenon, it is worldwide and is endemic worldwide.  Anyone tell me that there is not an element of racism in their country then they have their head in the clouds.  But because of racisms people do not stop liking a country or stop visiting a country.  Anyway, off to Kent now, and I am not sure how Kent people see those from further north!

 Absolutely! I would never dream of saying there is any country I have ever visited that does not suffer from racism in some form or other - including my own!

 Handsom you´ve mentioned this point of view before and I have to disagree with you.  I don´t think the majority of Turkish members leave because they can´t win an argument.  It seems to me that you believe the discussions are arguments to be won rather than debates where opinions are considered.  Of course there may be those who haven´t researched as much as you but there are several who do and hold a different view to you. 

I recommended this site to a Turkish friend and he joined, initially helping with translations and culture but he became involved in a political discussion and there were some who became extremely rude rather than debate sensibly.  He decided he didn´t want to visit a site where that happens.  He hasn´t deleted himself, but he hasn´t visited the site for the last 12 months.  The rudeness and personally insulting nature of the comments made to him were the reasons for his decision not to visit anymore, not the debate itself.

As an outsider, I am interested in reading these arguments, but there comes a point when I become switched off because they become too personal and all about ´winning´.  This particular thread has been particularly off putting because of the argument (I´m not levelling this at you btw, there have been quite a few getting involved on this thread).  Of course there´s another reason too, I am learning nothing new reading this particular thread. 

Turkey will have it´s racists, like any other nation, but I don´t agree with LIR that most foreign members on the site believe Turks are racist.  Has there been a poll?  One individual cannot speak for the membership, surely.

Please don´t misunderstand me, I am interested in reading the issues you enjoy posting about but I lose interest when old ground is covered and accusations of nationalism and racism are levelled at Turkish members.  I believe most of them aren´t nationalists or racists.  I am guessing that most Turks that visit this site know full well what the day to day shortcomings of their country are and they will vote accordingly.  As for ethnic issues such as those discussed here, I don´t think the truth will ever be known, no matter how much research material is posted to support a point of view.  So, members are left with a chance to discuss/debate rather than argue and accuse. 

If people wish to leave the site, it´s a matter for them, but I don´t believe it´s because they feel their arguments are weak.

I presume you are on your way to the airport now