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meeting in İzmir!!!
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20. |
14 May 2007 Mon 08:27 pm |
Quoting LCT: Those rallies in İstanbul, Ankara, İzmir and Manisa with the concurrent rise in nationalism scare me more than anything the AKP say.
Some of those on the demo would prefer a coup than to uphold the democratic process just because they don't like who might get elected.
A strange way to claim they are defending democracy. |
I agree with you for the most part.
What's the deal with those people? Just wait for the election and vote for the party you wish to see in government. AKP was also elected democratically it's not like they are the ones who has overthrown democracy 3½ times.
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21. |
14 May 2007 Mon 08:41 pm |
Quoting azade: I agree with you for the most part.
What's the deal with those people? Just wait for the election and vote for the party you wish to see in government. AKP was also elected democratically it's not like they are the ones who has overthrown democracy 3½ times. |
I am curious why people who have such opinions can't see beyond the covers? What's your problem with people demonstrating against the current government or military threatening the government if this is clearly good for the country and preserving its democracy and secularism? Just like KeithL said somewhere, this is very specific to Turkey and it works there, so please stop comparing Turkish democracy to others. Look at it with the right context.
I'm trying to figure out what it is that you're defending. Sticking to theoretical rules of democracy or the end product of secularism? It is clear to me that you just like the current government and it's islamic agenda, otherwise you wouldn't keep arguing with these really meaningless reasons. And, if you're such a fervent defender of democracy, then you should enjoy the fact that people are expressing their opinions without fear. That's what democracy at work is all about!
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22. |
14 May 2007 Mon 08:43 pm |
Quoting azade: AKP was also elected democratically it's not like they are the ones who has overthrown democracy 3½ times. |
It's really a pity that there was no army to intervene 3.5 times before the democratic elections turned Iran into what it is now! And please, don't be so naive about politics, haven't you heard enough about corruption, lies and hidden agendas of people in power???
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23. |
14 May 2007 Mon 08:48 pm |
what is the real problem in Turkey: a threat of radical Islam or a fear of democrayc? Elizabeth Ozdalga, a sociologist from Middle East Technical University, adresses the issue in the following article:
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=110573
The established and the outsiders
by
ELISABETH ÖZDALGA
Why such an over-abundance of flags? Why so much anger and fanatical hostility in the speeches?
One cannot fail to notice the present disquieting drama being acted out in Turkey.
Imagine a stage, which for years has been occupied by a certain type of people. They occupy important posts within the state bureaucracy, represent Europeanized urban manners, share a common educational background and basic values concerning the state and the nation. They are secularized, put great trust in the sciences, particularly positivist science, and see themselves as the leading modernizers of their country. They represent an institutionally and ideologically tight group, which owes its power and prestige to the fact that they are able to claim a monopoly over what is defined as modernization and a civilized way of life. They are the Established.
Then imagine other groups entering the stage from various sides. These are people coming from the villages, smaller urban centers, and the less well-off suburbs of the big cities. They have a different lifestyle, pay more attention to indigenous cultural traditions and religious practices, dress differently (head-covering has been especially conspicuous) and represent different values. But they are not as well attuned to each other and lack the compact consensus of the already existing group.
These newcomers want to share the stage with “the old families.†They work hard with high social ambitions, and claim to be as good patriots and modernizers as the old ones. But instead of opening their ranks, freely mixing and interacting with the new elements, the old guard develops an ideology which describes the newcomers as unworthy of such integration. They are portrayed as being in all respects deficient: as ignorant, uncivilized, dishonest, reactionary (for example, aiming at a Turkey patterned on Iran). Renowned columnists in major Istanbul dailies do not even mind depicting them as vulgar and filthy. It is especially their “religious fanaticism†(a distortion of what normally would be regarded as piety) that is singled out as a characteristic disqualifying them for certain positions, especially within the military, the state bureaucracy, the universities, and now, latest, for the presidency. The newcomers are thereby in various ways being stigmatized. They represent the Outsiders.
The idea of the Established and the Outsiders is a theory used in sociological community studies. The classical example is represented by the relation between two neighboring residential districts, where those who have lived in the area for a longer time and during this period have managed to develop strong community networks, come to dominate over the late-comers. All kinds of slander, gossiping and defamation are used in order to keep the newcomers, the Outsiders, at a distance; in order to preserve the existing status and prestige of the Established. That the attached stigmas are, in fact, imagined and/or invented has been demonstrated by empirical fieldwork studies.
The concepts of the Established and the Outsiders can also be used in larger macro contexts and, as suggested here, have much to tell also about the dynamics in present day Turkish society. Seen in that perspective, the conflicts we are witnessing affect certain very sensitive and deep-going power interests. When referring to major power interests I do not primarily have economic and/or class interests in mind, but conflicts based on status group interests, which by no means are less imperative and fundamental than those based on material or economic interests. To loose a longstanding, and allegedly natural status position, and the esteem that goes with it, is like being confronted with the end of the world. It hurts and causes intense anxiety.
The secular Established in Turkey is a textbook case of a well-established status group, in this case fighting tooth and nail in order to hold on to its power positions, even to the price of sacrificing its country’s economic interests and hard-won democratic institutions. The observed tension and anxiety in those circles should be seen in the light of the fact that their power today is seriously challenged by modernization itself.
What is being described here is a tug-of-war that has been going on for many years. The reason that the conflict has reached such an acute stage right now is the fact that an “Outsider†has proved eligible to the highest position in the state hierarchy, i.e. what amounts to nothing less than the most elevated position in the value hierarchy of the Established. The challenge is enormous. It is even unthinkable!
A critical reading of the slogans resounding during the large demonstrations in Ankara, Istanbul, Manisa, and Çanakkale during the last weeks, like “secularism in jeopardy†(â€Laiklik elden gidiyorâ€), suggests that it is not the secular republic as much as the power and prestige of the secular Established itself that is under threat.
In this perspective it is especially paradoxical to notice the great role played by women in these street manifestations against the sitting AKP government. Paradoxical, because in their daily practices, women are those who should know best what it is like to be classified and treated as an Outsider.
The Established versus the Outsiders: an old guard defending its status position against what it regards as alien and threatening social groups. They are aliens - and therefore the flags, and threatening -- therefore the hostility.
08.05.2007
ELISABETH ÖZDALGA
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24. |
15 May 2007 Tue 12:49 am |
Quoting kaddersokak: Why such an over-abundance of flags? |
No need to read anymore, Elisabeth Özdalga who is one of the person uncomfortable with Turkish flag. Although she takes her salary from the Turkish Republic, she is one of the supporters of Prof.Yayla who insulted to Kemal Atatürk. See how democratic Turkish Republic is, i think Turkish Republic exaggarated democratism .I wonder what she thinks about the french(or any country) law that forbids to say there is no Armenian holocaust. i want one article from her about this subject if it is democratic or not or one article about headscarf which was forbidden by England, France, Netherlands and the Human Rights Supreme Court of Europe if it is democratic or not. I wonder what she thinks about Iraq as a sociology professor. Besides i wonder what she thinks about TESEV supported by George Soros that blamed Turkish Army about the events of Şemdinli(look at the infos below about the bombing of Umut Bookstore in Şemdinli). She is one of the fanatic supporters of Fetullah Gülen Cemaat about moderate Islam(in other words evangelist muslims, as everyone can see from the source of newspaper Zaman),a religion mixture of Christianism and Islam as a plan of US and EU who are trying to weaken Turkish army by slanders.
Bombing of Umut Bookstore in Şemdinli made by PKK;
Last minute statement come up to the 9th Criminal Office of Supreme Court of Appeals. PKK terrorist Arif Kaçım who was caught by Iran and given back to the Turkish forces said bombing of Umut Bookstore was performed by PKK terrorists code named “Cudi†and “Amedâ€. His evidence reached to the court today.
In his statement he declared the terrosists code named “Cudi†and “Amed†were given action of bombing of Umut Bookstore and he added “We will perform the bombing and it will be declared to the press that bombing was performed by soldiers of Gendarme Intelligence Headquarters of Turkish Armyâ€
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/6445120.asp?gid=180
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25. |
15 May 2007 Tue 01:14 am |
Quoting qdemir: If the republic is being defended by a certain person who gave a rose to the head of the terrorist in the past, and by another certain person who sang songs in front of the photo of the same murderer of babies last March (The same person sang in İzmir today and refused to hold the Turkish flag that had been handed by a woman.), I refuse to defend such a republic as the republic that I defend is totally unlike theirs and their interior and exterior like-minded defenders'. |
I agree with you but people are supporting the Republic there not him, it is not a rally of a party or anyone else. also i think there is no difference between him and our Prime Minister when you look at the declarations, what do you think? Do you vote for him like our PM? Can he also be a PM of Turkish Republic? huh??
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26. |
15 May 2007 Tue 02:06 am |
Quoting armegon: Quoting kaddersokak: Why such an over-abundance of flags? |
No need to read anymore, Elisabeth Özdalga who is one of the person uncomfortable with Turkish flag. Although she takes her salary from the Turkish Republic, she is one of the supporters of Prof.Yayla who insulted to Kemal Atatürk. See how democratic Turkish Republic is, i think Turkish Republic exaggarated democratism .I wonder what she thinks about the french(or any country) law that forbids to say there is no Armenian holocaust. i want one article from her about this subject if it is democratic or not or one article about headscarf which was forbidden by England, France, Netherlands and the Human Rights Supreme Court of Europe if it is democratic or not. I wonder what she thinks about Iraq as a sociology professor. Besides i wonder what she thinks about TESEV supported by George Soros that blamed Turkish Army about the events of Şemdinli(look at the infos below about the bombing of Umut Bookstore in Şemdinli). She is one of the fanatic supporters of Fetullah Gülen Cemaat about moderate Islam(in other words evangelist muslims, as everyone can see from the source of newspaper Zaman),a religion mixture of Christianism and Islam as a plan of US and EU who are trying to weaken Turkish army by slanders.
Bombing of Umut Bookstore in Şemdinli made by PKK;
Last minute statement come up to the 9th Criminal Office of Supreme Court of Appeals. PKK terrorist Arif Kaçım who was caught by Iran and given back to the Turkish forces said bombing of Umut Bookstore was performed by PKK terrorists code named “Cudi†and “Amedâ€. His evidence reached to the court today.
In his statement he declared the terrosists code named “Cudi†and “Amed†were given action of bombing of Umut Bookstore and he added “We will perform the bombing and it will be declared to the press that bombing was performed by soldiers of Gendarme Intelligence Headquarters of Turkish Armyâ€
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/6445120.asp?gid=180
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yes no need to read Prof. Ozdolga and Yayla, because we Turks know all the best I think there is also no need to have universities in Turkey because they produced critical minds which we do not need in Turkey
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27. |
15 May 2007 Tue 02:30 am |
Quoting kaddersokak:
yes no need to read Prof. Ozdolga and Yayla, because we Turks know all the best I think there is also no need to have universities in Turkey because they produced critical minds which we do not need in Turkey |
You are again bastardizing the subject, where i said universities are needless, i only criticize Elisabeth Özdalga, dont you have tolarence to the opposite thoughts as you mentioned and talking about democracy? Are you uncomfortable of these thoughts?Besides many of the professors in Türkiye think opposite of the Elisabeth Özdalga.
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29. |
15 May 2007 Tue 02:39 am |
Quoting kaddersokak: yes How happy to say I am a Turk
by the way no to EU and USA: and democracy)
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Ne güzel
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30. |
15 May 2007 Tue 09:07 am |
Quoting mltm: Quoting LCT: Those rallies in İstanbul, Ankara, İzmir and Manisa with the concurrent rise in nationalism scare me more than anything the AKP say. |
Sorry, but then you don't know anything about Turkey.
The nationalism of Atatürk is different than the nationalism that bases on fanaticsm, supremacy or racism.
I don't find it dangerous to be nationalistic in the way of Atatürk. It's the love for the republic, country and the people, and it bases on unity of all the people who loves their country.
The nationalistic mentality who killed Hrant Dink and the one that rallied in the last few weeks are not the same.
Globalism is not dangerous but nationalism is dangerous?? Globalism has become to serve some big countries over the other countries, it has become to serve the imperialism, what we lack with this government is not just the secularism but also the real kemalist nationalism. We don't want to make sacrifice from our nation's and country's values.
If those rallies scare somebodies, let them scare. |
This also scares me.
I raise a concern about something and immediately someone condemns me.
"It is obvious that you know nothing about Turkey"
said MLTM
In your attempt to patronzie me you show your own ignorance.
1. How can you have any idea about my understanding of Turkey?
2.What gives you the right to think that your understanding of Turkey is any better or more correct than mine?
I merely raised a concern.
I said "concurrent" rise of nationalism.
I do see a distinction between different types of nationalism.
The nationalism of the oppressed and the nationalism of the opressor.
The problem with the nationalism that manifests itself on the rallies in question is that they are not opressed in that way and there is no clear separation between the nationalism on the rallies and any other nationalism
Back in the early 1920s when the republic was formed the need for a strong national identity in order to cement a bulwark against the threat of imperialism was very real and wholly justified. However this is no longer the early 1920s and those conditions have long since gone.
It seems to me that the doctrine of nationalism has remained like a stuck clock.
Those on the rally focus solely on the appariton of a threat to laicism.
Before you condemn me as some defender of the AKP.
Why are those people on the rallies not attacking the AKP on questions of poverty, education and the War in Iraq?
I'll tell you...
Because the majority of those behind it are from the lower and upper middle classes and therefore do not share those concerns. They have the same position on those issues as the AKP. They are relatively comfortable and can so afford to worry about the ghost of laicism. It is the only thing they can cling to, to use as a tool to voice their fears.
The problem is that the nationalism of those on the rally and the nationalism of others is not separate. It is rather a spectrum of opinions.
I'm against anything people do in the name of nationalism.
Because it undermines us human beings. It makes you different from me and then it's them and they are not us... etc..
They were saying on the rallies.. No left.. No right let's come together a third way....
That has a very scary precedence..
Yours concerned...
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