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AMERICAN NATIVES
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| 10. |
25 May 2007 Fri 03:28 pm |
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I love that Korshad said all humans were related, only difference was timming. I believe this. I wish more people would study other cultures, and they would see so many similarities. This is why I love travel, cultures, and languages. It shows you that in some way, no matter how small, there are similarties that connect us.
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| 11. |
25 May 2007 Fri 03:35 pm |
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Quoting lovebug: I love that Korshad said all humans were related, only difference was timming. I believe this. I wish more people would study other cultures, and they would see so many similarities. This is why I love travel, cultures, and languages. It shows you that in some way, no matter how small, there are similarties that connect us. |
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| 12. |
25 May 2007 Fri 03:48 pm |
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Quoting yilgun-7:
In my opinion, the AMERICAN NATIVES and AMERICAN INDIANS are very different things according to a scientific study.
In my opinion, American Indian is a wrong concept or a phenomenon.
It is called "AMERICAN NATIVES".
This is a true definition.
And, according to some Historians, American Natives were Turks. |
Respect !
Since I am not into genetics or similar sciences, I can't say anything about it.
I also agree that the term "Indians" is a misunderstanding in your concept, but all world calls them like this. Thanks to Colombus. Some people also say "Red skins". PS: I am not trying to be racist here.
But how can we distinguish them. Could you tell us some details on the discrimination. I mean, if they are not the people that we know as "Indians", then who are they ?
I mentioned about some possibilities above in the largeness of my knowledge. Is there a chance that any of them might be true ?
Addition: Who are Turks ?
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| 13. |
25 May 2007 Fri 04:54 pm |
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Quote:
1-Some motifs of American Natives'(Indians) rugs are similar to Turkic ones. This is the main idea for the relationship.
Don't remember much but they say that the meaning of those motifs are similar to Turkic ones. |
Many Navajo rug designs resemble Turkish designs because they are patterned after them.
In the late 19th century, American trading post operators wanted to encourage the Navajo women to make better rugs so they brought Turkish rugs to the reservations so the techniques could be copied.
Rugmaking is not an original Navajo (or other Indian) craft. In the old days, they made some skin rugs from rabbits and other small animals but they didn't have wool until the Spanish introduced sheep to America.
By the way, American Indians generally call themselves Indians or by their tribal name (Blackfoot, Sioux, Nez Perce etc.). 'Native American' is mostly used by whites; although a few Indians use it, most don't.
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| 14. |
25 May 2007 Fri 05:56 pm |
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Quoting Peace: No, Native American Indians are not Turks and will proudly tell you so.lol!! |
Peace Peace 
You cannot be sure of that. First of all one should scrutinize and compare of the religions and the languages of Native Americans and Turkic people scientifically, these are the only things that can show affinity between these cultures and addition to them DNA analysis. I heard about an scientific research between DNA’s of Native Americans and Middle Siberia include the Turkic-speaking Tuvans, as well as the Mongolic-speaking Buryats. And it says it has shown that American Natives have affinity to the Middle Siberian people . These people from Middle Siberia belong to Altaic linguistic family same as Turkic people. And scientist Ethel Steawert who had researched the origin of Native Americans for 40 years, confirms this.
And one should also add that the religion and culture of Native Americans are similar to the ancient Turanian people.
As a result we cant say surely that they are Turkic people but we are sure that American Natives have similarities to the Turkic people in religion and culture.
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| 15. |
25 May 2007 Fri 06:13 pm |
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If you compare DNA, we all come from Africa, originally...
All human beings are 99.99% the same based on DNA.
I think that with any scientific data, we can find the conclusion that we want to find.
I don't see it personally, the definitive link.
I think the most imporatnt part of the argument is to determine a time frame. If you are willing to go back far enough in time, than of course there is a link. But the questions is, is there a modern link?
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| 16. |
25 May 2007 Fri 06:17 pm |
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No i do not say only DNA, DNA maybe gives only clue, i also say religions, languages and culture should be compared scientifically.
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| 17. |
25 May 2007 Fri 06:28 pm |
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I don't know the religions of the ancient turkic tribes. The religions of the American Indian Tribes of North America all worship the earth. The sun, the wind, the rain, animals. But I think we can find these basic concepts in all ancient religions. Its all basically paginsim.
I do have a question though. I know several turks that really want this link between the two peoples to be true. I dont understand this part of it, on why they want this to be true. It seems to be some kind of romantic notion that they are the same peoples...
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| 18. |
25 May 2007 Fri 06:38 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: I don't know the religions of the ancient turkic tribes. The religions of the American Indian Tribes of North America all worship the earth. The sun, the wind, the rain, animals. But I think we can find these basic concepts in all ancient religions. Its all basically paginsim.
I do have a question though. I know several turks that really want this link between the two peoples to be true. I dont understand this part of it, on why they want this to be true. It seems to be some kind of romantic notion that they are the same peoples... |
Same as ancient Turanian people...I also dont know why Turks really want this link, maybe ill answer it with a Turkish motto "Belki kan çekiyordur"
let me quote a part of an article about the comparison of religions between ancient Turkic people and Native American...
Shamanism of Central Asia and North America
The ancestors of the Native Peoples of Americas are known to have migrated from Central Asia and Siberia to their new homelands in the Americas. Like the ancestors of Turks, they also have shamanistic beliefs. This is another area in which one can search for the representations of shamanistic sky, moon and sun gods. Since the Native peoples of the Americas have migrated from Asia to these continents, it is likely that we may find representations of these astral deities being the same or similar to those found in Central Asia. In searching their culture, we find, for example, the following shamanistic representations:
a) An Altaic shaman's map of his visionary journey to the god "Ulgen" is shown in a figure by Joseph Campbell, [JC, p.158, Fig. 276]. In this figure, the shaman's journey starts from his tent and goes via a world (cosmic) tree, then ascends toward the god Ulgen which is shown at the very top of the ascending path. The god Ulgen is represented in the form of a man radiating light all over like the sun.
b) In another figure, "A Chukchi map of the heavenly ways" is shown by Joseph Campbell, [JC, p.158, Fig. 277]. In this map, a sun, a crescent moon, Pole star together with other stars and the Milkyway are illustrated.
c) In the words of Joseph Campbell, we have: 'a colorful yarn painting of the shamanisic visionary journey is given as a New World counterpart to that of the Central Asian Altaic shaman', [JC, p. 159, Fig. 280]. This painting which belongs to the Shamans of the Huichol Indian tribe of Nayarit in western Mexico shows a crescent and a five pointed white star which is attached to one tip of the crescent. There are four wavy rays emanating from the star and also four wavy rays to the left of the star are the "fiery curtain of solar rays through which the shaman had to pass". The path of the shaman's ascent is indicated by footsteps shown on a crescent. This painting is by Ramon Medina.
According to the description given by Joseph Campbell: "this painting by Ramon Medina is of a journey inspired by a supernatural summons to bring back to earth, in the form of a rock crystal, the soul of an ancestral shaman wishing to return. The star is the rock crystal to be found. This visionary journey of a shaman from Mexico obviously resembles that of the shaman from Central Asia (276), even to the detail of the tree, which appears in the Altaic map at the start of the shaman's flight into space, and here in the Huichol painting at the center of the composition."
d) In the words of Mircea Eliade, we have: "The designs ornamenting the skin of the drums are characteristic of all the Tatar tribes and Lapps. Among the designs, are always the most important symbols, as, for example the World Tree, the sun and moon, the rainbow and others. In short, the drums constitute a microcosm: a boundary line separates sky from the earth, and in some places, earth from the underworld", [ME, p. 172].
e) To support this description of a shaman's drum, we have a picture of Lapp drumhead from northern Sweden, c. 1800, [JC, p.176, Fig. 306]. The drum's skin is divided into three segments by two horizontal lines. It is described by Joseph Campbell: "In the Upper World: the sun and moon (or, perhaps the sun setting and rising) are seen along with heavenly beings and their tent. In the middle (left to right): the Mistress of the Beasts sends animals to be hunted; a hunter shoots a reindeer; and a shaman, riding upward in a sleigh drawn by a reindeer, is followed by a dog. In the Lower world: three goddesses suggesting the Norns are pictured."
f) Again we have from Joseph Campbell's book the picture of the Yakut (Karagasy) shaman Tulayev, of Irkutsk, wearing his reindeer-leather swan costume. "On his cap of green cloth is sewn a wolf's muzzle with the moon above and stars on each side. ....", [JC, p. 177, Fig. 307].
g) Four buckskin tipi models, collected from the Cheyenne (Native Peoples) in 1904, are shown by N. Bancroft-Hunt and W. Forman [NBHWF, p. 106-107]. These tipi models show the types of sacred images applied to Medicine tipis. One of them, entitled as "Shining Bell's tipi" bears the images of Sun, Moon and Star and the sacred Eagle that carried prayers from Earth to the Sky, [NBHWF, p. 107].
On this tipi, the sacred images of Sun, Moon and a star are vertically arranged on the side of the tipi. Shown are a four- pointed star at the top, a crescent moon in the middle and a sun disk at the bottom. In this illustration of the shamanistic beliefs of astral gods by Cheyenne Indians, we again observe the crescent and star motif.
h) In a book entitled, "Myths of the World Gods of the Maya, Aztecs, and Incas" by Timothy R. Roberts, MetroBooks, 1996, [TRR, p. 56], there is shown an Aztec headdress, which is said to be the only surviving example of Aztec feather work and is made of hundreds of quetzal feathers, is adorned with many golden or gold colored crescents and sun disks. This headdress is presently in the Museum fuer Voelkerhunde, Vienna, Austria. In the same book, twelve major Aztec gods are depicted by pictures [TRR, p. 58-59], one of which (#6) has a sun symbol where between the rays showing the four directions, there the three-pointed sun rays between four directions. Similarly, on the Aztec god represented in this (#7), there is the eight-pointed star symbol. So, it is seen that these sun, crescent and eight-pointed star symbols are all associated with Shamanic religious concepts.
i) In the same book by Timothy R. Roberts, [TRR, p. 90], there is the picture which depicts "Coya Mama, the wife of Manco Capac, the last Inca ruler". In this picture, Coya Mama is holding a mirror reflecting the sun and the mirror represents her husband as the descendent of the sun. This is a Shamanistic concept. Additionally, Coya Mama has a white robe over her shoulder. On the right shoulder, there is a "an eight-pointed star embraced by a crescent symbol.
In all of these examples of shamanic beliefs, both in Altaic Shamanism and the Shamanism of North America, the sacred representation of sky, moon, sun, star or Venus are illustrated on shaman's maps, tipis, drums and costumes. The crescent and star motif seems to be a prominent motif among the sacred representations. Additionally, in all of these cases, the North American Shamanism and the Altaic shamanism seems to point to a common origin in Central Asia. Since the ancestors of the Native Peoples of Americas have migrated from Central Asia and Siberia to the Americas, finding this common origin among them is quite natural and expected.
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| 19. |
25 May 2007 Fri 07:55 pm |
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Quoting armegon: No i do not say only DNA, DNA maybe gives only clue, i also say religions, languages and culture should be compared scientifically. |
I agree. But I want to share some of my opinions about them.
Thanks DaveT pointing out the secret behind the motifs on rugs.
I believe that there are many COINCIDENCES and/or there even may be slight contacts between cultures resulting some similarities in religion, culture and language.
Turks were roaming tribes, MOSTLY, in the known history.
And American Natives were also roaming tribes, depending on season, water, food etc same as Turks. As far as I know there is only one known real-settlement in America, somewhere close to Mexico, except South American cultures of course.
The Horse is/was a very important thing in both societies' life. Same as archery, and using bow while riding a horse for hunting or fighting. Turks were famous about their riding and archery as American Natives.
Naming a boy ceremony has similarities between both cultures. A boy should prove his "manship" before getting a real name. Well, this is also common in many cultures.
Since both were roaming cultures, it is normal(IMHO) to develop a similar life style and culture.
It can be normal to have similar gods to worship, since those things (air,weather,sun,stars,water,wind,earth) are important in roaming tribes' life. They roamed because of those things that they could not change or affect powers of nature. So it is normal to have them as gods to worship. Is there any god name similarity ?
About South American tribes/cultures. They set up many big cities and didn't roam as Turks. Their culture is closer to Ancient Egypt more than Turks. They built pyramids, they prepared star-charts, they calculated sun's, stars' position etc same as Egyptians and their hieroglyphs are closer to Egyptian hieroglyphs than any other alphabet on the Earth. I don't know if they had shared a common symbol among those hieroglyphs. But their number-system was based on 20 not like Egyptians. Which is very important in human-life, maybe more than alphabet (IMHO).
I read Armegon's quote. Similarities looks interesting but there are also some people, as you know, trying to set up a link between extraterrestrials and some cultures such as Maya, Aztec, Egyptian, Easter Island, India, Cambodia etc, on Earth. They also have their own evidences.
There are many similar myths and legends around the world. Most common one is the Deluge(flood), I think. Almost every ancient culture have it. Then the legend of "the white man from the sea"; maybe Noah. South Americans say that the sun had risen from west 4 times in the history. There are some similarities between Mesopotamian cultures and South American's.
There are some Turanism extremists, who are trying to convert/make everybody on the Earth to a Turk. If you'd ask them even the people living on Turks and Caicos Islands are pure Turk.
If you'd ask me I will be proud to be called as an American Native or any other culture around the world. I am proud of being a Turk too, of course.
But I don't prefer them to call theirselves Turks(by force or result of a made-up history).
History is a very important thing in all societies, but you know, it is so easy to fake truths as it is done in every country as well as in Turkey.
I saw that nobody has said anything on my question.
Why we are trying to call Native Americans as Turks ?
Why we are not trying to call Turks as Native Americans ?
Who are Turks ?
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| 20. |
25 May 2007 Fri 07:57 pm |
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I was watching Dancing with Wolves with a Turk, who asked me what language the "Indians" were speaking. I told him it was a native language and why did he ask. He said because they were speaking an old Turkish that he could understand.
He said they were Turks.
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