Imagine someone bad, very very bad, with no heart and brain. And assume that this person made a big, very very big, mistake, and comitted a severe, very very severe, sin. Assume he killed a human or many humans or invaded a woman or committed a genocide. Still assume he is punished in a prison as much as he deserved, and afterwards felt guilty, deeply regreted for what he did, and has suffered a great deal, felt twinge of conscience, and begged in order to be forgiven and asked people for mercy. Assume you are one of his victims or the only victim.

The questions are, would you forgive him? How would you act toward him? How would you behave him? What would you think about him? Would you detest him? Would you keep being angry with him?

Hmm, that's a hard one to answer. I believe in capital punishment, but I also know how to forgive. Are we talking about the devil here?

Thank you, teaschip. He had no right to do the "badness" in question to person(s). This is so obvious! But do you have right for capital punishment?

And yes, we are talking about, even, the devil of the devil here.

I don't believe in capital punishment- but I would struggle much with forgiveness. It is natural to feel deep hate and pain when a crime is committed against you, but hate is a bond. A way not to let go and move on with your life. Forgiveness, I believe, is the only true answer.

Easy to say, but I think much harder to live by...

Dear teaschip,

Actually it is me who am sorry. The tone of my reply must have given you a wrong impression. (It is not that I didn't like your response). Again, I thank you for expressing your opinion.

I do understand your reasonings, probably I, too, would think in the same way if I were in place of you. It is very hard to give an reasonable and commomsensical answer about any of the cases we mentioned; so I can't say anything unless "a cold blooded killer took the life of" my "child or family member". Would I forgive the killer? I (would) tend to forgive them; it is so easy, though, to make such remarks- I know this. But did you watch the movie "A Clockwork Orange" by Kubrick? There is Alex there who invades wife of a writer and make him disabled just for fun. If you were the writer, would you forgive Alex? See, he forgives Alex, despite all. Even helps him afterwards.

Suppose, I killed your son or invaded you sexually. Still suppose that I am punished enough, being in prison for my crime. Suppose I was cured and became a very good person, suffering enough, feeling pain enough, feeling twinge of conscience enough, regretting enough. And suppose that I beg you to forgive me. What would you do to or think about me? Would you forgive me?

I have seen victims forgive a sexual perpetrator before. Sometimes in a healthy way, sometimes not. I am a therapist and work with these sorts of cases. There is a whole method of how to admit what you did and not ask forgiveness. If you ask for forgiveness from a victim it is unfair, again you want something from them for yourself. Maybe they are not ready to forgive you yet. Forgiveness/being forgiven is a gift, not something one deserves. If they are not ready, then you have victimized them again. You said a 'twinge of conscience'...I think it takes a bit more than that. Your question is odd. If you really have this problem you need professional help, not a Turkish language forum. Maybe you are just asking a question just to ask (I hope). If I personally would forgive someone? I don't know if I could ever forgive someone.

Pagliaccio,
Judging from the last days of posts from you, I think Badiadancer is right....if you need to talk about something, this is not the proper forum. I think this, along with several other of your posts are just poor taste. What could you possibly have to gain accept self indulgence for either a percieved or true wrong doing on your part?

badiabdancer and Elisabeth,

Thank you both. I understand you well. You say forgiveness is a gift that someone can give, not something that one deserves (which I do agree with you here). I didn't mean I have deserved forgiveness. I want to ask and find out what will be my situation? Will I remain the same person, namely an animal, a bastard, an asshole, a pervert, and a disgust creature for people forever? Will I carry, for example, the label "PERVERT" or "ANIMAL" on my forehead forever? Will and should I suffer forever for my sin? Even if I got my head screwed on right, vowed not to commit the same sin again, became REALLY good person and so on, still will I be regarded as a "PERVERT" or a "BASTARD" by people forever?

Do you want to tell us what crime you exactely committed? I think a better explanation from you is necessary in order for us to provide feedback.

Well, I can only say that in the position of your "victim" I would find it hard to forgive something that you kept publicly posting on an open forum. If you expect someone to forgive you, you need to give them space and time ALONE to forgive

I am not ready, at least for today, to tell what my sin, crime, badness(whatever you like to call it) is. But I do really want to tell everyone what my crime/sin is.

I do think of myself, my own problem, my crime, my sin, my mistake, Aenigma.

I don't try to make myself forgive anymore. I gave up that. I just want to talk people about my crime/sin and dfind out their approaches and opinions about such crimes and sins, (and not only through public forums, don't worry.) This route makes me feel a little bit better.

I'm still trying to figure out what crime or sin you committed...

Let's say, teaschip, I did sexually invade a woman.

She did not give you consent? In other words, you raped her?

Yes, a kind of...

Well I don't think there is a "kind of" you either did or you didn't. If you did committ this crime, did you serve time?

Serving time would be the easiest punishment, I think. Inside me are full of prisons, gallowses, executioners... Every day I am in the prisons, every day I get hung, every day my head gets cut... No, I didn't serve time. Let's say I served time. Would you forgive me afterwards?

Well, if you did it to me one of us wouldn't be here. You or me would either be dead. Since your alive, you need to go see a therapist and do some heavy repenting. Your focus shouldn't be on getting forgiveness from the victim, which most likely won't happen. But you need to see a professional who can try to help you. You need to help yourself instead of writing these posts. If you have an ounce of respect left for yourself, go talk to a professional. If not, I'm afraid you may likely do it again..

Even if he does get help he is likely to do it again, that is what the statistics say. In the United States they have something called "Sex Offense specific therapy" you can sign yourself up. Maybe there is something similar in Turkey. I tell you this for your victim and potential victims. Shame is something that causes people to re-offend, you have loads of it based on your posts. You are not safe if you know you raped someone and you answer "sort of". Consent is a tricky issue but you know in your heart whether what happened was ok or not, and apparently you know it was not. Iyi sanslar.

teaschip - thank you so much for your opinions and advices. I did appreciate them.

I can't tell you anything about it in public dear old friend, but check your PM box.

I really do think you should give yourself 'a break' and stop torturing yourself...time heals all wounds - I believe this to be true. Learn to like yourself and you may be surprised at the forgiveness you eventually receive - the more you 'push' for forgiveness the further away you will be from receiving it

I know people unfortunatly in both situations. I think it depends on who that person is to you (the rapist). For e.g. If it was a husband, a son, a brother. It may be easier to forgive for some people.
Or if the victim was related to that person or they knew them well then it might be harder to forgive you for hurting someone close to them.
Or it could be in general, where the person did not know either of you.

In my opinion as I know people that have been in both situations I have to say to watch it ruin the victim's life as it did, I don't have any thoughts or time for such a person who could do that to a person and the people around them.
As for saying if I would like for them to either be sentenced for capital punishment or the rest of there life in jail. Well I wouldn't be able to decide without really thinking about it because in one way I don't believe that a person should be responsible for sentencing someone to death but on the other hand whats the point in spending taxes on someone who is just going to get the treatment in the jails they get these days and die in there anyway.