I hate a belly dance

Oh Femme, then you shouldn't do one!!!

it is a very primitive dance!

It's not my cup of tea either Femme, but I think it has a lot of history. As a part of culture I think it has meaning but at those cheesey dinner theaters it is harder to see it as art.

sorry for inconvenience...its about my touch pad...

There was an Arabian night show in America that I watched twice and I loved it. It was fantastic. It had belly dancing in it (though only a little) but it looked like "art" and "actual dancing" not the sleazy type.
I do feel sorry for the horses though. Though I have also been backstage and seen how they are taken care of and they was taken care of very well.

You guys are really uneducated about bellydance. some of the Turkish dancers I saw in Istanbul were pretty sleazy, except Birgul. I can see where you might draw a parallel if you see some of them to striptease. I have studied in Egypt, where the best Oriental dancers are and a little in Turkey, I take this dance very seriously. There are morons who call themselves bellydancer dance like a hoochie mama and call it bellydance.Yeah, that's not Oriental dance. Bellydancing IS NOT STRIPTEASE in the U.S. Oriental dancers are usually women of good moral character and education who also study the dance. Strippers are usually very young girls, who do it for the money.

The belly dancing I have seen in Turkey was mind boggling! I could not stop watching, I was amazed at the womans agility and strength, and the gracefulness and beauty with stomach muscles to die for. Nothing sleezy about what I saw. Maybe the ones who don't like it are a little jealous and insecure?

yeah i could do it but i dont have that kind of body :-S

Belly dance is not an erotic activity.

It's very hard to make belly dance figures.
Try to shake your body or belly more than 10 secs to understand what i mean. You may even hurt yourself
A belly dancer can give nearly half a kilgram during her 10 minutes dance.

In older times it was impossible to see the body of belly dancer. She (or he) was wearing a cloth that hides her (his) body. Their clothes was to conservative. But today many of the belly dancers (especially in turkey) tries to attract people with their body not with their dances.
And especially in egypt there are man bely dancers.
There is a few man belly dancer in turkey too. (most of them seems very faminen)

The term Belly Dance was it seems, invented by the French, who called it La danse du ventre. In Egypt is was called Raqs Sharqi or Baladi dance. It can or can not be art...then what is Art?

Traditionally "good girls" did not do it in public. In fact in most Middle Eastern societies it is tantamount to being a prostitute or very close to it.

That in fact was how classic ballet was looked at in the early part of the 20th century. The famous Pavlova's husband would not marry her because she was "a ballerina" Later when he went bankrupt and she went on a world tour to repair his finances, he wanted to marry her. She did marry him, but told him not to tell anyone as it would ruin her reputation.

Now there is some good information! I have videos on youtube you may or may not like. Egyptian style and Turkish style. search Badia in you are interested. I agree whoever said "bellydance is not an erotic activity" THANK YOU! You don't have to be skinny to do it, like they are in Turkey. In fact in Egypt they tend to be a little larger, with ample hips and buttocks.

Some say there is a relationship between "Belly Dance" Raqs Sharqi, or whatever you want to call it, and the Polynesian dances. In particular those of Hawaii and Tahiti.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLXa6AaGIH0&mode=related&search=

Movements are similar...

i think it is enough to discuss this topic , it turned the opposite direction

Yes...I've got bad lighting! like 10 people have commented on that...especially the ones done in my living room. I really am a professional dancer but have 0 computer skills so getting any good video onto my computer has not been done. There is a stage show I was in posted by another user, but the lighting there is too harsh. Yes, ballet did have an influence on Raks Sharqi, especially in Egypt. Folk dances + ballet + early movie Divas + people trying to make money from tourists + dancers = early Egyptian Raqs Sharqi. Bellydance is again taken from that. Many types...many styles.

"as you said alameda Belly Dance called Raqs Sharqi or Baladi dance, but in In Egypt men are not dancing belly dance because men dance is not any attraction but particularly for women contents of the attraction, there are dances for men but not bely dance, perhaps I am wrong, Im merely bystanders not an expert of belly dance

Elham, At different times in many cultures from Japan to England women did not appear on stage. Women's roles were done by males.

You know Fem.....I wasn't around in the beginning so I can't tell you....I imagine it had it's ups and downs...I've heard it has healthful benefits, in particular an increase of strength and flexibility in various parts of the body.

As for the relationship between Ballet and the other, it is the fact that women doing any type of performance in just about any part of the world was outside of normal society until recently.

As for men dying of lust, I don't know anything about that. It seems more women have been dying because of men's lust. I think that's why it was prohibited for women to perform in front of them....doing anything.

"wow! how amazing you are! oh, and how clever! thank you for educating us on ballet and its history!
belly dance contra ballet?
"ok, ballet at the beginning wasnt smth widely accepted, and?
how about belly dance? was it accepted in the beginning and then it wasnt? or vice versa? or whatever?
how come ballet have anything to do with stupid belly dance that makes all the men die out of lust?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6autbeh_tUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhN3bWlhQKc
These are videos of Tito. Tito is amazing and masculine in his dance, and one of my female friends from my dance troupe said when she watched his video, "now I know how men feel when they look at us!" meaning she thinks he is sexy.
Bellydance has it's roots in folk dances of Egypt and mixes in other north African dances plus middle eastern dances...all the way up to Turkey and Iran. In Egypt the folk moves are done by everyone...just NOT on stage! Women dance together with other women at family parties. A lot of the folk moves are done with the hips in Egypt, same with Algeria and Morocco..countries that I know some folk dance from. AND ONE dance in Turkey I saw a man do a great vibration shimmy while doing Kasik...it is in my favorites on youtube...but I can't remember who he was now.

Thanks for the links, the dances are fantastic! I love them. I wish they showed some more body though, not necessarily being clothed head to toe... Still fantastic! Why isn't male belly-dancing more popular!??? Are there male belly dancers in other countries as well?

yup, there are definitely male bellydancers here in australia.

some of them actually put the female bellydancers to shame...they are so good!

here are just some of them...
jamil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c29HV9aFCaM

ferdi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0wVGFWQCPs

shiva:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR1ZATJt38o

Here are some related dance forms....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvd-MALA7tw&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ItUOuGp38

CANLI SAID: Belly dancing not just showing bodies movments,its how you move your body over the music so if anyone lower the music,you can almost feel it from the dancer movments and steps.
And THAT is an art,not anyone capable of.
And that is why you would find Egyptian belly dance is different than Lebanon's belly dance,different than Turkish belly dance,and so on Some you would feel they are doing some exercises not dancing,and some are really good.

YES YES YES! Perfectly said Canli. I fall asleep watching the "look at all the weird things my body can do" dancers. Expression is so important. Happy and playful are the expressions I like to see in a belly dancer. Like Lucy, a Beledi style dancer. My question is "How do you NOT smile when you hear the music!" I had to try not to smile when I was mocking the Turkish bellydancers in my videos.(Asena being the worst in expression in my opinion... 'bored super-model trying to dance')The Passion for the music!!! Expressing the music through the dance. Dancing is fun, if it isn't fun...if you are not in love with the music don't do it!

Coitus interruptus! (Wake up from your fantasies)

There is a family of simple rhythms called Turk aksagi. Those of us who were raised in this culture and all the others who have developed a taste for it respond to this "Turk aksagi" almost instinctively by moving their bodies to its magical rhythm. Females I spoke with would say it is something that they just can't control. Once the rhythm begins they rush to populate the stage and whether it be with men with other females or all alone, they start swaying their hips in belly dance fashion. As seen belly dance is largely a cultural thing for those people.

Truth be told there are all kinds of people in any society. Some of those people are perverts, some of them are extra horny and it is not uncommon to find people with other such problems yet I still believe a great majority of people in any society are more less straight when it comes to sexuality. After all, common people want order, peace and prosperity and any corrupt personalities are just the flaws in the functioning of society. That being said some of us constantly complain of pervert males who always try to captivate women, strip them off their freedoms etc. This is obviously an obsessive way of thinking.

Going back to our main subject; just like many other misconceptions, the notion that bellydance causes women to become submissive along with the cliché depicting muslim males in their harems enjoying the erotic dances of their wives is nothing more than a Western fantasy which is way too shallow to hold any seed of truth in it. We should actually be looking to find the traces of a Western voyeurism in this perspective. After all, complete operas telling the story of a young and handsome European penetrating into the harem and kidnapping the sultan's favourite courtisan were written by those same Europeans.
You might think that would be a far fetched idea but think for a second how different the Western and Turkish connotations of the phrase "Turkish Bath" are. In Turkey hamam is very much like a spa. In other countries it also means "a brothel". I have never heard of sex parties being organized in Turkish hamams here but the Western mind is adept in fantacizing hot "Turkish Delights" doing their "Belly Dance" service in a different manner.

We know those fairy tales and Arabian nights. Not long ago an Arab was nothing more than a Turk even Greeks were regarded as Turks and vice versa. They still think Muslim describes all Middle Eastern people. Browse songs from the 50's with themes touching Turks, Arabs and muslims and you will see it for yourselves. You will be surprized at how shallow their perspective was then.

A German friend of mine takes belly dance costumes for his wife whenever he comes to Turkey. He says, his wife orders those costumes because she believes belly dance is both very enjoyable and a healthy exercise too. Obviously he likes watching his wife exclusively and who doesn't?

Women don't become submissive when they do this dance. There is an Arabic phrase describing the female sex as "cins-i latif" meaning the beautiful sex. If you have the right hormones, you would feel horny just by seeing a woman walk in the street. It is in our nature to get attracted to the other sex. If you are unable to let the whole thing flow in its nature course maybe time has come for you to dismiss the monk in your minds.

Vineyards... so let's see - everything from the "East" makes sense, is nice and pure... and everything in the "West" is the source of evil in the "East". Is that your basic point of view? I see this and other stereotypic messages in many of your posts.
Is there a slight possibility that the person who makes a contrary statement may have a point? Being the intelligent man you are I would expect that you can see that and add it to the equation...

Badiadancer, there is another aspect of dance that has not been touched on in this discussion. That type is the one where the dancer is entranced and the dance is a vehicle for transformation to another state of being. Although now Flamenco is now seen as a spectator art, real Flamenco was/is used as a cathartic to work through emotions or spiritual states. If one had a pain, they would sing or dance through the pain. The audience is irrelevant, they are only allowed to watch. Even then, they tend to pollute the experience with the distraction of their presence.

Dances that I know of that involve a trance state are the dervishes and the Zaar dance of Egypt if I am not mistaken. The zaar is a hair swinging trance dance, looks similar to the Saudi's Khaleegy. Doooom da Dooom di Dooom Da Doom di...that is how it goes. CANLI...help please!

i hate stupid belly-jelly dance!
stupid people dance for stupid people!

"i hate stupid belly-jelly dance!
stupid people dance for stupid people!"

It does take a certain type of keen intelligence to use 1 word 3 times in 2 sentences... Some people have natural grace and timing with the music. Some do not. Those that can... dance, those that can't... say hateful things. Ok, now you aren't uneducated about bellydance, you must undertand it is taken from another culture, takes YEARS of training to learn but you still hate it...ok no problem.

Moderators, why don't you warn this insolent, complex- driven person?

Why are you writing here femme? Turkey can't be your favourite country. From my perspective majority of women in Turkey are light years ahead of you in their mentalities. They don't go to Kazakh sites and insult Kazakh women like you do.

And of course, you regard them as breeding machines. The only reason left for you to write here is to provoke them.

Femme I am 40 years old and I will probably die sooner than having grown up based on your timetable.

You said you are just trying to provoke me and not the others and you have a couple of words for turkish women proving how mature you are.

The tone in my messages to you is sadly affected by your own personality.

Femme...I have been nice but you are really NOT nice. Yeah, I don't do striptease. Anyone that combines the two doesn't respect themselves OR the dance and gives all classy real bellydancers a bad name. Funny someone mentioned mental health meds for you. I have my Masters degree in psychology and work at a mental health center...if you really want to compare intelligences. Could it be that someone could be pretty, talented AND smart? Yes...it is possible. If you are going to bash me on something you might want to pick something else. I have reported Femme to admin. before for bashing Canli, what she is doing now is not as bad as last time. and whoever suggested medications...FYI...there is no medication for "Jerk Disorder NOS"... unfortunately.

ugh i didnt read all the posts on this one-but have to say that bellydance is the most impressive dance i know..
I have been told that the first proffesional bellydancer(in turkey)-WAS A MAN:o) and he was the great grandfather(or something) of a good friend of mine.

Well i havent seen a man do it yet,but when a woman really knows how-my jaw is dropping :O) What a body control.

yes, agree to disagree. If anyone thinks MY dancing is overly sexual...then they have some serious issues! Maybe they don't get out much?

Thanks Femme...you were not argumentative and made a good point. I understand how that might look like porno to you.

I don't know what kind of a super oriental setting some of us live in but I can assure you we have no shortage of entertainment in Istanbul. If you ever drove through Bosphorus Bridge at 3AM after a Friday night, you probably noticed a rush-hour like traffic involving thousands of cars. That traffic is caused by those returning from night clubs, bars and discos. Belly dance is primarily for tourists and old fashioned people. This situation is more or less the same in Izmir, Antalya or any other big city in Turkey.

I don't know what Eastern culture you are talking about. Is the image in your minds about Turkey is that of a desert and a bunch of camels either of which is not present in this country ?

There seems to be nothing wrong with this childish accusation of catwoman but my message was deleted on account that I wrongfully tried to stop her majesty's regular flaming of Turkish society.

Yes, we are a bunch of pimps here. We are such an evil society we are constantly after sacred female flesh. By the way we never kill time instead we kill one another as part of our culture.

As for you, if you so irresponsibly neglect and ignore the requirements emerging from running a public forum (which has become a political one for all intents and purposes). If you let people harass one another because of their religion, culture, ethnicity and racial roots so recklessly, I am afraid you will have to face some legal consequences that will :

" (3) İçerik veya yer sağlayıcısının yurt dışında bulunması halinde veya içerik veya yer sağlayıcısı yurt içinde bulunsa dahi, içeriği birinci fıkranın (a) bendinin (1), (2) ve (3) numaralı alt bentlerinde yazılı suçları oluşturan yayınlarla ilgili olarak erişimin engellenmesi kararı, doğrudan Başkanlık tarafından verilir. Bu karar, erişim sağlayıcısına bildirilerek gereğinin derhal yerine getirilmesi istenir "

...force you to function responsibly as a public forum.

I am quite serious and look forward to your urgent reply before I take any action.

Here is another answer to those prejudiced brains who can't even google before they wrongfully accuse other cultures. After reading this it is up to you to decide where the porn problem actually is:

Excerpts from : http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/poland.htm

Factbook on Global Sexual Exploitation

Poland
-----------------------------------------------------------

Trafficking

At least 200 women, including girls under the age of 16, were trafficked by one Polish man to Germany and the Netherlands between 1993 and 1996. (Warsaw Voice, 1996). ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Poland is a destination country for trafficking in Bulgarian women it is a transit country for women from Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus. At least 3,500 Bulgarian prostituted women are in Poland and more than 1,000 from Ukraine and Belarus (source: Polish Deputy Interior Minister). In 1997, police registered 200 cases of attempted smuggling of women to Western brothels. (Piotr Bazylko, "Poland, Ukraine to fight sex slave industry," Reuters, 16 July 1998)

Policy and Law

In Poland, there are no specific laws governing the smuggling of aliens. (Tass, 1995, "Trafficking and Prostitution: The Growing Exploitation of Migrant Women from Central and Eastern Europe," IOM, May 1995)

The governments of Poland and Ukraine agreed on July 16, 1998, to cooperate in fighting prostitution and sex slave trafficking to the West. "The Mafia has got engaged in [the trafficking of women]. We must take preventive measures together," a Ukrainian Interior Ministry representative commented on the agreement. ("Poland, Ukraine to fight sex slave industry," Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty Newsline, Vol. 2, No. 136 Part II, 17 July 1998)

Prostitution

Case

A child prostitution ring, with a computer list of more than 1000 names, including 100 foreign clients, from Europe and Russia, was uncovered in Szczecin in November 1996. It may be the largest child sex crime in the country's history. (BBC, 8 November 1997)

Pornography

The Polish sex industry held its first legal trade fair in September 1998, attracting businessmen, pornographic film stars, and both male and female participants. Spectators at the Warsaw show will be treated to erotic dancing, mock sado-masochistic performances and naked beauty contests for both sexes. They can also browse around stalls offering sex aids, films and books. ("New law allows Polish porn festival," Reuters, 25 September 1998)

A pornography law prohibits the public display of material likely to offend but permits in private everything but erotica involving children, animals and violence in Poland. The law has been in force since 1 September 1998. Publishers have had to remove nudity from the covers of magazines sold in kiosks and wrap non-transparent foil around books that might be sold openly in other European countries. ("New law allows Polish porn festival," Reuters, 25 September 1998)

Between 300,000 to 400,000 hard-core porn magazines are sold a month in Poland, a country of 39 million people. ("New law allows Polish porn festival," Reuters, 25 September 1998)

vineyards,
theres no porno in polish daily newspapers, if you are trying to reply catwomans post. you still can buy them everywhere in special porno magazines, but definetly not in daily news.

Hadi sana kolay gelsin Vineyards.

People have a right to entertain themselves. They do none of the malicious things in your questionable mind. They are just drinking together, singing and having fun. If that was sinful, New York would burn in hell for the night life it has.

You are full of misconceptions. As a matter of fact you shouldn't be taken seriously. You ought thank the likes of Trudy who give you unconditional support no matter how weird you go.

Let me quickly remind you what I am and what I am not:

1-) I am an Atheist. All my life I have never believed in anyone of the religions. I don't have to explain this but you force me.
2-) I respect freedom of believing. If someone believes in something he/she is entitled to that. Because the persons(s) in question are grown ups and it is neither your nor my duty to take this right away from that person. He/she is already very satisfied with the life he/she has.
3-) Your narrow mind rules that I must be in favour of honor killings or female oppression. You should actually ask this question to my wife. I am sure she will give you a good laugh. If a woman complains of the oppression she is
subjected to there is the civil code and law enforcement offices waiting to help her out of that oppression. Indeed, a couple of years ago I saw a man trying to physically harm a woman in the street and I personally stopped the guy and made sure that he was arrested by the police.

If you were my wife, I would either commit suicide right away or wear the hijab on your behalf when you are around.

I don't really want to enter this argument but I do have one explanation FF. Somehow, you made a correlation of turkish women on this site and turkish women on the internet in general. This is not a reasonable assumption in correlations studies. There are certainly a handful of turkish women on this site, but why would you expect turkish women to frequent a site for learning turkish? I have many female turkish friends and I assure you, they all are computer and internet literate. Turkey is certainly a diverse country and the women here cannot be painted with such a broad brush...

Fem, get off it will you? If you don't like Belly Dance, don't do it and don't watch it.

Obbviously your perception of just what is pronography is stricter than most.

According to the definition on wikipedia "pornography" (which is frequently considered a pejorative term) connotes the more direct, blunt or excessive depiction of sexual acts, with little or no artistic value, intended for mere entertainment. The line between the two is often highly subjective."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography

I have never seen such assertive women in my life as the women in Turkey. I hardly think you are a proper spoksperson for them.

As for pornography, in my many trips to Turkey, I have not seen all this pornography you claim to be abundant in Turkey. I guess you must go different places than I.

Just my opinion....I never met a man who found belly dancing particularly sexy! Personally I find it a bit ermmm (literally!) stomach churning .....

I do believe it takes alot of talent to belly dance. However, I prefer pole dancing myself.

"imaginging Shakira as a barn dancing cow....."

wow, that's sexy!!!

This sight does not advocate racism nor is it meant for crusaders to voice their hatred of Islam. Your comments are a gross exaggeration!

Maybe you are used to censorship, but personally I would rather see comments freely expressed without hiding behind nicities so long as they are not attacked personally.

People are expressing their opinions. If you want to see REAL racism or hatred just check comments on YouTube...

Nice to see you all the members of the Chewing Gum Gang together.

Wearing hijab? Tell me a better way to go incognito when she is around?

I have no fantasies about getting married with anyone. I am already married.

Anyone for breakfast?

Thanks judge I know you won't budge no matter what I say. So, will you hang me tomorrow?

By the way with all due respect; we are not a western country why do you expect us to be 100% compatible with you. Sorry, I wouldn't want to be a part of your global village plans and I don't have to live up to your expectations.

You had difficulty understanding the legal reasons but now you are not ashamed of presenting yourself as the angel of democracy.

Oh really, what part of mine will you start with? If you ask me, you deserve my ass.

Elisabeth didn't know you were a part of the gang. Seems I will have to go through an Elisa test if I ever survive your breakfast pleasure.

There is nothing like a good debate to start your day. It goes nicely with coffee. (PS..you can keep your ass)

Sorry, this is going quite nicely but I have to leave now. Catch you later.

I like helloumi cheese at breakfast. Let me eat some before you devour me.

A truly nice gal. She turned me upside down. I've lost faith in everything. So be it, I give up on all of my iron clad values and thoughts and take up hers.

For women that pretend to believe in freedom and equality so much, I find it interesting that you have chosen to demean women of any nationality who choose to dance this way. Don't women have the freedom of choice here? Why don't you attack the stripper industry first in your own countries and when your places are so purified, you may then attack the belly-dancers. I will also point out that I only know the whereabouts of a few places in istanbul that even have belly dancing shows. The interesting part of this is that all the customers are foreigners and all the dancers are russian and molovian!!!

Newpapers and porn.
Show me where pornography is so freely for sale in istanbul. Not at the newspaper kiosks that I have ever seen. I have been all over europe and you can purchase porn as easily as chewing gum. Anyone who thinks porn is so readily available has obviously never been here....

Trudy, I purposally did not single anyone out here. I let the minds of the readers to determine their own guilt. Do you feel a little guilty??

your just toooo good to me....

can I be the waiter at your meetings???

Tea, your full of surpises today. Pole dancing and candy strippers....

I think it is on pole dancing candy stripers?

definitely not on candy stripers.....
(bless their hearts)

and I love it!

Roswitha, here is some new better video of my dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYxNe4jv1-Y

Kemerde
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlTmYHWH6E8

Gidda Hoop my troupe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o48UD3G9wCM