By Melek TUTUNCUK

Armenian Tashnak Party claimed that the eastern and south-eastern provinces of Turkey will come off Turkey, Armenian Yerkir reported. Kiro Manoyan, ARF Bureau’s Hay Dat and Political Affairs Office Director, by naming the Eastern provinces of Turkey as 'Western Armenia', said "Armenians should be ready to take back what belongs to them".


Armenian Tashnak Party also supports the Kurdish separatist terrorism in Turkey.

Almost 20 percent of Azerbaijani territories have been under Armenian occupation for about 16 years. Armenian nationalists also claim the south-eastern part of Georgia as part of motherland Armenia. Armenian Constitution does not recognise Turkey's national borders. As Armenia repeats its irredentist claims over Turkish and other neighbouring territories, Turkey closed its Armenian border to protest Armenian aggressive policies.

Source: JTW, November 26, 2007
source

so what? a tunisian supporting the Turkish state against Armenians???

Should make for an interesting couple of World Cup qualifing matches next September then....

yes, way way the Turkish race face serious threat of extinction!

maybe i'm tunisian but i'm rather turk.

we need some serious opinion

"vai vai poor Turks!" is the most serious opinion u can get. what else do you need?

we lost pretty enough time discussing such topics in vain man! instead how about opening your eyes and making your brain work?

such ideas and deductions should be the results of those passtimes!

Why doesn't Turkey just give the Armenians their land back? At least make them reservations...

cos of walids!

I know in the U.S. we acknowledge the geonicide of Indians. We could do more as a country I feel, however we at least gave them some of their land back. How about Turkey at least doing this for the Armenians after all they were force to flee.

pls, dont take walids initial post as something serious!

I think there is a misunderstanding!
Walid said Turks were under threat of Amenians. "Turks are the ones done wrong." That s why I guess Armenians should return Turks their lands!!! hahah!

hahah!

sound argument too...

just look around in Turkey and you will see millions of PROOF if you arent blind...

walk down an old street, visit a village in anatolia and you will see that mosque was a church once upon a time.

Teas you made me laugh!!! How can you simply "give back" land now? Many of the original inhabitants of land were simply wiped out. And you can't say that your meagre "reservations" are compensation!!!

Most countries are guilty of taking land - do we all give it back now? As simply as that?

The situation was between Ottoman Empires and Armenians...

So Turkish Governmet or todays Turkey cant be resposible for what happened...

apart from this...

It was WORLD WAR you know... not something simple between indians or americans...

Everybody has their borders right now!!

Its so sad to see that still the minds ages ago are still alive! what a lose!

you cannot cut it off simply claiming it was between them and the ottomans? how man of the turks reject the ottoman heritage? most of them are proud of their brave head-cutting ancestors!

not ancetors fathers or grandfathers, and many are still enjoying the land and wealth armenians left behind.

briefly nobody is innocent about the armenian issue. everybody should begin questioning and discussing it.

briefly nobody is innocent about the armenian issue. everybody should begin questioning and discussing it.

heheh! I like the idea elisabeth. let s go then!

walid! where the hell are you? u began everything and ran away!!

Somebody has to start an intelligent dialog..

If it can not be historians and politicians, let it be football players..

Nothing drastic will happen during the games..Dont expect any entertainment, you will be disapponted !

all the nations must give taken land back!!!!!

with one rolling pin
2 rolling pins
many-many rolling pins:

They were never sovereign in the area not for the last 10 centuries anyway..At best they were Vassals..

i wonder about the end of the process though...
giving back should consider the last 25 centuries


and must start with the european cup preliminaries...

My suggestion is, the Armenians need to work fast and match their population to that of Turkia first. They can then try their luck for a second go...

Somehow, I dont think Turks will give them what they want as a Christmas gift..

NOTE they shd strike a good will contract with both Kurds and also with Israelies first...I think those guys may also have ideas on the same area..

Whether or not you should "give back land" seems to depend on your politics!!! Most people agree that Israel should give back land to Palastine - here is a clear "good" and "bad" side we can all see (well....apart from rich American Jews...)

However, in most cases its completely impractical. Most countries in the world have everchanging borders (thanks to man's obsession with "territory"). To "undo" the wrong just creates more wrong. What about people who are born into these disputed areas? What about their citizenship? Do they just become citizens of the new country, or lose their homes?

And how far back to you want to take this? Some countries have no original inhabitants at all left! Generations of people have been born into a country as their home now.

The world is a mess because of MEN and their TERRITORIES! But trying to change them back is not the answer

They wont have their balls much longer, if they stop their current political games and decide take up a real fight.

Best they follow AlphaF's advice...

At this point in time, AlphaF wishes to shed some light into long distant ages of history.

Turks came to Eastern Anatolia in 1071. The land was owned by the Bysantium Empire. Not one Armenian was anywhere in sight, while Seljuk and Byzantium armies were heroically butchering each other.

Turks captured Anatolia from Byzans, I know of not a single Armenian-Turkish confrontation at this stage, where by Armenians can be said to have stood up for their (?) homeland.

Once Turks completed their capture of Anatolia and Ottoman Empire was firmly founded. All of the land controlled by Ottomans were deemed to be Sublime Porte's own personal asset by law. So, who says Armenians owned any land within boundaries of OTTOMAN EMPIRE? ...They were mere tenants of the Sultan.

Believe it or not !

Posted twice sorry

Wrong Martin...

Genocide bussiness is good bussiness...It has kept many a diaspora busy and rich for years...

the turkish geovernment proposed and reproposed an historical research to armenia based on all archives of both parts but armenia declined.

yes as alpha said, the diaspora prefers to promote genocide business,while armenians living in armenia are under an authoritarian regime and their first wish is good life and freedom.

Turkia could have made millions more, only by providing Americans passage of troops thru TURKISH-IRAQ Border.

I really wish I knew more about the history of Turkey/Armenia to comment,let's see what the 'Historians' have to say,but I do recall reading that Atatturk produced a legal document stating that 'no part of Turkish land will ever be given up',I had the copy of this but I can't find it,if anyone else has a copy of these laws it would be interesting to see?

alphaF, allah rahatlik versin.
good night everyone

Turks did not come to Anatolia in 1071. That's a common misconception. They had captured land and settled in Anatolia much much earlier than that. Archeological finds prove the presence of Turkish settlements as early as 6-7th century and speculate about Turkish presence in Anatolia thousands of years ago. 1071 only signifies the beginning of the complete Turkifying of the Anatolian peninsula following Seljuk victory against Byzantine empire at Mazgirt (Malazgirt).

We should point out to the fact that Anatolia had never been entirely occupied by anyone of the preceding civilizations.

That is correct...The pioneers had settled long before the Seljuk's final march...

Hmmm so TC successfully resolves another political issue .
Off to the pub to celebrate then (Alpha is buying...)

Today, JENNIFER LOPEZ dances for AlphaF...)))))))))))))))

That youngster? Is he 18 yet?

Well ! Bring him along anyway...
I will have some Starwars toys for him to play with...while you compete with Lopez )))))))))))))

Good girl !...There is something Turkish about you...)))))))))))))

Didn't know that you smoke. I geniunely hope you will quit soon.

Here is an Armenian song ...For my good friend, the SMOKING AENIGMA )))))))))))))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUc1KJewdVw&feature=related

"The light heartedness" about other people's sufferings is indeed a part of our culture and that's one of the most unfortunate aspects of it.

Nevertheless, you'd usually come accross with that sort of an attitude when talking to common people who don't the first thing about politics.

This light heartedness is called tactfullness in Europe. You are right, probably the only place it has never penetrated into is the US. They didn't need to hide anything when they accidentally invaded Iraq and killed thousands of Iraqis. They did not apoligize to the Japenese for having killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Nor did they feel ashamed when they nuked the land of the poor Bikini islanders. For the rest of the sufferings on record you can refer to the highlights of each decade section in an encyclopedia. There is at least one such incident every ten or so years.

I think you asked for that one Teas

If any culture where to be held accountable for every wrong that was ever done at their hands, I don't think there would be so much finger pointing going on. What price can you put on the innocent souls whose lives are lost in any conflict...is an apology really enough? Will giving someone land or money really be appropriate? Personally, I think that the lesson is to move on from the past and learn from mistakes....not relive them to gain some kind of political advantage. I am not just talking about this particular situation, either. Every country that has ever come to be a world power, every tribal leader that has taken land from another tribe, every religion that has ever attained any kind of status (ect...) is guilty of this. It is time to stop pointing fingers at what country is worse than mine or yours and who did what to whom! This only leads us down that same road that got us here in the first place.

Just my two cents worth...

I certainly agree with most of what you say, Elizabeth.

In this case it's the Armenians who seem to be "hell bent" on pursuing the issue. The Turks have been busy building their country and have not spent that much time on the issue. Now that there has been some possibility of Turkey joining the EU, this issue has come up again.
Let's not forget, it appears the main goal here is land and resources. The particular part of Anatolia some people's eyes are on are particularly wealthy with natural resources, as well as a strategic location.

Talking about Armenians is soooooo last year! We have talked about this over and over....I have tried changing "sides" a few times to spice it up a bit, but it's completely run out of spice now

Can't we argue about something else for a change?

Mother Theresa of Calcutta - Lazy old woman who never did a hard day's work in her life!

(discuss... )

no, its stupid people exaggerate it to the size of elephant, and stupid nationalists take it serious

theresnt any official claims from the armenian gov!
and what else?
poor turks, poor georgians and azeris? the great armenian military will soon take their lands back?

I thought I might throw a couple of historical maps into the brew,I don't really know their provenance,i'm trying to read around the subject but, there are so many views on the subject i don't know where to start

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/oriental_empire.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/ottoman_empire_1481-1683.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ottoman1683_shepherd.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/ottoman_dismemberment.jpg

hope they give a subjective view

For a longer timeline....this site looks like it has a good start. Anatolia

arghhhhh i'm at uni again,those exams those 3 hour exams,i'm a bit scared but at the same time a little excited

Check the role of US in Armenian rebellion against the OTTOMAN Empire...around year 1915.
Ask yourself why.
See if there are similarities between what US did then, and what US is trying to do now...

Remember you tried invading Vietnam too...The fat lady in Iraq did not sing yet...

Operation Armenia in 1915 was not a success either...

Check up what happened in Korea...Had Turks not protected your back, you could hardly recover enough to sit down by now.

And do not think the Japanese forgot the bomb... They will get even, if not militarily - economically.

Uncle George W would be so hurt,How is his foundation for the bereaved going on?

She can have Eastern Turkey, if she is ready to pay the price Turks paid for it...

No use looking for French or American help...They usually desert at critical moments.

The origins and nature of relations between Moslems, Jews, and Christians - who shared Anatolia in peace for centuries is very complex...neither shallow minded greedy neocons of USA today can understand it, nor can the problems that arose later be explained in black and white terms.

I will give you guys a hint (only a hint, no more) Those who would like to understand the relation better, will have to follow the hint.

The founder of Ottoman Empire is Osman Bey.The first capital of the Empire is a small village called Sogut. When Osman Bey sat down in front of his tent, in the just acquired capital of this new Empire, he had two well tried and trusted friends with him. One was called Tekin Alp, the other was named Sari Saltuk (also known as Koca Saltuk).

My research into detailed identities of these two friends, led me to very interesting theories that I can not really prove.

The resarch itself was a lot of fun..but the secrets therein, if any, will be only for those who take the trouble to search them, themselves.

What makes you think Turks do not want to discuss the issue?

Do you know that a fair discussion of the issue, even between historians, is forbidden in some European countries? In France you can go to jail only by saying "There was no Armenian Genocide", even if you are a Professor of History..

If you are, really interested in a fair discussion, pls do...but give us your facts....not hearsay crap.

Tell me Armenians did not enjoy 700 hundred years of peace under Ottoman Empire,
Tell me they were not allowed to practice their religion freely,
Tell me they never donned French and Russian unuforms, while the majority of Turks were busy fighting in Gallipoli,
Tell me the Ottomans had no right to fight the rebels and traitors.
Tell me Armenians killed no Turks,
Tell me Ottomans were dumb enough to fight Armenians at Empire's weakest state, that they could not have eliminated all Armenians easily a 100 years in advance (year 1800 had they an intention of genocide in their minds.
Tell me there were no American missionaries in the area who tried to break the peace among Anatolian people.

Or keep your smart ideas to yourself and let the wounds heal between the two old friends.

Your approach is neither to the benefit of Turks, nor the Armenians in Armenia, nor Armenians living in Turkey (as Turkish citizens). It only serves a bunch of militant Armenian diaspora, who make their living by selling hatred

Our story is 90 years old....Why dont you fight for the rights of Palestinians, with the same bravery, NOW !

Teaschip couldn't quite get what you are hinting at. Are you talking about the car I chose for the journey? Do you have the first idea about what kind of a journey it would be and what sort of terrain the vehicle would move on. That would certainly not be a Hummer show on the asphalt.

I am not asking to stay away from the subject. I am just asking you to be more responsible when making remarks. For my own part, I am extra cautious when talking about this problem. I have never said we did not kill the Armenians nor can I say we killed them all. I don't have proof about the number of Turks killed by the Armenians and vice versa.

How can you reach conclusions so easily when you know that this is one of the hottest political debates used by all sorts of people.

Turkey has 3 main problems since long years on foreign policy . Armenians,Kurds and North Cyprus.And unfertunately still either we couldn't prove our rightfullness on this all problems or some international association don't want to understand us .So seems our great country have to be used live with this problems long years more.And i think noone of country all innocent on their histories,so thats really big shame for international benefit groups to use sadness of history as a politic weapon...

The Turks themselves have confessed in earlier times. Prime Minister Damat Ferid Pasha placed the blame squarely on the Young Turk Party. Mustafa Kemal Pasha {Ataturk} said {in a 1926 interview with a Swiss reporter that} the Young Turks "should be made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred. . . ."

After the war, the Turks held courts-martial to prosecute and convict the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide. Several were sentenced to death.

Correct... The persecuted Turks were not convicted for fighting rebels and destroying them..They were convicted for either negligence of their duties or other misconducts of different kinds- Ottomans fought and killed the rebels; then tried, convicted and executed some of the Ottoman officials who misused their powers, in the process - exactly what a correct sovereign State should do..

today's political borders very clear on world map,so trying to change this borders with some politic games can give big harm to all world family...

Baroness Cox? any relative of FF? The crap sound familiar...

Teaschips1,

Why dont you tell us whether or not some Armenians donned the uniforms of invading French and Russian Armies and took up arms against the Ottoman Armies?

What do you think the Ottomans should have done?

and the main problem that,noone of em don't say their real aims in the crowded politic and historic arguments..

Obviously, a very naughty girl !

She only reads propaganda...She does not even read my posts..))))))))))))))

I think I shall go back and watch Jennifer Lopez, again ))))))))))

which is so much better then a cultivated racial infusion )))))

where am i?

FF, do you have any proplems understanding what you read ?....I have said in this forum, not less then 3 times, that being a half breed, half blood or half cast whatever...is not looked down upon in Eastern societies. It is just another dirty and inhuman Western habbit..

Handsome, what are you doing?! I try hard not to step into crap and you're posting it right in front of my eyes!?

I don't care about her all that much. Have I earned any bonus points? My favourite female celebs are:

Michelle Pfeiffer
Jessica Lange
Isabella Adjani

Isn't she a belter,there i was thinking that catwoman and J.LO were the same person I won't sleep tonight

Look what you guys are up to, as soon as I step away for a few minutes...

Is this thread turning into "Grumpy Old Lecherous Men" thread?

Jennifer Lopez is Puerto Rican.....as such she carries with in her the mix of cultures that make up that island.

Culture of Puerto Rico

Puerto Rican culture is a mix of four cultures, African (from the slaves), Taíno (Amerindians), Spanish, and, more recently, North American. From Africans, the Puerto Ricans have obtained the "bomba and plena", a type of music and dance including percussions and maracas. From the Amerindians (Tainos), Puerto Ricans have kept many names for their municipalities, foods, musical instruments like the güiro and maracas. Many words and other objects have originated from their localized language. From the Spanish they got the Spanish language, the Catholic religion and the vast majority of their cultural and moral values and traditions. From the United States they received the English language, the university system -- the University of Puerto Rico was founded in 1903, --five years after the island became part of the United States -- and a variety of hybrid cultural forms that developed between the United States mainland and the island of Puerto Rico.

The official symbols of Puerto Rico are the bird, Reinita mora (Spindalis portoricensis), the flower, Flor de Maga (Thespesia grandiflora), and the tree, Ceiba or Kapok (Ceiba pentandra). The unofficial favorite amphibian is the Coquí (Eleutherodactylus coqui). Another popular symbol of Puerto Rico is the "jíbaro" , the "countryman" .

And yes, I think she is beautiful, and evidently millions of other do to. I think some here just may be jealous.

I second Alameda ...Let me go have another good look at her (JL)...))))))))))))))

Money? She would be worth more than some Western Queens, even when she is in rags...

Omega, J has been divorced a number of times.. This would be against your firm beliefs...

Ouhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh