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Ýlker Baþbuð
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10.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Oct 2008 Wed 04:25 pm

 

Quoting mltm

The position of the army in the Republic of Turkey is particular since it has social duties given by the constitution as well, and I dont think that in any other europen country there is a active threat as big as PKK in their soils.

And secondly the culture of democracy is not very rooted in Turkey, so in order that we make Turkey as democratic as some other european countries, we need much more time and we should not let it be imposed to us by external forces.

And lastly I dont think that currently Turkey is very far away from being a democratic country since AKP has been in power since 2002 despite the fact that their many acts and opinions contradict with the armys.

 

But constitutions were made by the army itself.

11.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 16 Oct 2008 Thu 07:45 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

It seems like we have still long way to go on the road to democracy.

Anyway, there are some news specially from the newspaper  taraf about the latest attack where 17 soldiers died.

They are showing the documents and saying that the army KNEW the latest attack up to every single detail.

The names of the terrorists, their location, their weapons even the number of mules (which were used  for transporting the weapons) and their locations. (Even there was an unmanned aerial vehicle locked into the area during the attack)

I wonder what the army will say about this..

(The same newspaper, proved that the army new daglica attack in advance which was a year ago and resulted the army having the permission to enter northern Iraq)

 

 Those claims of the newspaper taraf were shown as they were lie... On the news it was showing that, the images used in the news were with wrong dates or in different coordinates than aktutun....

 

just for giving information

12.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 16 Oct 2008 Thu 08:13 pm

 

Quoting libralady

Can this be moved to Turkey section please?

 

 Done

13.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 16 Oct 2008 Thu 08:16 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris

And to me there is no bad thing about being in contact with the political parties and civillian societies...

 

Quoting TheAenigma

 Do you really believe this?  You seriously see nothing wrong with armed forces getting involved politically?

 

 I agree with Aenigma.

 

But if it is too hard for Turkey to switch from system quickly, I don´t think it is bad that army goes in conversation with the political parties about the sollution. This might be a good transfer-phase for a time when the army is no longer the second government (if not the first). 

14.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 16 Oct 2008 Thu 08:18 pm

 

Quoting mltm

The position of the army in the Republic of Turkey is particular since it has social duties given by the constitution as well

 

 Sounds like an immediate need for a change in the constitution!!

15.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 16 Oct 2008 Thu 09:38 pm

 

Quoting Deli_kizin

Quoting SuiGeneris

And to me there is no bad thing about being in contact with the political parties and civillian societies...

 

Quoting TheAenigma

 Do you really believe this?  You seriously see nothing wrong with armed forces getting involved politically?

 

 I agree with Aenigma.

 

But if it is too hard for Turkey to switch from system quickly, I don´t think it is bad that army goes in conversation with the political parties about the sollution. This might be a good transfer-phase for a time when the army is no longer the second government (if not the first). 

 

You do not understand the plot... All the powers that has something to do with governing a country... has to be in touch with eachother for a better result... and this guy i am mentioning is doing this... and for the first time in country...

 

But you are always eager to burn the all jungle with misunderstandings and misleading the words... as army has a move in politics... this is not happening right now... just get another sattelite reciever and watch some turkish channels really, you would improve your turkish too...

 

16.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 16 Oct 2008 Thu 10:13 pm

 

Quoting SuiGeneris

-

 

 ´And to me there is no bad thing about being in contact with the political parties and civillian societies...´   - This is what you said literally. All Aenigma and I said, is that we think it is bad if ARMY is involved politically in the governing of the country. I did not say that this is the case in TR, I said this statement as a consequence of what you think. And I said I think that is a bad consequence.

 

And I find your second paragraph very patronising. How do you know I do not watch Turkish television?  I did not ´mislead´ your words or misunderstand what you said (as a matter of fact, I said I agree with you till an extent that I think it should be a transition-phase and not a common base for governing).

 

And you contradict yourself: you say ´army has not a move in politics´ but you also say ´All the powers that has something to do with governing a country... has to be in touch with eachother for a better result´. Which means that, if army has to talk with government, it does have a move in politics.

 

I agree that all the powers that have something to do with governing a country have to be in touch with eachother. I jsut dont believe that the army should be one of those powers.

 

Next time I´d appreciate if you read my words more carefully (then you would see I partially agree with you and never said that army has direct influence on politics, and you would see I see this as a solution, not as a ´fire of misunderstanding´ ), instead of ´advicing´ me I should watch more Turkish news and accusing me of eagerness to burn the jungle.

17.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 16 Oct 2008 Thu 10:38 pm

 

Quoting Deli_kizin

 ´And to me there is no bad thing about being in contact with the political parties and civillian societies...´   - This is what you said literally. All Aenigma and I said, is that we think it is bad if ARMY is involved politically in the governing of the country. I did not say that this is the case in TR, I said this statement as a consequence of what you think. And I said I think that is a bad consequence.

 

And I find your second paragraph very patronising. How do you know I do not watch Turkish television?  I did not ´mislead´ your words or misunderstand what you said (as a matter of fact, I said I agree with you till an extent that I think it should be a transition-phase and not a common base for governing).

 

And you contradict yourself: you say ´army has not a move in politics´ but you also say ´All the powers that has something to do with governing a country... has to be in touch with eachother for a better result´. Which means that, if army has to talk with government, it does have a move in politics.

 

I agree that all the powers that have something to do with governing a country have to be in touch with eachother. I jsut dont believe that the army should be one of those powers.

 

Next time I´d appreciate if you read my words more carefully (then you would see I partially agree with you and never said that army has direct influence on politics, and you would see I see this as a solution, not as a ´fire of misunderstanding´ ), instead of ´advicing´ me I should watch more Turkish news and accusing me of eagerness to burn the jungle.

 

 

Every single country has it is own ways of governing... these depends on their geographical, social, economical and political conditions... so for Turkey army has a big role in defending, such a large geography and a lot of young population, uneducated young population which can be provocated very easily... The persons chosen to the head of the army usually very well educated and experienced people... so i see no bad with talking and being in touch with them... dont see army as a monster please...

 

For governing and has an influence on going of the laws etc... There should be an army or an officer in the council... is there any? nope...

 

I said watch news because, if you had watched what Ilker Basbug said so far, he was just minding his own business... and working ALSO on the social part (Kurdish problem you call) of solving PKK

 

In a conversation you shouldnt even bother to be adviced you cannot know anything all the time... Also i had quoted two persons, you were not the one to be offended there

 

18.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 17 Oct 2008 Fri 12:12 am

 

Quoting SuiGeneris

Every single country has it is own ways of governing... these depends on their geographical, social, economical and political conditions... so for Turkey army has a big role in defending, such a large geography and a lot of young population, uneducated young population which can be provocated very easily... The persons chosen to the head of the army usually very well educated and experienced people... so i see no bad with talking and being in touch with them... dont see army as a monster please...

 

For governing and has an influence on going of the laws etc... There should be an army or an officer in the council... is there any? nope...

 

I said watch news because, if you had watched what Ilker Basbug said so far, he was just minding his own business... and working ALSO on the social part (Kurdish problem you call) of solving PKK

 

In a conversation you shouldnt even bother to be adviced you cannot know anything all the time... Also i had quoted two persons, you were not the one to be offended there

 

That is what we have been listening all those years..´We are special; our special geographical position is not letting us to have full democracy, it is not the time for democracy now ..´

The entire life of republic the army has dominated the politics.

Just now, just right at the moment the army is IN POLITICS..

The army sees itself de facto /ultimate ruler of the country. Just a few days ago, the head of the army said that ´he would oppose the amnesty´..(Then find a political solution to this ugly war!!)

A year ago, they publicly threatened the ruling party in a decleration on their website (it is called e muhtira). 5 generals sit with the goverment ministers in meetings ..the body is called MGK. They dont allow anybody to check their budget. They establish think thanks about how to keep the media in line. They generated JITEM which killed many many people. Base of ergenekon is the army.

in 1997 they almost forcefully removed refah party with MGK. in 1980, 1971, 1960 they staged c detats..

And how can anybody say that the army is not in politics?

And how can anybody put the army and the democracy in the same line complimenting eachother?

 

19.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 17 Oct 2008 Fri 12:53 am

More info about the latest attack:

 

Legal action has been taken against leaked reports of the deadly attack by the outlawed Kurdistan Workers´ Party, or PKK, the chief of general staff announced yesterday.

  The reports accused the military of neglecting intelligence it received prior to the attack.  

  "We have launched legal action against those who leaked secret information and those who have used it," a visibly angry Gen. Ýlker Baþbuð said in televised remarks from the northwestern city of Balýkesir.

  ....

  Taraf said the military received intelligence, as early as a month before the attack, that about 80 PKK members were moving toward Hakkari from northern Iraq.

  A report five days before the attack warned the PKK group were bringing anti-aircraft artillery with them, while intelligence passed on by the United States a few hours before the assault showed the militants setting up their weapons and mining the area just across from the outpost.

  Taraf´s report came as other newspapers questioned whether a lack of proper intelligence was to blame for the attack.

  "Those who still portray the actions of the terrorist organization as successful will be responsible for every drop of blood shed now and to be shed in the future," Baþbuð said yesterday.

  He said the military was carrying out an internal investigation into the attack and would announce the result once it was completed.

  "The Turkish armed forces have full self-confidence," he said.

 

 

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=117632

20.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 17 Oct 2008 Fri 01:02 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

A year ago, they publicly threatened the ruling party in a decleration on their website (it is called e muhtira). 

Yes we learnt about this elektronik muhtýrasý, it took me ages to understand what the word meant :S 

 

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