He is the new president of Turkish Army, but he is different than the others...

I was watching a program called Neden? (Why?) in the turkish channel NTV, the program is represented by one of the best -according to me- Turkish writers Can Dündar...

In that program, there was a video file about Ýlker Baþbuð, his speeches, what he has done so far...

he is very brave, in one speech he says: "You need to decrease or end the participation to the mountains, and what the government do to decrease it now is nothing."

Which impressed me very much...

As a summary, he is in the way of "communication", he has gone to all political parties to have information about how they think and their way of solution... He also not only talks with politicians and soldiers, he is in contact with civillians... He is the first one who has invited civil experts about solving and analysing social problems...

I started to feel that something good is going to be started... i hope it continues...

I think one of the biggest problems in Turkey is that the army acts as if it is a political party.

You can not find these type of incidents in any developed countries. I mean, the head of the army does not go and discuss politics with the parties, they dont publicly interfere with the politics.

It seems like we have still long way to go on the road to democracy.

Anyway, there are some news specially from the newspaper  taraf about the latest attack where 17 soldiers died.

They are showing the documents and saying that the army KNEW the latest attack up to every single detail.

The names of the terrorists, their location, their weapons even the number of mules (which were used  for transporting the weapons) and their locations. (Even there was an unmanned aerial vehicle locked into the area during the attack)

I wonder what the army will say about this..

(The same newspaper, proved that the army new daglica attack in advance which was a year ago and resulted the army having the permission to enter northern Iraq)

 The thing i was specifying here was the radical movements of the new president of Army, rather than the others were doing...

And to me there is no bad thing about being in contact with the political parties and civillian societies...

From what i wrote, it is very unfortunate that you understand army has an effect on the politics... which is not true for now... ofcourse what you say is generally true... but these powers has to be linked to eachother and have to give and take informations for a better future...

What taraf wrote was on the news also yesterday evening... So if army knew that there would be an attack, i can only say that, there was some people from army or has an effect to army from outside that said "no" to give any response...

I only state these things in also the other article i posted, The PKK doesnt have kurdish problem only... but this sounds to you as only a "conspiracy theory"...

 Do you really believe this?  You seriously see nothing wrong with armed forces getting involved politically?

Can this be moved to Turkey section please?

 It is not involved politically... everybody cannot see everything in the correct way... why do you create different meanings...

So that having meetings wouldnt be bad... I dont say army should have a force in political decisions but in some cases you need their ideas aswell...

And let me remind you that in any of those democratic countries there is not currently a problem of a war or a terrorist organization so active in their territories.

I dont think it is a winning argument.

There have been many terrorist organizations in developed countries (uk, germany, italy, spain etc)

And when you check the history of our republic, you will see that the army has been in politics all the time. 

Do i need to give examples?

The position of the army in the Republic of Turkey is particular since it has social duties given by the constitution as well, and I dont think that in any other europen country there is a active threat as big as PKK in their soils.

And secondly the culture of democracy is not very rooted in Turkey, so in order that we make Turkey as democratic as some other european countries, we need much more time and we should not let it be imposed to us by external forces.

And lastly I dont think that currently Turkey is very far away from being a democratic country since AKP has been in power since 2002 despite the fact that their many acts and opinions contradict with the armys.

But constitutions were made by the army itself.

 Those claims of the newspaper taraf were shown as they were lie... On the news it was showing that, the images used in the news were with wrong dates or in different coordinates than aktutun....

just for giving information

 Done

 I agree with Aenigma.

But if it is too hard for Turkey to switch from system quickly, I don´t think it is bad that army goes in conversation with the political parties about the sollution. This might be a good transfer-phase for a time when the army is no longer the second government (if not the first). 

 Sounds like an immediate need for a change in the constitution!!

You do not understand the plot... All the powers that has something to do with governing a country... has to be in touch with eachother for a better result... and this guy i am mentioning is doing this... and for the first time in country...

But you are always eager to burn the all jungle with misunderstandings and misleading the words... as army has a move in politics... this is not happening right now... just get another sattelite reciever and watch some turkish channels really, you would improve your turkish too...

 ´And to me there is no bad thing about being in contact with the political parties and civillian societies...´   - This is what you said literally. All Aenigma and I said, is that we think it is bad if ARMY is involved politically in the governing of the country. I did not say that this is the case in TR, I said this statement as a consequence of what you think. And I said I think that is a bad consequence.

And I find your second paragraph very patronising. How do you know I do not watch Turkish television?  I did not ´mislead´ your words or misunderstand what you said (as a matter of fact, I said I agree with you till an extent that I think it should be a transition-phase and not a common base for governing).

And you contradict yourself: you say ´army has not a move in politics´ but you also say ´All the powers that has something to do with governing a country... has to be in touch with eachother for a better result´. Which means that, if army has to talk with government, it does have a move in politics.

I agree that all the powers that have something to do with governing a country have to be in touch with eachother. I jsut dont believe that the army should be one of those powers.

Next time I´d appreciate if you read my words more carefully (then you would see I partially agree with you and never said that army has direct influence on politics, and you would see I see this as a solution, not as a ´fire of misunderstanding´ ), instead of ´advicing´ me I should watch more Turkish news and accusing me of eagerness to burn the jungle.

Every single country has it is own ways of governing... these depends on their geographical, social, economical and political conditions... so for Turkey army has a big role in defending, such a large geography and a lot of young population, uneducated young population which can be provocated very easily... The persons chosen to the head of the army usually very well educated and experienced people... so i see no bad with talking and being in touch with them... dont see army as a monster please...

For governing and has an influence on going of the laws etc... There should be an army or an officer in the council... is there any? nope...

I said watch news because, if you had watched what Ilker Basbug said so far, he was just minding his own business... and working ALSO on the social part (Kurdish problem you call) of solving PKK

In a conversation you shouldnt even bother to be adviced you cannot know anything all the time... Also i had quoted two persons, you were not the one to be offended there

That is what we have been listening all those years..´We are special; our special geographical position is not letting us to have full democracy, it is not the time for democracy now ..´

The entire life of republic the army has dominated the politics.

Just now, just right at the moment the army is IN POLITICS..

The army sees itself de facto /ultimate ruler of the country. Just a few days ago, the head of the army said that ´he would oppose the amnesty´..(Then find a political solution to this ugly war!!)

A year ago, they publicly threatened the ruling party in a decleration on their website (it is called e muhtira). 5 generals sit with the goverment ministers in meetings ..the body is called MGK. They dont allow anybody to check their budget. They establish think thanks about how to keep the media in line. They generated JITEM which killed many many people. Base of ergenekon is the army.

in 1997 they almost forcefully removed refah party with MGK. in 1980, 1971, 1960 they staged c detats..

And how can anybody say that the army is not in politics?

And how can anybody put the army and the democracy in the same line complimenting eachother?

More info about the latest attack:

Legal action has been taken against leaked reports of the deadly attack by the outlawed Kurdistan Workers´ Party, or PKK, the chief of general staff announced yesterday.

  The reports accused the military of neglecting intelligence it received prior to the attack.  

  "We have launched legal action against those who leaked secret information and those who have used it," a visibly angry Gen. Ýlker Baþbuð said in televised remarks from the northwestern city of Balýkesir.

  ....

  Taraf said the military received intelligence, as early as a month before the attack, that about 80 PKK members were moving toward Hakkari from northern Iraq.

  A report five days before the attack warned the PKK group were bringing anti-aircraft artillery with them, while intelligence passed on by the United States a few hours before the assault showed the militants setting up their weapons and mining the area just across from the outpost.

  Taraf´s report came as other newspapers questioned whether a lack of proper intelligence was to blame for the attack.

  "Those who still portray the actions of the terrorist organization as successful will be responsible for every drop of blood shed now and to be shed in the future," Baþbuð said yesterday.

  He said the military was carrying out an internal investigation into the attack and would announce the result once it was completed.

  "The Turkish armed forces have full self-confidence," he said.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=117632

Yes we learnt about this elektronik muhtýrasý, it took me ages to understand what the word meant :S 

That`s not completely untrue. Just look at whom turkey neighbors, and you can see all the f...ed up states you could think of around the country. If Turkey was a isolated country like Australia, everything would be different.

Yes, Basbug Pasha is very brave because he thinks that no one can question the Army. he also thinks that he can silence the media´s freedom of speech. That is why Turkey is a modern (!) country. We will be more happy if Turkish army spends more time in securing Turkish borders against PKK terrorists besides interfering in politics.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=156065

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=156068

We will be more happy if our PM did not say "PKK is not our enemy" and we will be more happy if our government compromised with the army instead of fully compomising the legal PKK Barzani ... They dont write these news in that newspaper, do they?

well..if you look at iraq iran etc you may think we are the rising star there..

But when you look at greece even bulgaria you will see we still have long way to go.

I have to remind you that 30 years ago, we were almost same as greece (or spain) and certainly better than bulgaria as far as the democracy is concerned..(and please check the recent history of Greece about their  military´s position and how they managed to get rid of it)

But anyway..do you think we should just keep thinking that ´ah..if only if we did not have these neighbours´?

Had this Arif Verimli and other respected psychiatrists examined the mental situation of our dearest PM after the Deniz Feneri Fraud while he was blackmailing the whole media?

There were little terrorist actions during a regular period of years before AKP had come to power, we are very grateful they are very democratic and humanistic that they unvalidated the terror law and they demobilized the professional soldiers who were very experienced in terror depending on the EU orders. And we come to this point again, i think these are so far our good days...

Unfortunately cannot be changed, a change in those means changing the regime that leads a civil war.

Btw do not forget, Turkish Army brought into being this country and established the Republic so of course they made these laws of constitution, like it or not...

 are we Talking about Thailand ruled by a military junta, or Turkey?

it seems like you`ve never been to Bulgaria,

and at least these countries don`t have terrorist exporting neighbors, a big difference.

You DO wholeheartedly  believe what you are told by the army..dont you?

I have explained here hundred times.  It is not much to do with our neighbours.

We ARE genereting those terrorists in Turkey by not providing an enough democratic environment where people will not require to take arms.

And almost every democratic step is blocked by the ruling class with the reasons we have been talking above: ´Our geographical and strategical position, look at our neighbours, not now´ etc.

This is a vicious circle. Dog chasing its tail..

Our problem is  internal. We should stop looking for excuses.

don`t tell me what I believe. what the terrorists want is not democracy but partition, don`t fool yourself. these terrorists are represented even in the parliement, so what  democratic rights are you asking for? can you imagine al qaida`s being represented in the American house of representatives? you can`t deny the fact that the North Iraq is a sanctuary for the terrorists under the protection of America.

Talking about Kurdish problem as just ´they are terrorists and they are asking for seperation´ is ignoring the facts since the beginning the republic. We are talking about a problem at least 100 years old and our 100 years of wrong doings  here.

As long as you are not a fully democratic state which we still are not, you wont be able to stop people joining to those terrorists. 

Dont tell me that kurds dont have any discrimitation in Turkey and free to use their language and free to take anybody into to the court when somebody insults them etc etc.

They are represented in  the parliment? do you have any idea how many kurdish party have been closed in last 20 years? do you know the court case against the latest one?

How many of their mps gone into jail for how many years?

I think this article will answer you about "why democracy is necessary for our kurdish problem" and why this problem will continue without it and as long as we avoid the real problem. 

So, here is the summary: In this country, you cannot say “Happy Bayram” in Kurdish. But you can say “cleanse the Kurdish microbes” in Turkish.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=116666

so how should we refer to these terrorists if not as "terrorists"? this reminds me of a quote from Can Yucel, I`m sure you know what I`m talking about. what has happened in the past is not my concern, but if you`re so obsesssed with the past, let me tell you this, in the past the Kurds genocided my ancestors and got revarded for this genocide with special autonomous rights by the ottoman empire. that`s the reason why you`re referring to the "Kurdish problem" as a problem of the republic but not the Ottoman empire. This not a problem of the past 100 years but 500 years, and it dates back to the time when the shiate Turks got wiped out from Anatolia by the Sunni Kurds. ever wondered how Turkey became a sunni dominated country wheras the Turks of Azerbaijan are still Shiate? You will never be able to read about this stuff in taraf unfortunately.

coming back to the present, pkk is represented in the parliement, and the Kurds can speak their language or whatever language they want to speak.

I was not trying to say that we have to call terrorists with different names.

All I was trying to say was there is a ´Kurdish problem´ within our borders.

Reducing the entire problem into ´no. it is just terrorism´ is a  MISTAKE.

yes..Speaking kurdish  is officially not a criminal act right now by the law...

But it has been like ´just changing the law for the sake of changing it´ really..

But I would agree, it is a  step for the right direction. But it does not change the fact that ´16 kurdish news papers were closed 39 times´ since 2006. 

It is almost like adding a new line into constitution and saying that ´turture is not allowed´ but in practice as habits dont die easily, torture still continues..

As far as representation in the parliament, any idea how many kurdish mps sent to jail in last 20 years? how many years did they serve? how many party were closed? the closure court case against the last one?